In this case this card says "target opponent" while Donate says "target player", which may make it just outside the "spirit" of the Reserved List and makes this not a functional reprint as you can not give your cards to teammates.
Well the thing is with Donate is if you steal something you can donate it to yourself. With this red card you can't. Yeah that may be an odd case but you have that option. This red card just gives crap away.
Or, if we're lucky, this might be them tearing the Reserved List down slightly, but that is highly unlikely.
Well the thing is with Donate is if you steal something you can donate it to yourself. With this red card you can't. Yeah that may be an odd case but you have that option. This red card just gives crap away.
Here's the thing. This deal about 'Donate is fringe better in multiplayer and fringe target-self scenario' is minuscule.
In fact, the 'target opponent' clause arguably makes the card better when you consider the major general intention of a deck built around exploiting the card.
How? Well because the attempt to change controller of a suicidal card can be thwarted by a whole family of effects like Reverberate or Commandeer.
This family of card effects is much less fringe than the friendly multiplayer situation brought up, and has much greater competitive consequence.
Competitive value of cards by the way is what drives the monetary value. And even if Reverberate effects are fringe, they are much more relevant to the card's value competitively.
Imagine if they printed this card.
Ancestry's Call G
Instant
You draw three cards.
It's better than Ancestral Recall for pretty much the same reasons Harmless Offering is better than Donate.
You can Ancestral Recall a teammate in 2HG vintage, after all. So it's totally different, right?
Based on the precedent of Harmless Offering, they are free to do stuff like this. And that's HUGE.
The problem with your argument is that you are exaggerating your example. They could print that card, if they wanted to, but won't because of power problems, at least outside of Commander/Conspiracy sets. Functionally it is a different card. Hell, if they wanted to they could print a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall and it wouldn't go against the Reserved List as the card type is very different than the other.
There is nothing wrong with printing cards close-ish to Reserved List cards, and if they do it more than more power to them. In the case of Reverberate the same "spirit of the reserved list is broken" thing came up as it was close to Fork, only because it was red instead of the blue Twincast that did similar. The "spirit" of the Reserved List is just their way of being too afraid of getting too close, but they should know by now what officially breaks the Reserved List or not.
I don't know why you have an issue with this card anyways besides opening up 4 of them in packs.
Wait, doesn't this card completely violate the reserved list? They've said even colorshifted functional reprint stuff they wouldn't do. What's up?
Whatever they say these are the first two criteria of the policy behind the Reserve List:
Quote from Official Reprint Policy »
Reserved cards are cards that will never be printed again in a functionally identical form.
A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Note that a card has to have "the same [...] mana cost" to be considered a functional identical reprint with regard to this policy. In the past this may have been ollowed more broadly, but colorshifts always have been a valid option. I would have to do some research, but I'm almost certain there even has been a colorshift before. But regardless of whether there has been past precedent or not, now there is precedent and its true to the letter and presumed intent (since the cards are not interchangable in terms of gameplay) of the Reserved List.
This is a nice card and I like going forward with this kind of effect in red - limited as its design space may be. Also... Eldrazi-tail kitten is cute.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
There hasn't been a copy target spell at instant speed for a while. At least one that you can use against opponent's spells. Either stuff you control already geistblast or just make a copy with the same controller meletis charlatan
All of these spells interact favorably with an opposing Donate, and by comparison unfavorably with an opposing Harmless Offering.
These cards are more relevant for affecting the price of a card than casual multiplayer game applications. Especially if the listed cards also answer for example a popular burn strategy in the same metagame.
It does matter. It is significant when you can inch out higher win rates as a result of a technicality.
They're probably just willing to skirt close to the edge of the Reserve List in this case because the original is a comparatively-worthless card to begin with.
Many hardcore collectors would see that as a slippery slope.
"What's next?"
Blue Abeyance with 'target opponent' instead of target player?
Black Anaba Spirit Crafter with 'Minotaur creatures you control get +1/+0'?
White Apocalypse with 'As an additional cost to cast Apocalypse, discard your hand'? Cursed Scroll, 'deals 2 damage to target creature or opponent?' (Now the value's going up a little.) Dream Halls sans 'shares a color' clause Candelabra of Tawnos with 'Untap up to X target lands'?
All cards on the reserved list are on the reserved list together. They are on the same list.
The individual cards do not hold equal value, but the list should mean the same for every card included.
Consider also that some collectors may acquire higher quantities of cheaper reserved cards instead of a moderately expensive reserved card. Some hardcore collectors out there may have binders full of 'comparatively worthless' reserved cards like Covetous Dragon or Masticore, or Metalworker.
