If they ever put him in a set with reprints like Masters or Conspiracy I'm sure he could show up at rare.
That would be a first for WOTC. Making a planeswalker shift from mythic rare to rare, last time we had those was Lorwyn which is getting to be about a decade ago.
LGS's do not lose out due to larger print runs, and collectors do not lose out due to Masterpieces. Both promote the continued opening of product, getting bodies into the stores.
So again, what are you saying? I swear man, 75% of your posts contradict themselves.
They are not going to cut off either the collector base (Reserved List and *****) or especially the STORES which actually keep the product flowing.
It's probably more of how I'm wording it. The issue has been larger print runs and communication from Wizards in all of this. An example would be Eternal masters suddenly having a second wave. Also, how does sitting on a bunch of Planechase anthologies boxes that no one wants going to help the LGS that got their order from the Distributor? I'm not saying they are intentionally trying to kill LGS or hurt collectors if that is how you are interpreting the prior post.
The point I'm getting at is that it really feels like Wizards is trying to kill the middlemen, aka the investors and bunker hermits, by pulling some really strange moves the last year. It's just that doing so can also hurt LGS indirectly that are trying to sell product. Imagine being a store owner who just bought 12 cases of Eternal Masters for 140 a box and have to sell with a margin of maybe 10 usd after shipping thanks to a retail price on Ebay of 170 usd. They have overhead costs to pay to keep the lights on and they aren't like a big box store that can make money on bulk low margin products.
Jumping forward to modern masters 2017, the preorder prices we are seeing are almost break even prices for most of the stores, and normally this is the set that gives the best margins.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I just hope the reprints are good starting Monday.
What makes me sad is that the box pre-order price likely wont survive once the spoilers start. I think 150-180 is a better price point for modern masters than an MSRP 240. The fact is that times are changing and the way most TCGs are being printed now are player oriented rather than collector oriented. Given the changes in print run size we are heading towards that age in magic.
Still pulling baseless statements out your ass, I see.
This feels really uncalled for and provides nothing to the conversation. You could have said that in an educated way that actually disputes his claim or to argue against him. I scrolled back and I have no idea where this hostility comes from.
On a different note what are the odds that wizards does the second print run jam with mm2017? I have heard a lot of speculation on a large print run but also heard people say their LGS' are being limited on orders.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
I just hope the reprints are good starting Monday.
What makes me sad is that the box pre-order price likely wont survive once the spoilers start. I think 150-180 is a better price point for modern masters than an MSRP 240. The fact is that times are changing and the way most TCGs are being printed now are player oriented rather than collector oriented. Given the changes in print run size we are heading towards that age in magic.
Still pulling baseless statements out your ass, I see.
This feels really uncalled for and provides nothing to the conversation. You could have said that in an educated way that actually disputes his claim or to argue against him. I scrolled back and I have no idea where this hostility comes from.
On a different note what are the odds that wizards does the second print run jam with mm2017? I have heard a lot of speculation on a large print run but also heard people say their LGS' are being limited on orders.
That ship has sailed. There have been multiple times I've disputed his nonsense with well-thought out responses and links to sources. It's no longer worth the effort or frustration of seeing someone perpetuate rumors or youtube theories as absolute fact.
Regarding the MM17 print run, I doubt we'll know for sure until boxes are actually on shelves. On one hand, WoTC appears to have achieved their goal of dissuading investors when they announced "phase 2" of EM, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. On the other hand, if that becomes a routine pattern then it'll be predictable and effectively pointless. I'm guessing they'll continue with the smoke and mirrors to keep investors on their toes and ultimately keep boxes from inflating to $300+ w/in a few months of release. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. It's hard to pass up $185 pre-orders from the LGS, so I ordered one to draft and another to sit on. If others had the same idea, that theoretically puts more product into the hands of players, assuming all pre-orders are fulfilled.
I'm not really sure that they've gotten investors to back off. While the second wave of EM was a huge blow, they did an oddly short run of Commander 2016. While some think that we will see a second wave like we did with Commander 2013, nobody can be sure. With the minimal info we have on MM3, conflicting reports of some stores having a hard time getting boxes, while others are being begged to buy more, and seemingly inconsistent release and print run strategies employed by Wizards, this set is extremely volatile.
I also don't think we will see any of these low preorder boxes actual ship if the boxes have a reasonable EV. I expect a lot of cancellations and refunds if the EV is higher than 200.
As for the set itself I expect BUG flashback to be an archtype, with the trilands being reprinted at uncommon. Snapcaster at rare with Spider Spawning and Mystical Teachings at uncommon. Spawning was a huge part of triple Innistrad, and I can't see them leaving it out.
I'm not really sure that they've gotten investors to back off. While the second wave of EM was a huge blow, they did an oddly short run of Commander 2016. While some think that we will see a second wave like we did with Commander 2013, nobody can be sure. With the minimal info we have on MM3, conflicting reports of some stores having a hard time getting boxes, while others are being begged to buy more, and seemingly inconsistent release and print run strategies employed by Wizards, this set is extremely volatile.
I also don't think we will see any of these low preorder boxes actual ship if the boxes have a reasonable EV. I expect a lot of cancellations and refunds if the EV is higher than 200.
As for the set itself I expect BUG flashback to be an archtype, with the trilands being reprinted at uncommon. Snapcaster at rare with Spider Spawning and Mystical Teachings at uncommon. Spawning was a huge part of triple Innistrad, and I can't see them leaving it out.
It can't just be coincidence that this is the only Masters set that can be pre-ordered for below MSRP. However, you have a good point when it comes to actually shipping the pre-orders. I was tempted to order $185 tax-free boxes from a particular eBay seller who has a solid reputation, but I opted to pre-order from my LGS for $200/box after tax. Online sellers can get away with cancelling pre-orders, but (most) LGSs will honor pre-orders; ******* over players who play at your store is a great way to lose business. Not worth it in the long run. I'm curious to see how everything shakes out as spoilers start to drop. I'd actually be fine with it if they chose not to spoil anything; at least that way online sellers who guarantee to ship pre-orders the day before/day of release would be less inclined to re-neg and cancel orders. I don't see that happening however, so time will tell I suppose. If anyone is planning to pre-order a box and has yet to do so, I'd suggest talking to your LGS before ordering anything online. If your store knows how many boxes they're getting then there's no reason why your order would get cancelled. In the rare event that it does without an appropriate explanation, then you should take your business elsewhere.
I ordered one to draft and another to sit on. If others had the same idea, that theoretically puts more product into the hands of players, assuming all pre-orders are fulfilled.
I ordered one to draft and another to sit on. If others had the same idea, that theoretically puts more product into the hands of players, assuming all pre-orders are fulfilled.
How does everyone sitting on boxes help?
Because it'd be players sitting on them rather than high-volume online-vendors? A big issue with EM was that it was damn near impossible to find boosters for MSRP the first time around, let alone boxes. If more players are incentivized to pre-order at a lower price point, then they get the opportunity to play with the set regardless if prices get jacked up post-release. In my neck of the woods, EM pre-orders were ~$280 and there was no way I was going to pay upwards of 300 for a box to draft.
Even if you disagree with people, it's better to do so by posting an argument or just ignoring the post, rather than insult the user. Please refrain from those kinds of rude posts and stick to the topic at hand.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
As for MM17, what do people think of all the conspiracy theories floating around on youtube right now? I find it interesting that Wizards has cultivated this right after reducing it's Modern event support.
Just that, they're conspiracy theories. Drama and controversy make for the best click-bait; we're living in an age of [mis]information and youtubers are some of the worst culprits. That's not to disparage content creators as a whole, but it's so easy to connect the dots and perpetuate a narrative that simply doesn't exist. WoTC puts out a statement that basically says standard has been taking a backseat to modern, so they're doubling down on the promotion of standard and cutting modern support. Naturally, that must mean modern is dying on its death bed and WoTC is lurking in the shadows, ready to smother it with a pillow. How did I arrive at this conclusion? Well, you just need to keep digging and the truth will eventually reveal itself...
Cutting modern support: This is obviously a subtle homage to another conspiracy. Modern buildings have supports. Those supports are mostly made out of steel. Everybody knows jet fuel can't melt Darksteel beams, so how does WoTC plan to cut those supports? With something that's been right in front of you the whole time: MM17. M is the 13th letter in the alphabet, so M + M = 26 and 26 -17 = 9. What's the standard width of a pillow? 11". What's MaRo's sleep number setting? 11. That's right, add it all up and you get 9/11.
Now I'm just asking questions, but I think we all know what's going on here...
If they ever put him in a set with reprints like Masters or Conspiracy I'm sure he could show up at rare.
That would be a first for WOTC. Making a planeswalker shift from mythic rare to rare, last time we had those was Lorwyn which is getting to be about a decade ago.
Yes, that is true, but Tibalt is that bad that. Heck, i could see him being an uncommon, but that's just me.
$179.49 Here is the new lowest pre-order price on TCG player. The last bottom price for modern master 2 was about $180~ so there isn't much of a difference. Other poster have been claiming that this product is going to be sold in big box retailers. If that is the case You're looking at $240 for a booster box there or probably $10 a booster pack. Still waiting for my Monday card spoilers.
The only thing I want are low priced singles. Basically deferring the cost of purchasing this product to someone else. I am wondering if anyone know what the at cost price is? Does anyone know how much an LGS purchases a modern masters booster 2017 box for? That would be useful information.
I sold my store about a year and a half ago, so the terms might have changed since them, but on a $240 box getting your allocation directly from Wizards should be around $124.80 or so. Last I heard from the guy I sold my store to is that this was still an allocated WPN product, but how much anyone can get depends on the print run and their store's WPN ranking (Standard, Advanced, Advanced +). For MM2 my store , which was Advanced + was allocated 18 cases, which was quite a jump over the 18 boxes of MM1 we got.
Here's hoping we have reason to be. I need to see reprints of Liliana, Snapcaster Mage, Goblin Guide, and Kitchen Finks. Would love to see reprints of Scapeshift, Crucible of Worlds, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Linvala, Horizon Canopy, Damnation, Through the Breach, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Noble Hierarch. We'll see.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Here's hoping we have reason to be. I need to see reprints of Liliana, Snapcaster Mage, Goblin Guide, and Kitchen Finks. Would love to see reprints of Scapeshift, Crucible of Worlds, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Linvala, Horizon Canopy, Damnation, Through the Breach, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Noble Hierarch. We'll see.
I think it would be criminal for there to not be a Cavern of Souls reprint, as the set puts heavy focus on the Innistrad block.
Souls would be great, but is a possible Masterpiece target...
That doesn't really mean anything.
There are Masterpieces of $1 cards,
so they could print Cavern of Souls here
and as a Masterpiece, even as soon as Amonkhet.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
My wishlist: Gaddock Teeg - Rare Path to Exile - UC (in the worst need of a reprint because it sees play everywhere now a days) Liliana of the Veil - Mythic... need to sell the set Snapcaster Mage - Rare (not upshifted... no need) see Liliana Damnnation - rare Badly needs a reprint Doubling Season - Rare badly needs a reprint Avacyn, Angel of Hope -mythic Fits Innistrad focus plus counteracts Grizzy Cavern of Souls - Rare Needs reprint Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger -Mythic solid blue mythic that could use a reprint Hellrider - Mythic I personally would like it to be rare but he was originally a mythic and let us be honest... doesn't have a ton of chase mythics. He fits Archangel of Thune - Mythic could fill other mythic spot and is a great nod to Commander. Past in Flames - Mythic. Red's other mythic that actually sees Modern play Blasphemous Act -Rare underutilized but is great in limited Gravecrawler -Rare fits with Liliana and could use a reprint. Solid in a Limited format Aurelia, the Warleader Mythic - fits the angel theme
I like a lot of the cards you have listed but I really would like to see Linvala, keeper of silence instead of Archangel of thune. Linvala has been stuck at 40 forever and I think a mythic reprint would bring her down to 15.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Let's be reasonable with our predictions everyone. I love their game, I've played it for years now. But after having two decades under their belt they still disappoint and make choices that can be perceived as mistakes. Sometimes they even make decisions that are outright stupid or make zero sense. A FTV about board destruction without Damnation, Dragon's Maze, Saheeli Kitty, Battle for Zendikar, Comet Storm. I'm playing this one cautiously.
