I did in my Yisan, the Wanderer Bard EDH deck up until a few months ago. Before Battle For Zendikar block was released I had exactly three options for creatures with a CMC of 10, Stratadon which sucked, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth which was above $50 before it reprinted in Modern Masters 2 and Spawnsire of Ulamog which was rather pointless if you didn't own any Eldrazi Titans.
The cloudscraper is no longer in the deck now because so many more options were made available in BFZ block, but it still one of the best dollar rares with a CMC of 10 a beginning player can get if they have an EDH deck that cares about CMC.
Second, Rofellos and Azusa don't have any sort of Card advantage abilities.
But they're much more reliable at ramping, which is the thing that's most dangerous about them. Selvala's card draw is nice, but it can be shut off by big enough creatures; yours or your opponent's. And since you're playing mono-green, you're not going to have as many options for removing the biggest creature as you might like. And it's not like mono-green is hurting for powerful card draw these days. Selvala's considerably less reliable than the sort of draw power your mono-green EDH deck is going to be running anyway.
Third, Rofellos is only guaranteed 6 mana turn 3 with 3 forests. Very common, but not an absolute.
It's not absolute, but being stuck on two lands is a death knell for most Commander decks anyway. Rofellos can at least play four drops in such situations, so, if anything, that point is one in his favor.
Finally, yes, Animar has the capability of ramping out creatures faster, but Selvala can cast The Great Aurora, Genises Wave, Primal Surge etc. faster than Animar.
Animar can ramp into noncreatures just fine, considering how many creatures there are that fetch lands or tap for mana. I actually took Primal Surge out of my Animar deck because I was casting it too consistently, and it was getting boring auto-winning off of it.
It's also worth noting that WotC loves stapling spell effects onto creatures these days, so restricting yourself to creatures becomes less and less of a handicap with each new set.
On top of that, Selvala is a Mono-color creature, Animar is Tri-color, harder to cast on curve, and more efficient card choices for her as well.
I rarely have trouble getting Animar out turn three, and I haven't even optimized the mana base. I'm still running guildgates, for Pete's sake! Imagine if I ran fetches and shocks! Color fixing is largely a non-issue when green is your primary color.
And the trade-off for those extra colors is more and better options. I can run better creature removal, better card draw, counterspells, Sun Quan, Lord of Wu, etc.
I'll take pure mana-production over cost reduction any day.
I wouldn't. Cost reduction applies to every applicable spell cast that turn, whereas mana production only works once per untap. Selvala may help you cast a big fatty, which then lets you cast a bigger fatty next turn, but Animar can let you do that in the same turn. As such, he can go from zero to "everyone's dead" in a single turn. I can't tell you how many times I've started my turn with only a handful of counters on Animar, and then ended the turn with an army of fatties. And that's a pretty important difference; the longer it takes you to set up, the more time your opponents have to stop you. It's one thing to play Archetype of Endurance, Lifeblood Hydra, and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger in the same game; it's another thing entirely to play them in the same turn.
I did in my Yisan, the Wanderer Bard EDH deck up until a few months ago. Before Battle For Zendikar block was released I had exactly three options for creatures with a CMC of 10, Stratadon which sucked, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth which was above $50 before it reprinted in Modern Masters 2 and Spawnsire of Ulamog which was rather pointless if you didn't own any Eldrazi Titans.
The cloudscraper is no longer in the deck now because so many more options were made available in BFZ block, but it still one of the best dollar rares with a CMC of 10 a beginning player can get if they have an EDH deck that cares about CMC.
Okay, but you're still saying that you only played it as a stopgap because of the specific commander you were running, and because you didn't have Kozilek, the better option. (And even then, not every Yisan deck bothers going all the way up to 10.) That's not really saying much; I've seen even Chimney Imp see play in the right niche. (i.e. Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker EDH)
Second, Rofellos and Azusa don't have any sort of Card advantage abilities.
But they're much more reliable at ramping, which is the thing that's most dangerous about them. Selvala's card draw is nice, but it can be shut off by big enough creatures; yours or your opponent's. And since you're playing mono-green, you're not going to have as many options for removing the biggest creature as you might like. And it's not like mono-green is hurting for powerful card draw these days. Selvala's considerably less reliable than the sort of draw power your mono-green EDH deck is going to be running anyway.
Third, Rofellos is only guaranteed 6 mana turn 3 with 3 forests. Very common, but not an absolute.
It's not absolute, but being stuck on two lands is a death knell for most Commander decks anyway. Rofellos can at least play four drops in such situations, so, if anything, that point is one in his favor.