The point of the Reserved List is to support those cards holding and/or gaining value, and protect those cards from losing value in the future.
To that end, Harmless Offering is already the most significant card in this entire set.
R&D must be aware of this, and with that in mind doesn't the name of the card strike anyone else as a little coy?
I know there are cards that copy spells but I guess I should have been more specific and meant regular sets. Out of those you said the last one was Curse of Echoes from regular sets. Granted Dualcaster mage got reprinted in EMA and we got aethersnatch in commander2015, there hasn't been much spell copying that you can pick whatever spell.
Is Harmless Offering clearly better than Donate? Probably not. Harmless Offering by itself is much limited than Donate. Now if you are throwing counters and answers and crap... it almost goes the same way as "well this card sucks because it dies to removal." Type of thing.
But I agree withat in terms of that this is probably going to "trigger" collectors.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
Respectively, those (1) don't scale all that impressively in EDH, (2) don't work any more because of the oracle wording, and (3) don't work any more because of the change to the commander rules.
So...bad examples.
Imo only bad zedruu decks run must-donate cards. I'd much rather give away a moat, pendrell mists, divine presence, etc. which are still useful if I can't keep zedruu on the field.
Granted Illusions is not effective in EDH, but how are the other two not? I'm not seeing what you're saying about Lash: if I donate it they're still having to exile their library. Also, doesn't dawn still shut down access to non white colors of mana?
Edit: read up more and now I see how it's useless in Zedruu as a result of the change. I'm a sad panda.
Yeah I'm impressed by R&D's willingness to cut it this close, and I think it bodes very well for the future of the game.
They could have very easily costed this thing 2RR or something to be safe, and we know they like playing safe. I don't think anyone was expecting this card after Soul Seperator.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
In this case this card says "target opponent" while Donate says "target player", which may make it just outside the "spirit" of the Reserved List and makes this not a functional reprint as you can not give your cards to teammates.
Well the thing is with Donate is if you steal something you can donate it to yourself. With this red card you can't. Yeah that may be an odd case but you have that option. This red card just gives crap away.
Or, if we're lucky, this might be them tearing the Reserved List down slightly, but that is highly unlikely.
Well the thing is with Donate is if you steal something you can donate it to yourself. With this red card you can't. Yeah that may be an odd case but you have that option. This red card just gives crap away.
Here's the thing. This deal about 'Donate is fringe better in multiplayer and fringe target-self scenario' is minuscule.
In fact, the 'target opponent' clause arguably makes the card better when you consider the major general intention of a deck built around exploiting the card.
How? Well because the attempt to change controller of a suicidal card can be thwarted by a whole family of effects like Reverberate or Commandeer.
This family of card effects is much less fringe than the friendly multiplayer situation brought up, and has much greater competitive consequence.
Competitive value of cards by the way is what drives the monetary value. And even if Reverberate effects are fringe, they are much more relevant to the card's value competitively.
Imagine if they printed this card.
Ancestry's Call G
Instant
You draw three cards.
It's better than Ancestral Recall for pretty much the same reasons Harmless Offering is better than Donate.
You can Ancestral Recall a teammate in 2HG vintage, after all. So it's totally different, right?
Based on the precedent of Harmless Offering, they are free to do stuff like this. And that's HUGE.
It is kinda funny that you mention that Harmless Offering is setting any kind of precedent, when a card you used as an example is actually much closer example and actually did set that precedent, with no falling skies or anything. It is not functionally the same, so its fine. If you want to complain about it, necro a thread from M13.
Yeah I'm impressed by R&D's willingness to cut it this close, and I think it bodes very well for the future of the game.
They could have very easily costed this thing 2RR or something to be safe, and we know they like playing safe. I don't think anyone was expecting this card after Soul Seperator.
Nice going R&D =)
Why exactly do you think this is strange with soul separator?
Just that soul separator was one of their 'strong on flavor, soft on push' cards that disappointed people.
Harmless Offering on the other hand is a home run
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Why exactly do you think this is strange with soul separator?
I think what he's saying is that Soul Separator is an example of them "playing it safe" because it is severely nerfed by high activation cost and needing to be sacrificed.
It's Modern fodder and will find a home in some casual decks, there's people that are going to be trying to break this card for a few years and we might see something. I feel that this is probably one of the better "junk" cards in the game as with One With Nothing. Soul Splicer card was bad, this is a "good" bad card that has limited effect but can build an entire archetype potentially in Standard and/or Modern. That is worth the potential of having the cards sit for a number of years until the right cards are put together in the right deck. Even if it's tier 2.
