I will never understand why people think Wizards would ever make a set that had all playable and valuable cards. That's not what makes a good draft format, and it's not going to keep the game healthy. If you want to play a game with little to no long term value that reprints all it's money cards at low rarity so the little kids don't feel left out, go play Yugioh. Wizards has to balance playability, collectability, and their own business value and that's way more than any average player cares about. Almost all anyone wants here is money cards for nothing and it will never happen.
And yet worldwide YuGiOh is more popular than Magic despite having "no long term value". Hmmm, maybe long term value isn't as important to the health of a game as some personally invested collectors might lead us to believe!
Sadly few commons I want and have use for (save for the KTK duals, as my supply for use in new decks has finally just about run out, but if I wanted to pull those from packs rather than buy them in bulk, I could get them from KTK or FRF packs), quite a few uncommons I want, and I have specific decks that would love more than half of the rares and more than half of the mythics. That's actually a pretty good hit rate.
...I wonder what an EMA-CN2-CN2 (or CN2-CN2-EMA) draft format would look like.
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"The true measure of all heroes is not what they achieve, but who they inspire." —Triumph of Gerrard
The Mtgsalvation community has been so enthusiastic throughout the week about this set and so have I. Imagine my surprise to wake up today and check out this thread which is full of negativity. This set is awesome! It has a bunch of junk rares but that doesn't make it worse than any other set.
I feel like the community was getting buzzy around spoiler time but didn't have the courage to share their doubts. How is EV=MSRP bad? How is Necropotence reprint bad?
So with most of the focus being on the ridiculous up-rarity shifts, can we take a moment to appreciate the pauper additions? elite vanguard, warden of evos isle, and desperate ravings are the ones I immediately noticed. Any that I am missing?
Here's the full list of cards downgraded to common:
Honorable Mentions: Kird Ape - I believe this will be the first time it's released online as a common. Elephant Guide - Common in a paper set for the first time. Originally downgraded to common for Vintage Masters.
Thank you for a list, but I noticed mistral charger was missing. I believe THAT is the complete list though. Exciting times for pauper cubers.
I want to riot. Not a single good card today. Set just went from great to below average. Imperous perfect at rare and sphinx at mythic feel like a punch to the face. No port. No berserk. No crucible. No flusterstorm. Im confident my box is no longer worth the msrp and while I expect a reasonable amount of filler once again they overdid it.
What a shock, spoil all the great stuff first couple of days, then show why the set will not sell for 20-25 a pack at the end. Did you seriously expect something different? If the majority of boxes give msrp or better, then prices of singles go down and wizaards do not like it when the collectors/investors cry, or packs will be sold for 20-25 a pack instead of msrp which will also cause whining. This is literally how every spoiler season goes, I am shocked people act surprised over it still...
I have a pre order of a booster box on 200$, should i open it, draft it, save it, cancel it?. Right now i dont know what to do with it, i dont feel i will get my money back on the singles
I would keep or draft it. Though in reality I would probably be keeping to draft it later, but there is a chance that this will probably just keep going up like MM1 did. Part of that will depend on if the format is as fun to draft as MM1 was.
Has anyone not noticed it is a really big deal that Pauper is getting Night's Whisper and Desperate Ravings? I'm excited to be able to play Night's Whisper in back control decks instead of Sign in Blood. Also, mono black decks get way better with 7-8 Sign in Blood effects.
Overall, sure, they had to balance the set for limited and some of the rarity-upshifts are a little weird. The problem is, we don't know what it would be like to draft this format and can't comprehend the rarity upgrades/downgrades without actually playing it ourselves.
I would think Sign in Blood is strictly better as you can use it to also finish the other person off?
My issues are they could of put some more value at mythics and possibly rare, though mythics mostly. They could of increased supply. They knew this was going to be popular not sure why they are tip toeing it. My last issue is that while it mirrors Vintage Masters they got rid of the suicide black archetype from this set.
Apparently this set has an EV of $10.44, which is fine assuming you're paying the price Wizards intended the packs to be sold for.
On the whole this is a bit of a failed experiment that Wizards will learn nothing from and the cycle will continue forever with these "masters" sets.