Finally, yes, Animar has the capability of ramping out creatures faster, but Selvala can cast The Great Aurora, Genises Wave, Primal Surge etc. faster than Animar.
Animar can ramp into noncreatures just fine, considering how many creatures there are that fetch lands or tap for mana. I actually took Primal Surge out of my Animar deck because I was casting it too consistently, and it was getting boring auto-winning off of it.
It's also worth noting that WotC loves stapling spell effects onto creatures these days, so restricting yourself to creatures becomes less and less of a handicap with each new set.
On top of that, Selvala is a Mono-color creature, Animar is Tri-color, harder to cast on curve, and more efficient card choices for her as well.
I rarely have trouble getting Animar out turn three, and I haven't even optimized the mana base. I'm still running guildgates, for Pete's sake! Imagine if I ran fetches and shocks! Color fixing is largely a non-issue when green is your primary color.
And the trade-off for those extra colors is more and better options. I can run better creature removal, better card draw, counterspells, Sun Quan, Lord of Wu, etc.
I'll take pure mana-production over cost reduction any day.
I wouldn't. Cost reduction applies to every applicable spell cast that turn, whereas mana production only works once per untap. Selvala may help you cast a big fatty, which then lets you cast a bigger fatty next turn, but Animar can let you do that in the same turn. As such, he can go from zero to "everyone's dead" in a single turn. I can't tell you how many times I've started my turn with only a handful of counters on Animar, and then ended the turn with an army of fatties. And that's a pretty important difference; the longer it takes you to set up, the more time your opponents have to stop you. It's one thing to play Archetype of Endurance, Lifeblood Hydra, and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger in the same game; it's another thing entirely to play them in the same turn.
I did in my Yisan, the Wanderer Bard EDH deck up until a few months ago. Before Battle For Zendikar block was released I had exactly three options for creatures with a CMC of 10, Stratadon which sucked, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth which was above $50 before it reprinted in Modern Masters 2 and Spawnsire of Ulamog which was rather pointless if you didn't own any Eldrazi Titans.
The cloudscraper is no longer in the deck now because so many more options were made available in BFZ block, but it still one of the best dollar rares with a CMC of 10 a beginning player can get if they have an EDH deck that cares about CMC.
Okay, but you're still saying that you only played it as a stopgap because of the specific commander you were running, and because you didn't have Kozilek, the better option. (And even then, not every Yisan deck bothers going all the way up to 10.) That's not really saying much; I've seen even Chimney Imp see play in the right niche. (i.e. Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker EDH)
A few points.
As to Animar- You need to build him up, first. You aren't casting fatties the turn he comes down, nor the turn after. Unless "fatty" refers to a 4 drop, but guessing by your tone, it doesn't. You can drop a fattie, both the turn she drops, and most definetly the turn after.
Second, how do plan on fueling Animar? He doesn't do it himself. He needs a CA engine.
Third, if you really want to go the "Animar can cast fat spells too, with ramp, etc., etc.," yeah, that basically applies to the commander format. Ramp is available in every color, Animar is nothing special.
Fourth, if it's a "moot point" why the lengthy reply?
You can drop a fattie, both the turn she drops, and most definetly the turn after.
Selvala doesn't have haste, so, no, you're not using her to power out anything the turn she comes in. And the turn after isn't much better, since she needs help to net you more than one extra mana. So, you play something moderately big, to let you drop something bigger next turn. At which point, you're going at about the same pace as Animar. Maybe a turn faster. Things aren't really going to pick up until turn five or six. But Animar's only a turn behind, and he catches up fast because, as I said, you can benefit from his ability multiple times in one turn to power out multiple threats.
But we're getting sidetracked. My point was never that Animar is the greatest thing ever; he was just an example of how ridiculous ramp already exists in EDH.
Second, how do plan on fueling Animar? He doesn't do it himself. He needs a CA engine.
He's part blue. How is this a problem? If your blue Commander deck doesn't have loads of draw power, what are you even doing? I could rattle off the names of dozens of draw engines that Animar would love, but everyone already knows them all, because they play them in all their EDH decks.
And don't act like Selvala's first ability is some super amazing draw engine. It's a nice bonus, and can help you recover after a board wipe, but we're looking at diminishing returns here. Every time you play a creature that triggers her draw, the bar is set that much higher for the next trigger, making it progressively harder to get that draw.
Fourth, if it's a "moot point" why the lengthy reply?
A suggestion, stick to what you know.
You're the one who brought up Duel Commander. I'm saying that that was a moot point, because the question wasn't about Duel Commander, but regular Commander.
And the lengthy replies are because there's always so much in you responses that I need to point out is wrong.
You've done a really poor job convincing me that Selvala is banworthy, even in duel commander. If anything, I'm less convinced now than I was when we started this debate. All your concerns about her power level are either minor, or the sort of thing you see in other (non-banned) commanders already.
You can drop a fattie, both the turn she drops, and most definetly the turn after.
Selvala doesn't have haste, so, no, you're not using her to power out anything the turn she comes in. And the turn after isn't much better, since she needs help to net you more than one extra mana. So, you play something moderately big, to let you drop something bigger next turn. At which point, you're going at about the same pace as Animar. Maybe a turn faster. Things aren't really going to pick up until turn five or six. But Animar's only a turn behind, and he catches up fast because, as I said, you can benefit from his ability multiple times in one turn to power out multiple threats.
But we're getting sidetracked. My point was never that Animar is the greatest thing ever; he was just an example of how ridiculous ramp already exists in EDH.
Second, how do plan on fueling Animar? He doesn't do it himself. He needs a CA engine.
He's part blue. How is this a problem? If your blue Commander deck doesn't have loads of draw power, what are you even doing? I could rattle off the names of dozens of draw engines that Animar would love, but everyone already knows them all, because they play them in all their EDH decks.
And don't act like Selvala's first ability is some super amazing draw engine. It's a nice bonus, and can help you recover after a board wipe, but we're looking at diminishing returns here. Every time you play a creature that triggers her draw, the bar is set that much higher for the next trigger, making it progressively harder to get that draw.
Fourth, if it's a "moot point" why the lengthy reply?
A suggestion, stick to what you know.
You're the one who brought up Duel Commander. I'm saying that that was a moot point, because the question wasn't about Duel Commander, but regular Commander.
And the lengthy replies are because there's always so much in you responses that I need to point out is wrong.
You've done a really poor job convincing me that Selvala is banworthy, even in duel commander. If anything, I'm less convinced now than I was when we started this debate. All your concerns about her power level are either minor, or the sort of thing you see in other (non-banned) commanders already.
You have admitted to not knowing enough about Duel Commander, yet you tell me I'm wrong. Stop back when she inevitably gets the ban-hammer in Duel Commander.
Just for fun, though.
Selvala will draw cards without spells. That's a fact. Leaning on another color to do that leads to consistency issues, that's a fact. Selvala benefits from anyhasteenabler, Animar does not, that is a fact. Selvala will always provide +1 mana, Animar will not, this, again, is fact. Selvala also has a more relevant creature type, again, fact.
You under-estimate her because you have admittedly no experience with the format. Yisan, Wanderer Bard was banned in DC, yet Animar still exists. That is really all you need to know.
Like I said, stick to what you know. I understand where your original point comes from. I also stated "She probably won't be banned in Traditional." So, yeah, good job, keep up the good work.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
Selvala is not Rofellos. I doubt she'll get banned in Duel, but hey what do I know all people want to do is talk about cards getting banned in that format.
I also stated "She probably won't be banned in Traditional."
Making your initial response a non-sequitur, because my post was about traditional Commander. There was no mention of Duel Commander until you came in.
I could understand making an offhand observation about her application in DC, but you've been hammering this point as though that's what the conversation was about. It's like if we were talking about draft, and someone started going on about cube.
I did in my Yisan, the Wanderer Bard EDH deck up until a few months ago. Before Battle For Zendikar block was released I had exactly three options for creatures with a CMC of 10, Stratadon which sucked, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth which was above $50 before it reprinted in Modern Masters 2 and Spawnsire of Ulamog which was rather pointless if you didn't own any Eldrazi Titans.
The cloudscraper is no longer in the deck now because so many more options were made available in BFZ block, but it still one of the best dollar rares with a CMC of 10 a beginning player can get if they have an EDH deck that cares about CMC.
But they're much more reliable at ramping, which is the thing that's most dangerous about them. Selvala's card draw is nice, but it can be shut off by big enough creatures; yours or your opponent's. And since you're playing mono-green, you're not going to have as many options for removing the biggest creature as you might like. And it's not like mono-green is hurting for powerful card draw these days. Selvala's considerably less reliable than the sort of draw power your mono-green EDH deck is going to be running anyway.
It's not absolute, but being stuck on two lands is a death knell for most Commander decks anyway. Rofellos can at least play four drops in such situations, so, if anything, that point is one in his favor.
Animar can ramp into noncreatures just fine, considering how many creatures there are that fetch lands or tap for mana. I actually took Primal Surge out of my Animar deck because I was casting it too consistently, and it was getting boring auto-winning off of it.
It's also worth noting that WotC loves stapling spell effects onto creatures these days, so restricting yourself to creatures becomes less and less of a handicap with each new set.
I rarely have trouble getting Animar out turn three, and I haven't even optimized the mana base. I'm still running guildgates, for Pete's sake! Imagine if I ran fetches and shocks! Color fixing is largely a non-issue when green is your primary color.
And the trade-off for those extra colors is more and better options. I can run better creature removal, better card draw, counterspells, Sun Quan, Lord of Wu, etc.
I wouldn't. Cost reduction applies to every applicable spell cast that turn, whereas mana production only works once per untap. Selvala may help you cast a big fatty, which then lets you cast a bigger fatty next turn, but Animar can let you do that in the same turn. As such, he can go from zero to "everyone's dead" in a single turn. I can't tell you how many times I've started my turn with only a handful of counters on Animar, and then ended the turn with an army of fatties. And that's a pretty important difference; the longer it takes you to set up, the more time your opponents have to stop you. It's one thing to play Archetype of Endurance, Lifeblood Hydra, and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger in the same game; it's another thing entirely to play them in the same turn.
Fantastic. But the post I originally responded to said "banned in commander", not "banned in duel commander". So it's a moot point.
Okay, but you're still saying that you only played it as a stopgap because of the specific commander you were running, and because you didn't have Kozilek, the better option. (And even then, not every Yisan deck bothers going all the way up to 10.) That's not really saying much; I've seen even Chimney Imp see play in the right niche. (i.e. Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker EDH)
A few points.
As to Animar- You need to build him up, first. You aren't casting fatties the turn he comes down, nor the turn after. Unless "fatty" refers to a 4 drop, but guessing by your tone, it doesn't. You can drop a fattie, both the turn she drops, and most definetly the turn after.
Second, how do plan on fueling Animar? He doesn't do it himself. He needs a CA engine.
Third, if you really want to go the "Animar can cast fat spells too, with ramp, etc., etc.," yeah, that basically applies to the commander format. Ramp is available in every color, Animar is nothing special.
Fourth, if it's a "moot point" why the lengthy reply?
A suggestion, stick to what you know.
But we're getting sidetracked. My point was never that Animar is the greatest thing ever; he was just an example of how ridiculous ramp already exists in EDH.
He's part blue. How is this a problem? If your blue Commander deck doesn't have loads of draw power, what are you even doing? I could rattle off the names of dozens of draw engines that Animar would love, but everyone already knows them all, because they play them in all their EDH decks.
And don't act like Selvala's first ability is some super amazing draw engine. It's a nice bonus, and can help you recover after a board wipe, but we're looking at diminishing returns here. Every time you play a creature that triggers her draw, the bar is set that much higher for the next trigger, making it progressively harder to get that draw.
You're the one who brought up Duel Commander. I'm saying that that was a moot point, because the question wasn't about Duel Commander, but regular Commander.
And the lengthy replies are because there's always so much in you responses that I need to point out is wrong.
You've done a really poor job convincing me that Selvala is banworthy, even in duel commander. If anything, I'm less convinced now than I was when we started this debate. All your concerns about her power level are either minor, or the sort of thing you see in other (non-banned) commanders already.
Turn 2 Selvala
Turn 3 Phyrexian Soulgorger Ugin the Spirit Dragon
You have admitted to not knowing enough about Duel Commander, yet you tell me I'm wrong. Stop back when she inevitably gets the ban-hammer in Duel Commander.
Just for fun, though.
Selvala will draw cards without spells. That's a fact. Leaning on another color to do that leads to consistency issues, that's a fact. Selvala benefits from any haste enabler, Animar does not, that is a fact. Selvala will always provide +1 mana, Animar will not, this, again, is fact. Selvala also has a more relevant creature type, again, fact.
You under-estimate her because you have admittedly no experience with the format. Yisan, Wanderer Bard was banned in DC, yet Animar still exists. That is really all you need to know.
Like I said, stick to what you know. I understand where your original point comes from. I also stated "She probably won't be banned in Traditional." So, yeah, good job, keep up the good work.
I'm ignorant enough that Selvala might surprise me and get banned, but I know enough to a least guesstimate.
I didn't say that literally everything you're saying is wrong, but you keep making flawed/inaccurate points.
See, this is what I mean about flawed points. Animar doesn't need haste, because his is a static ability.
And again, Animar was just an example.
Making your initial response a non-sequitur, because my post was about traditional Commander. There was no mention of Duel Commander until you came in.
I could understand making an offhand observation about her application in DC, but you've been hammering this point as though that's what the conversation was about. It's like if we were talking about draft, and someone started going on about cube.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-traditional/752614-selvala-heart-of-the-wild-power-plays#c1