I know this is technically not a rumor (feel free to move this to Magic General, if you want), but MaRo's Making Magic column today addresses lots of things with BFZ and SoI blocks, including topics that were a BIG part of discussion here - so I think this would be worth a discussion thread.
Yep, and Investigate should have kept appearing. Good read overall.
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Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
huh, for once he actually addresses all of my major issues with sets of the past year. like spot on noticed them, and addressed them. every single one. normally that doesn't happen.
i'm not saying next year will be different, or that they've learned anything. i'm just saying all of my major issues were apparently picked up and noticed as major issues by the players and the design team
This was a good read, and I'm glad that they addressed their shortcomings. That being said, it's one thing to admit fault and another to change. Hopefully we see improvements in the future.
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Whenever this card invents, scry X, where X is the number of creatures created.
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"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
Well he definitely touched on several things I pointed out at the time if you remember how I went on at length: Too little eldrazi thematic spread over too many eldrazi, do-nothing tribal mechanics ("markers"), the thematic disconnect of BFZ/OGW like the colorless mana retemplating, and the story not moving anywhere from RoE, though he fails to address this properly in either his BFZ or ISD2.0 block analysis as he misses out that its not just "people didn't like the eldrazi side of zendikar", but the "BFZ just retreads RoE without building upon it at all". The problem was the story hadn't moved anywhere, it was the exact same setup. ISD2.0 showed innistrad in a far different light with lovecraftian horror and all the previous powers in tumult- angels now reapers and the church now a corrupted inquisition. Thats moving the story along.
I think he's giving too much weight to market research and not calling out the low effort reprinted mechanics for being as poor as they were. Converge was a far less inspired version of sunburst with no support in the rest of the set, none in limited and not carried over at ALL in OGW. Saying it did 'poorly' is one thing, but identifying why is more important.
overall his analysis is more apt than I expected it to be, pretty good job out of maro post-mortem
I liked the concept of converge but think that it was implemented poorly. Adding a basic land or two of an off-color type is riskier but makes all your converge cards more powerful. It makes interesting deck building decisions. However, there was very little support in BFZ not to mention the abandonment of the mechanic in OGW not only by not making more cards with it but also by creating the anti-synergy with colorless mana. I'd like to see it again but with better support, especially if the support was in the form of a multicolor set.
BFZ being a major miss and responsible for half the (admittedly few) things wrong with SOI/EMN sounds about right. Hope the third return to Zendikar is done right, and we have reasons to believe it still could be Adventure World after it got royally trashed by Eldrazi. Which was also a mistake.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I liked the concept of converge but think that it was implemented poorly. Adding a basic land or two of an off-color type is riskier but makes all your converge cards more powerful. It makes interesting deck building decisions. However, there was very little support in BFZ not to mention the abandonment of the mechanic in OGW not only by not making more cards with it but also by creating the anti-synergy with colorless mana. I'd like to see it again but with better support, especially if the support was in the form of a multicolor set.
Converge definitely feels like a mechanic that would be better received if it was in a multicolor matters set. Probably not "Return to Return to Ravnica", but "Awkward Second Teen Years of Alara" would probably be the most functional space for it.
I feel like BFZ block was a fault that would be hard to avoid? Trying to resolve the Eldrazi on Zendikar needed to be done before Adventure World could happen again, and that would be a hard sell as a single set plot. They could have not exacerbated it with Shadows over Emarkul, but that's about all they could do.
- Ingest was bad, Ingest could be based on the damage, this could make it at last something to consider.
- Devoid... was it even a mechanic?
- Processors missed some more interesting effects, but they weren't all bad.
- Rally was, for a 'pseudo-returning' mechanic, very boring, most was just "creatures gain keyword" and basic effects such as tap, pump, drain, repeating several effects that we saw on the first Zendikar (just fixed to the new template) only Munda and the GW ally were different but both effects were pretty bad... and the fact that just a few allies had it with several allies not having it just made it worse.
- Cohort was simply bad, there is not much you can say about it.
- Support was one of the most boring +1/+1 counters mechanics, maybe even worse than Outlast and Bolster.
- Converge, while not a bad mechanic, felt pretty out of place with all colorless matter around. It would makes sense on a multicolor block but not on BFZ.
the thematic disconnect of BFZ/OGW like the colorless mana retemplating
IIRC, this was one of the main reasons you didn't believe that the symbol could really represent just normal colorless mana. You thought it was nonsensical. I'm glad you're still keeping my reply in your sig as a reminder
I think he's giving too much weight to market research and not calling out the low effort reprinted mechanics for being as poor as they were.
He does seem to do this quite a bit. He says things were 'popular' but doesn't mention that most of the 'populace' surveyed would be fine with any fairly simple mechanic being used in a set, so this doesn't necessarily reflect good design. On reflection, the lack of support for Converge is pretty disappointing.
Overall, though he seems to attempt an honest assessment and goes into some interesting details about what the design team was thinking. Although I don't remember him mentioning the Gatewatch concept. Hmmm...
the thematic disconnect of BFZ/OGW like the colorless mana retemplating
IIRC, this was one of the main reasons you didn't believe that the symbol could really represent just normal colorless mana. You thought it was nonsensical. I'm glad you're still keeping my reply in your sig as a reminder
Yeah, maro weighed in on it back then on his blog and said that it was a big discussion while BFZ was being developed and he was against it, but they went with it anyway. So we already knew he thought that much was a mistake, but I bet the rest are on board with him now in retrospect.
Although I don't remember him mentioning the Gatewatch concept. Hmmm...
He says "We're getting better with story integration". Hahahahaha.
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I have to say, I really admire Mark Rosewater for his openness and his ability and willingness to admit and discuss his own shortcomings. It's not that common of a trait in people.
Converge definitely feels like a mechanic that would be better received if it was in a multicolor matters set. Probably not "Return to Return to Ravnica", but "Awkward Second Teen Years of Alara" would probably be the most functional space for it.
I feel like BFZ block was a fault that would be hard to avoid? Trying to resolve the Eldrazi on Zendikar needed to be done before Adventure World could happen again, and that would be a hard sell as a single set plot. They could have not exacerbated it with Shadows over Emarkul, but that's about all they could do.
Initially I had an opinion like yours, except after OGW and EMN respectively, I feel like they could have just had the Eldrazi leave Zendikar entirely (Emrakul did do that, so it wasn't impossible) and pull over all the "Investigate" theme from Innistrad to Zendikar. Investigate + (recovering from near-death) Adventure World would have been a bonanza of a theme. Then from there (the OGW set), they will reveal clues about the Eldrazi's real nature/purpose (instead of throwing it to Emrakul to cryptically state it herself).
From there they head to a post-apocalyptic world (Dominaria anyone?) and promptly lose the battle (honestly at the rate Dominaria gets ignored, an honorable death by Eldrazi is preferable). Then we head down to Innistrad and resolve the Sorin-Nahiri issue. Emrakul might still get sealed (remember Innistrad is an artifical Eldrazi destination, but the leyline seals are still fresh compared to Zendikar's), but at least it doesn't make the Eldrazi look like a total bunch of playthings for the planeswalkers.
Well, still glad to see they realized their mistakes, although it costed us the lives of Ulamog and Kozilek to do so.
Well he definitely touched on several things I pointed out at the time if you remember how I went on at length: Too little eldrazi thematic spread over too many eldrazi, do-nothing tribal mechanics ("markers"), the thematic disconnect of BFZ/OGW like the colorless mana retemplating, and the story not moving anywhere from RoE, though he fails to address this properly in either his BFZ or ISD2.0 block analysis as he misses out that its not just "people didn't like the eldrazi side of zendikar", but the "BFZ just retreads RoE without building upon it at all". The problem was the story hadn't moved anywhere, it was the exact same setup. ISD2.0 showed innistrad in a far different light with lovecraftian horror and all the previous powers in tumult- angels now reapers and the church now a corrupted inquisition. Thats moving the story along.
I think he's giving too much weight to market research and not calling out the low effort reprinted mechanics for being as poor as they were. Converge was a far less inspired version of sunburst with no support in the rest of the set, none in limited and not carried over at ALL in OGW. Saying it did 'poorly' is one thing, but identifying why is more important.
overall his analysis is more apt than I expected it to be, pretty good job out of maro post-mortem
Hah, I did not want to say outright that I am making this thread because of you :-))
I thought Mark said that his State of Design article would have vague card teasers for Kaladesh? (You know the ones I'm talking about)
I personally predict an investigate-like mechanic. Creating tokens for something to be used later - maybe mana? Something like crossover between Eldrazi Spawn and Clue tokens?
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I was surprised by two things:
1. That the complexity was too high jar75
OK, one more year of beginner block …
This wasn't what he say. I think he meant that they had a lot of mechanics that weren't being used as much, then the result was having complexity without depth, and for once I think he is right specially about investigate:
"I wish we had kept investigate and not introduced escalate [...] I would rather have held back on escalate for a set where it had more meaning and synergy and simply continued to use investigate. I think there was plenty of simple design space left with room for a few tweaks. I think this would have made players happier and created less complexity."
It's the same thing with converge and other mechanincs not being great, I'd rather they introduce mechanics in the bigger set then 'mix them up' in the smaller set instead of introducing more mechanics that may or may not play well with those in the bigger set. Complexity and depth are not the same.
I personally predict an investigate-like mechanic. Creating tokens for something to be used later - maybe mana? Something like crossover between Eldrazi Spawn and Clue tokens?
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Although I don't remember him mentioning the Gatewatch concept. Hmmm...
He says "We're getting better with story integration". Hahahahaha.
@Seymour_TUBES that is all creative. While Maro might have had some say in the choices to form the Gatewatch and who got to be the members falls into creative, as well as the wishy-washy quality of the writing itself.
@Arminion You know story integration for design is making sure the cards are showing the storyline? And considering a lot more people are aware of what is going in the story, I say that is getting better.
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@Arminion You know story integration for design is making sure the cards are showing the storyline? And considering a lot more people are aware of what is going in the story, I say that is getting better.
I get that, but the problem is also that they are doing it too aggressively. They are basically shoving it down our throats, which is a mistake, because:
a) the majority of players still isn't that invested and/or interested in the story
b) the flavor text suffers
c) the story isn't really that great to begin with (the wishy-washy quality of writing as you call it).
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Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
I personally predict an investigate-like mechanic. Creating tokens for something to be used later - maybe mana? Something like crossover between Eldrazi Spawn and Clue tokens?
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/state-design-2016-2016-08-29
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
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W Death & Taxes W
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
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1. That the complexity was too high
2. That Meld was a popular mechanic
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
i'm not saying next year will be different, or that they've learned anything. i'm just saying all of my major issues were apparently picked up and noticed as major issues by the players and the design team
Invent X (Pay X mana as this spell resolves. Create X 1/1 artifact creature tokens)
Whenever this card invents, scry X, where X is the number of creatures created.
I think he's giving too much weight to market research and not calling out the low effort reprinted mechanics for being as poor as they were. Converge was a far less inspired version of sunburst with no support in the rest of the set, none in limited and not carried over at ALL in OGW. Saying it did 'poorly' is one thing, but identifying why is more important.
overall his analysis is more apt than I expected it to be, pretty good job out of maro post-mortem
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I feel like BFZ block was a fault that would be hard to avoid? Trying to resolve the Eldrazi on Zendikar needed to be done before Adventure World could happen again, and that would be a hard sell as a single set plot. They could have not exacerbated it with Shadows over Emarkul, but that's about all they could do.
- Ingest was bad, Ingest could be based on the damage, this could make it at last something to consider.
- Devoid... was it even a mechanic?
- Processors missed some more interesting effects, but they weren't all bad.
- Rally was, for a 'pseudo-returning' mechanic, very boring, most was just "creatures gain keyword" and basic effects such as tap, pump, drain, repeating several effects that we saw on the first Zendikar (just fixed to the new template) only Munda and the GW ally were different but both effects were pretty bad... and the fact that just a few allies had it with several allies not having it just made it worse.
- Cohort was simply bad, there is not much you can say about it.
- Support was one of the most boring +1/+1 counters mechanics, maybe even worse than Outlast and Bolster.
- Converge, while not a bad mechanic, felt pretty out of place with all colorless matter around. It would makes sense on a multicolor block but not on BFZ.
IIRC, this was one of the main reasons you didn't believe that the symbol could really represent just normal colorless mana. You thought it was nonsensical. I'm glad you're still keeping my reply in your sig as a reminder
He does seem to do this quite a bit. He says things were 'popular' but doesn't mention that most of the 'populace' surveyed would be fine with any fairly simple mechanic being used in a set, so this doesn't necessarily reflect good design. On reflection, the lack of support for Converge is pretty disappointing.
Overall, though he seems to attempt an honest assessment and goes into some interesting details about what the design team was thinking. Although I don't remember him mentioning the Gatewatch concept. Hmmm...
Yeah, maro weighed in on it back then on his blog and said that it was a big discussion while BFZ was being developed and he was against it, but they went with it anyway. So we already knew he thought that much was a mistake, but I bet the rest are on board with him now in retrospect.
He says "We're getting better with story integration". Hahahahaha.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
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Initially I had an opinion like yours, except after OGW and EMN respectively, I feel like they could have just had the Eldrazi leave Zendikar entirely (Emrakul did do that, so it wasn't impossible) and pull over all the "Investigate" theme from Innistrad to Zendikar. Investigate + (recovering from near-death) Adventure World would have been a bonanza of a theme. Then from there (the OGW set), they will reveal clues about the Eldrazi's real nature/purpose (instead of throwing it to Emrakul to cryptically state it herself).
From there they head to a post-apocalyptic world (Dominaria anyone?) and promptly lose the battle (honestly at the rate Dominaria gets ignored, an honorable death by Eldrazi is preferable). Then we head down to Innistrad and resolve the Sorin-Nahiri issue. Emrakul might still get sealed (remember Innistrad is an artifical Eldrazi destination, but the leyline seals are still fresh compared to Zendikar's), but at least it doesn't make the Eldrazi look like a total bunch of playthings for the planeswalkers.
Well, still glad to see they realized their mistakes, although it costed us the lives of Ulamog and Kozilek to do so.
Hah, I did not want to say outright that I am making this thread because of you :-))
I personally predict an investigate-like mechanic. Creating tokens for something to be used later - maybe mana? Something like crossover between Eldrazi Spawn and Clue tokens?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
This wasn't what he say. I think he meant that they had a lot of mechanics that weren't being used as much, then the result was having complexity without depth, and for once I think he is right specially about investigate:
"I wish we had kept investigate and not introduced escalate [...] I would rather have held back on escalate for a set where it had more meaning and synergy and simply continued to use investigate. I think there was plenty of simple design space left with room for a few tweaks. I think this would have made players happier and created less complexity."
It's the same thing with converge and other mechanincs not being great, I'd rather they introduce mechanics in the bigger set then 'mix them up' in the smaller set instead of introducing more mechanics that may or may not play well with those in the bigger set. Complexity and depth are not the same.
So... gold tokens like the ones from Gild?
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
@Seymour_TUBES that is all creative. While Maro might have had some say in the choices to form the Gatewatch and who got to be the members falls into creative, as well as the wishy-washy quality of the writing itself.
@Arminion You know story integration for design is making sure the cards are showing the storyline? And considering a lot more people are aware of what is going in the story, I say that is getting better.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I get that, but the problem is also that they are doing it too aggressively. They are basically shoving it down our throats, which is a mistake, because:
a) the majority of players still isn't that invested and/or interested in the story
b) the flavor text suffers
c) the story isn't really that great to begin with (the wishy-washy quality of writing as you call it).
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Pretty much that. Only it would not be gold, but aether/energy reservoirs.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)