Is the EV based on current prices for these cards? Because once the price of the less-than-awesome $5-10 rares/uncommons fall (as they are bound to, if MM1 and MM2 are any indication), that EV is going to go way down and will be very very top-heavy, meaning it's 100% lottery. On the other hand, I guess it protects the price of FoW and such nicely...
I will never understand why people think Wizards would ever make a set that had all playable and valuable cards. That's not what makes a good draft format, and it's not going to keep the game healthy. If you want to play a game with little to no long term value that reprints all it's money cards at low rarity so the little kids don't feel left out, go play Yugioh. Wizards has to balance playability, collectability, and their own business value and that's way more than any average player cares about. Almost all anyone wants here is money cards for nothing and it will never happen.
I, personally, am kinda tired of always having to pay for more for cards for constructed (due to rarity shifts) because of limited.
I would think Sign in Blood is strictly better as you can use it to also finish the other person off?
Sign in blood is BB instead of 1B.
In black control and/or mono black it doesn't really matter. Are there any decks playing sign in blood which just splash black? I think most of the decks are either heavy black or not black at all?
I bought a box and I'm pretty happy about it. Cards may not be expensive but I'll do some ghost drafting and enjoy the high constructed quality of the set's cards. Overall it seems there are very very few cards that aren't useful in quality casual decks.
Apparently this set has an EV of $10.44, which is fine assuming you're paying the price Wizards intended the packs to be sold for.
On the whole this is a bit of a failed experiment that Wizards will learn nothing from and the cycle will continue forever with these "masters" sets.
Is the EV based on current prices for these cards? Because once the price of the less-than-awesome $5-10 rares/uncommons fall (as they are bound to, if MM1 and MM2 are any indication), that EV is going to go way down and will be very very top-heavy, meaning it's 100% lottery. On the other hand, I guess it protects the price of FoW and such nicely...
Exactly. All the EV will stay in the chase cards, and so their prices aren't going to change much.
I will never understand why people think Wizards would ever make a set that had all playable and valuable cards. That's not what makes a good draft format, and it's not going to keep the game healthy. If you want to play a game with little to no long term value that reprints all it's money cards at low rarity so the little kids don't feel left out, go play Yugioh. Wizards has to balance playability, collectability, and their own business value and that's way more than any average player cares about. Almost all anyone wants here is money cards for nothing and it will never happen.
And yet worldwide YuGiOh is more popular than Magic despite having "no long term value". Hmmm, maybe long term value isn't as important to the health of a game as some personally invested collectors might lead us to believe!
To be fair Yugioh has no popular standard format, so regular reprints are far more needed. In addition OCG (the most popular region of Yugioh.)(Asia, and parts of Oceania) has far less reprints than the TCG (Europe, Americas, part of Oceania) (but in general OCG has better rarities, a card that is similar to what bolt is in MtG was common their, and a rare Equivalant here.)
And in Collector Packs (Dual Decks not be worse comparison, if you buy a box (30 dollars) you are supposed to get a competitive casual playable deck out of it), in TCG tend to add 10-20 reprint card to said Collector Packs, for a variety of reasons such as to help porting over exclusive and JumpPromos. (Sense Jump is not sold in Europe, Jump Promos (I suppose Mana Crypt best MtG example I can think of) are illegal. Until a pack or structure deck reprint).
And instead of Promo Prints every month you get a Tourmament Pack for entering each week, this a 3-4 card pack of the engine cards (Sleight of Hand, World Tutors, faithless looting etc), with cheap 'bosses' (Scooze, Thalia, Delver), in terms of original rarity. Then you get a couple big dollar cards (Goyf, The Mind Sculptor, and Stone Forged), as the mythic lotto. And in TCG we get the exclusives that no one wants in our regular packs. (Very bad normals from packs pre-LOB generally). These are based mostly on what was competitive the previous years and needs a reprint because price, errata, unbanning, or sometimes if said card is referenced by a new card in a new pack.
Then Yugioh has a yearly Gold Series (Modern Masters) where competitive and expensive cards from the year or got expensive because of something this year (CoCo, and Eye of Ugin) and general competitive utility card (such as thoughtseize) are given a reprint. However you cannot buy individuals packs and must buy the box (20 dollars) of 3 or 5 packs I forget of 5 cards.
In the TCG we have Megatins which are basicly best of cards from last 2 packs of the previous year and first to packs of the current. And then garuntee a reprint anime nostalgia cards, and a competitive Tourmament card for a niche Archtype that is insanely hard to find (not expensive just hard to find) these clock in at 20.
If a card after all those reprints and is notboss-generic utility card it gets reprinted in a structure deck for 12 dollars. (Intro deck Equivalant, you can, you can buy 2 or 3 and get a meta competitive deck.)
Then you have nostalgia packs which are 2 dollars and filled with garbage, but generally random hard to find garbage. Or card that were just never competitive but people have nostalgia for. And are expensive and thus get tossed in and reprinted.
Regardless this is also why Store do not sell Yugioh singles. And you can only use TCG cards in TCG and OCG cards in OCG. And most Yugioh investment if you know Konami do have a very regularly scheduled reprint time.
That is rarely a wtf moment if follow the patterns. The reason Konami does this is because Yugioh does not have a standard (well Non-Japan Asia does), and does not care about drafting. (Nostalgia Packs are sometimes made to be drafted as an aside). and reprints set are a lot smaller outside Megatins, Gold Series caps at around 50-60 cards being reprinted, and Tourmament packs number 8-20, structure decks are also limited as their can be only around 30 old cards reprinted (5-15 cards in structures deck are bran new and 10-20 are filler while 5 are choice reprints).
Then from collector packs (which cap at 50 in OCG, in which only 10-15 with some exceptions are reprints, 60-75 in TCG and additional cards are reprints or exclusive ports). I mean if that is a good or bad thing up to your interpretion, I like it, but generally it also means that their is a couple sets each year I don't care for. Because they have what I already got. And it makes it hard to sit on cards and trade them later you have quickly flip expensive cards or they will collect dust in a couple years. And best used for rarity trading (a mythic for mythic would be an mtg example). Simply because it turns out mythic are rare, And no card has price security and you just really need that ultra rare cheap mythic.
I'm excited to hopefully get some (hopefully cheap) foils for the cube (Man-o-War, Brainstorm, Worn Powerstone). I'm going to echo the sentiment about the rarity shift, Heritage Druid wouldn't break the format at uncommon. Khans gain life lands were the most boring lands they could have picked. If WOTC really wants to make older formats more accessible they need to not be scared to disrupt the secondary market. Master sets need to reduce the amount of crap rares in it and have much larger print runs (so the packs eventually settle back down to MSRP). I'm not going to pickup a Mana Crypt now that it's $120 instead of $160.
No Careful Study, Cabal Ritual, Cephalid Colisseum, Nether Spirit, Oath of Druids, Chainer's Edict, Aquamoeba, Circular Logic, Astral Slide, Mirage Fetchlands, Pyrostatic Pillar, Gemstone Mine, Reanimate, Contagion, Priest of Titania, Lotus Petal or Goblin Matron.
Their selection of $0.50-2 and $4-10 commons and uncommons could have been much better, their selection of bulk rares could have been much better, they could at least have given us stuff that does not have a Modern border reprint and is played in Commander or Cube, instead we get a *****load of cards from the past 7 years that are readily avaliable in bulk binders and dime bins.
Anyone who buys this set above MSRP should rather use that money to threat their gambling addiction.
At least Konami had the balls to publicly state they went pachinko because gambling pays more than gaming.
Agreed, they could have chosen better bulk - deadbridge shaman, silent departure, glimmerpoint stag, etc. All of those cards could have been replaced with older cards. Overall, this set doesn't feel old-school nostalgic at all. I would have preferred more Portal, Three Kingdoms and pre-modern cards in the set. Boo on a wasted opportunity. Now, I'll just play the pre-release and that is it.
I'm excited to hopefully get some (hopefully cheap) foils for the cube (Man-o-War, Brainstorm, Worn Powerstone). I'm going to echo the sentiment about the rarity shift, Heritage Druid wouldn't break the format at uncommon. Khans gain life lands were the most boring lands they could have picked. If WOTC really wants to make older formats more accessible they need to not be scared to disrupt the secondary market. Master sets need to reduce the amount of crap rares in it and have much larger print runs (so the packs eventually settle back down to MSRP). I'm not going to pickup a Mana Crypt now that it's $120 instead of $160.
The foils are about the most exciting part of this and just about the only thing with the mythics to go after.
Yes legacy players, we hear you. The lack of gainlands in legacy is a big problem. We know that legacy players have been waiting for a gainlands reprint since khans block, so here you go! You're welcome.
I'm excited to hopefully get some (hopefully cheap) foils for the cube (Man-o-War, Brainstorm, Worn Powerstone).
LOL @ "cheap" Foil Brainstorm-
Conspiracy was much more widely printed than this (wit BS at Common),
and it still costs $60.
There is no excuse for how lackluster this last batch of cards is.
I wasn't expecting any more money like Port or Show and Tell,
but I *was* expecting cards that are fun and/or in need of a Modern/Foil printing.
Fie on this release. It was starting to look on par with MM1,
but it manages to come in only slightly better than MM2 (with slightly worse value in the Mythics).
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Yes legacy players, we hear you. The lack of gainlands in legacy is a big problem. We know that legacy players have been waiting for a gainlands reprint since khans block, so here you go! You're welcome.
I never knew my Miracles deck needed Khans gainlands until now. Thanks for opening my eyes wizards!
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And yet worldwide YuGiOh is more popular than Magic despite having "no long term value". Hmmm, maybe long term value isn't as important to the health of a game as some personally invested collectors might lead us to believe!
...I wonder what an EMA-CN2-CN2 (or CN2-CN2-EMA) draft format would look like.
I feel like the community was getting buzzy around spoiler time but didn't have the courage to share their doubts. How is EV=MSRP bad? How is Necropotence reprint bad?
Thank you for a list, but I noticed mistral charger was missing. I believe THAT is the complete list though. Exciting times for pauper cubers.
What a shock, spoil all the great stuff first couple of days, then show why the set will not sell for 20-25 a pack at the end. Did you seriously expect something different? If the majority of boxes give msrp or better, then prices of singles go down and wizaards do not like it when the collectors/investors cry, or packs will be sold for 20-25 a pack instead of msrp which will also cause whining. This is literally how every spoiler season goes, I am shocked people act surprised over it still...
I would keep or draft it. Though in reality I would probably be keeping to draft it later, but there is a chance that this will probably just keep going up like MM1 did. Part of that will depend on if the format is as fun to draft as MM1 was.
I would think Sign in Blood is strictly better as you can use it to also finish the other person off?
My issues are they could of put some more value at mythics and possibly rare, though mythics mostly. They could of increased supply. They knew this was going to be popular not sure why they are tip toeing it. My last issue is that while it mirrors Vintage Masters they got rid of the suicide black archetype from this set.
probably because it just got a GP promo
Disappointed we're getting the Khans gain lands instead of something that needed reprinting
Sign in blood is BB instead of 1B.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Nicol Bolas, a balance of Vorthos and PowerUBR
Nath of the Gilt LeafBG
Others
Squee, Goblin of AwesomenessR
Nekusar, the Mindblazer!UBR
Vela the NightcladUB
I used to be a world champion, but then I took a wolf to the knee. And three Galvanic Blasts to the face.
Concerning when returning to Kamigawa would be acceptable
Is the EV based on current prices for these cards? Because once the price of the less-than-awesome $5-10 rares/uncommons fall (as they are bound to, if MM1 and MM2 are any indication), that EV is going to go way down and will be very very top-heavy, meaning it's 100% lottery. On the other hand, I guess it protects the price of FoW and such nicely...
I, personally, am kinda tired of always having to pay for more for cards for constructed (due to rarity shifts) because of limited.
In black control and/or mono black it doesn't really matter. Are there any decks playing sign in blood which just splash black? I think most of the decks are either heavy black or not black at all?
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Exactly. All the EV will stay in the chase cards, and so their prices aren't going to change much.
where the **** is show and tell??
To be fair Yugioh has no popular standard format, so regular reprints are far more needed. In addition OCG (the most popular region of Yugioh.)(Asia, and parts of Oceania) has far less reprints than the TCG (Europe, Americas, part of Oceania) (but in general OCG has better rarities, a card that is similar to what bolt is in MtG was common their, and a rare Equivalant here.)
And in Collector Packs (Dual Decks not be worse comparison, if you buy a box (30 dollars) you are supposed to get a competitive casual playable deck out of it), in TCG tend to add 10-20 reprint card to said Collector Packs, for a variety of reasons such as to help porting over exclusive and JumpPromos. (Sense Jump is not sold in Europe, Jump Promos (I suppose Mana Crypt best MtG example I can think of) are illegal. Until a pack or structure deck reprint).
And instead of Promo Prints every month you get a Tourmament Pack for entering each week, this a 3-4 card pack of the engine cards (Sleight of Hand, World Tutors, faithless looting etc), with cheap 'bosses' (Scooze, Thalia, Delver), in terms of original rarity. Then you get a couple big dollar cards (Goyf, The Mind Sculptor, and Stone Forged), as the mythic lotto. And in TCG we get the exclusives that no one wants in our regular packs. (Very bad normals from packs pre-LOB generally). These are based mostly on what was competitive the previous years and needs a reprint because price, errata, unbanning, or sometimes if said card is referenced by a new card in a new pack.
Then Yugioh has a yearly Gold Series (Modern Masters) where competitive and expensive cards from the year or got expensive because of something this year (CoCo, and Eye of Ugin) and general competitive utility card (such as thoughtseize) are given a reprint. However you cannot buy individuals packs and must buy the box (20 dollars) of 3 or 5 packs I forget of 5 cards.
In the TCG we have Megatins which are basicly best of cards from last 2 packs of the previous year and first to packs of the current. And then garuntee a reprint anime nostalgia cards, and a competitive Tourmament card for a niche Archtype that is insanely hard to find (not expensive just hard to find) these clock in at 20.
If a card after all those reprints and is notboss-generic utility card it gets reprinted in a structure deck for 12 dollars. (Intro deck Equivalant, you can, you can buy 2 or 3 and get a meta competitive deck.)
Then you have nostalgia packs which are 2 dollars and filled with garbage, but generally random hard to find garbage. Or card that were just never competitive but people have nostalgia for. And are expensive and thus get tossed in and reprinted.
Regardless this is also why Store do not sell Yugioh singles. And you can only use TCG cards in TCG and OCG cards in OCG. And most Yugioh investment if you know Konami do have a very regularly scheduled reprint time.
That is rarely a wtf moment if follow the patterns. The reason Konami does this is because Yugioh does not have a standard (well Non-Japan Asia does), and does not care about drafting. (Nostalgia Packs are sometimes made to be drafted as an aside). and reprints set are a lot smaller outside Megatins, Gold Series caps at around 50-60 cards being reprinted, and Tourmament packs number 8-20, structure decks are also limited as their can be only around 30 old cards reprinted (5-15 cards in structures deck are bran new and 10-20 are filler while 5 are choice reprints).
Then from collector packs (which cap at 50 in OCG, in which only 10-15 with some exceptions are reprints, 60-75 in TCG and additional cards are reprints or exclusive ports). I mean if that is a good or bad thing up to your interpretion, I like it, but generally it also means that their is a couple sets each year I don't care for. Because they have what I already got. And it makes it hard to sit on cards and trade them later you have quickly flip expensive cards or they will collect dust in a couple years. And best used for rarity trading (a mythic for mythic would be an mtg example). Simply because it turns out mythic are rare, And no card has price security and you just really need that ultra rare cheap mythic.
And regular sets never have reprints
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
Agreed, they could have chosen better bulk - deadbridge shaman, silent departure, glimmerpoint stag, etc. All of those cards could have been replaced with older cards. Overall, this set doesn't feel old-school nostalgic at all. I would have preferred more Portal, Three Kingdoms and pre-modern cards in the set. Boo on a wasted opportunity. Now, I'll just play the pre-release and that is it.
The foils are about the most exciting part of this and just about the only thing with the mythics to go after.
LOL @ "cheap" Foil Brainstorm-
Conspiracy was much more widely printed than this (wit BS at Common),
and it still costs $60.
There is no excuse for how lackluster this last batch of cards is.
I wasn't expecting any more money like Port or Show and Tell,
but I *was* expecting cards that are fun and/or in need of a Modern/Foil printing.
No Mirage Fetches? No Disenchant? No Mana Vault?
No Skyshroud Claim? No Deserted Temple? NO DARK RITUAL?!
Fie on this release. It was starting to look on par with MM1,
but it manages to come in only slightly better than MM2 (with slightly worse value in the Mythics).
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I never knew my Miracles deck needed Khans gainlands until now. Thanks for opening my eyes wizards!