Yes I did take the time to post thanks Bazaar of Baghdad. To Canadian Guy of Wrath lol. "Your entitled" Huh...everytime I read this I laugh at the people saying it. Very simply put if wizards doesn't print the old cards that are way too expensive. Then people are going to find other ways to get that card. "Counterfeiting" I could get an exact copy of imperial seal shipped to me for $5, no one would ever know the difference. It's cardboard vs cardboard, your trying to make the comparison of lobster vs discount mystery meat in a can, which is completely wrong. There is an except-able level of expense to the game of magic. We all know magic is an expensive hobby. Then there are wacky prices. Imperial seal is very clear example of a wacky price. The current low price on TCGplayer for an english version is $800. That's absurd. I would MUCH rather have wizards re-print old cards rather than getting fake copies. But wizards continues to create a scenario where most of their player base can't get new copies of a card from them. I really like this set """IF"""" I could buy it at $4 a pack. Since it's going to be $10-$15 a pack the value distribution should be much higher than it is.
Considering the pack EV is currently ~$8.34 according to MTGGoldfish, you saying you would buy it for $4 a pack isn't very meaningful.
Don't forget that EV isn't everything when evaluating if it is worth it to crack packs. You also have to take into account the value repartition between commons, uncommons, rares and mythics. Something that this set, just like MM2, seems to fail quite badly at. While $4 a pack seems exaggerated, so is $10 or more.
Actually, the Goldfish article mentioned specifically says that Wizards did a good job of giving value at lower rarities (commons and uncommons).
the $8.34 mentioned for EV is only if you plan to sell everything at buylist pricing. Retail pricing per box is closer to $11 / pack.
All in all, Wizards could have done a better job in choosing what to reprint, but the set itself looks like a lot of fun to draft and does inject some more cards into the market that were otherwise hard to find.
Again, I suggest everyone read the goldfish article that complains why not every card can be worth $10.
They did a better job than MM2015 for sure, but that's not saying much. I can't find an article for the EV of the original Modern Masters set on MTGGoldfish but I feel pretty confident that it did a much better job of giving value at lower rarities and that was for a MSRP of $7.
I agree that they could have done a better job, specifically with the selection of rares. Maybe a few less Wastelands and a few more $10-$20 rares to take away some of the lottery aspect. As for the EV of commons/uncommons, Wizards did a fantastic job on MM1, and a very good job in EMA. But if you listen to the tone on this thread, people make it sound like the lower value rarities was identical to MM2015 and that is patently wrong. The commons/uncommons in this set are far closer to MM1 than MM2.
As for the MSRP of $7, that was true but I looked very hard during spoiler season of MM1 and simply couldn't find a box for MSRP. Street value of the boxes of MM1 and EMA are very close at $11-$12 / pack. MSRP doesn't really mean much when the price you pay is the same. Wizards could have had an MSRP of 99 cents and it still would have been $250 / box to buy.
Time will tell but I feel that many of the cards values will drop harder for longer than than the modern masters ones. Box EV should trend closer to $150 unless the Godlfish estimate for foils is low (I think it is a little low, but not so much that it really changes things) Mana Crypt is looking to to maybe hit $50 if SCG is preselling it for $70. Jace never recovered from his FTV printing. Force of Will and Wasteland will keep there value but the rares in general are looking really bad from an EV standpoint. How many rares are going to be woth a pack in a month? 4? Maybe 2?
I am not pure complaints, I have list as long as my arm of foils I want from the set but I am better off buying singles instead of gambling for those.
Also, for you to get the expected value you'd have to be able to sell all the cards you open on the secondary market. Good luck selling some Eternal Masters gainlands reprints, Screeching Skaab, etc.
The other thing to take into account is that if you sell to stores you may only get 50% of actual value.
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Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Can you see the diference in rares and why theres a problem?The first group aren't high profile cards but they are great overral and deserves it while the bottom group is insulting and just make you feel bad in drafts or opening a pack.
There is lots of decent cards they missed out on, not everything has to be worth money or even be playable in legacy, but there is no excuse for some of the jank considering all the other cards that could have been here:
There is lots of decent cards they missed out on, not everything has to be worth money or even be playable in legacy, but there is no excuse for some of the jank considering all the other cards that could have been here:
Can you see the diference in rares and why theres a problem?The first group aren't high profile cards but they are great overral and deserves it while the bottom group is insulting and just make you feel bad in drafts or opening a pack.
Yeah, the feelsbadman moments of people opening these sets will be belligerent and numerous. It's just dumb, but people seem to be buying boxes for $100 more than their worth. Business as usual. Barf.
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
Ok so to first answer the common/uncommon critics, let first consider that pauper players are loosing their proverbial over the reprints here. The common downgrades makes a big deal in that format and several cards could be looking at an uptick in price because of this.
As for value uncommons:
Daze
Counterspell
Pyroblast
Hydro blast
Path
Young Pyro
Wirewood symbiote
Hymn
Cabal Therapy
Innocent Blood
Chain Fricking Lightning
Nekrataal
Faiths Fetters
FoF
Harmonize
Rancor
Bloodbraid elf
Zealous persecution
Relic of progenitus
Mishra's factory
The set has significant value beyond the rares, and while there are a dozen rares you really dont want to open if you decide to grab one or two packs, the value in a box is undeniably there.
I was hoping that wizards could use this new set as a way to reprint cards that eternal* players really use in tournaments...
Maybe with an eye on reprinting something to make more affordable the format for players.
Instead they did not.
A huge portion of them has been printed just to draft and have never seen a legacy tournament at all. (e.g. check the the stupid lands they printed or "seals of" cycle)
Speaking from the perspective of one of those guys who played the Revised set through Ice Age to Visions (or was my last booster from Onslaught? I forget.) I'm not too pleased with the White cards. The power level is fine and Balance is my favorite build-around card, but most of the rest does nothing for me. I feel like every other color got cooler stuff.
The main point I was making was that it's not really worse than modern masters, which is the main thing EMA is being compared to. As far as I can recall we got cloud goat ranger, desperate ritual, echoing truth, electrolyze, e-wit, fairy macabre, grape shot, finks, krosan grip, kodama's reach, lava spike, helix, manamorphone, mind funeral, mulldrifter, redcap, narcomeba, path, pestermite, ravens crime, rift bolt, shrapnel blast, spell snare, thirst for knowledge, trygon predator and remand.
However the only card with real value at the time was remand. Every other common/uncommon was a dollar or less.
It also had all five kamigawa dragons at mythic, plus sarkan and progenitus. By my count at least 20 of the rares were dollar rares.
And the bubble will burst due to casual players selling their collections and just proxying everything instead of supporting the game.
If you're a casual player, WTH are you doing buying Modern / Eternal Masters? This product isn't for you.
People have been proxying Magic for as long as Magic has existed. Unless you're trying to bring your proxies to organized play, or trying to defraud people by selling counterfeit cards on the secondary market, Wizards couldn't care less. That's money they weren't going to make from you anyway. Proxying by casuals is free advertising for WotC. You oughtta get a check from them.
Masters sets are for hardcore players with deep pockets. If you don't fit that profile (and I don't), why fret over it? The vast majority of people who buy / play Magic are never going to see Masters product in the first place. I can't imagine their experience of the game is going to be diminished by the skewed EV of Masters packs.
Am I reading it right? The majority of the cards in EMA are absolutely in the realm of a typical casual player.
Hardcore players with deep pockets? Alot of casual players are hardcore, and some of them have truly deep pockets. You CAN be hardcore and casual. What you state is a misnomer.
I think you'll be mistaken that casual players don't affect the game or even prices. They are the segment that Wizards listens the most.
Am I reading it right? The majority of the cards in EMA are absolutely in the realm of a typical casual player.
Hardcore players with deep pockets? Alot of casual players are hardcore, and some of them have truly deep pockets. You CAN be hardcore and casual. What you state is a misnomer.
I think you'll be mistaken that casual players don't affect the game or even prices. They are the segment that Wizards listens the most.
I only play edh which is considered casual by many. But I like having powerful cards like Sensei Top, Force of will etc. I got a decent paying job that I can splurge a bit for expensive stuff. But when mtg fiance decides to mess with the secondary market with buyouts on stuff that hadn't been printed in a while, I loon forward to these supplemental sets to lower the those prices. But when wizards themselves gouge the player, it makes me look at proxies instead. It is just cardboard afterall. However I would like to support Wizard so they can continue making cards for the game I love. But when you kick me in the balls with crap like the "masters" set... I am going to spend my money elsewhere.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
Oh yeah... Magic, the game where we can call players who spend thousands of dollars building fine-tuned decks for competitive formats "casual" players, because their decks have a Commander.
I mean "casual" in the basic English sense of the word, not the Magic jargon sense of the word.
Casual - Laid back, informal, whatever you wanna call it, doesn't mean he/she don't want, or own tournament/chase cards. Don't underestimate the power of the casual market. That said, I do want affordable cards, live in a world where there isn't incessant hoarding/speculation.
Wizards preys on that market; people are gonna buy the product even if you choose not to. It will take a cultural change, or some financial catastrophe within or outside the mtg economy to shake that cardboard crack.
Oh yeah... Magic, the game where we can call players who spend thousands of dollars building fine-tuned decks for competitive formats "casual" players, because their decks have a Commander.
