Yeah I wasn't expecting LOTV at all and nor did I want her to be reprinted (because that would be insane in standard) but I would expect the card for Liliana to be more exciting than this when she is supposedly Innistrad's "Last Hope". I mean, that art and her trailer definitely didn't make it look like all her +1 did was weaken(and maybe kill) a guy and all those zombies definitely look like a lot more than the 2 her ultimate is going to give you if you aren't playing a Zombie themed deck.
Well, the ultimate will give you more. If you start with 0 Zombies and none of them dies, you get 2(0+2) on first turn, 4(2+2) on second, 8(2+4+2) on third, 16(2+4+8+2) on fourth, etc.
I understand that, it's just that my problem is that's extremely slow and doesn't feel like a very exciting ultimate. It certainly doesn't feel like the sprinting hordes she had in the trailer which is bad for the casual market(whom wotc are undoubtedly also trying to get hyped up with this card as she is the face of the set).
If they wanted to do an incremental zombie ultimate I feel it would have been better for the emblem to have read "At the beginning of combat on your turn, put two 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens with haste onto the battlefield, then put another of these tokens onto the battlefield for each zombie you control.".
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Good start, imho the secret in her power lies in comparing her to Jace, Architect of Thought.
Then when you realise they are almost the same card, however Lilly is one cheaper, she might be a whole lot better than most people think.
Except that lilly needs creatures in your grave for her -2 to be useful at all. And Architect's +1 is good against tokens. I think she'd be great in the right deck, but the right deck for her is a lot more narrow than the right deck for Architect.
That said, I could see both her and her oath being played. The oath is meh on it's own, but with enough walkers it'll be nuts. I'm imagining BW with her oath, gideon's oath, her and gideon. Probably throw in Sorin and the new Deploy the Gatewatch and some Languishes and call it a deck.
Very fair 3 cost walker, but quite narrow in application.
She doesn't have any madness synergy where standard is concerned. That's probably a good thing. Many were predicting 'You may discard a creature card. If you do, get a zombie.' Free discard outlet with value every turn could be too strong. (Hello LotV lol)
Well, I'm glad she's not broken. And her art is stunning.
The flavor in her ult is cool. I like how it reenacts the Eldritch Moon trailer/story article where she steadily raises an army.
I do wish she could get to it a little faster, but if you do somehow manage to pull it off you do run away with the game.
Her oath is a really bad edict but neat token generator.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Yeah I wasn't expecting LOTV at all and nor did I want her to be reprinted (because that would be insane in standard) but I would expect the card for Liliana to be more exciting than this when she is supposedly Innistrad's "Last Hope". I mean, that art and her trailer definitely didn't make it look like all her +1 did was weaken(and maybe kill) a guy and all those zombies definitely look like a lot more than the 2 her ultimate is going to give you if you aren't playing a Zombie themed deck.
Well, the ultimate will give you more. If you start with 0 Zombies and none of them dies, you get 2(0+2) on first turn, 4(2+2) on second, 8(2+4+2) on third, 16(2+4+8+2) on fourth, etc.
I understand that, it's just that my problem is that's extremely slow and doesn't feel like a very exciting ultimate. It certainly doesn't feel like the sprinting hordes she had in the trailer which is bad for the casual market(whom wotc are undoubtedly also trying to get hyped up with this card as she is the face of the set).
If they wanted to do an incremental zombie ultimate I feel it would have been better for the emblem to have read "At the beginning of combat on your turn, put two 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens with haste onto the battlefield, then put another of these tokens onto the battlefield for each zombie you control.".
These are Innistrad Zombies. It wouldn't really fit them to have haste. You can be glad they don't enter the battlefield tapped...
Zombie decks are already jammed at the 3CMC slot. That is my biggest problem with her, they could have given her other abilities and costed her at 4CMC; but in a crappy attempt of making another LotV, at 3CMC, we get another card for a cramped slot in one of the few decks that wants it. If there is not a 1 drop Zombie in this set, many tables are going to be flipped.
People play creatures.
Liliana makes your opponents creatures worse (one Weakness at a time) and yours better (you get to dredge your dead guys back, slowly grinding through the opponent's ability to answer).
I think she's well designed, even if she has to face immediate competition with Veil.
Good start, imho the secret in her power lies in comparing her to Jace, Architect of Thought.
Then when you realise they are almost the same card, however Lilly is one cheaper, she might be a whole lot better than most people think.
Except that lilly needs creatures in your grave for her -2 to be useful at all. And Architect's +1 is good against tokens. I think she'd be great in the right deck, but the right deck for her is a lot more narrow than the right deck for Architect.
I agree with you on Lilly fitting a more narrow deck, and yes those are the differences, but the overall design concept is very similar.
However you can not say the abilities are better / worse.
The +1 is debatably better for either hero depending on the board state and meta.
The -2 on lilly can potentially give you 3 cards, while in Jace case it only happens if your opponent is flirting with you.
So yes, they are the 'same' card, however 3 cmc being the magical number, she got a whole lot going for her
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I think a lot of people are dissapointed for the same reasons as with the new Emrakul: it's not just an 'I win' button.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Love both these cards. Lilliana's art is the best it's ever been frankly. Her card and Oath look amazing. I do wish they used the entire oath speech in the flavor text though. But I love her effects on both cards and do want them. This set is really shaping up to be doing everything that BFZ wishes it had. 10/10 - set is amazing IMO.
Vulshok Sorcerer was a widely-played competitive card when it came out, based on the strength of its ping alone. Cunning Sparkmage was also strong on its own, and game-winning with Basilisk Collar.
Consider that Prodigal Sorcerer was also quite good when it first came out.
Even the lowly Mogg Fanatic was an all star when combat used the stack.
So pinging is good, especially when it's on a cheap and/or hasty body. Repeatable pinging can be really good, and gets much stronger with every additional pinger you have on board.
-X/-X effects are in many ways a stronger version of a ping/burn, especially where creature combat is concerned. Lowering a creature's power makes sure you can keep attacking or blocking without losing your own creatures, and sometimes means you don't even need to block. This flexibility is really valuable sometimes compared to a straight ping, especially when you have a planeswalker to protect.
Think of it this way. Pinging for one blanks a X/1 every turn when you aren't blocking, and -2/-1 can blank a 2/X vanilla repeatedly, on top of what pinging does. That's significantly stronger. A very large percentage of the creatures you'll want to protect your planeswalkers from are X/1 or 2/X, and Liliana stops them both.
Another thing to remember is that her ability lasts until your next turn, so it can be used offensively and defensively at the same time. You can protect your attackers and protect Liliana with a single activation! Just as many people overlooked this fact when evaluating Tamiyo, Field Researcher, I feel like many are overlooking this now.
So far we've established that Liliana, the Last Hope is at least comparable to Cunning Sparkmage. She can't ping opponents, but she does help your creatures to push damage through safely. This alone could be worth 1BB in certain archetypes, although it would be borderline. Her second ability pushes her over the top, however.
For -2, you can mill 2 and then Raise Dead. As some have noted, this is similar to drawing a card. In fact, it is much better as long as your deck supports it. Think of it as a stronger Thought Scour, one of the best graveyard enablers out there. Raise Dead in the right deck is stronger than drawing a card, since you get some selection and have a lower chance of getting a dead card. Because mill synergizes with recursion, the selection offered by this is actually a bit stronger. Raise Dead is worth one mana, and this is a little better than that. Thought Scour is worth one mana, and this is also a little better than that.
I believe it's fair to say that paying 1BB for this effect is a good deal in decks that want it, especially when it comes with a planeswalker attached.
Now, let's look at both abilities together. Liliana, the Last Hope does five things very well with just two abilities.
1) She kills X/1 creatures.
2) She deters attackers.
3) She pushes through blockers.
4) She fills your hand with gas.
5) She fills your graveyard.
Chandra's +1 can ping a creature for 1, ping a player for 1, and disable a blocker. Liliana's +1 can also kill X/1 creatures and helps to push through creature damage. On top of that, it protects you and Liliana, and can help deal with regenerators and indestructibles. The abilities are comparable.
Chandra's second ability costs no loyalty and draws you a card as long as you play it that turn. Liliana's costs 2 loyalty and also can give you a card, as well as mill you for 2. Both abilities can whiff, and will whiff more or less depending on your deck. Liliana's milling can be powerful if you can abuse your graveyard, and her ability is more reliable at drawing you gas as long as your deck has enough creatures.
In addition, you are not forced to cast the card she gives you that turn. Chandra's advantage is that her ability doesn't cost you loyalty, so you can use it every turn. For every card you draw with Liliana, you can draw 3 with Chandra, provided that she lives that long. Those turns aren't wasted with Liliana though, as you are still giving a creature Weakness, and if you are killing them outright, you are still gaining card advantage.
Chandra's ultimate, like Liliana's, can be powerful as long as you build around it. It's harder to activate though, since Chandra isn't as good at protecting herself.
It looks to me that Liliana, the Last Hope is at least as good as Chandra, Pyromaster, except she costs 1 less mana. How much better is this? That depends, but consider a few comparisons.
The cards in the first group are all considered to be good to excellent in multiple formats.
The cards in the second group are considered to be okay, but nothing special. They are not what you build your deck around.
The difference between a top-tier card and a filler card is often a single mana.
If Chandra, Pyromaster is an okay card, but nothing special, how good would it be if it cost one less mana?
Liliana will pre order high but its a $7-8 dollar planeswalker at best this isn't as good as Nissa . I think the set is a 4/10 so far but more cards coming.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
I hope no one seriously thought we would get a new of the veil.
But I was looking at this and was all like... Bunk. It really feels like wizards is pushing graveyard matters. Maybe in standard, but this to me at first glance seems weak in modern and totally outclassed in legacy for graveyard shenanigans.
Oh yes, abrupt decay.
Her oath is pretty nice. "Each opponent". Seems like that was thrown in for commander. Not that it's bad or anything.
I am really hoping for some good zombie cards because I've wanted to play with Relentless Dead since he was spoiled last spoiler season and he will play nicely with new Liliana. I am annoyed that Diregraf Colossus and new Lili both are on the 3cc line.
Her +1 is really relevant in any meta. In a Standard dominated by Reflector Mages, Sylvan Advocates, and Gideon tokens its even more applicable than it usually would be.
The -2 is, literally, CA. Its hard to ask for more than that.
Ultimate is ultimate. Its fine.
I strongly encourage anyone being overly critical of Lilly's current iteration to go back and re-read the threads on LotV, Domri Rade, and Nissa. Then ask yourself if you *really* wanna be 'that guy.'
The +1 can blank. How is that relevant for a pw that starts at 3 loyalty?
The -2 is only card advantage if you hit a creature. Realistically, you won't have a creature in the yard the first few turns, so you can't even use the -2 except for mill(which is really bad).
The ultimate costs 7 and is underpowered. Mass tokens don't always end the game and this one needs several turns past the ultimate to make them.
It's funny how you say to not be "that guy". Well judging from those past threads, it seems that "that guy" is the general consensus of mtgs. It looks like the general consensus on this card is positive, so what are the odds that all of you are wrong about this card and it ends up being terrible
Yeah I wasn't expecting LOTV at all and nor did I want her to be reprinted (because that would be insane in standard) but I would expect the card for Liliana to be more exciting than this when she is supposedly Innistrad's "Last Hope". I mean, that art and her trailer definitely didn't make it look like all her +1 did was weaken(and maybe kill) a guy and all those zombies definitely look like a lot more than the 2 her ultimate is going to give you if you aren't playing a Zombie themed deck.
Well, the ultimate will give you more. If you start with 0 Zombies and none of them dies, you get 2(0+2) on first turn, 4(2+2) on second, 8(2+4+2) on third, 16(2+4+8+2) on fourth, etc.
I understand that, it's just that my problem is that's extremely slow and doesn't feel like a very exciting ultimate. It certainly doesn't feel like the sprinting hordes she had in the trailer which is bad for the casual market(whom wotc are undoubtedly also trying to get hyped up with this card as she is the face of the set).
If they wanted to do an incremental zombie ultimate I feel it would have been better for the emblem to have read "At the beginning of combat on your turn, put two 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens with haste onto the battlefield, then put another of these tokens onto the battlefield for each zombie you control.".
These are Innistrad Zombies. It wouldn't really fit them to have haste. You can be glad they don't enter the battlefield tapped...
Black is arguably secondary in haste (having over 100 cards that have or grant it) and I've never seen a rule, written or otherwise, that states that Innistrad's zombies specifically can't have it. I'm simply advocating for this planeswalker ultimate to be exciting and attractive (a major goal for ultimates, which are mostly made for casual play) and not feel like the planeswalker performing the ultimate is a turtle.
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If they wanted to do an incremental zombie ultimate I feel it would have been better for the emblem to have read "At the beginning of combat on your turn, put two 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens with haste onto the battlefield, then put another of these tokens onto the battlefield for each zombie you control.".
-Chandra Nalaar
Except that lilly needs creatures in your grave for her -2 to be useful at all. And Architect's +1 is good against tokens. I think she'd be great in the right deck, but the right deck for her is a lot more narrow than the right deck for Architect.
That said, I could see both her and her oath being played. The oath is meh on it's own, but with enough walkers it'll be nuts. I'm imagining BW with her oath, gideon's oath, her and gideon. Probably throw in Sorin and the new Deploy the Gatewatch and some Languishes and call it a deck.
Because returning sylvan advocate, tireless tracker or.. Den protector is a nightmare.
Her ultimate is flavor text.
The oath is also great at protecting your walker and will see play.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
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GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
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R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
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Very fair 3 cost walker, but quite narrow in application.
She doesn't have any madness synergy where standard is concerned. That's probably a good thing. Many were predicting 'You may discard a creature card. If you do, get a zombie.' Free discard outlet with value every turn could be too strong. (Hello LotV lol)
Well, I'm glad she's not broken. And her art is stunning.
The flavor in her ult is cool. I like how it reenacts the Eldritch Moon trailer/story article where she steadily raises an army.
I do wish she could get to it a little faster, but if you do somehow manage to pull it off you do run away with the game.
Her oath is a really bad edict but neat token generator.
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10/10, I tapped.
These are Innistrad Zombies. It wouldn't really fit them to have haste. You can be glad they don't enter the battlefield tapped...
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Modern:
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UWR Jeskai Control
Liliana makes your opponents creatures worse (one Weakness at a time) and yours better (you get to dredge your dead guys back, slowly grinding through the opponent's ability to answer).
I think she's well designed, even if she has to face immediate competition with Veil.
I agree with you on Lilly fitting a more narrow deck, and yes those are the differences, but the overall design concept is very similar.
However you can not say the abilities are better / worse.
The +1 is debatably better for either hero depending on the board state and meta.
The -2 on lilly can potentially give you 3 cards, while in Jace case it only happens if your opponent is flirting with you.
So yes, they are the 'same' card, however 3 cmc being the magical number, she got a whole lot going for her
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
For 1RR, you get Vulshok Sorcerer. A more recent comparison is the 2R Cunning Sparkmage.
Vulshok Sorcerer was a widely-played competitive card when it came out, based on the strength of its ping alone.
Cunning Sparkmage was also strong on its own, and game-winning with Basilisk Collar.
Consider that Prodigal Sorcerer was also quite good when it first came out.
Even the lowly Mogg Fanatic was an all star when combat used the stack.
So pinging is good, especially when it's on a cheap and/or hasty body. Repeatable pinging can be really good, and gets much stronger with every additional pinger you have on board.
-X/-X effects are in many ways a stronger version of a ping/burn, especially where creature combat is concerned. Lowering a creature's power makes sure you can keep attacking or blocking without losing your own creatures, and sometimes means you don't even need to block. This flexibility is really valuable sometimes compared to a straight ping, especially when you have a planeswalker to protect.
Think of it this way. Pinging for one blanks a X/1 every turn when you aren't blocking, and -2/-1 can blank a 2/X vanilla repeatedly, on top of what pinging does. That's significantly stronger. A very large percentage of the creatures you'll want to protect your planeswalkers from are X/1 or 2/X, and Liliana stops them both.
Another thing to remember is that her ability lasts until your next turn, so it can be used offensively and defensively at the same time. You can protect your attackers and protect Liliana with a single activation! Just as many people overlooked this fact when evaluating Tamiyo, Field Researcher, I feel like many are overlooking this now.
So far we've established that Liliana, the Last Hope is at least comparable to Cunning Sparkmage. She can't ping opponents, but she does help your creatures to push damage through safely. This alone could be worth 1BB in certain archetypes, although it would be borderline. Her second ability pushes her over the top, however.
For -2, you can mill 2 and then Raise Dead. As some have noted, this is similar to drawing a card. In fact, it is much better as long as your deck supports it. Think of it as a stronger Thought Scour, one of the best graveyard enablers out there. Raise Dead in the right deck is stronger than drawing a card, since you get some selection and have a lower chance of getting a dead card. Because mill synergizes with recursion, the selection offered by this is actually a bit stronger. Raise Dead is worth one mana, and this is a little better than that. Thought Scour is worth one mana, and this is also a little better than that.
I believe it's fair to say that paying 1BB for this effect is a good deal in decks that want it, especially when it comes with a planeswalker attached.
Now, let's look at both abilities together. Liliana, the Last Hope does five things very well with just two abilities.
1) She kills X/1 creatures.
2) She deters attackers.
3) She pushes through blockers.
4) She fills your hand with gas.
5) She fills your graveyard.
She does a few other things too, such as allowing Dead Weight, Grasp of Darkness, and Languish to kill tougher creatures. She is very strong alongside Languish.
Her ultimate is okay, and with proper support can be activated, but isn't why you play her.
Let's compare her to Chandra, Pyromaster.
Chandra, Pyromaster costs 2RR and has 4 loyalty, while Liliana, the Last Hope costs 1BB and has 3 loyalty. This is comparable, but I give the edge to Liliana.
Chandra's +1 can ping a creature for 1, ping a player for 1, and disable a blocker. Liliana's +1 can also kill X/1 creatures and helps to push through creature damage. On top of that, it protects you and Liliana, and can help deal with regenerators and indestructibles. The abilities are comparable.
Chandra's second ability costs no loyalty and draws you a card as long as you play it that turn. Liliana's costs 2 loyalty and also can give you a card, as well as mill you for 2. Both abilities can whiff, and will whiff more or less depending on your deck. Liliana's milling can be powerful if you can abuse your graveyard, and her ability is more reliable at drawing you gas as long as your deck has enough creatures.
In addition, you are not forced to cast the card she gives you that turn. Chandra's advantage is that her ability doesn't cost you loyalty, so you can use it every turn. For every card you draw with Liliana, you can draw 3 with Chandra, provided that she lives that long. Those turns aren't wasted with Liliana though, as you are still giving a creature Weakness, and if you are killing them outright, you are still gaining card advantage.
Chandra's ultimate, like Liliana's, can be powerful as long as you build around it. It's harder to activate though, since Chandra isn't as good at protecting herself.
It looks to me that Liliana, the Last Hope is at least as good as Chandra, Pyromaster, except she costs 1 less mana. How much better is this? That depends, but consider a few comparisons.
Lightning Bolt vs Lightning Strike
Llanowar Elves vs Leaf Gilder
Fellwar Stone vs Darksteel Ingot
Tarmogoyf vs Leatherback Baloth
Dark Confidant vs Dark Tutelage
Terminate vs Murder
Counterspell vs Cancel
Concentrate vs Petals of Insight
Wrath of God vs End Hostilities
The cards in the first group are all considered to be good to excellent in multiple formats.
The cards in the second group are considered to be okay, but nothing special. They are not what you build your deck around.
The difference between a top-tier card and a filler card is often a single mana.
If Chandra, Pyromaster is an okay card, but nothing special, how good would it be if it cost one less mana?
Liliana, the Last Hope might turn out to be better than you expect!
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
But I was looking at this and was all like... Bunk. It really feels like wizards is pushing graveyard matters. Maybe in standard, but this to me at first glance seems weak in modern and totally outclassed in legacy for graveyard shenanigans.
Oh yes, abrupt decay.
Her oath is pretty nice. "Each opponent". Seems like that was thrown in for commander. Not that it's bad or anything.
The +1 can blank. How is that relevant for a pw that starts at 3 loyalty?
The -2 is only card advantage if you hit a creature. Realistically, you won't have a creature in the yard the first few turns, so you can't even use the -2 except for mill(which is really bad).
The ultimate costs 7 and is underpowered. Mass tokens don't always end the game and this one needs several turns past the ultimate to make them.
It's funny how you say to not be "that guy". Well judging from those past threads, it seems that "that guy" is the general consensus of mtgs. It looks like the general consensus on this card is positive, so what are the odds that all of you are wrong about this card and it ends up being terrible
EDIT: Looks like I was that guy.
-Chandra Nalaar