Wow, very disappointed by the common dual lands. Almost any other land cycle would have made that MSRP easier to swallow but now I'll just pick a few singles.
I love cracking packs, and if I was going to spend $10 a piece, I wanted something of value as a dual land. I can get the refuge duals for practically nothing at my local LGS.
Every set is NOT $10 msrp and limited print run (meaning jacked up prices and Wizards knows it).
There are like 18 rares and mythics that can reasonably get you back the price of the pack (obviously some of these will get you substantially more than the price of the pack). That's pretty bad in what's being billed as a premium set.
If you just look at the preorder prices of the most expensive rares, Wasteland ($75) and Entomb ($55), they basically dictate that there have to be 11 worthless rares (like cents value). If you want rares to be worth at least $4 a piece, it takes 18 such rares at $4.
That's just off the two most expensive rares, ignoring all mythics. How do you expect a median=average value of $10 a pack?
Do people just not want those cards printed? Would we have a happier topic today if they didn't reprint Mana Vault, Karakas, Jace, Force of Will, Wasteland, etc. ?
Premium doesn't mean "more pack are worth their EV". It's premium because the packs are worth more. If you made this a $4 pack, you would have 30 rares and mythics that paid for the pack with many of those paying for well more than one pack, and you would have uncommons that would also pay for the entire pack. That's all but three of the rares/mythics (the other ones haven't been put on MTGGoldfish yet).
~10% of the rares from Shadows over Innistrad pay for the pack.
Entomb is already down to $15.99 on SCG and will continue to fall. Many of the rares will lose a lot of value b/c their price was tied to scarcity rather than playability. Also, a lot of people are not going to jump into Legacy or Vintage b/c of this set which means that a lot of prices will take a long time to recover (if ever). It is not that people want just expensive cards, they want fun and/or nostalgic cards. This set has too many modern reprints (Hondens, for example) that would have been better in a Modern Masters set. Worldly tutor could have been in instead of Green sun's zenith to complete the cycle and save GSZ for the next set. Personally, I would have rather had white/black shadow instead of g/w enchantments (most of the enchantments are lame except for Faith's fetters, rancor and abundant growth). I enjoyed the online Vintage Masters more for the nostalgia than this set. I would have loved to have a foil Erg Raider, Jeweled Bird or Sorceress Queen. It would have been cool to have a blood lust or crumble (instead of nature's claim). So, in my opinion, they made an ok set when they could have made a great set even with the secondary market and expensive card restrictions.
Wow, very disappointed by the common dual lands. Almost any other land cycle would have made that MSRP easier to swallow but now I'll just pick a few singles.
I love cracking packs, and if I was going to spend $10 a piece, I wanted something of value as a dual land. I can get the refuge duals for practically nothing at my local LGS.
As much as I was hoping for a Rishadan Port reprint, were people really expecting another whole set of Rare dual lands of some type? I, for one, am relieved that the dual land cycle in the set is at Common. There's a lot of stuff out of this set I want, and I really don't want to be opening any rare dual land cycles if it's not ZEN fetches at this point. Everything else is reasonably accessible or not really worth the rare slot in this set. There's tons of other things I'd rather be opening in this set than the Tempest lands, Shocklands, or even allied Fetchlands. Those are easy to get. Go ahead and claim a common land cycle makes the pack not worth it, but that doesn't make much sense to me given how accessible everything not on the Reserved List is at the moment other than ZEN fetches, which will probably show up in a Standard product.
A little question to people claiming that there are many unjustified rarity upshifts: how many times have you drafted the set trying to see if Imperious Perfect, Mother of Runes and the like are ok at uncommon? Things aren't always obscure, if they put bombs at uncommon and others were shifted it's because here they think they make sense as they are now.
I think most people here know and realize that the upshifts happened because it was designed to be drafted. Most of the frustration comes from Wizard's insisting on applying the gimmick of draft design to these sets, when they're more concerned about just being able to obtain cards which are becoming further and further out of reach.
I'll admit the set as a whole looks fun to draft, but how much am I going to get to draft this? My local store is getting 32 boxes in the first wave (assuming there's even going to be a second) and had to limit it to 2 boxes per customer for that wave because so many wanted to preorder. It's a very limited print run, so past the first couple weeks of this being out, there's not even going to be a supply left to draft with. Other than the side event at a Grand Prix, you won't see this being drafted in most stores past the first month of this being released.
With all that in mind, the question I have to ask is if it's really worth making players unhappy by upshifting Uncommons to Rare in their $10-$12 packs just so they can feel good about designing a draft format that will only see play for a month before the supply dries up.
The second most expensive rare after wasteland I think is top preordering for ~$25
Oh sorry, the thing I was looking at was labeling them with TCG Mid, which obviously isn't accurate in this scenario. It's still a fact that any set like this will be skewed right in value, because the distance between your lower bound ($0) and average ($10) is much smaller than the distance between average and current upper limit (no card will end up higher than $120).
So with most of the focus being on the ridiculous up-rarity shifts, can we take a moment to appreciate the pauper additions? elite vanguard, warden of evos isle, and desperate ravings are the ones I immediately noticed. Any that I am missing?
Here's the full list of cards downgraded to common:
Honorable Mentions: Kird Ape - I believe this will be the first time it's released online as a common. Elephant Guide - Common in a paper set for the first time. Originally downgraded to common for Vintage Masters.
As an mtgo-only player (I live in Cambodia, so I don't have the option of playing physical magic), I second everything Call1me1dragon had to say about the implications of the set for mtgo. It's funny, because I can tell he created an account just to vent on this set. I've done the same lol. I was really, really expecting Rishadan Port to be in this set. It's great that Daze is in, as it was above 20 tix before, but at uncommon it'll be going for less than 1 tix. There is no way to recoup what you pay each draft from cards that you get from this set. For mtgo, I think it's $6.99 per pack. Still, this set is nothing compared to Vintage Masters, which was basically a wet dream for magic players (Power 9, duals, etc.). This set is going to be a total flop on mtgo, where I think wizard's profit margin is likely amazing. I see how it is though. They're probably planning to release a masters set every year and thus are holding back. Next year will be MM3. The year after will be EM2 and so forth. Maybe we'll get Rishadan Port or Show and Tell the next time around.
With such disappointing value at rare/mythic, this is going to have the same results as in MM2: chase cards (FoW, Wasteland) will soak up most of the value for the set, meaning their prices aren't likely to drop, while the casual rares in the 2-10 range tank. Dealers and buyers will have to keep the overall value of the set propped up, so the only real benefit for players will be for some of the commons/uncommons with availability issues or for new foil printings.
Once again, I'm disappointed that Wizards is clearly uninterested in actually reducing some of the insane secondary market prices for entry into these formats. They have no incentive to make Legacy or Modern more accessible, since Standard is their cash cow and they want it to be relatively accessible. They keep saying they wanted Modern to be relatively accessible, but MM1 and 2 have shown how little these reprints help the real value cards - I doubt Goyf ever drops below its current value even if it's reprinted in MM3 (which I'm starting to doubt).
This makes me think it's less and less likely we'll see the Zen fetches in the new block, and that lots of Modern staples that need reprints (Liliana, Snapcaster, Blood Moon, Horizon Canopy, the list goes on) will be left out of MM3 or upshifted to Mythic. They've also shown they're afraid to put these cards in supplemental products to keep propping up the secondary market. If you haven't bought into Modern yet and want to, I don't expect any reprints to come soon, and when they do I doubt the costs will drop much.
Very disappointing implications for Wizards' reprint policies for these formats going forward.
somehow I feel dissapointed, Got some great cards, but those lands, nothing to do with legacy vintage or even EDH And also it seems like they are really trying to push this set as a Draft set with all the elfs and other sorts of synergy, but be realistic, how many ppl will or can even afford to draft this set??
Also this is supose to be a set full of eternal cards?..I'm seeing a lot of sh*t cards that have nothing to do with legacy, vintage or even EDH..or do they include pauper as a eternal format as well?
Every set is NOT $10 msrp and limited print run (meaning jacked up prices and Wizards knows it).
There are like 18 rares and mythics that can reasonably get you back the price of the pack (obviously some of these will get you substantially more than the price of the pack). That's pretty bad in what's being billed as a premium set.
If you just look at the preorder prices of the most expensive rares, Wasteland ($75) and Entomb ($55), they basically dictate that there have to be 11 worthless rares (like cents value). If you want rares to be worth at least $4 a piece, it takes 18 such rares at $4.
That's just off the two most expensive rares, ignoring all mythics. How do you expect a median=average value of $10 a pack?
Do people just not want those cards printed? Would we have a happier topic today if they didn't reprint Mana Vault, Karakas, Jace, Force of Will, Wasteland, etc. ?
Premium doesn't mean "more pack are worth their EV". It's premium because the packs are worth more. If you made this a $4 pack, you would have 30 rares and mythics that paid for the pack with many of those paying for well more than one pack, and you would have uncommons that would also pay for the entire pack. That's all but three of the rares/mythics (the other ones haven't been put on MTGGoldfish yet).
~10% of the rares from Shadows over Innistrad pay for the pack.
They could have better rares and print to demand. And we don't need a median of $10 - but a median of $1.50 absolutely BLOWS. Having a bunch of sought-after rares in the $5-10 range would be very helpful, and not upshifting random uncommons would also go a long way in removing the sting of this set.
Also, where are you seeing wasteland at $75 preorder? You're getting ripped off. It's $55 TCG mid. Entomb is $30.
I will never understand why people think Wizards would ever make a set that had all playable and valuable cards. That's not what makes a good draft format, and it's not going to keep the game healthy. If you want to play a game with little to no long term value that reprints all it's money cards at low rarity so the little kids don't feel left out, go play Yugioh. Wizards has to balance playability, collectability, and their own business value and that's way more than any average player cares about. Almost all anyone wants here is money cards for nothing and it will never happen.
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"It's like some kind of Voltron... made of elephants??"
As an online player, I feel like I've been lied to/betrayed by WotC. Rishadan Port is cheapest at $188.00 online. How are they trying to encourage access to Eternal formats with that?
No Careful Study, Cabal Ritual, Cephalid Colisseum, Nether Spirit, Oath of Druids, Chainer's Edict, Aquamoeba, Circular Logic, Astral Slide, Mirage Fetchlands, Pyrostatic Pillar, Gemstone Mine, Reanimate, Contagion, Priest of Titania, Lotus Petal or Goblin Matron.
Their selection of $0.50-2 and $4-10 commons and uncommons could have been much better, their selection of bulk rares could have been much better, they could at least have given us stuff that does not have a Modern border reprint and is played in Commander or Cube, instead we get a *****load of cards from the past 7 years that are readily avaliable in bulk binders and dime bins.
Anyone who buys this set above MSRP should rather use that money to threat their gambling addiction.
At least Konami had the balls to publicly state they went pachinko because gambling pays more than gaming.
As an online player, I feel like I've been lied to/betrayed by WotC. Rishadan Port is cheapest at $188.00 online. How are they trying to encourage access to Eternal formats with that?
Not to mention how bad the EV is on this set online even at $7 a pack.
Wasteland is only really high cost card and it recently saw a reprint online.
Other than that the best thing this set does is hopefully bring the price of Daze down to something decent.
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I love cracking packs, and if I was going to spend $10 a piece, I wanted something of value as a dual land. I can get the refuge duals for practically nothing at my local LGS.
Entomb is already down to $15.99 on SCG and will continue to fall. Many of the rares will lose a lot of value b/c their price was tied to scarcity rather than playability. Also, a lot of people are not going to jump into Legacy or Vintage b/c of this set which means that a lot of prices will take a long time to recover (if ever). It is not that people want just expensive cards, they want fun and/or nostalgic cards. This set has too many modern reprints (Hondens, for example) that would have been better in a Modern Masters set. Worldly tutor could have been in instead of Green sun's zenith to complete the cycle and save GSZ for the next set. Personally, I would have rather had white/black shadow instead of g/w enchantments (most of the enchantments are lame except for Faith's fetters, rancor and abundant growth). I enjoyed the online Vintage Masters more for the nostalgia than this set. I would have loved to have a foil Erg Raider, Jeweled Bird or Sorceress Queen. It would have been cool to have a blood lust or crumble (instead of nature's claim). So, in my opinion, they made an ok set when they could have made a great set even with the secondary market and expensive card restrictions.
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As much as I was hoping for a Rishadan Port reprint, were people really expecting another whole set of Rare dual lands of some type? I, for one, am relieved that the dual land cycle in the set is at Common. There's a lot of stuff out of this set I want, and I really don't want to be opening any rare dual land cycles if it's not ZEN fetches at this point. Everything else is reasonably accessible or not really worth the rare slot in this set. There's tons of other things I'd rather be opening in this set than the Tempest lands, Shocklands, or even allied Fetchlands. Those are easy to get. Go ahead and claim a common land cycle makes the pack not worth it, but that doesn't make much sense to me given how accessible everything not on the Reserved List is at the moment other than ZEN fetches, which will probably show up in a Standard product.
I think most people here know and realize that the upshifts happened because it was designed to be drafted. Most of the frustration comes from Wizard's insisting on applying the gimmick of draft design to these sets, when they're more concerned about just being able to obtain cards which are becoming further and further out of reach.
I'll admit the set as a whole looks fun to draft, but how much am I going to get to draft this? My local store is getting 32 boxes in the first wave (assuming there's even going to be a second) and had to limit it to 2 boxes per customer for that wave because so many wanted to preorder. It's a very limited print run, so past the first couple weeks of this being out, there's not even going to be a supply left to draft with. Other than the side event at a Grand Prix, you won't see this being drafted in most stores past the first month of this being released.
With all that in mind, the question I have to ask is if it's really worth making players unhappy by upshifting Uncommons to Rare in their $10-$12 packs just so they can feel good about designing a draft format that will only see play for a month before the supply dries up.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Oh sorry, the thing I was looking at was labeling them with TCG Mid, which obviously isn't accurate in this scenario. It's still a fact that any set like this will be skewed right in value, because the distance between your lower bound ($0) and average ($10) is much smaller than the distance between average and current upper limit (no card will end up higher than $120).
Honorable Mentions:
Kird Ape - I believe this will be the first time it's released online as a common.
Elephant Guide - Common in a paper set for the first time. Originally downgraded to common for Vintage Masters.
Once again, I'm disappointed that Wizards is clearly uninterested in actually reducing some of the insane secondary market prices for entry into these formats. They have no incentive to make Legacy or Modern more accessible, since Standard is their cash cow and they want it to be relatively accessible. They keep saying they wanted Modern to be relatively accessible, but MM1 and 2 have shown how little these reprints help the real value cards - I doubt Goyf ever drops below its current value even if it's reprinted in MM3 (which I'm starting to doubt).
This makes me think it's less and less likely we'll see the Zen fetches in the new block, and that lots of Modern staples that need reprints (Liliana, Snapcaster, Blood Moon, Horizon Canopy, the list goes on) will be left out of MM3 or upshifted to Mythic. They've also shown they're afraid to put these cards in supplemental products to keep propping up the secondary market. If you haven't bought into Modern yet and want to, I don't expect any reprints to come soon, and when they do I doubt the costs will drop much.
Very disappointing implications for Wizards' reprint policies for these formats going forward.
Also this is supose to be a set full of eternal cards?..I'm seeing a lot of sh*t cards that have nothing to do with legacy, vintage or even EDH..or do they include pauper as a eternal format as well?
Wall of omens? why tho?
They could have better rares and print to demand. And we don't need a median of $10 - but a median of $1.50 absolutely BLOWS. Having a bunch of sought-after rares in the $5-10 range would be very helpful, and not upshifting random uncommons would also go a long way in removing the sting of this set.
Also, where are you seeing wasteland at $75 preorder? You're getting ripped off. It's $55 TCG mid. Entomb is $30.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Multi's generally exempt.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
WWhiteW - 38 cards
18 Common
12 Uncommon
7 Rare
1 Mythic
UBlueU - 38 cards
18 Common
12 Uncommon
6 Rare
2 Mythic
BBlackB - 39 cards
18 Common
12 Uncommon
7 Rare
2 Mythic
RRedR - 38 cards
18 Common
12 Uncommon
6 Rare
2 Mythic
GGreenG - 39 cards
18 Common
12 Uncommon
7 Rare
2 Mythic
WUBRGMulticoloredWUBRG - 22 cards
10 Uncommon
10 Rare
2 Mythic
CArtifactC - 18 cards
1 Common
9 Uncommon
6 Rare
2 Mythic
CLandC - 14 cards
10 Common
1 Uncommon
2 Rare
1 Mythic
All in on reanimator I suppose, at least there are some nice targets.
I went from bummed that I didn't preorder a box, to glad.
Credit goes to Brofoux for the Sig pic.
Current Modern Deck
Black Licorice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11006564#post11006564
Their selection of $0.50-2 and $4-10 commons and uncommons could have been much better, their selection of bulk rares could have been much better, they could at least have given us stuff that does not have a Modern border reprint and is played in Commander or Cube, instead we get a *****load of cards from the past 7 years that are readily avaliable in bulk binders and dime bins.
Anyone who buys this set above MSRP should rather use that money to threat their gambling addiction.
At least Konami had the balls to publicly state they went pachinko because gambling pays more than gaming.
Not to mention how bad the EV is on this set online even at $7 a pack.
Wasteland is only really high cost card and it recently saw a reprint online.
Other than that the best thing this set does is hopefully bring the price of Daze down to something decent.