I mean "casual" in the basic English sense of the word, not the Magic jargon sense of the word.
yeah, "casuals" shouldnt be allowed even to touch any card that is tournament staple, they dont deserve to play them. Totally agree with you
yeah, "casuals" shouldnt be allowed even to touch any card that is tournament staple, they dont deserve to play them. Totally agree with you
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that, if you're ready to drop $200-$300 on a box of Eternal Masters, it's a joke to call yourself a "casual" Magic player.
This is like the guy with a chewing tobacco habit patting himself on the back because he doesn't smoke.
WotC has gone to great lengths to redefine "casual" in regards to Magic, so that those players who like to label themselves "casual" see it fit to spend just as much money as any tournament player. It's silly that I can bring my janky sub-$100 Standard deck to a tournament, get decimated, never come back, yet be considered a more serious Magic player than the dudes in the corner table every night going at each other with their $1000+ "casual" Commander decks. What does this word even mean, anymore?
Long story short, if you have no problem spending $10 / booster, you are in the vast minority of people who buy Magic products, and should maybe think twice about complaining about WotC always screwing the little guy. You're not the little guy. Eternal Masters isn't made for the little guy. The little guy is buying single packs off the rack at Wal-Mart, and will never see an Eternal Masters pack, nor have the opportunity to get burned by opening one.
yet be considered a more serious Magic player than the dudes in the corner table every night going at each other with their $1000+ "casual" Commander decks. What does this word even mean, anymore?
Casual means "not competitive".
You can spend any amount of money on non-competitive magic.
yet be considered a more serious Magic player than the dudes in the corner table every night going at each other with their $1000+ "casual" Commander decks. What does this word even mean, anymore?
Casual means "not competitive".
You can spend any amount of money on non-competitive magic.
Every single card in EMA can (and will) be used casually to some extent.
Agree 100%.
I have a fully loaded Sliver EDH with all 10 ABUR duals, shocks, fetches, and just about everything else. Not because I want to win tournaments, just like cool cards and having a deck that is efficient.
You also need to look at the fact that the deck I mentioned above was made at a time before reserve list caused pricing explosions. No way I'd pay into $250-300 blue duals.
This is why some of us casual players are completely turned off by some of the stuff WotC has released in the last few years. They dangle a few choice cards over our heads, charge $6-10 a pack and deliver a set with only the tiniest number of chase cards. Even as a commander player (as opposed to hardcore Legacy/Modern player), I'm very underwhelmed by this set. WotC shows they want to keep cardboard prices inflated no matter if it's good for the game or not.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Many others...
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I agree that they could have done a better job, specifically with the selection of rares. Maybe a few less Wastelands and a few more $10-$20 rares to take away some of the lottery aspect. As for the EV of commons/uncommons, Wizards did a fantastic job on MM1, and a very good job in EMA. But if you listen to the tone on this thread, people make it sound like the lower value rarities was identical to MM2015 and that is patently wrong. The commons/uncommons in this set are far closer to MM1 than MM2.
As for the MSRP of $7, that was true but I looked very hard during spoiler season of MM1 and simply couldn't find a box for MSRP. Street value of the boxes of MM1 and EMA are very close at $11-$12 / pack. MSRP doesn't really mean much when the price you pay is the same. Wizards could have had an MSRP of 99 cents and it still would have been $250 / box to buy.
I am not pure complaints, I have list as long as my arm of foils I want from the set but I am better off buying singles instead of gambling for those.
My 720 Peasant Cube
The other thing to take into account is that if you sell to stores you may only get 50% of actual value.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
- Eight-and-a-half Tails
- Winter Orb
- Wrath of God
- Necropotence
- Regal Force
- Goblin Charbelcher
And not cards like these that range from Weird rarity Shifts:
- Argothian Enchantress (should have stayed at rare)
- Worldgorger Dragon (same as above)
- Pyrokinesis (Discusting)
- Imperious Perfect (WHY?!)
- Shardless Agent(So why is Bloodbraid Elf an uncomon?)
to downright repulsive reprints that shoudn't even be near this set as a rare:
- Call the Skybreaker
- Giant Solifuge
- Void
- Tarkir gain lands
- Arena Legendaries
- Crater Helion
- Serendib Efreet
- Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Can you see the diference in rares and why theres a problem?The first group aren't high profile cards but they are great overral and deserves it while the bottom group is insulting and just make you feel bad in drafts or opening a pack.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Those will be the hype cards for EMA2, but at least just half of them since they have to save some for EMA3
Yeah, the feelsbadman moments of people opening these sets will be belligerent and numerous. It's just dumb, but people seem to be buying boxes for $100 more than their worth. Business as usual. Barf.
Feel free to tell me yours!
As for value uncommons:
The set has significant value beyond the rares, and while there are a dozen rares you really dont want to open if you decide to grab one or two packs, the value in a box is undeniably there.
Maybe with an eye on reprinting something to make more affordable the format for players.
Instead they did not.
A huge portion of them has been printed just to draft and have never seen a legacy tournament at all. (e.g. check the the stupid lands they printed or "seals of" cycle)
Rarity level is also broken in several cases.
So sad for an old player like me
* for eternal I mean formats that do not rotate
H/W - Website
However the only card with real value at the time was remand. Every other common/uncommon was a dollar or less.
It also had all five kamigawa dragons at mythic, plus sarkan and progenitus. By my count at least 20 of the rares were dollar rares.
This is true.
And the bubble will burst due to casual players selling their collections and just proxying everything instead of supporting the game.
Online stores can only manipulate the market so much before they destroy it.
People have been proxying Magic for as long as Magic has existed. Unless you're trying to bring your proxies to organized play, or trying to defraud people by selling counterfeit cards on the secondary market, Wizards couldn't care less. That's money they weren't going to make from you anyway. Proxying by casuals is free advertising for WotC. You oughtta get a check from them.
Masters sets are for hardcore players with deep pockets. If you don't fit that profile (and I don't), why fret over it? The vast majority of people who buy / play Magic are never going to see Masters product in the first place. I can't imagine their experience of the game is going to be diminished by the skewed EV of Masters packs.
Hardcore players with deep pockets? Alot of casual players are hardcore, and some of them have truly deep pockets. You CAN be hardcore and casual. What you state is a misnomer.
I think you'll be mistaken that casual players don't affect the game or even prices. They are the segment that Wizards listens the most.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I only play edh which is considered casual by many. But I like having powerful cards like Sensei Top, Force of will etc. I got a decent paying job that I can splurge a bit for expensive stuff. But when mtg fiance decides to mess with the secondary market with buyouts on stuff that hadn't been printed in a while, I loon forward to these supplemental sets to lower the those prices. But when wizards themselves gouge the player, it makes me look at proxies instead. It is just cardboard afterall. However I would like to support Wizard so they can continue making cards for the game I love. But when you kick me in the balls with crap like the "masters" set... I am going to spend my money elsewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
I mean "casual" in the basic English sense of the word, not the Magic jargon sense of the word.
With all due respect, you underestimate casual players. We like powerful cards too.
Wizards preys on that market; people are gonna buy the product even if you choose not to. It will take a cultural change, or some financial catastrophe within or outside the mtg economy to shake that cardboard crack.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
yeah, "casuals" shouldnt be allowed even to touch any card that is tournament staple, they dont deserve to play them. Totally agree with you
I'm saying that, if you're ready to drop $200-$300 on a box of Eternal Masters, it's a joke to call yourself a "casual" Magic player.
This is like the guy with a chewing tobacco habit patting himself on the back because he doesn't smoke.
WotC has gone to great lengths to redefine "casual" in regards to Magic, so that those players who like to label themselves "casual" see it fit to spend just as much money as any tournament player. It's silly that I can bring my janky sub-$100 Standard deck to a tournament, get decimated, never come back, yet be considered a more serious Magic player than the dudes in the corner table every night going at each other with their $1000+ "casual" Commander decks. What does this word even mean, anymore?
Long story short, if you have no problem spending $10 / booster, you are in the vast minority of people who buy Magic products, and should maybe think twice about complaining about WotC always screwing the little guy. You're not the little guy. Eternal Masters isn't made for the little guy. The little guy is buying single packs off the rack at Wal-Mart, and will never see an Eternal Masters pack, nor have the opportunity to get burned by opening one.
Casual means "not competitive".
You can spend any amount of money on non-competitive magic.
I've seen casual players use The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mana Crypt, and all manner of ABUR duals because they had them.
Every single card in EMA can (and will) be used casually to some extent.
Agree 100%.
I have a fully loaded Sliver EDH with all 10 ABUR duals, shocks, fetches, and just about everything else. Not because I want to win tournaments, just like cool cards and having a deck that is efficient.
You also need to look at the fact that the deck I mentioned above was made at a time before reserve list caused pricing explosions. No way I'd pay into $250-300 blue duals.
This is why some of us casual players are completely turned off by some of the stuff WotC has released in the last few years. They dangle a few choice cards over our heads, charge $6-10 a pack and deliver a set with only the tiniest number of chase cards. Even as a commander player (as opposed to hardcore Legacy/Modern player), I'm very underwhelmed by this set. WotC shows they want to keep cardboard prices inflated no matter if it's good for the game or not.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB