Cards like goyf allows them to set a higher MSRP in the first place. In that way, he DOES dictate the price of those packs. It's the same here. But since planechase guarantees you every single plane card in existence instead of randomizing, it is set higher. If Wizards print 2 random plane per pack the MSRP will also be a lot lower.
If you feel that the price is too high, then this product doesn't aim at you.I myself buy the planechase only for the plane. The deck itself is virtually worthless (except the 2012 one which contains new card, and they do include those here). I pay $160 for 80 plane and need to hunt down the other 6 myself, adding to the cost. $150 is a fine deal, and if I don't own planechase already I'll probably pay for it.
Except they gave us 480 cards with DD Anthology and that only cost $100 when here we are getting 326 and somehow it adds up to an extra $50. Even given the planes and their semi rarity, the format isn't all that popular so why make it more expensive when this could mean getting more people into this format and making future installments? For what we are getting there is no excuse for $150.
We are getting about 35% to 40% less than the last Anthology and yet it costs 50% more. How does that make sense? This is the same thing with MM2 compared to MM1 and how they charged more for MM2 even though it was far worse, in almost every way, than its predecessor.
The number of total cards is irrelevant. The cards you get matter. Plane chase cards are expensive, therefore this set costs more. It's that simple. Don't like it? Don't buy it. There are plenty of people like me that have wanted Plane cards and will gladly pay to get all in one place while also getting other cards. This is a deal to me. It has been said over and over on this forum, not every set is for every person.
The secondary market value of the plane cards should be irrelevant for the price of this. I understand this isn't for everyone, but that isn't the discussion. The discussion is that the price is too high for what you are getting, even if this is for any one person and even if they can easily afford it. Just because it is for you doesn't mean you should pay more than you should be.
I know some people seem to be hung up on the number of cards or number of decks and their comparative value vs. each other and how in their mind with less cards and less decks, etc. that the planechase anthology box set shouldn't be anymore than the last anthology box set at $100. There is however a flaw in that argument, the biggest one in this case, being that wizards tends to look more at the inherent MSRP of the products themselves if sold in their original form to determine the MSRP of these products rather than the number of cards, or number of decks, etc.
So, lets break it down again (I already broke down why $150 makes perfectly logical sense from an MSRP perspective on the last page of this thread based on the comparative MSRP of such products and basically combining them together to get to the $150 price).
The duel decks tend to have an MSRP of $19.99 and each of those gets you 2 decks. With the Duel Deck Anthology box set you got 4 of these duel deck box sets (8 total decks) packed into the anthology box set, and with the product having an MSRP of $100. In this case the MSRP of the anthology box set was actually $20 more than what the MSRP of the duel decks would have been when simply added up together and having a price attached. Thusly it would make logical sense for that conversion to continue for the next anthology product in how wizards chose to price the anthology box set based upon how the products were originally packaged.
So then lets again look at the planechase box sets (And I do wish to correct one thing for the record... For the people who keep saying that planechase isn't popular, well, I hate to break it to you, but casual players tend to love the planechase planes as an addition to playing magic with, the problem for many people has often been trying to get ahold of the entire set, which this product now conveniently solves. People always seem to underestimate the demand from the casual market of players for products like planechase. If there truly was no real demand for the planechase planes, then people wouldn't be able to sell the 2012 planechase plane sets for $80 (going rate from prior to the announcement) or the older 2009 planechase plane sets with promos for a ballpark price of $120-$140 total (also the going rate prior to the announcement). The demand is there, and the price of what those sets go for and what people are willing to pay for them was reflected accordingly. The only reason I brought up the secondary market value btw, was just to explain that there is demand and popularity for the planechase planes and anyone giving them little to no value when really, they are the main value from the planechase products are in fact incorrect in their assumptions.)
Now then back to the value comparison. So, as we saw for the duel decks, they took the 4 duel deck box sets with an MSRP of $19.99 each, and put them into the product and priced that product at $100 (an effective price of $25 per duel deck box set). So, lets look at planechase then. This planechase box set, firstly comes with the complete contents of the 4 2012 planechase sealed boxes (4 decks, and 40 planechase planes/phenomenon), each of those had an MSRP of $19.99 each when released, so for the purposes of direct comparison, and with the duel decks getting raised up to $25 per box set to get to the anthology box set price of $100, you should logically do the same for the 2012 planechase box set, and thusly at $25 per box that would put you at $100 just for the planechase 2012 decks/planes/phenomenon. But, here's the kicker, you also get the other 2009 planechase planes plus the 6 promo planes including the fairly rare and popular Tazeem plane card. When looking at the relative value of the planechase planes vs the decks themselves that made up the box sets, it is logical to put the value of the planes at 50% of the value of the sealed product given that the planechase planes are the main point of the prouct in the first place. So for the 2009 planechase planes you would then take 50% of that same $25 price per deck, and put that value at $50 for those (plus you get the promos, which is a nice bonus), and getting us to our final MSRP price of ..... $150.
Anyhow, I hope running through all that helps give some insight as to why wizards likely priced these planechase anthology box sets at $150 instead of the $100 that the duel deck anthology box sets were (basically because when looking at a sealed product msrp vs sealed product msrp basis (which is exactly what wizards would look at when pricing such a product) you actually get more equivalent sealed products (or partial sealed products as with the 2009 part) with the planechase anthology box set than you do with the duel deck anthology box set.
Why should the secondary market be irrelevant? Saying that means you believe WOTC should not be allowed to make more money off their product. Cards are worth X dollars. You are saying WOTC should have to sell their own product for X - Y. How does that make sense?
Already pre-ordered mine. I'm not happy with how high the price is, but, I never got any of the Planechase decks in their original release, and getting them in the secondary market is more expensive than $150 just for the Planes, let alone the 4 decks. Do I think it's right? No. Just like I didn't like that Duel Deck Anthologies was $20 more than what 4 Duel Decks cost at MSRP, but I didn't have any of them, and i'm trying to collect all of them, so it was worth it considering secondary market prices on the older Duel Decks.
November is gonna be expensive, since I also get all the Commander Decks every year. :/
Cards like goyf allows them to set a higher MSRP in the first place. In that way, he DOES dictate the price of those packs. It's the same here. But since planechase guarantees you every single plane card in existence instead of randomizing, it is set higher. If Wizards print 2 random plane per pack the MSRP will also be a lot lower.
If you feel that the price is too high, then this product doesn't aim at you.I myself buy the planechase only for the plane. The deck itself is virtually worthless (except the 2012 one which contains new card, and they do include those here). I pay $160 for 80 plane and need to hunt down the other 6 myself, adding to the cost. $150 is a fine deal, and if I don't own planechase already I'll probably pay for it.
Except they gave us 480 cards with DD Anthology and that only cost $100 when here we are getting 326 and somehow it adds up to an extra $50. Even given the planes and their semi rarity, the format isn't all that popular so why make it more expensive when this could mean getting more people into this format and making future installments? For what we are getting there is no excuse for $150.
We are getting about 35% to 40% less than the last Anthology and yet it costs 50% more. How does that make sense? This is the same thing with MM2 compared to MM1 and how they charged more for MM2 even though it was far worse, in almost every way, than its predecessor.
The number of cards doesn't matter. Modern Master pack got same amount of cards as the normal packs but it's so much more expensive.
The comparisons to Duel Deck Anthology sort of are hard to swallow, as some of those Duel Decks had highly sought after cards. Which are of course playable in a lot of formats. The Planes and Phenomenon? Not legal in any event.
I'm sort of the target for this product, but I am not interested in it. I like non-standard 1on1 funstuff. I have been waiting for Archenemy 2. But alas, it is above what I would pay for reprints of cards I don't really want.
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Cards like goyf allows them to set a higher MSRP in the first place. In that way, he DOES dictate the price of those packs. It's the same here. But since planechase guarantees you every single plane card in existence instead of randomizing, it is set higher. If Wizards print 2 random plane per pack the MSRP will also be a lot lower.
If you feel that the price is too high, then this product doesn't aim at you.I myself buy the planechase only for the plane. The deck itself is virtually worthless (except the 2012 one which contains new card, and they do include those here). I pay $160 for 80 plane and need to hunt down the other 6 myself, adding to the cost. $150 is a fine deal, and if I don't own planechase already I'll probably pay for it.
Except they gave us 480 cards with DD Anthology and that only cost $100 when here we are getting 326 and somehow it adds up to an extra $50. Even given the planes and their semi rarity, the format isn't all that popular so why make it more expensive when this could mean getting more people into this format and making future installments? For what we are getting there is no excuse for $150.
We are getting about 35% to 40% less than the last Anthology and yet it costs 50% more. How does that make sense? This is the same thing with MM2 compared to MM1 and how they charged more for MM2 even though it was far worse, in almost every way, than its predecessor.
The number of cards doesn't matter. Modern Master pack got same amount of cards as the normal packs but it's so much more expensive.
My point of MM2 was a worse product that cost more, and we did get less cards from it in the form of boxes, so that point wasn't completely wrong. This having far less in it and costing so much more I am willing to say this is equally as bad.
The comparisons to Duel Deck Anthology sort of are hard to swallow, as some of those Duel Decks had highly sought after cards. Which are of course playable in a lot of formats. The Planes and Phenomenon? Not legal in any event.
I'm sort of the target for this product, but I am not interested in it. I like non-standard 1on1 funstuff. I have been waiting for Archenemy 2. But alas, it is above what I would pay for reprints of cards I don't really want.
PC 2012 does have sought after cards as well, mostly when it comes to the new ones, but yes the plane cards being unable to be used in many areas and this costing more because of it definitely doesn't sit right.
PC 2012 does have sought after cards as well, mostly when it comes to the new ones, but yes the plane cards being unable to be used in many areas and this costing more because of it definitely doesn't sit right.
By that logic, each individual Planechase deck was a terrible product as well, considering that had 70 cards as opposed to an individual Duel Deck's 120. The multiplier used isn't exactly wrong (basically a 25% increase per individual product), but since that logic already found the individual decks as not worth the price, then naturally a compilation would seem that much worse multiplied as well.
I'm already sort of glad they didn't include the 2009 decks (which were all reprints if I didn't remember wrongly) and have the price raised to 200 instead.
The main catch is whether you think it's worth paying the price of 6 regular cards for a single plane-sized one. If you don't, then no variation of the product will meet your expectations, because that was the basis of the original product.
hmmm...$150 for this or $200 for a box of Eternal Masters?? decisions decisions
Yes I'm aware of EM being more than $200 but its an offer I got for one for being a loyal customer to my local store, kinda a long story so I'll just leave it at that.
PC 2012 does have sought after cards as well, mostly when it comes to the new ones, but yes the plane cards being unable to be used in many areas and this costing more because of it definitely doesn't sit right.
By that logic, each individual Planechase deck was a terrible product as well, considering that had 70 cards as opposed to an individual Duel Deck's 120. The multiplier used isn't exactly wrong (basically a 25% increase per individual product), but since that logic already found the individual decks as not worth the price, then naturally a compilation would seem that much worse multiplied as well.
I'm already sort of glad they didn't include the 2009 decks (which were all reprints if I didn't remember wrongly) and have the price raised to 200 instead.
The main catch is whether you think it's worth paying the price of 6 regular cards for a single plane-sized one. If you don't, then no variation of the product will meet your expectations, because that was the basis of the original product.
It would be good if 2009 was included, first it would actually be correct based on the definition of Anthology and second then it would be worth $150. If it had 8 decks and all the planes then I wouldn't be complaining about the price, but for only 4 decks and all the planes it really should be $100. The planes are only expensive because of scarcity, not because everyone wants them, and many who like the format already have some amount of the planes, which makes a good chunk of this less useful and even less of a reason to buy this to get what they are missing. I like Planechase and the format, but why make this so expensive for those that want to try it or finally get their hands on all of it, the price only scares them away and makes this harder to sell.
The game Muchkin has the same kind of cards, but the sets they released them in doesn't cost more because of them.
It would be good if 2009 was included, first it would actually be correct based on the definition of Anthology and second then it would be worth $150. If it had 8 decks and all the planes then I wouldn't be complaining about the price, but for only 4 decks and all the planes it really should be $100. The planes are only expensive because of scarcity, not because everyone wants them, and many who like the format already have some amount of the planes, which makes a good chunk of this less useful and even less of a reason to buy this to get what they are missing. I like Planechase and the format, but why make this so expensive for those that want to try it or finally get their hands on all of it, the price only scares them away and makes this harder to sell.
You didn't read the part when I said reprinting the 2009 decks would make it necessary to raise the price to 200 because of the required profit margins of the product right? They aren't going to be giving free cards outside of the 6 planes.
Planes being considered expensive cards is ridicolous. They are valuable just because they are rare. They are no legal in tournaments and are playable only in a not very popular casual variant. That should be the definition of non-expensive cards. but wotc with artificial scarcity has convinced everyone the 86 planes have almost 100$ value. Ridicolous.
Honestly, I don't think Wizards expects to sell this fantastically well themselves, they do have the sales data of the original sets.
The original product was 20 each and had 10 planes. Since we're going to use Duel Deck comparisons, it means the deck is worth 10 (secondary market doesn't matter) and the planes another 10. As there are 10 planes, it means that planechase from the very beginning was a format where each piece of plane is a dollar. People who wanted to play the variant were already shelling out a dollar for each plane then. Throw in the 1.25 multiplier for Anthology reprints (which applied to the Duel Decks), each plane is effectively 1.25 and 80 will be 100. I did not mention it is cheap, but I'm pointing out it is consistent.
Planechase was never meant to be "cheap", it was a 1 dollar per plane variant from the very beginning. "If it was cheaper more people will play it" is simply an excuse used by people who want stuff to be cheaper, because it applies to almost every factor of MTG, especially non-rotating formats. WotC had enough data from the sales of the original planechase sets (when the planes were 1 per piece) and from the Anthology (to factor in the conversion) for them to determine it was worth catering to that small group of people who wanted to acquire an entire set of planechase and are willing to pay the conversion rates for the convenience.
Like you said, Planechase is non-tournament-legal variant. Wizards already expected it to be at best popular with the Kitchen Table crowd, not with the competitive majority that shows up for FNM and the likes. Making it cheaper isn't going to suddenly appeal to people whom are not interested in the format other than the vocal crowd of "We want everything cheaper!". The Duel Deck Anthology wasn't very available in large quantities and I'm expecting the Planechase one to be just about similar.
We can scream "Artificial Scarcity' all we want, but isn't that how the collectible aspect of the entire game has been running for profit anyway? At least they're being consistent with this one (at least with regards of history), not like Modern Masters 2, where they ran in two different wrong directions at the same time.
You didn't read the part when I said reprinting the 2009 decks would make it necessary to raise the price to 200 because of the required profit margins of the product right? They aren't going to be giving free cards outside of the 6 planes.
Who wants them to give this away for free? This is about putting a price to it that is appropriate for what we are getting. I'm sure this doesn't cost that much more to make than DD: Anthology, in fact it should cost a bit less, if not the same, seeing as the packaging should be smaller for it with less product to house, that it needs to cost $50 more for profit margins.
You didn't read the part when I said reprinting the 2009 decks would make it necessary to raise the price to 200 because of the required profit margins of the product right? They aren't going to be giving free cards outside of the 6 planes.
Who wants them to give this away for free? This is about putting a price to it that is appropriate for what we are getting. I'm sure this doesn't cost that much more to make than DD: Anthology, in fact it should cost a bit less, if not the same, seeing as the packaging should be smaller for it with less product to house, that it needs to cost $50 more for profit margins.
Like I said, the individual Planechase products were probably not appropriate for what we got, if we follow your logic - it has 70 cards for the same price as an individual duel deck, which has 120 cards. So scaling up accordingly, this product is consistent to this "inappropriate" pricing that all planechase products have been going for.
A full suite of 8 planechase decks would run 160 in total and that's before applying the 1.25 Anthology multiplier. If they sold that (all 8 decks) at 150, that's essentially giving away cards for free in comparison to the 8 planechase decks combined.
Yes, it would probably cost less to produce the Planechase Anthology than the Duel Deck Anthology, but the Plane Cards have always from the start, meant to be high-profit luxury casual cards (basically they make 3x more profits than the normal card if we consider they represent 6 cards in price but cost 2 cards in cardboard) in the first place and as such costs more. You can disagree that it shouldn't be a high-profit luxury product, but this applies since the first planechase decks were released and not solely exclusive to the Anthology, which mathematically is consistent with the Duel Deck Anthology's conversion rate.
