I hope he's only referring to non-evergreen here. It'd be super disappointing to not have any Equipment after Sigurda's Aid and the white creature that's basically Auramancer + Equipments (I forget the name of it) Also it'd be really weird not to have any creatures with flying.
-At least if Color-Artifact do not return I expect something like fixed Kicker for artifacts:
Upgrade X (You may pay an additional X as you cast this Artifact.)
Orzhovthopther 1
Artifact Creature - Thopter (0/1)
Flying
Upgrade W
Upgrade B
If ~~ Upgrade W can cast with flash and get +1/+0 counter.
If ~~ Upgrade B when ETB target player discard a card and this get +1/+0 counter.
But wouldn't that make it colored because of requringBW in the cost?
But other than that is a great idea for mechanic for artifact.
The main reason to keyword (or giving an action a specific name like 'discard' or 'dies') something is to have effects impact said keyword, and a certain level of space saving by not having to write out what Trample does. The easiest example of the former is Flying since Flying is self referential (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying or reach). So Firebreathing is probably a low priority, unless they intend to make firebreathing more interactive (When a creature firebreathes they gain an additional +1/+0).
The two evergreen keywords still in need of replacement are Regenerate and Protection. The rules text on them is too bogged down for Wizards to like using them, but they don't have a replacement for either yet. So my guess is a variant on Protection might show up in Kaladesh that is 'fixed.' The same way that keywording Menace was a replacement for Intimidate (and Landwalk, but that was already on the outs when Intimidate came in).
The main reason to keyword (or giving an action a specific name like 'discard' or 'dies') something is to have effects impact said keyword, and a certain level of space saving by not having to write out what Trample does. The easiest example of the former is Flying since Flying is self referential (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying or reach). So Firebreathing is probably a low priority, unless they intend to make firebreathing more interactive (When a creature firebreathes they gain an additional +1/+0).
The two evergreen keywords still in need of replacement are Regenerate and Protection. The rules text on them is too bogged down for Wizards to like using them, but they don't have a replacement for either yet. So my guess is a variant on Protection might show up in Kaladesh that is 'fixed.' The same way that keywording Menace was a replacement for Intimidate (and Landwalk, but that was already on the outs when Intimidate came in).
In the case of Protection, white's been getting a lot more damage prevention and indestructible spells lately, which serve most of Protection's role. Enchantment removal is also commonplace in white, so preventing Auras from enchanting creatures usually isn't necessary. White has flying as its major evasion mechanic, so all of Protection's functions are already served. (Some would argue that the evasion wasn't necessary to begin with as Protection already prevented damage and the evasion prevented awesome interactions like White Knight and Black Knight being able to duel).
Regeneration is another matter. Black and green make sense as the two most "survivory" colors, between black's necromancy and green's natural regrowth. But Regeneration as a mechanic doesn't truly fit the flavor each is going for.
Black wants something that brings creatures back from the dead; I've often suggested a "when this creature dies, return it to the battlefield" effect to flavorfully capture the kind of reanimation Skeletons and other black creatures shoot for. White could also potentially branch into this territory in the future as another overlap alongside Lifelink.
Green meanwhile wants either damage prevention (for Trolls, who have ridiculously fast regeneration factors) or "return to hand/library" effects like Regrowth and Reclaim to represent Plants, Fungi, and so forth regrowing after being cut down. It's worth noting that black and green overlap on "return creature card from graveyard to hand", so that's an option Wizards might wish to experiment with.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I'm aware White, Black, and Green have mechanical space available to them to cover the gap, but it isn't the same as a keyword for card creation reasons. As a keyword (even if they prefer to remindertext) doesn't need to be fully written out. Allowing for the card to do more things. I will grant Indestructible being keyworded fills a space in White that Protection left open, which I somehow missed as being part of the recent changes, so at least that is going for them. Meaning Regeneration is probably the more important thing to replace.
They also want to keep it the same between both colors, if its a keyword, as one strike against a keyword being evergreen is if it can't be put into a second color (even if it's only in there at tertiary, like Vigilance in Green and Reach in Red). If Suspend Counters and Phasing weren't considered too much of a complexity sap I would probably expect the Regen replacement to exile/phase target creature as a replacement effect. Phasing has the advantage of not making problematic ETB loops, but is probably the less likely bit of space to work in.
[quote from="SamuGelb »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/752955-no-returning-mechanics-in-kaladesh?comment=62"]-At least if Color-Artifact do not return I expect something like fixed Kicker for artifacts:
Upgrade X (You may pay an additional X as you cast this Artifact.)
Orzhovthopther 1
Artifact Creature - Thopter (0/1)
Flying
Upgrade W
Upgrade B
If ~~ Upgrade W can cast with flash and get +1/+0 counter.
If ~~ Upgrade B when ETB target player discard a card and this get +1/+0 counter.
But wouldn't that make it colored because of requringBW in the cost?
But other than that is a great idea for mechanic for artifact.
You are confused. The artifact is still colourless. It has a colour identity that is WB that only matters for commander.
Also - there's no way the'd do this. Kicker already works on any card (we've seen Kicker on creatures and spells) there's no need to make a new name for the same mechanic just for artifacts when the existing mechanic could work on artifacts as is. No need for new rules bloat. Since we know there's no returning mechanics, a card like this won't exist in this block.
Also they have not - and will not - create counters with different power toughness boosts since Fallen Empires. It's either +1/+1, -1/-1 or nothing.
Black wants something that brings creatures back from the dead; I've often suggested a "when this creature dies, return it to the battlefield" effect to flavorfully capture the kind of reanimation Skeletons and other black creatures shoot for. White could also potentially branch into this territory in the future as another overlap alongside Lifelink.
So... Persist and Undying. I'm actually a little surprised Undying didn't become evergreen for this reason.
They won't do anything like this in Kaladesh. It would be too powerful with Prized Amalgam. All cards currently in Standard that can be returned to play have a cost - Stitchwing Skaab and Haunted Dead being the first two off the top of my head.
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-At least if Color-Artifact do not return I expect something like fixed Kicker for artifacts:
Upgrade X (You may pay an additional X as you cast this Artifact.)
Orzhovthopther 1
Artifact Creature - Thopter (0/1)
Flying
Upgrade W
Upgrade B
If ~~ Upgrade W can cast with flash and get +1/+0 counter.
If ~~ Upgrade B when ETB target player discard a card and this get +1/+0 counter.
This is mechanically no different from kicker. It's not even a subset of kicker, or multikicker, like entwine or strive.
And I know that kicker is so generic that tons of mechanics do the same thing, but this is basically just the volvercycle, amongothercards.
This is probably not going to be like Mirrodin, where there's so many artifacts that you basically need to instill a colored base into the artifacts. Most of the artifacts will probably be created by colored spells, like the cards we've already had demonstrating Kaladesh, both in Origins, and in the leak.
Black wants something that brings creatures back from the dead; I've often suggested a "when this creature dies, return it to the battlefield" effect to flavorfully capture the kind of reanimation Skeletons and other black creatures shoot for. White could also potentially branch into this territory in the future as another overlap alongside Lifelink.
So... Persist and Undying. I'm actually a little surprised Undying didn't become evergreen for this reason.
Persist and Undying both work great...and require counters that not every block supports. I would shoot for a Regeneration-like mechanic that basically says "When this dies this turn, return it to the battlefield".
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Persist and Undying both work great...and require counters that not every block supports. I would shoot for a Regeneration-like mechanic that basically says "When this dies this turn, return it to the battlefield".
Almost every block has +1/+1 counters (I can't think of any in Modern that don't), which is why I said I'm surprised Undying isn't evergreen (or at least deciduous). Persist, obviously, will not be evergreen.
I think "when this dies, return it to the battlefield" would be too broken without a cost or limitation (which is probably why you worded it as 'when this dies this turn')
I would suggest;
a) It returns tapped.
or b) It returns at the beginning of the next end step/upkeep. (The way a lot of 'blink' effects work now)
These would feel more like regeneration, and allow you to remove it so it can't block or attack at least for that turn.
This is already better than regeneration, because this triggers dies/etb whereas regeneration does not. Although regeneration does allow you to keep equipments and auras.
Persist and Undying both work great...and require counters that not every block supports. I would shoot for a Regeneration-like mechanic that basically says "When this dies this turn, return it to the battlefield".
Almost every block has +1/+1 counters (I can't think of any in Modern that don't), which is why I said I'm surprised Undying isn't evergreen (or at least deciduous). Persist, obviously, will not be evergreen.
I think "when this dies, return it to the battlefield" would be too broken without a cost or limitation (which is probably why you worded it as 'when this dies this turn')
I would suggest;
a) It returns tapped.
or b) It returns at the beginning of the next end step/upkeep. (The way a lot of 'blink' effects work now)
These would feel more like regeneration, and allow you to remove it so it can't block or attack at least for that turn.
This is already better than regeneration, because this triggers dies/etb whereas regeneration does not. Although regeneration does allow you to keep equipments and auras.
The ideal format I'd shoot for is "(B/G): When this creature next dies this turn, return it to the battlefield." The only problem is unless the mechanic has a name, spells will have to get a little wordier to apply the equivalent effect to a creature ("When target creature next dies this turn", etc.). I really wish they could just change Regeneration to work more intuitively, but to do so would be a functional errata.
The benefit of unkeyworded regeneration is it's a little easier to include variants based on flavor and balance. The following is a list of Regeneration variants that could be used if the mechanic was simply written out:
Return from graveyard to battlefield.
Return from graveyard to battlefield tapped.
Return from graveyard to hand.
Put from graveyard on top of library.
Put from graveyard on bottom of library.
Shuffle from graveyard into library.
Exile from graveyard. May play this turn.
Damage prevention can also be used for Troll-style regeneration so the creature doesn't die per se but rather avoids dying altogether.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I think it's exciting to reuse no named mechanics (caveats, caveats). If they are going to make a mechanic evergreen, and continue using it, the logical choice is Skulk: a relatively vanilla evasion ability that can go in any deck, work in any color, and has obvious flavor that is not tied to any plane or group. Cycling and kicker would also make sense to bump up to evergreen or deciduous, but I honestly don't expect they'll do that with anything for a little while. Prowess was still pretty recent, and there isn't room for endless evergreens.
We'll definitely have a lot of thopter tokens, but we all knew that. We'll almost certainly have an artifact-matters mechanic, but probably not something like metalcraft or affinity that counts how many artifacts you have. Whatever it is, it'll probably be a five color mechanic. Some sort of new instant/sorcery mechanic seems likely, as we haven't gotten a lot of those lately compared to creature mechanics. We can expect a new creature mechanic too, but it'll probably be kinda vanilla. +1/+1 counters are almost a given: this isn't the set for -1/-1 counters.
In Magic Origins, we got a decent view of what blue/red wants to do, but green/black/white have pretty much nothing to go off of.
Invent X (Pay X mana as this spell resolves. Create X 1/1 artifact creature tokens)
Whenever this card invents, scry X, where X is the number of creatures created.
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"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
The ideal format I'd shoot for is "(B/G): When this creature next dies this turn, return it to the battlefield." The only problem is unless the mechanic has a name, spells will have to get a little wordier to apply the equivalent effect to a creature ("When target creature next dies this turn", etc.).
Yeah, something like that - but return it tapped. In a lot of ways that type of effect already exists with extort so it's not completely unheard of. (IE: The keyword for Extort is "Extort" not "Extort (W/B)". The cost for Extort will always be (W/B) as part of the rules for the keyword.)
I really wish they could just change Regeneration to work more intuitively, but to do so would be a functional errata.
The only part that is unintuitive about Regeneration is the fact that it happens 'the next time' the creature dies rather than right away. I was reading an article on this just recently, and they'd rather not do something like that again as a keyword. Your solution, by the way, does the same thing.
I'm not sure what else you find unintuitive. Removing it from combat and tapping it is probably the most simple thing about the whole thing.
As for functional errata - Regeneration has been in the game since the very beginning. It's been errata'd pretty much every time the rules changed. I know it got overhauled in 4th and 10th at the very least. There's no reason they can't tweak it again if they feel they need to, but the only thing about it that confuses people is the timing. People are trying to do it *when* it dies, not *before* it dies. Has to do with the fact that it 'gains regeneration' which is a one time thing, which is completely different from 'gains flying' or 'gains trample'.
The only part that is unintuitive about Regeneration is the fact that it happens 'the next time' the creature dies rather than right away. I was reading an article on this just recently, and they'd rather not do something like that again as a keyword. Your solution, by the way, does the same thing.
I'm not sure what else you find unintuitive. Removing it from combat and tapping it is probably the most simple thing about the whole thing.
Most players get "the next time this would be destroyed this turn" part. Removing damage from the creature is also easy to get, if a bit complex. No, the untintuitive part is the whole "tap this and remove it from combat" shtick. The tapping part trips up even veteran players, because it isn't an intuitive part of regeneration. Regeneration means either "this didn't die" or "this died, then came back". There's nothing about the flavor that mandates the creature need be removed from combat and tapped. It's not a sticky part of the mechanic, similar to how Haunt wasn't sticky.
And while my proposed fix might work similar, it also clearly explains what it does and when. There's also the fact that most forms of Regeneration are used in response to the event that's about to destroy the creature, so it's not like there's a lot of long-term memory issues.
As for functional errata - Regeneration has been in the game since the very beginning. It's been errata'd pretty much every time the rules changed. I know it got overhauled in 4th and 10th at the very least. There's no reason they can't tweak it again if they feel they need to, but the only thing about it that confuses people is the timing. People are trying to do it *when* it dies, not *before* it dies. Has to do with the fact that it 'gains regeneration' which is a one time thing, which is completely different from 'gains flying' or 'gains trample'.
In the case of necromantic regeneration, the regeneration effect can take place before, during, or after. Troll-style regeneration should prevent or remove damage rather than bring the creature back from the dead outright.
While the concept of reanimating or regrowing might be a signature of BG, I'm not sure if they need a keyworded version as there are so many variants that each do the job, but it boils down to graveyard shenanigans or damage prevention, both of which red incidentally has the tools to counter just as it does regeneration.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
the untintuitive part is the whole "tap this and remove it from combat" shtick. The tapping part trips up even veteran players, because it isn't an intuitive part of regeneration. Regeneration means either "this didn't die" or "this died, then came back". There's nothing about the flavor that mandates the creature need be removed from combat and tapped.
I guess it makes more sense to people who play D&D. They are defeated temporarily without actually dying, that's why they are removed from combat tapped (in D&D terms they fall unconscious but continue to regenerate and get back up again) Original magic drew a lot from D&D (even before WotC owned both franchises) The regeneration doesn't happen instantly.
The only time myself and the people I play with were ever confused about regeneration is that there was a point where we thought they couldn't regenerate if they were already tapped (which isn't true)
In the case of necromantic regeneration, the regeneration effect can take place before, during, or after. Troll-style regeneration should prevent or remove damage rather than bring the creature back from the dead outright.
The current regeneration mechanic perfectly mirrors Troll-style regeneration (as described above). Preventing the damage doesn't match it. Removing the damage does but the current regeneration already does that. The key point (for balance purposes) is that it disables it for a turn. Sure, it's regenerative properties prevent it from being destroyed, but you can at least slow it down (hence why it gets tapped and removed from combat)
While the concept of reanimating or regrowing might be a signature of BG, I'm not sure if they need a keyworded version as there are so many variants that each do the job, but it boils down to graveyard shenanigans or damage prevention, both of which red incidentally has the tools to counter just as it does regeneration.
I don't recall too many red spells that prevent regeneration. The biggest ones that come to mind are Wrath of God and Damnation. I know black has a few other single-target stuff that prevents regeneration. Nothing comes to mind for red although I wouldn't put it past them to have a few spells it's clearly black's territory.
There are currently 31 red cards that have the text "can't be regenerated", 21 of which function without another color. Notable among these are Carbonize, Disintegrate, Flamebreak, and Incinerate.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
There are currently 31 red cards that have the text "can't be regenerated", 21 of which function without another color. Notable among these are Carbonize, Disintegrate, Flamebreak, and Incinerate.
I was about to point out that all of those are really old cards (most of them are from Darksteel or earlier except Incinerate which was reprinted in M12), however a quick search of my own shows Rage of Purphoros in Theros.
Remember that the colour pie shifts over time - there are only 8 cards in Modern that fit the criteria we are talking about (two of which are in TimeSpiral which deliberately harkens to classic magic) so I stand by the point that it's pretty rare to see in Red.
The same search for Black has 27 cards - many of which are as recent as Magic: Origins (and we haven't had a block with regeneration since that). Thus it seems likely the mechanic is pretty much always given to Black whenever regeneration is relevant - but only rarely given to Red.
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There are currently 31 red cards that have the text "can't be regenerated", 21 of which function without another color. Notable among these are Carbonize, Disintegrate, Flamebreak, and Incinerate.
I was about to point out that all of those are really old cards (most of them are from Darksteel or earlier except Incinerate which was reprinted in M12), however a quick search of my own shows Rage of Purphoros in Theros.
Remember that the colour pie shifts over time - there are only 8 cards in Modern that fit the criteria we are talking about (two of which are in TimeSpiral which deliberately harkens to classic magic) so I stand by the point that it's pretty rare to see in Red.
The same search for Black has 27 cards - many of which are as recent as Magic: Origins (and we haven't had a block with regeneration since that). Thus it seems likely the mechanic is pretty much always given to Black whenever regeneration is relevant - but only rarely given to Red.
This mechanic already had a keyword - bury - which was eliminated.
This mechanic already had a keyword - bury - which was eliminated.
We're not talking about giving it a keyword. This is an offshoot of the 'revamp regeneration' discussion in which Manite claimed that red was able to deal with regenerators. I'm claiming that it typically doesn't except in rare one-off instances in current magic (as opposed to classic magic where it was one of their main features)
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
There are currently 31 red cards that have the text "can't be regenerated", 21 of which function without another color. Notable among these are Carbonize, Disintegrate, Flamebreak, and Incinerate.
I was about to point out that all of those are really old cards (most of them are from Darksteel or earlier except Incinerate which was reprinted in M12), however a quick search of my own shows Rage of Purphoros in Theros.
Remember that the colour pie shifts over time - there are only 8 cards in Modern that fit the criteria we are talking about (two of which are in TimeSpiral which deliberately harkens to classic magic) so I stand by the point that it's pretty rare to see in Red.
The same search for Black has 27 cards - many of which are as recent as Magic: Origins (and we haven't had a block with regeneration since that). Thus it seems likely the mechanic is pretty much always given to Black whenever regeneration is relevant - but only rarely given to Red.
Putting in a Gatherer search for black yields 83 results, many of which are also old Magic. When we restrict the selection to Modern, black yields 31 results and red yields 10. In Standard, black has 2 cards and red has none. This is because Regeneration itself has become scarce to the point anti-regeneration is practically meaningless.
Black and red both have the ability to thwart regeneration (as do occasionally green and white), as well as prevent life gain. Anti-regeneration is a tool they don't use often because if they did Regeneration wouldn't matter, and now that Regeneration has become more scarce there's simply less call for the clause.
My whole point is that red was a notable anti-Regeneration color, flavored so because Troll wounds could be made permanent using fire (incidentally, fire was also the key to defeating the Lernean Hydra in Greek mythology by burning the stumps of its necks so they couldn't regenerate new heads). The most logical replacements for Regeneration at this point are damage prevention and return-from-graveyard effects, both of which red has also been known to handily subvert and both of which black subverts far less often. Damage removal can work too, but that will end up working exactly like Regeneration does now sans tapping and removing from combat, and it still doesn't capture the flavor black wants for necromantic regeneration.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
They should just have regeneration function like it did pre-6th edition. I.e. It is a trigger when the creature receives lethal damage. No muss, no fuss, and very intuitive. As it is now, you can use it as a mana sink (I activate my Jungle Troll's regeneration 12 times, six times with green mana and six times with red, it now has 12 regeneration shields.)
The change to how regeneration works back then is just as stupid as "substance" was and don't even get me started on Phasing. >.<
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
---
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Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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is it talking the most recent mechanics. Like ones from eldritch moon and recent exotic mechanics.
or mechanics like Flash, indestrucable, trample, prowess, not coming back.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/149535481728/will-there-be-trample-in-kaladesh
Ok good the main ones stay put
So basicly no invented ones for this set.
Interesting.
He confirmed evergreen mechanics are in kaladash
But wouldn't that make it colored because of requringBW in the cost?
But other than that is a great idea for mechanic for artifact.
The two evergreen keywords still in need of replacement are Regenerate and Protection. The rules text on them is too bogged down for Wizards to like using them, but they don't have a replacement for either yet. So my guess is a variant on Protection might show up in Kaladesh that is 'fixed.' The same way that keywording Menace was a replacement for Intimidate (and Landwalk, but that was already on the outs when Intimidate came in).
In the case of Protection, white's been getting a lot more damage prevention and indestructible spells lately, which serve most of Protection's role. Enchantment removal is also commonplace in white, so preventing Auras from enchanting creatures usually isn't necessary. White has flying as its major evasion mechanic, so all of Protection's functions are already served. (Some would argue that the evasion wasn't necessary to begin with as Protection already prevented damage and the evasion prevented awesome interactions like White Knight and Black Knight being able to duel).
Regeneration is another matter. Black and green make sense as the two most "survivory" colors, between black's necromancy and green's natural regrowth. But Regeneration as a mechanic doesn't truly fit the flavor each is going for.
Black wants something that brings creatures back from the dead; I've often suggested a "when this creature dies, return it to the battlefield" effect to flavorfully capture the kind of reanimation Skeletons and other black creatures shoot for. White could also potentially branch into this territory in the future as another overlap alongside Lifelink.
Green meanwhile wants either damage prevention (for Trolls, who have ridiculously fast regeneration factors) or "return to hand/library" effects like Regrowth and Reclaim to represent Plants, Fungi, and so forth regrowing after being cut down. It's worth noting that black and green overlap on "return creature card from graveyard to hand", so that's an option Wizards might wish to experiment with.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
They also want to keep it the same between both colors, if its a keyword, as one strike against a keyword being evergreen is if it can't be put into a second color (even if it's only in there at tertiary, like Vigilance in Green and Reach in Red). If Suspend Counters and Phasing weren't considered too much of a complexity sap I would probably expect the Regen replacement to exile/phase target creature as a replacement effect. Phasing has the advantage of not making problematic ETB loops, but is probably the less likely bit of space to work in.
You are confused. The artifact is still colourless. It has a colour identity that is WB that only matters for commander.
Also - there's no way the'd do this. Kicker already works on any card (we've seen Kicker on creatures and spells) there's no need to make a new name for the same mechanic just for artifacts when the existing mechanic could work on artifacts as is. No need for new rules bloat. Since we know there's no returning mechanics, a card like this won't exist in this block.
Also they have not - and will not - create counters with different power toughness boosts since Fallen Empires. It's either +1/+1, -1/-1 or nothing.
So... Persist and Undying. I'm actually a little surprised Undying didn't become evergreen for this reason.
They won't do anything like this in Kaladesh. It would be too powerful with Prized Amalgam. All cards currently in Standard that can be returned to play have a cost - Stitchwing Skaab and Haunted Dead being the first two off the top of my head.
This is mechanically no different from kicker. It's not even a subset of kicker, or multikicker, like entwine or strive.
And I know that kicker is so generic that tons of mechanics do the same thing, but this is basically just the volver cycle, among other cards.
This is probably not going to be like Mirrodin, where there's so many artifacts that you basically need to instill a colored base into the artifacts. Most of the artifacts will probably be created by colored spells, like the cards we've already had demonstrating Kaladesh, both in Origins, and in the leak.
Persist and Undying both work great...and require counters that not every block supports. I would shoot for a Regeneration-like mechanic that basically says "When this dies this turn, return it to the battlefield".
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Almost every block has +1/+1 counters (I can't think of any in Modern that don't), which is why I said I'm surprised Undying isn't evergreen (or at least deciduous). Persist, obviously, will not be evergreen.
I think "when this dies, return it to the battlefield" would be too broken without a cost or limitation (which is probably why you worded it as 'when this dies this turn')
I would suggest;
a) It returns tapped.
or b) It returns at the beginning of the next end step/upkeep. (The way a lot of 'blink' effects work now)
These would feel more like regeneration, and allow you to remove it so it can't block or attack at least for that turn.
This is already better than regeneration, because this triggers dies/etb whereas regeneration does not. Although regeneration does allow you to keep equipments and auras.
The ideal format I'd shoot for is "(B/G): When this creature next dies this turn, return it to the battlefield." The only problem is unless the mechanic has a name, spells will have to get a little wordier to apply the equivalent effect to a creature ("When target creature next dies this turn", etc.). I really wish they could just change Regeneration to work more intuitively, but to do so would be a functional errata.
The benefit of unkeyworded regeneration is it's a little easier to include variants based on flavor and balance. The following is a list of Regeneration variants that could be used if the mechanic was simply written out:
Damage prevention can also be used for Troll-style regeneration so the creature doesn't die per se but rather avoids dying altogether.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
We'll definitely have a lot of thopter tokens, but we all knew that. We'll almost certainly have an artifact-matters mechanic, but probably not something like metalcraft or affinity that counts how many artifacts you have. Whatever it is, it'll probably be a five color mechanic. Some sort of new instant/sorcery mechanic seems likely, as we haven't gotten a lot of those lately compared to creature mechanics. We can expect a new creature mechanic too, but it'll probably be kinda vanilla. +1/+1 counters are almost a given: this isn't the set for -1/-1 counters.
In Magic Origins, we got a decent view of what blue/red wants to do, but green/black/white have pretty much nothing to go off of.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Invent X (Pay X mana as this spell resolves. Create X 1/1 artifact creature tokens)
Whenever this card invents, scry X, where X is the number of creatures created.
Yeah, something like that - but return it tapped. In a lot of ways that type of effect already exists with extort so it's not completely unheard of. (IE: The keyword for Extort is "Extort" not "Extort (W/B)". The cost for Extort will always be (W/B) as part of the rules for the keyword.)
The only part that is unintuitive about Regeneration is the fact that it happens 'the next time' the creature dies rather than right away. I was reading an article on this just recently, and they'd rather not do something like that again as a keyword. Your solution, by the way, does the same thing.
I'm not sure what else you find unintuitive. Removing it from combat and tapping it is probably the most simple thing about the whole thing.
As for functional errata - Regeneration has been in the game since the very beginning. It's been errata'd pretty much every time the rules changed. I know it got overhauled in 4th and 10th at the very least. There's no reason they can't tweak it again if they feel they need to, but the only thing about it that confuses people is the timing. People are trying to do it *when* it dies, not *before* it dies. Has to do with the fact that it 'gains regeneration' which is a one time thing, which is completely different from 'gains flying' or 'gains trample'.
Most players get "the next time this would be destroyed this turn" part. Removing damage from the creature is also easy to get, if a bit complex. No, the untintuitive part is the whole "tap this and remove it from combat" shtick. The tapping part trips up even veteran players, because it isn't an intuitive part of regeneration. Regeneration means either "this didn't die" or "this died, then came back". There's nothing about the flavor that mandates the creature need be removed from combat and tapped. It's not a sticky part of the mechanic, similar to how Haunt wasn't sticky.
And while my proposed fix might work similar, it also clearly explains what it does and when. There's also the fact that most forms of Regeneration are used in response to the event that's about to destroy the creature, so it's not like there's a lot of long-term memory issues.
In the case of necromantic regeneration, the regeneration effect can take place before, during, or after. Troll-style regeneration should prevent or remove damage rather than bring the creature back from the dead outright.
While the concept of reanimating or regrowing might be a signature of BG, I'm not sure if they need a keyworded version as there are so many variants that each do the job, but it boils down to graveyard shenanigans or damage prevention, both of which red incidentally has the tools to counter just as it does regeneration.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I guess it makes more sense to people who play D&D. They are defeated temporarily without actually dying, that's why they are removed from combat tapped (in D&D terms they fall unconscious but continue to regenerate and get back up again) Original magic drew a lot from D&D (even before WotC owned both franchises) The regeneration doesn't happen instantly.
The only time myself and the people I play with were ever confused about regeneration is that there was a point where we thought they couldn't regenerate if they were already tapped (which isn't true)
The current regeneration mechanic perfectly mirrors Troll-style regeneration (as described above). Preventing the damage doesn't match it. Removing the damage does but the current regeneration already does that. The key point (for balance purposes) is that it disables it for a turn. Sure, it's regenerative properties prevent it from being destroyed, but you can at least slow it down (hence why it gets tapped and removed from combat)
I don't recall too many red spells that prevent regeneration. The biggest ones that come to mind are Wrath of God and Damnation. I know black has a few other single-target stuff that prevents regeneration. Nothing comes to mind for red although I wouldn't put it past them to have a few spells it's clearly black's territory.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I was about to point out that all of those are really old cards (most of them are from Darksteel or earlier except Incinerate which was reprinted in M12), however a quick search of my own shows Rage of Purphoros in Theros.
Remember that the colour pie shifts over time - there are only 8 cards in Modern that fit the criteria we are talking about (two of which are in TimeSpiral which deliberately harkens to classic magic) so I stand by the point that it's pretty rare to see in Red.
The same search for Black has 27 cards - many of which are as recent as Magic: Origins (and we haven't had a block with regeneration since that). Thus it seems likely the mechanic is pretty much always given to Black whenever regeneration is relevant - but only rarely given to Red.
This mechanic already had a keyword - bury - which was eliminated.
We're not talking about giving it a keyword. This is an offshoot of the 'revamp regeneration' discussion in which Manite claimed that red was able to deal with regenerators. I'm claiming that it typically doesn't except in rare one-off instances in current magic (as opposed to classic magic where it was one of their main features)
Putting in a Gatherer search for black yields 83 results, many of which are also old Magic. When we restrict the selection to Modern, black yields 31 results and red yields 10. In Standard, black has 2 cards and red has none. This is because Regeneration itself has become scarce to the point anti-regeneration is practically meaningless.
Black and red both have the ability to thwart regeneration (as do occasionally green and white), as well as prevent life gain. Anti-regeneration is a tool they don't use often because if they did Regeneration wouldn't matter, and now that Regeneration has become more scarce there's simply less call for the clause.
My whole point is that red was a notable anti-Regeneration color, flavored so because Troll wounds could be made permanent using fire (incidentally, fire was also the key to defeating the Lernean Hydra in Greek mythology by burning the stumps of its necks so they couldn't regenerate new heads). The most logical replacements for Regeneration at this point are damage prevention and return-from-graveyard effects, both of which red has also been known to handily subvert and both of which black subverts far less often. Damage removal can work too, but that will end up working exactly like Regeneration does now sans tapping and removing from combat, and it still doesn't capture the flavor black wants for necromantic regeneration.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
The change to how regeneration works back then is just as stupid as "substance" was and don't even get me started on Phasing. >.<
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