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I think some of the confusion about this versus donate and the reserve list is due to people putting words in Maro's mouth. Maro said that Reverberate was considered a mistake because it went against the spirit of the reserve list, and that dropping the color changing to red was not considered enough of a functional change. Notably, he's never said the same thing about Twincast to the best of my knowledge. As far as I'm aware, colorshifting has always been considered okay, just not worth doing as most of the cards are already pretty set in their colors/way too powerful to print.
Wizards colorshifted Fork as Twincast like ten years ago and nobody blinked an eye, now they colorshift Donate and everybody loses their head? Colorshifted reprints never violated the reserved list, this is nothing new.
It's Modern fodder and will find a home in some casual decks, there's people that are going to be trying to break this card for a few years and we might see something. I feel that this is probably one of the better "junk" cards in the game as with One With Nothing. Soul Splicer card was bad, this is a "good" bad card that has limited effect but can build an entire archetype potentially in Standard and/or Modern. That is worth the potential of having the cards sit for a number of years until the right cards are put together in the right deck. Even if it's tier 2.
This is so true. This card will be waiting for the next illusions of grandeur to come along and make a decent modern deck.
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The problem with your argument is that you are exaggerating your example. They could print that card, if they wanted to, but won't because of power problems, at least outside of Commander/Conspiracy sets. Functionally it is a different card. Hell, if they wanted to they could print a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall and it wouldn't go against the Reserved List as the card type is very different than the other.
There is nothing wrong with printing cards close-ish to Reserved List cards, and if they do it more than more power to them. In the case of Reverberate the same "spirit of the reserved list is broken" thing came up as it was close to Fork, only because it was red instead of the blue Twincast that did similar. The "spirit" of the Reserved List is just their way of being too afraid of getting too close, but they should know by now what officially breaks the Reserved List or not.
I don't know why you have an issue with this card anyways besides opening up 4 of them in packs.
Whatever they say these are the first two criteria of the policy behind the Reserve List:
Note that a card has to have "the same [...] mana cost" to be considered a functional identical reprint with regard to this policy. In the past this may have been ollowed more broadly, but colorshifts always have been a valid option. I would have to do some research, but I'm almost certain there even has been a colorshift before. But regardless of whether there has been past precedent or not, now there is precedent and its true to the letter and presumed intent (since the cards are not interchangable in terms of gameplay) of the Reserved List.
This is a nice card and I like going forward with this kind of effect in red - limited as its design space may be. Also... Eldrazi-tail kitten is cute.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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I know there are cards that copy spells but I guess I should have been more specific and meant regular sets. Out of those you said the last one was Curse of Echoes from regular sets. Granted Dualcaster mage got reprinted in EMA and we got aethersnatch in commander2015, there hasn't been much spell copying that you can pick whatever spell.
Is Harmless Offering clearly better than Donate? Probably not. Harmless Offering by itself is much limited than Donate. Now if you are throwing counters and answers and crap... it almost goes the same way as "well this card sucks because it dies to removal." Type of thing.
But I agree withat in terms of that this is probably going to "trigger" collectors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
Granted Illusions is not effective in EDH, but how are the other two not? I'm not seeing what you're saying about Lash: if I donate it they're still having to exile their library. Also, doesn't dawn still shut down access to non white colors of mana?
Edit: read up more and now I see how it's useless in Zedruu as a result of the change. I'm a sad panda.
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They could have very easily costed this thing 2RR or something to be safe, and we know they like playing safe. I don't think anyone was expecting this card after Soul Seperator.
Nice going R&D =)
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
Also good art for once yay!
It is kinda funny that you mention that Harmless Offering is setting any kind of precedent, when a card you used as an example is actually much closer example and actually did set that precedent, with no falling skies or anything. It is not functionally the same, so its fine. If you want to complain about it, necro a thread from M13.
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Why exactly do you think this is strange with soul separator?
Harmless Offering on the other hand is a home run
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
I think what he's saying is that Soul Separator is an example of them "playing it safe" because it is severely nerfed by high activation cost and needing to be sacrificed.
If only they still did flavor text like the old days.
Just like how I wish that invented flavor text for Wheel of Fortune ("I'd like to buy a 'Æ.'") was real.
Anyway, Steel Golem is still good Donate fodder.
My 720 Peasant Cube
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Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
KITTY!
This is so true. This card will be waiting for the next illusions of grandeur to come along and make a decent modern deck.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath