So, what do you reckon?
WB = sac and effect
UR = Prowess
UB = sac, recursion, maybe zombie tribal shenanigans
RG = werewolves, ramp, whatever minor burn there is
GW = High toughness creatures bolstered by artifacts and pump
I'm buying the Noosegraf Mob for my collection and to have something my nephew can play. He still has a hard time with timing/priority & Instant speed abilities. So the newer planeswalker decks might be even higher on the curve for him.
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Wanted -Zombie Foils and older expensive Zombie stuff. High Priority- Beta Z Master/ Int. Collector's Edition.
So which one is based on Emerge and which one is based on Escalate? You could have took images of what it says on the back, and it isn't like WOTC posts the deck strategies online anymore.
RG = werewolves, ramp, whatever minor burn there is
While there are certainly wolves as maybe wolf tribal cards, don't expect there to be any werewolves. Wizards has never put any DFCs in precon decks due to logistical issues, and if they do eventually include them, it will be in high-end decks with token slots for checklists, such as Commander products.
There's only one creature besides Ulvenwald Observer in the GW deck that naturally has 4 toughness - the rest only get there with temporary anthem effects or Auras/Equipment. It's not even particularly flavorful for its deck like the other four (okay, the UR deck is fairly flavor-neutral) face rares are. I mean, at least Emrakul's Evangel is a Human...
Also, the disparity in quality of secondary rares amuses me: you've got Bedlam Reveler and Cryptbreaker; then you've got Emrakul's Evangel; then Silverfur Partisan (the only SOI rare - why not Spirit of the Hunt?); and then...Providence. Honestly, Providence might well see more play than some of the other four (the Partisan certainly hasn't done much up to this point), but it doesn't strike me as the kind of card a new player would be excited to play. I might be wrong - it's been a few years now since I was a new player - but it still seems like an odd choice for the deck. Considering the Escalate sub-theme, why not Collective Effort or Collective Brutality? Selfless Spirit would also be a solid fit.
Ah, well. I'll just be happy that the rare I actually want a bunch of is in an intro pack and so should have a price cap on it for quite a while. (There are actually enough parts that I want in the UR deck that I might buy one at my prerelease.) No need to question the other decisions too much.
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"The true measure of all heroes is not what they achieve, but who they inspire." —Triumph of Gerrard
This is actually really good news. If Bedlam Reveler or Cryptbreaker see any real competitive play, their intro pack printings will keep the price down to reasonable (or more likely near-bulk) levels, much like Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
I doubt a card like that is going to be very expensive. After all, by the time it's worth it to play it at either 2 or 3 mana, you should be ready to win the game anyway.
I've been considering making a Black/Green deck with zombies and delirium. Depending on what I get during the prerelease I might actually pick up 2 copies for the Blue/Black deck, as it has some uncommons I'd like (as well as several commons)
Liliana's Elite off the top - and it has 2 copies, meaning I'd get a full playset. Graf Harvest and Murder are also right up there on cards I must have. Succumb to Temptation is definitely a card I want. I don't have any Read the Bones (and they rotate out in 3 months anyway)
I'm just not sure it's worth getting the intro pack or buying the cards individually. I suspect probably the latter (but maybe not factoring in shipping costs - I can't get staple cards like Succumb to Temptation and Murder at my FLGS - they will be all sold out)
Both are common so it is easy to get the 4th copy. And Intro Decks are almost always poorly constructed. I mean there is the reason why this is the last we see of them.
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So that there is room to improve the deck, like, I don't know, adding a 4th Take Inventory and Galvanic Bombardment. It's as if WOTC wants new player to "fix" the deck by using cards from the 2 booster packs. Theme decks for sure would have had what you said.
Both are common so it is easy to get the 4th copy. And Intro Decks are almost always poorly constructed. I mean there is the reason why this is the last we see of them.
Name me something that is "the first or second product for new players to buy" that isn't poorly constructed? Block expansion theme decks were better because they weren't made for new players, but the core set ones were made for new players, so they sucked. I can't judge the planeswalker deck yet.
The theme deck model was perfect. It's job is to get new players and existing players a feel for the set they represent, and that is what I think the set associated precons should do. Because they are supposed to give new players a feel for the set, they are more "complete", and does not focus on getting new player to find out why the deck is bad, nor they were purposefully made bad for new players to improve on them. Then along came intro packs, which means they tacked on the "this is the first thing new players should buy", as they got rid of the 2 player starter game, as well as getting rid of the whole starter advanced expert level thing. The end result is a deck that gives you the feel of the set, but is a lot more boring than theme decks. There is also the whole NWO thing. Usually, cards we see as "bad", are also easy to use. Theme decks had 2 rares and 13 uncommons. Before NWO, the commons were decent and not as boring, as it had a bit of complexity to them. Intro packs had 2 rares and 12 uncommons. Not only does it have 1 extra common, the commons are so simplistic that they became boring and as a result of the simplicity, bad. Theme decks were bad, but intro packs are boring and bad. Here is another thing about intro packs. The MSRP. Theme decks I think were $10.99? Theme decks didn't have included boosters nor was it built in such a way for you to improve on it with a booster, so it was more complete. Intro packs before M13 included 1 booster with a $2 price hike, so $12.99 MSRP. So not only was there a price hike, the deck was crappier, and for making the deck crappy, we get a booster. Now we have 2 boosters, a $2 price hike, and a deck just as crappy as before.
Now comes planeswalker decks. As I said, the set associated precon should be made to give players a feel for the set they represent. I know that planeswalker decks already fail that. First of all, there are only 2 of them to choose from, meaning only 2 of more than 2 themes can be covered, and second of all, the planeswalker will take focus away from the set's themes and mechanics. Since they aren't out yet, I hope that the focus is on the set, not the planeswalker. Simply having the high rarity cards focus on the planeswalker means that the deck is already focusing on the planeswalker, not the set's themes and mechanics.
I know Eldritch Moon intro packs already fail at giving players a feel for the set as there is no deck that focuses on Escalate, and no deck that focuses on Emerge. It should have been Escalate, Emerge, Zombie, Wolf, and something else.
I doubt a card like that is going to be very expensive. After all, by the time it's worth it to play it at either 2 or 3 mana, you should be ready to win the game anyway.
This card is being looked at for legacy decks. And modern storm. If they didn't put it in this precon deck, it may very well have become the most expensive card in the set, even at rare and not mythic. You can never underestimate cost reduction effects. Legacy will view this as treasure cruise on a stick. And look at how much tasigur gets played.
Name me something that is "the first or second product for new players to buy" that isn't poorly constructed? Block expansion theme decks were better because they weren't made for new players, but the core set ones were made for new players, so they sucked. I can't judge the planeswalker deck yet.
I think the welcome decks are genuinely pretty well constructed, but they are usually for free. The booster battle packs (two welcome decks + two booster) which are in essence the two player starter from the past are a good first or second product to try out. Since they are in essence two welcome decks, they make for quite nice two player experience.
I liked the theme decks from the past as well, but they are long gone so no point in crying over spilled milk.
The planeswalker decks... I think they are a good idea. We have to wait and see for the execution, but I think to cut down the number from five to two decks is already a good move. At the moment we are lucky when we get one usable intro pack to focus the attention, seems like something they should have done in the past already.
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Name me something that is "the first or second product for new players to buy" that isn't poorly constructed? Block expansion theme decks were better because they weren't made for new players, but the core set ones were made for new players, so they sucked. I can't judge the planeswalker deck yet.
I think the welcome decks are genuinely pretty well constructed, but they are usually for free. The booster battle packs (two welcome decks + two booster) which are in essence the two player starter from the past are a good first or second product to try out. Since they are in essence two welcome decks, they make for quite nice two player experience.
I liked the theme decks from the past as well, but they are long gone so no point in crying over spilled milk.
The planeswalker decks... I think they are a good idea. We have to wait and see for the execution, but I think to cut down the number from five to two decks is already a good move. At the moment we are lucky when we get one usable intro pack to focus the attention, seems like something they should have done in the past already.
I think 10 per block is too much, but 2 per set is too little. There is surely more than 2 themes and mechanics in the set, and I think that by having 4, which is a good number, can cover most themes and mechanics of the set. Now that they have taken away the "this is the first product for new players to buy" tag from the intro pack, they should have just went back to theme decks. I'd rather have more deck choices with different themes than have a planeswalker and support cards shoehorned in, and thus taking some focus away from the set's themes and mechanics. I'm thinking 4 or 5 for large sets and 2 or 3 for small sets. That's what they should have done. Ideally, I would have gone 4 for both large and small sets, for my personal tastes, but 4-2, 4-3, or 5-3 is good too. 2-2 is not enough to cover all themes and mechanics of the set, and these decks should give players a feel for the set.
I doubt a card like that is going to be very expensive. After all, by the time it's worth it to play it at either 2 or 3 mana, you should be ready to win the game anyway.
This card is being looked at for legacy decks. And modern storm. If they didn't put it in this precon deck, it may very well have become the most expensive card in the set, even at rare and not mythic. You can never underestimate cost reduction effects. Legacy will view this as treasure cruise on a stick. And look at how much tasigur gets played.
Aggre RDW + This can make Ancestral + 3/4 prowess body for 2-4 CMC Easy.
Agreed. I'm thinking UR burn bounce with thing in the ice and this guy as the only creatures. Then all the burn standard has and some bounce should be good enough to compete. If not, it will still be a lot of fun to play. I love spellslinger red decks, but they have been unplayable in standard lately
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EDIT : Decklists are now up today - linked here.
White / Black - Unlikely Alliances
Foil rare - Sanctifier of Souls
2 Unruly Mob
3 Desperate Sentry
2 Skirsdag Supplicant
1 Vampire Noble
1 Nearheath Chaplain
1 Sanctifier of Souls
1 Gavony Unhallowed
2 Haunted Dead
1 Emissary of the Sleepless
1 Morkrut Necropod
2 Angelic Purge
2 Spectral Reserves
2 Ruthless Disposal
1 Providence
1 Borrowed Malevolence
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Repel the Abominable
1 Borrowed Grace
2 Lunarch Mantle
2 Vessel of Ephemera
1 Bound by Moonsilver
2 Campaign of Vengeance
13 Plains
12 Swamp
Blue / Red - Dangerous Knowledge
Foil rare - Niblis of Frost
2 Thermo-Alchemist
2 Ingenious Skaab
1 Niblis of Dusk
2 Weaver of Lightning
1 Pyre Hound
1 Niblis of Frost
2 Mercurial Geists
1 Silburlind Snapper
1 Bedlam Reveler
3 Take Inventory
1 Incendiary Flow
1 Drag Under
1 Pieces of the Puzzle
2 Make Mischief
2 Shreds of Sanity
1 Reduce to Ashes
1 Pore Over the Pages
1 Rise from the Tides
1 Turn Aside
3 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Convolute
2 Geistblast
1 Dance with Devils
13 Island
12 Mountain
Black / Blue - Shallow Graves
Foil rare - Noosegraf Mob
1 Wailing Ghoul
2 Seagraf Skaab
2 Tattered Haunter
1 Crow of Dark Tidings
2 Liliana's Elite
2 Exultant Cultist
1 Reckless Scholar
2 Stitched Mangler
1 Laboratory Brute
1 Stitchwing Skaab
1 Lamplighter of Selhoff
2 Advanced Stitchwing
1 Noosegraf Mob
3 Cemetery Recruitment
1 Liliana's Indignation
2 Compelling Deterrence
1 Succumb to Temptation
1 Murder
1 Throttle
2 Graf Harvest
2 Spontaneous Mutation
1 Ghostly Wings
1 Boon of Emrakul
13 Swamp
12 Island
Red / Green - Untamed Wild
Foil rare - Assembled Alphas
2 Furyblade Vampire
1 Noose Constrictor
2 Primal Druid
2 Quilled Wolf
3 Brazen Wolves
2 Howlpack Wolf
1 Silverfur Partisan
1 Mad Prophet
1 Voldaren Duelist
2 Somberwald Stag
1 Assembled Alphas
2 Prey Upon
1 Magmatic Chasm
1 Lightning Axe
1 Rush of Adrenaline
1 Clip Wings
1 Uncaged Fury
1 Clear Shot
2 Spreading Flames
2 Blood Mist
3 Wolfkin Bond
13 Mountain
12 Forest
Green / White - Weapons and Wards
Foil rare - Ulvenwald Observer
2 Thraben Standard Bearer
2 Hamlet Captain
1 Sigardian Priest
1 Steadfast Cathar
1 Emrakul's Evangel
2 Ironclad Slayer
1 Militant Inquisitor
2 Intrepid Provisioner
1 Courageous Outrider
2 Fiend Binder
1 Inspiring Captain
1 Ulvenwald Observer
2 Subjugator Angel
1 Open the Armory
1 Ironwright's Cleansing
2 Strength of Arms
2 Cultist's Staff
2 Slayer's Cleaver
1 Gryff's Boon
1 Choking Restraints
1 Hope Against Hope
1 Equestrian Skill
2 Faith Unbroken
12 Forest
13 Plains
Edit - Card Tag tech added.
~
WB = sac and effect
UR = Prowess
UB = sac, recursion, maybe zombie tribal shenanigans
RG = werewolves, ramp, whatever minor burn there is
GW = High toughness creatures bolstered by artifacts and pump
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Wow, this product is really going out with a whimper. Besides the UR deck, these really stink.
I'm buying the Noosegraf Mob for my collection and to have something my nephew can play. He still has a hard time with timing/priority & Instant speed abilities. So the newer planeswalker decks might be even higher on the curve for him.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Shadows_over_Innistrad/Intro_packs
Makes sense, with no more intro decks after EMN.
Escalate, similarly, seems to be in all the colors, but only a card or two each.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
So Bedlam Reveler in the UR one, and Cryptbreaker in the UB one? Not bad.
Intro pack rares are generally bulk, yes?
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
Also, the disparity in quality of secondary rares amuses me: you've got Bedlam Reveler and Cryptbreaker; then you've got Emrakul's Evangel; then Silverfur Partisan (the only SOI rare - why not Spirit of the Hunt?); and then...Providence. Honestly, Providence might well see more play than some of the other four (the Partisan certainly hasn't done much up to this point), but it doesn't strike me as the kind of card a new player would be excited to play. I might be wrong - it's been a few years now since I was a new player - but it still seems like an odd choice for the deck. Considering the Escalate sub-theme, why not Collective Effort or Collective Brutality? Selfless Spirit would also be a solid fit.
Ah, well. I'll just be happy that the rare I actually want a bunch of is in an intro pack and so should have a price cap on it for quite a while. (There are actually enough parts that I want in the UR deck that I might buy one at my prerelease.) No need to question the other decisions too much.
Liliana's Elite off the top - and it has 2 copies, meaning I'd get a full playset. Graf Harvest and Murder are also right up there on cards I must have.
Succumb to Temptation is definitely a card I want. I don't have any Read the Bones (and they rotate out in 3 months anyway)
And Noosegraf Mob, obviously.
I'm just not sure it's worth getting the intro pack or buying the cards individually. I suspect probably the latter (but maybe not factoring in shipping costs - I can't get staple cards like Succumb to Temptation and Murder at my FLGS - they will be all sold out)
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
So that there is room to improve the deck, like, I don't know, adding a 4th Take Inventory and Galvanic Bombardment. It's as if WOTC wants new player to "fix" the deck by using cards from the 2 booster packs. Theme decks for sure would have had what you said.
Name me something that is "the first or second product for new players to buy" that isn't poorly constructed? Block expansion theme decks were better because they weren't made for new players, but the core set ones were made for new players, so they sucked. I can't judge the planeswalker deck yet.
The theme deck model was perfect. It's job is to get new players and existing players a feel for the set they represent, and that is what I think the set associated precons should do. Because they are supposed to give new players a feel for the set, they are more "complete", and does not focus on getting new player to find out why the deck is bad, nor they were purposefully made bad for new players to improve on them. Then along came intro packs, which means they tacked on the "this is the first thing new players should buy", as they got rid of the 2 player starter game, as well as getting rid of the whole starter advanced expert level thing. The end result is a deck that gives you the feel of the set, but is a lot more boring than theme decks. There is also the whole NWO thing. Usually, cards we see as "bad", are also easy to use. Theme decks had 2 rares and 13 uncommons. Before NWO, the commons were decent and not as boring, as it had a bit of complexity to them. Intro packs had 2 rares and 12 uncommons. Not only does it have 1 extra common, the commons are so simplistic that they became boring and as a result of the simplicity, bad. Theme decks were bad, but intro packs are boring and bad. Here is another thing about intro packs. The MSRP. Theme decks I think were $10.99? Theme decks didn't have included boosters nor was it built in such a way for you to improve on it with a booster, so it was more complete. Intro packs before M13 included 1 booster with a $2 price hike, so $12.99 MSRP. So not only was there a price hike, the deck was crappier, and for making the deck crappy, we get a booster. Now we have 2 boosters, a $2 price hike, and a deck just as crappy as before.
Now comes planeswalker decks. As I said, the set associated precon should be made to give players a feel for the set they represent. I know that planeswalker decks already fail that. First of all, there are only 2 of them to choose from, meaning only 2 of more than 2 themes can be covered, and second of all, the planeswalker will take focus away from the set's themes and mechanics. Since they aren't out yet, I hope that the focus is on the set, not the planeswalker. Simply having the high rarity cards focus on the planeswalker means that the deck is already focusing on the planeswalker, not the set's themes and mechanics.
I know Eldritch Moon intro packs already fail at giving players a feel for the set as there is no deck that focuses on Escalate, and no deck that focuses on Emerge. It should have been Escalate, Emerge, Zombie, Wolf, and something else.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
This card is being looked at for legacy decks. And modern storm. If they didn't put it in this precon deck, it may very well have become the most expensive card in the set, even at rare and not mythic. You can never underestimate cost reduction effects. Legacy will view this as treasure cruise on a stick. And look at how much tasigur gets played.
I liked the theme decks from the past as well, but they are long gone so no point in crying over spilled milk.
The planeswalker decks... I think they are a good idea. We have to wait and see for the execution, but I think to cut down the number from five to two decks is already a good move. At the moment we are lucky when we get one usable intro pack to focus the attention, seems like something they should have done in the past already.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
I think 10 per block is too much, but 2 per set is too little. There is surely more than 2 themes and mechanics in the set, and I think that by having 4, which is a good number, can cover most themes and mechanics of the set. Now that they have taken away the "this is the first product for new players to buy" tag from the intro pack, they should have just went back to theme decks. I'd rather have more deck choices with different themes than have a planeswalker and support cards shoehorned in, and thus taking some focus away from the set's themes and mechanics. I'm thinking 4 or 5 for large sets and 2 or 3 for small sets. That's what they should have done. Ideally, I would have gone 4 for both large and small sets, for my personal tastes, but 4-2, 4-3, or 5-3 is good too. 2-2 is not enough to cover all themes and mechanics of the set, and these decks should give players a feel for the set.
Agreed. I'm thinking UR burn bounce with thing in the ice and this guy as the only creatures. Then all the burn standard has and some bounce should be good enough to compete. If not, it will still be a lot of fun to play. I love spellslinger red decks, but they have been unplayable in standard lately