You know, you're going to look pretty stupid if this card turns out to be rubbish. You could, you know, actually play the card or at least see the rest of the set before calling for bans. If only it were so easy to evaluate cards as so many people here seem to think it is.
The only way this becomes rubbish is if there is a massive amount of efficient artifact hate. Like a 3-drop 2/3 that destroys target artifact etb. And even then I'm not sure because Spell Queller hits that. Given that they usually don't kill the main mechanic in the same block they introduce it (which is why there is no graveyard removal I can think of in SOI) I doubt that's likely.
Even if it appears in no other decks except Spirits - it will be used in spirits because it literally works with every card they have, and spirits will be the only viable deck in Standard.
But some say it's 'too slow'. It's not to slow for black-based or colourless-based control. You know, the kind that runs Thought-Knot Seer (and may even add Gonti, Lord of Luxury for added value). Getting two thought-knots back to back usually means game over. Now they just need one.
Well, the Emerge deck can just start running Mockery of Nature. Spell Queller can't hit that. And a ramp deck could run World Breaker. Spell Queller can't hit that.
And if the Spell Queller is killed, then you get to kill the Panharmonicon.
Even if you flicker it, there's only so many spells you can get rid of with Spell Queller.
I foresee busted edh moments with this. It's one of those cards that go for about 25 or 30 cents and then just one or two years later it's suddenly 5 bucks. I'm grabbing every single one of these for cheap this time.
$50 card. Unless it gets banned. Every top tier Standard deck wants this. CoCo was limited to one niche archetype - this breaks pretty much every top deck.
I foresee busted edh moments with this. It's one of those cards that go for about 25 or 30 cents and then just one or two years later it's suddenly 5 bucks. I'm grabbing every single one of these for cheap this time.
$50 card. Unless it gets banned. Every top tier Standard deck wants this. CoCo was limited to one niche archetype - this breaks pretty much every top deck.
I suspect all the top decks will be running it until it is banned.
I don't even think this is Standard playable. It's expensive and a super narrow effect.
Ban talk is silly.
Actually I'm considering this was overrated
I think EDH is the best choice for this not so much for the other formats.
And also there are a ton of know artifact removers in commander.
I mean yes Sundering titan might see play in colorless edh decks but only if this is on the field
If Panharmonicon is on the field remove 4 to 10 lands from one player. (For 10'thats a 5 color deck you used it on.)
[quote from="GW2GuruUser7586 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/754408-panharmonicon?comment=78"]Even if you flicker it, there's only so many spells you can get rid of with Spell Queller.
Yes, 1 + the number of Panharmonicons they control.
Horribly awry kills World Breaker. Summary Dismissal negates both.
I don't even think this is Standard playable. It's expensive and a super narrow effect.
Interesting definition of 'super narrow' - make all the creatures that are already borderline broken in Standard even better? I wonder if this is the same conversation people had about Collected Company back in the day (maybe I'll dig through the old posts.) For what it's worth - it's also the same CMC as Collected Company.
edit - yup;
* This is probably a little too gimmicky, but this card could be amazing with cards like Myr Superion, Epochrasite, Skaab Ruinator, and Talara's Battalion or similar cards.
Two posts later: "The price just shot up to $15"
Yes, 1 + the number of Panharmonicons they control.
Horribly awry kills World Breaker. Summary Dismissal negates both.
You might want to re-read Horribly Awry?
And Summary Dismissal is literally the only spell in standard at the moment that can stop a World Breaker trigger, so I mean...if they got it, they got it.
And then you get World Breaker back...
EDIT: Gah, should take my own advice sometimes. I forgot that Dismisal is exile too.
[quote from="GW2GuruUser7586 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/754408-panharmonicon?comment=78"]Even if you flicker it, there's only so many spells you can get rid of with Spell Queller.
Yes, 1 + the number of Panharmonicons they control.
Horribly awry kills World Breaker. Summary Dismissal negates both.
I don't even think this is Standard playable. It's expensive and a super narrow effect.
Interesting definition of 'super narrow' - make all the creatures that are already borderline broken in Standard even better? I wonder if this is the same conversation people had about Collected Company back in the day (maybe I'll dig through the old posts.) For what it's worth - it's also the same CMC as Collected Company.
edit - yup;
* This is probably a little too gimmicky, but this card could be amazing with cards like Myr Superion, Epochrasite, Skaab Ruinator, and Talara's Battalion or similar cards.
Two posts later: "The price just shot up to $15"
Collected Company cheats on mana and is positive card advantage. It has a huge board impact. This does none of those things for four mana.
The only format this is nuts in is Commander. In Standard this is a 4 mana card thar does nothing the turn it comes down, only castable in main phase and will have to deal with lots of targeted hate.
So GW2Guru, for clarification, you're gonna play this and have protection for it on the same turn? So you're gonna wait until turn 7 to play it?
Spirits does on turn 4. Mausoleum Wanderer. Even if they don't - it forces the opponent to answer it THAT TURN. Spirits is already one of the best decks and if their opponent has to use their turn next turn to answer it, no big deal. If they don't answer it that turn they won't be able to.
Spirits will probably cast this on turn 5 (or whenever they have 5 mana).
Turn 1: Wanderer
Turn 2: RattleChains
Turn 5: Panharmonicon with either a wanderer they can flash in or Essence Flux on the rattlechains. The first wanderer will get +1/+1 twice (because of panharmonicon) and it becomes a Mana Leak for U (This is assuming a removal, not a counterspell, otherwise it's only 2 more)
You might want to re-read Horribly Awry?
I always forget Horribly Awry is 4 or less. I also missed that World breaker was when cast So yes, World Breaker and the Emerge Eldrazi you mentioned (forget the name) are two cards that handle it that are viable (World Breaker is currently in use in sideboards and the Emerge card you mentioned is good enough to make maindeck if enough decks play artifacts).
Spirits will probably cast this on turn 5 (or whenever they have 5 mana).
Turn 1: Wanderer
Turn 2: RattleChains
Turn 5: Panharmonicon with either a wanderer they can flash in or Essence Flux on the rattlechains. The first wanderer will get +1/+1 twice (because of panharmonicon) and it becomes a Mana Leak for U (This is assuming a removal, not a counterspell, otherwise it's only 2 more)
Can any other deck do that? If not, then its only viable in spirits. Which means that it's only good in one deck. So it definitely won't be ban worthy.
That's a lot of Wanderers, they can only play 4, so in your scenario, they're gonna have a Rattlechains, Panharmonicon, and two Wanderers, or a Wanderer and an Essence Flux (which isn't played that much, from what I can find). That's 4 cards out of 11 cards, that's pretty lucky if you ask me.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, were you playing Standard the last time they banned anything in it? Because the last time anything was banned was Jace the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic, when Cawblade was like 70% of the meta. The time before that it was artifact lands, Arcbound Ravager, and Disciple of the Vault. Broken things that are still banned in Modern, and were banned in Extended.
Can any other deck do that? If not, then its only viable in spirits. Which means that it's only good in one deck. So it definitely won't be ban worthy.
Yes, as I said - if it only sees play in one deck then not so much. However I think it will see play in many more decks - and most decks will be playing it AND have answers to it.
That's a lot of Wanderers, they can only play 4, so in your scenario, they're gonna have a Rattlechains, Panharmonicon, and two Wanderers, or a Wanderer and an Essence Flux (which isn't played that much, from what I can find). That's 4 cards out of 11 cards, that's pretty lucky if you ask me.
Any other spirit could replace rattlechains with the essence flux. They could protect it other ways on turn 6. However, like I said, if I'm on the play I'd probably cast it turn 4 and force them to either have the answer that turn or be in for a world of hurt. I'm totally fine if I play it and they are forced to use their turn to answer it - because on the times they can't it'll be overwhelming.
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This card isn't coco. Will never be coco. And will be nowhere near as "oppressive" as people think. Don't expect a standard ban. And as for edh. Ad naseum is still unbanned, this is less "oppressive"than storm. Don't expect a ban. If it gets banned in either I will stop playing both formats, if this is the caliber of card wizards and edh committee think is banable then they will be garbage formats in no time
Hangarback Walker, endless one and workhorse I believe they don't get double the counters correct?
(I'm asking because of the enters the battlefield with X counters)
Hangarback Walker, endless one and workhorse I believe they don't get double the counters correct?
(I'm asking because of the enters the battlefield with X counters)
'comes into play with' - it's a replacement effect (and I'm not even sure it's that) not a trigger.
Lets put it this way - if it was a trigger it would go on the stack and the game-state would then see there's a 0/0 creature and put it in the graveyard.
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Hangarback Walker, endless one and workhorse I believe they don't get double the counters correct?
(I'm asking because of the enters the battlefield with X counters)
'comes into play with' - it's a replacement effect (and I'm not even sure it's that) not a trigger.
Lets put it this way - if it was a trigger it would go on the stack and the game-state would then see there's a 0/0 creature and put it in the graveyard.
Well this seems really good in a deck designed to abuse it. Even in standard this makes any fabricate and most energy related abilities double up.
I wont even bother to poke my head into the rabbit hole that is EDH but needless to say anyone playing Brago, Kalemie or last years Ezuri is probably melting at the moment.
Edit: Helps when I read the card properly, I wrongly thought you could copy Newlamog attack trigger.
Well this seems Nuts. Even in standard this makes any fabricate and most energy related abilities double up and what about big eldrazi like Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger?
I wont even bother to poke my head into the rabbit hole that is EDH but needless to say anyone playing Brago, Kalemie or last years Ezuri is probably melting at the moment.
Well this seems Nuts. Even in standard this makes any fabricate and most energy related abilities double up and what about big eldrazi like Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger?
I wont even bother to poke my head into the rabbit hole that is EDH but needless to say anyone playing Brago, Kalemie or last years Ezuri is probably melting at the moment.
EDIT: Though that would require them having 2 cards in exile. Still, getting a 3/2 and killing 2 medium sized creatures or 1 large creature? Pretty decent.
Say you have a lumengrid sentinel in play. You cast this card and it resolves. Does the sentinel's ability trigger twice? How does the timing work in that regard?
Say you have a lumengrid sentinel in play. You cast this card and it resolves. Does the sentinel's ability trigger twice? How does the timing work in that regard?
Yes. It is a permanent you control that is triggered by an artifact entering play. The timing is the same as the original trigger - both go on the stack at the same time and then you place them on the stack in any order before anyone receives priority.
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I mean there's a ton of artifact removal outside standard
This is one of those cards they will want to destory very fast like Eye of Ugin.
Well, the Emerge deck can just start running Mockery of Nature. Spell Queller can't hit that. And a ramp deck could run World Breaker. Spell Queller can't hit that.
And if the Spell Queller is killed, then you get to kill the Panharmonicon.
Even if you flicker it, there's only so many spells you can get rid of with Spell Queller.
I don't even think this is Standard playable. It's expensive and a super narrow effect.
Ban talk is silly.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Actually I'm considering this was overrated
I think EDH is the best choice for this not so much for the other formats.
And also there are a ton of know artifact removers in commander.
I mean yes Sundering titan might see play in colorless edh decks but only if this is on the field
If Panharmonicon is on the field remove 4 to 10 lands from one player. (For 10'thats a 5 color deck you used it on.)
Yes, 1 + the number of Panharmonicons they control.
Horribly awry kills World Breaker. Summary Dismissal negates both.
Interesting definition of 'super narrow' - make all the creatures that are already borderline broken in Standard even better? I wonder if this is the same conversation people had about Collected Company back in the day (maybe I'll dig through the old posts.) For what it's worth - it's also the same CMC as Collected Company.
edit - yup;
* This is probably a little too gimmicky, but this card could be amazing with cards like Myr Superion, Epochrasite, Skaab Ruinator, and Talara's Battalion or similar cards.
Two posts later: "The price just shot up to $15"
You might want to re-read Horribly Awry?
And Summary Dismissal is literally the only spell in standard at the moment that can stop a World Breaker trigger, so I mean...if they got it, they got it.
And then you get World Breaker back...
EDIT: Gah, should take my own advice sometimes. I forgot that Dismisal is exile too.