Also they've had a land masterpiece cycle, so that probably won't be a reason for not printing it. Personally I think it'd be fine at rare, if they were to print it.
The problem with MM2017 is the box art and pack art card reveals. Even if the set is really good, putting low value cards on the card art is not screaming "buy me!" to the magic community. Under better circumstances this probably wouldn't matter, but they've been pitching misses for the last year and everyone is getting wary of WoTC making smart decisions with their sets. The cards they should have put on pack art are Voice of Resurgence, Liliana of the Veil, and Snapcaster mage. If they did that people would be a bit more confident in pre-ordering boxes.
Otherwise it feels like someone is doing the trust game where you have a complete stranger at your back and you fall backwards, hoping they catch you. My confidence level in Wizards is at the level of "I'm falling backwards while he's watching the Television eating a burger."
I just want WoTC to prove myself and many others wrong about them and do good releases.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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It's probably more of how I'm wording it. The issue has been larger print runs and communication from Wizards in all of this. An example would be Eternal masters suddenly having a second wave. Also, how does sitting on a bunch of Planechase anthologies boxes that no one wants going to help the LGS that got their order from the Distributor? I'm not saying they are intentionally trying to kill LGS or hurt collectors if that is how you are interpreting the prior post.
The point I'm getting at is that it really feels like Wizards is trying to kill the middlemen, aka the investors and bunker hermits, by pulling some really strange moves the last year. It's just that doing so can also hurt LGS indirectly that are trying to sell product. Imagine being a store owner who just bought 12 cases of Eternal Masters for 140 a box and have to sell with a margin of maybe 10 usd after shipping thanks to a retail price on Ebay of 170 usd. They have overhead costs to pay to keep the lights on and they aren't like a big box store that can make money on bulk low margin products.
Jumping forward to modern masters 2017, the preorder prices we are seeing are almost break even prices for most of the stores, and normally this is the set that gives the best margins.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This feels really uncalled for and provides nothing to the conversation. You could have said that in an educated way that actually disputes his claim or to argue against him. I scrolled back and I have no idea where this hostility comes from.
On a different note what are the odds that wizards does the second print run jam with mm2017? I have heard a lot of speculation on a large print run but also heard people say their LGS' are being limited on orders.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
That ship has sailed. There have been multiple times I've disputed his nonsense with well-thought out responses and links to sources. It's no longer worth the effort or frustration of seeing someone perpetuate rumors or youtube theories as absolute fact.
Regarding the MM17 print run, I doubt we'll know for sure until boxes are actually on shelves. On one hand, WoTC appears to have achieved their goal of dissuading investors when they announced "phase 2" of EM, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. On the other hand, if that becomes a routine pattern then it'll be predictable and effectively pointless. I'm guessing they'll continue with the smoke and mirrors to keep investors on their toes and ultimately keep boxes from inflating to $300+ w/in a few months of release. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. It's hard to pass up $185 pre-orders from the LGS, so I ordered one to draft and another to sit on. If others had the same idea, that theoretically puts more product into the hands of players, assuming all pre-orders are fulfilled.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I also don't think we will see any of these low preorder boxes actual ship if the boxes have a reasonable EV. I expect a lot of cancellations and refunds if the EV is higher than 200.
