Precidents start somewhere. Cannot be countered is clearly part of blue's pie and green's, it doesn't matter if that gets expanded in other ways. We're seeing it in Red now on burn spells - that's a complete break from their pie - but I'm okay with it because it helps red do something that red is supposed to be good at but usually gets shut down easily.
Except red has been getting "can't be countered" since Invasion and only 10 mono red cards have "can't be countered", and one can grant that to the next instant or sorcery, so it isn't like this has been something recent. You say precedents have to start somewhere and yet say red is breaking the color pie even though the first red cards to do it were from a set 16 years ago. Like you said "gotta start somewhere" and while you are okay with it why argue against red but for blue?
Imprison on the Moon is more a blue effect than Song of the Dryads is a green one. That said, the card feels slightly more white to me than blue - but I'm fine with it in blue.
I feel that if any color should turn something into a land, it should be green. Imprison is one of those huge special cases, as I can't see that act as green, and it is alright to break or bend the pie, like with Beast Within, as long as they don't happen often, but blue does it all the time. Imprison feels the most blue, and a little white, so I won't cry about it, because I find it cool the moon can be tapped for mana. Blue has polymorph effect, true, but in no way has blue shown to turn something into a thriving piece of nature, on its own. The moon is different, but why should blue be able to create land, but green can't?
So we power down draw, counter, and bounce. We power up creatures and make things more valuable... what is U supposed to do? If wizards wants to move away counters and hard control, they need to change what U does. And we are seeing that with Polymorph.
Maybe they shouldn't be powering down the core of blue? If they powered down creatures in green should it be able to counter spells and exile creature? Even if they are changing blue and their removal is polymorph effects that still doesn't explain how blue is turning a creature into a piece of land that can actually generate mana. Like I said, Imprison is a special case, but suddenly if blue is turning creatures into islands it will be alright because "it's what blue does", but if green turns something into a land, which is basically the color that loves lands it is somehow wrong?
Even by polymorphing crazy rules turning a creature into a land through blue makes no sense, again this is a special case though as no other color would feel right for Imprison besides blue.
Um make up your mind. First you say turning something into a land makes no sense in blue... then you say imprison feels best in u....
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Precidents start somewhere. Cannot be countered is clearly part of blue's pie and green's, it doesn't matter if that gets expanded in other ways. We're seeing it in Red now on burn spells - that's a complete break from their pie - but I'm okay with it because it helps red do something that red is supposed to be good at but usually gets shut down easily.
Except red has been getting "can't be countered" since Invasion and only 10 mono red cards have "can't be countered", and one can grant that to the next instant or sorcery, so it isn't like this has been something recent. You say precedents have to start somewhere and yet say red is breaking the color pie even though the first red cards to do it were from a set 16 years ago. Like you said "gotta start somewhere" and while you are okay with it why argue against red but for blue?
Imprison on the Moon is more a blue effect than Song of the Dryads is a green one. That said, the card feels slightly more white to me than blue - but I'm fine with it in blue.
I feel that if any color should turn something into a land, it should be green. Imprison is one of those huge special cases, as I can't see that act as green, and it is alright to break or bend the pie, like with Beast Within, as long as they don't happen often, but blue does it all the time. Imprison feels the most blue, and a little white, so I won't cry about it, because I find it cool the moon can be tapped for mana. Blue has polymorph effect, true, but in no way has blue shown to turn something into a thriving piece of nature, on its own. The moon is different, but why should blue be able to create land, but green can't?
So we power down draw, counter, and bounce. We power up creatures and make things more valuable... what is U supposed to do? If wizards wants to move away counters and hard control, they need to change what U does. And we are seeing that with Polymorph.
Maybe they shouldn't be powering down the core of blue? If they powered down creatures in green should it be able to counter spells and exile creature? Even if they are changing blue and their removal is polymorph effects that still doesn't explain how blue is turning a creature into a piece of land that can actually generate mana. Like I said, Imprison is a special case, but suddenly if blue is turning creatures into islands it will be alright because "it's what blue does", but if green turns something into a land, which is basically the color that loves lands it is somehow wrong?
Even by polymorphing crazy rules turning a creature into a land through blue makes no sense, again this is a special case though as no other color would feel right for Imprison besides blue.
Um make up your mind. First you say turning something into a land makes no sense in blue... then you say imprison feels best in u....
Sending something to the moon does feel blue, and I also said as long as it doesn't happen all that often then it's fine, but with blue it's been stretching out into other things the last few years and people don't want this. We rarely saw offensive polymorph, only a few times in the past, and now it is easily within blue's power to do so and with no problem with cards like Curse of the Swine, doing something that black and white rarely have that good anymore. People are wary of blue doing yet another thing it probably shouldn't, including dealing with permanents like this and making lands.
Actually thinking about this, I would have made this one colorless. Scour from Existence was strange, but set the idea that colorless can get unconditional removal. As a Colorless enchantment (or even a colorless sorcery,) we likely wouldn't even be having this conversation, because the effect is most often seen in White, something similar has been in Blue often and Green infrequently, and then there's Oubliette. Add to that the original Emrakul had protection from colored spells, and colorless would have hit mechanically and flavorfully, all without stretching Blue's slice of the color pie yet again.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
All this talk about stretching "U color pie" while people simultaneously complain about old U... if we don't change what U does while also eviscerating the U color pie, what point is there in the U color?
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All this talk about stretching "U color pie" while people simultaneously complain about old U... if we don't change what U does while also eviscerating the U color pie, what point is there in the U color?
Because this, and other cards, aren't changing what Blue does: they only add to the already-stuffed slice of Blue. The question "Can Blue do this?" is always "Yes." And when it isn't, it's retroactively MADE into "yes." Can Blue exile creatures? It can now. Can Blue nullify a Planeswalker, land, or creature with a single answer? It can now. Can Blue animate lands? It can now. Can Blue... It. Can. Now.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
All this talk about stretching "U color pie" while people simultaneously complain about old U... if we don't change what U does while also eviscerating the U color pie, what point is there in the U color?
Because this, and other cards, aren't changing what Blue does: they only add to the already-stuffed slice of Blue. The question "Can Blue do this?" is always "Yes." And when it isn't, it's retroactively MADE into "yes." Can Blue exile creatures? It can now. Can Blue nullify a Planeswalker, land, or creature with a single answer? It can now. Can Blue animate lands? It can now. Can Blue... It. Can. Now.
U animated lands in a single set... with most every color getting an awaken card or two. So that is not really a permanent U thing. That is a Zendikar thing.
And U has always been able to nullify those cards... remember Boomerang? Combined with counters, U could nullify most things. As for exiling, that has been generally the sole territory of W. So that is a little bit of a bend but generally fits in line with Ovinomancer, Ovinize, Pongify, Snakeform, Turn to Frog, and Rapid Hybridization. The decision to exile is probably more due to game mechanics other anything else. Like Why Pillar of Flame exiled cards. Had nothing to do with flavor and more to do with cards like Gravecrawler.
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Because exile as a zone has no actual flavor meaning and the color pie really doesn't have impact on it. A lot of cards use exile to mean entirely different things. Blue exiling something for the sake of a card like Curse of the Swine doesn't break the color pie at all, it is just the most mechanically sound way to get the proper effect. Cards like Pongify and Rapid Hybridization should have done that in the first place. The creature doesn't die, so sending it to the graveyard makes no sense, it is changed permanently into something else. It's the same reason something like King Macar or Gild exiles something, but people don't cry about that.
Because exile as a zone has no actual flavor meaning and the color pie really doesn't have impact on it. A lot of cards use exile to mean entirely different things. Blue exiling something for the sake of a card like Curse of the Swine doesn't break the color pie at all, it is just the most mechanically sound way to get the proper effect. Cards like Pongify and Rapid Hybridization should have done that in the first place. The creature doesn't die, so sending it to the graveyard makes no sense, it is changed permanently into something else. It's the same reason something like King Macar or Gild exiles something, but people don't cry about that.
Difference is that black has had exile for a long time and turning something to gold killing it in such a way that it can never be brought back, not to mention black's exile being some sort of super death or killing something beyond the normal means. Red doe sit by saying it disintegrated something that it can't be brought back, this is akin to D&D's line of thinking, and white's exile is removing something entirely from the plane or temporary while it is bound to something.
People were fine with blue and Pongify, because of the crazy color pie warping block of Time Spiral, and then suddenly it is just something that blue can do later on while other colors didn't quite get that treatment where green gets to tap all creatures, white does direct damage through non combat, red bouncing a creature of an opponents, and black being able to take extra turns or counter spells. That's the problem, none of those colors get those effects because they break the color pie, but blue got to keep cheap exile/destruction. See the problem? If white started doing damage like red people would throw a fit, and if green started exiling all permanents people would throw a fit too, although green can already destroy all permanent types and yet Beast Within went against the color pie, but blue can do that to creatures with no problem and give you a creature and there's no problem.
Because exile as a zone has no actual flavor meaning and the color pie really doesn't have impact on it. A lot of cards use exile to mean entirely different things. Blue exiling something for the sake of a card like Curse of the Swine doesn't break the color pie at all, it is just the most mechanically sound way to get the proper effect. Cards like Pongify and Rapid Hybridization should have done that in the first place. The creature doesn't die, so sending it to the graveyard makes no sense, it is changed permanently into something else. It's the same reason something like King Macar or Gild exiles something, but people don't cry about that.
Difference is that black has had exile for a long time and turning something to gold killing it in such a way that it can never be brought back, not to mention black's exile being some sort of super death or killing something beyond the normal means. Red doe sit by saying it disintegrated something that it can't be brought back, this is akin to D&D's line of thinking, and white's exile is removing something entirely from the plane or temporary while it is bound to something.
People were fine with blue and Pongify, because of the crazy color pie warping block of Time Spiral, and then suddenly it is just something that blue can do later on while other colors didn't quite get that treatment where green gets to tap all creatures, white does direct damage through non combat, red bouncing a creature of an opponents, and black being able to take extra turns or counter spells. That's the problem, none of those colors get those effects because they break the color pie, but blue got to keep cheap exile/destruction. See the problem? If white started doing damage like red people would throw a fit, and if green started exiling all permanents people would throw a fit too, although green can already destroy all permanent types and yet Beast Within went against the color pie, but blue can do that to creatures with no problem and give you a creature and there's no problem.
Ovinomancer was in Blue before Pongify, and honestly Pongify/Raprid Hybridization are both more fair versions of the effect than Curse of the Swine (2/2 is just not big enough to make it bad removal) and Ovinomancer (which is only fair because of how ridiculous the casting/effect cost on him is). When it comes to destroy vs. exile I am firmly on 'shuffle it back into the deck' as the way to handle polymorph instant/sorcery to be 'permanent but not too permanent'.
If Beast Within hit anything but creatures, it would be fine. If Sunlance hit target attacking/blocking creature it would be fine. Black being able to browbeat feels fine, just both those cards are incredibly pushed. Not sure what to do with Timbermare, it is a bit too close to 'pay 4, Lava Axe someone's Face.' Maybe a Provoke clause (but that gets wordy). Stingscourger (which is a fabulous goblin name) is... not sure where I stand on that, bounce in Red feels like a pushed 'can't block' mechanic (like how freezing lands in red feels like an underpowered land destruction mechanic). So I think that wouldn't be terrible to expand into on a higher rarity basis.
The issue is the best way to 'fix' Imprison in the Moon would be to change the card into a Legendary Artifact of "INNISTRAD'S SUPERMAX PRISON MOON!" and it would just have an O-Ring style removal effect. Which would involve pumping the CMC on it (or it would have to be a White or Blue Artifact). But as it's printed it feels like it is just heavily pushed in ways Blue already exists, but shouldn't get to play around with at Common/Uncommon.
Also I still feel Chaos Warp would be a fine 'in red' card if odds weren't stacked in such a way it would wiff on revealing something dangerous. If it was more like a mix of Polymorph and Possibility Storm (go from the top till you hit a 'whatever type got shuffled' and put that into play) it'd feel more like a pushed chaotic red card. Which would be a bend instead of a break (as Red still shouldn't be able to answer Enchantments effectively, but they should be able to have something to work with).
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Um make up your mind. First you say turning something into a land makes no sense in blue... then you say imprison feels best in u....
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Sending something to the moon does feel blue, and I also said as long as it doesn't happen all that often then it's fine, but with blue it's been stretching out into other things the last few years and people don't want this. We rarely saw offensive polymorph, only a few times in the past, and now it is easily within blue's power to do so and with no problem with cards like Curse of the Swine, doing something that black and white rarely have that good anymore. People are wary of blue doing yet another thing it probably shouldn't, including dealing with permanents like this and making lands.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Because this, and other cards, aren't changing what Blue does: they only add to the already-stuffed slice of Blue. The question "Can Blue do this?" is always "Yes." And when it isn't, it's retroactively MADE into "yes." Can Blue exile creatures? It can now. Can Blue nullify a Planeswalker, land, or creature with a single answer? It can now. Can Blue animate lands? It can now. Can Blue... It. Can. Now.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
U animated lands in a single set... with most every color getting an awaken card or two. So that is not really a permanent U thing. That is a Zendikar thing.
And U has always been able to nullify those cards... remember Boomerang? Combined with counters, U could nullify most things. As for exiling, that has been generally the sole territory of W. So that is a little bit of a bend but generally fits in line with Ovinomancer, Ovinize, Pongify, Snakeform, Turn to Frog, and Rapid Hybridization. The decision to exile is probably more due to game mechanics other anything else. Like Why Pillar of Flame exiled cards. Had nothing to do with flavor and more to do with cards like Gravecrawler.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
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UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
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Difference is that black has had exile for a long time and turning something to gold killing it in such a way that it can never be brought back, not to mention black's exile being some sort of super death or killing something beyond the normal means. Red doe sit by saying it disintegrated something that it can't be brought back, this is akin to D&D's line of thinking, and white's exile is removing something entirely from the plane or temporary while it is bound to something.
People were fine with blue and Pongify, because of the crazy color pie warping block of Time Spiral, and then suddenly it is just something that blue can do later on while other colors didn't quite get that treatment where green gets to tap all creatures, white does direct damage through non combat, red bouncing a creature of an opponents, and black being able to take extra turns or counter spells. That's the problem, none of those colors get those effects because they break the color pie, but blue got to keep cheap exile/destruction. See the problem? If white started doing damage like red people would throw a fit, and if green started exiling all permanents people would throw a fit too, although green can already destroy all permanent types and yet Beast Within went against the color pie, but blue can do that to creatures with no problem and give you a creature and there's no problem.
If Beast Within hit anything but creatures, it would be fine. If Sunlance hit target attacking/blocking creature it would be fine. Black being able to browbeat feels fine, just both those cards are incredibly pushed. Not sure what to do with Timbermare, it is a bit too close to 'pay 4, Lava Axe someone's Face.' Maybe a Provoke clause (but that gets wordy). Stingscourger (which is a fabulous goblin name) is... not sure where I stand on that, bounce in Red feels like a pushed 'can't block' mechanic (like how freezing lands in red feels like an underpowered land destruction mechanic). So I think that wouldn't be terrible to expand into on a higher rarity basis.
The issue is the best way to 'fix' Imprison in the Moon would be to change the card into a Legendary Artifact of "INNISTRAD'S SUPERMAX PRISON MOON!" and it would just have an O-Ring style removal effect. Which would involve pumping the CMC on it (or it would have to be a White or Blue Artifact). But as it's printed it feels like it is just heavily pushed in ways Blue already exists, but shouldn't get to play around with at Common/Uncommon.
Also I still feel Chaos Warp would be a fine 'in red' card if odds weren't stacked in such a way it would wiff on revealing something dangerous. If it was more like a mix of Polymorph and Possibility Storm (go from the top till you hit a 'whatever type got shuffled' and put that into play) it'd feel more like a pushed chaotic red card. Which would be a bend instead of a break (as Red still shouldn't be able to answer Enchantments effectively, but they should be able to have something to work with).