Collected Company cheats on mana and is positive card advantage. It has a huge board impact. This does none of those things for four mana.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Spirits does on turn 4. Mausoleum Wanderer. Even if they don't - it forces the opponent to answer it THAT TURN. Spirits is already one of the best decks and if their opponent has to use their turn next turn to answer it, no big deal. If they don't answer it that turn they won't be able to.
Spirits will probably cast this on turn 5 (or whenever they have 5 mana).
Turn 1: Wanderer
Turn 2: RattleChains
Turn 5: Panharmonicon with either a wanderer they can flash in or Essence Flux on the rattlechains. The first wanderer will get +1/+1 twice (because of panharmonicon) and it becomes a Mana Leak for U (This is assuming a removal, not a counterspell, otherwise it's only 2 more)
I always forget Horribly Awry is 4 or less. I also missed that World breaker was when cast So yes, World Breaker and the Emerge Eldrazi you mentioned (forget the name) are two cards that handle it that are viable (World Breaker is currently in use in sideboards and the Emerge card you mentioned is good enough to make maindeck if enough decks play artifacts).
Can any other deck do that? If not, then its only viable in spirits. Which means that it's only good in one deck. So it definitely won't be ban worthy.
That's a lot of Wanderers, they can only play 4, so in your scenario, they're gonna have a Rattlechains, Panharmonicon, and two Wanderers, or a Wanderer and an Essence Flux (which isn't played that much, from what I can find). That's 4 cards out of 11 cards, that's pretty lucky if you ask me.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, were you playing Standard the last time they banned anything in it? Because the last time anything was banned was Jace the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic, when Cawblade was like 70% of the meta. The time before that it was artifact lands, Arcbound Ravager, and Disciple of the Vault. Broken things that are still banned in Modern, and were banned in Extended.
Yes, as I said - if it only sees play in one deck then not so much. However I think it will see play in many more decks - and most decks will be playing it AND have answers to it.
Any other spirit could replace rattlechains with the essence flux. They could protect it other ways on turn 6. However, like I said, if I'm on the play I'd probably cast it turn 4 and force them to either have the answer that turn or be in for a world of hurt. I'm totally fine if I play it and they are forced to use their turn to answer it - because on the times they can't it'll be overwhelming.
Hangarback Walker, endless one and workhorse I believe they don't get double the counters correct?
(I'm asking because of the enters the battlefield with X counters)
And cards like Arcbound ravager, Arcbound Lancer, Etched Oracle and Lunar avenger do get double the counters because of "modular" and "Sunburst" correct?
RWU Narset, jeskai burn
RUB Marchesa the black rose
R Daretti, reanimator goodstuff
BU Vela, ninja assasin
UG Ezuri, woodland critters.
Those are replacement effects.
'comes into play with' - it's a replacement effect (and I'm not even sure it's that) not a trigger.
Lets put it this way - if it was a trigger it would go on the stack and the game-state would then see there's a 0/0 creature and put it in the graveyard.
Correct. You would get a total of 6 etb triggers if the creature you are copying has an etb effct.
I figured those are not triggered abilities
Just needed a clarification.
Probably slotting out a Conjurer's Closet or two, on my end.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I wont even bother to poke my head into the rabbit hole that is EDH but needless to say anyone playing Brago, Kalemie or last years Ezuri is probably melting at the moment.
Edit: Helps when I read the card properly, I wrongly thought you could copy Newlamog attack trigger.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Nope that's cast not enter the battlefield
The only eldrazi that works it with this is Thought-knot Seer
Wasteland Strangler too.
EDIT: Though that would require them having 2 cards in exile. Still, getting a 3/2 and killing 2 medium sized creatures or 1 large creature? Pretty decent.
Say you have a lumengrid sentinel in play. You cast this card and it resolves. Does the sentinel's ability trigger twice? How does the timing work in that regard?
Minion Reflector provides the same effect in any color, though it requires more mana.
Yes. It is a permanent you control that is triggered by an artifact entering play. The timing is the same as the original trigger - both go on the stack at the same time and then you place them on the stack in any order before anyone receives priority.