As for the set itself I expect BUG flashback to be an archtype, with the trilands being reprinted at uncommon. Snapcaster at rare with Spider Spawning and Mystical Teachings at uncommon. Spawning was a huge part of triple Innistrad, and I can't see them leaving it out.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
It can't just be coincidence that this is the only Masters set that can be pre-ordered for below MSRP. However, you have a good point when it comes to actually shipping the pre-orders. I was tempted to order $185 tax-free boxes from a particular eBay seller who has a solid reputation, but I opted to pre-order from my LGS for $200/box after tax. Online sellers can get away with cancelling pre-orders, but (most) LGSs will honor pre-orders; ******* over players who play at your store is a great way to lose business. Not worth it in the long run. I'm curious to see how everything shakes out as spoilers start to drop. I'd actually be fine with it if they chose not to spoil anything; at least that way online sellers who guarantee to ship pre-orders the day before/day of release would be less inclined to re-neg and cancel orders. I don't see that happening however, so time will tell I suppose. If anyone is planning to pre-order a box and has yet to do so, I'd suggest talking to your LGS before ordering anything online. If your store knows how many boxes they're getting then there's no reason why your order would get cancelled. In the rare event that it does without an appropriate explanation, then you should take your business elsewhere.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
How does everyone sitting on boxes help?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Because it'd be players sitting on them rather than high-volume online-vendors? A big issue with EM was that it was damn near impossible to find boosters for MSRP the first time around, let alone boxes. If more players are incentivized to pre-order at a lower price point, then they get the opportunity to play with the set regardless if prices get jacked up post-release. In my neck of the woods, EM pre-orders were ~$280 and there was no way I was going to pay upwards of 300 for a box to draft.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Kyle is cutting Modern support, heard.
Yes, that is true, but Tibalt is that bad that. Heck, i could see him being an uncommon, but that's just me.
I sold my store about a year and a half ago, so the terms might have changed since them, but on a $240 box getting your allocation directly from Wizards should be around $124.80 or so. Last I heard from the guy I sold my store to is that this was still an allocated WPN product, but how much anyone can get depends on the print run and their store's WPN ranking (Standard, Advanced, Advanced +). For MM2 my store , which was Advanced + was allocated 18 cases, which was quite a jump over the 18 boxes of MM1 we got.
Spirits
Here's hoping we have reason to be. I need to see reprints of Liliana, Snapcaster Mage, Goblin Guide, and Kitchen Finks. Would love to see reprints of Scapeshift, Crucible of Worlds, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Linvala, Horizon Canopy, Damnation, Through the Breach, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Noble Hierarch. We'll see.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I think it would be criminal for there to not be a Cavern of Souls reprint, as the set puts heavy focus on the Innistrad block.
Spirits
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
That doesn't really mean anything.
There are Masterpieces of $1 cards,
so they could print Cavern of Souls here
and as a Masterpiece, even as soon as Amonkhet.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Gaddock Teeg - Rare
Path to Exile - UC (in the worst need of a reprint because it sees play everywhere now a days)
Liliana of the Veil - Mythic... need to sell the set
Snapcaster Mage - Rare (not upshifted... no need) see Liliana
Damnnation - rare Badly needs a reprint
Doubling Season - Rare badly needs a reprint
Avacyn, Angel of Hope -mythic Fits Innistrad focus plus counteracts Grizzy
Cavern of Souls - Rare Needs reprint
Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger -Mythic solid blue mythic that could use a reprint
Hellrider - Mythic I personally would like it to be rare but he was originally a mythic and let us be honest... doesn't have a ton of chase mythics. He fits
Archangel of Thune - Mythic could fill other mythic spot and is a great nod to Commander.
Past in Flames - Mythic. Red's other mythic that actually sees Modern play
Blasphemous Act -Rare underutilized but is great in limited
Gravecrawler -Rare fits with Liliana and could use a reprint. Solid in a Limited format
Aurelia, the Warleader Mythic - fits the angel theme
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Otherwise it feels like someone is doing the trust game where you have a complete stranger at your back and you fall backwards, hoping they catch you. My confidence level in Wizards is at the level of "I'm falling backwards while he's watching the Television eating a burger."
I just want WoTC to prove myself and many others wrong about them and do good releases.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!