Had this been a complete 8 deck set with an MSRP of $99.99 it would have been on my buy list. However, as it stands I'm in no rush to grab this for my collection.
Just don't make sense to me how the previous Anthology set had 8 decks and they cut this one short. As far as the cost, aftermarket value should have zero effects on a current reprints MSRP. That's like Marvel having an MSRP of $50k everytime they release a reprint of Amazing Fantasy #15.
Prob going to have some sweet @$$ D20s though... That's prob where all the cost is going
The thing people have to realize about this product, is, if you don't value the planechase planes highly enough for this to seem like a decent value for you at $150, then quite literally this product is not for you (while I am sure more people might be interested if there was all 8 decks, or if the price was lower, $150 as explained in my previous two posts, quite clearly and accurately, is in fact dead on to what this should reasonably cost) This product isn't about the decks, this product, plain and simply put, is about the planechase planes, that's the whole point of the product in the first place. The limited nature of the product and the significant number of casual players and playgroups (most of them I would wager being kitchen table casual players that people seem to most often discount in their demand pool arguments, and largely why the demand from casual players makes up over 50% of the total demand pool for magic as a whole) that enjoy the planechase planes, should cause there to be no real problem in having these be able to sell at the $150 price wizards is msrping them at.
That's the thing as well, the duel decks, you may have gotten 8 decks, but that was only 4 sealed products you got with that anthologies deck set at the equivalent cost of $25/complete duel deck. With the planechase box sets, (the 2012 ones included here) you got the deck, and the 10 planechase planes that came with the product (the planechase planes being the main point of the product and in this case equivalent to a second deck when compared to the duel decks as people keep doing.) Wizards is not going to price an anthology product below what the original individual msrps of the products that came in it were, that's just a completely unrealistic expectation when one is looking at things from wizards perspective at how they evaluate what to price their products at, both to meet but not exceed demand, while also trying to reasonably determine what enough people would be willing to pay for the product.
In this case you are effectively getting the 2012 box set of planechase with decks/planes for $100, and then you are getting the other 46 planechase planes (2009/promos) for the other $50. Once again, if your focus is on the decks and not the planechase planes, then you are completely missing the point of this product and those who's focus is on the planechase planes which is the point of this product (and the target audience/customers this is being marketed towards) will likely agree that the price is reasonable and one they will be more than willing to pay (even if they might have hoped it would be cheaper (because hey, we all would like to get more for less that's just a given)) the listed msrp price for the product. I hope people will see the logic in the arguments I have provided in how/why wizards likely came to how this product was set up as well as to the $150 msrp price and who the product is being marketed/created for in the first place. Besides, I am sure there will be plenty of the decks floating around the internet once this product comes out and people get what they want from the box set (the planechase planes set of 86), and then look to re-sell the decks to recoup as much as they can from what they spent on the product. So if you would rather just have the decks, then be patient and grab those up separately when the time comes, or, I suppose you could even buy the product at msrp, and then re-sell the planechase planes set of 86 from the other side of things.
I'm not sure casual players will be "more than willing to pay" $150 on a Planechase product. There's still Duel Decks Anthology sitting on the shelves of my LGS and that product costs less money and probably has a wider appeal than Planechase has ever had. I won't try to argue if the product is worth that price but I certainly won't bet that it will sell well. I hope I'm wrong though cause I would like to see more new stuff for that variant.
Interesting. I know at least in our area, they seemed to sell out quite quickly (for the duel deck anthologies box set), they (Duel deck anthologies) also sell for greater than msrp online too, so the store could always put them up on ebay if need be if the local demand isn't enough for them. Also the planechase box sets sold out fairly quickly at our shop as well when they were released. Guess its just a matter of those sorts of products not being as popular in your area, which would certainly explain your perspective that they wouldn't sell well. Guess we'll just have to wait and see when the product is released.
Does this mean they're officially not doing any more new Planechase sets?
That's too bad; it was a good idea, an actually unique way to play that didn't degenerate into the same deckbuilding tropes and strategy archetypes that fill up most other formats.
I mean, we can still play with the existing plane cards, but it'd be nice to see more support for something that actually was innovative enough to justify some of Rosewater's bragging.
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Planes being considered expensive cards is ridicolous. They are valuable just because they are rare. They are no legal in tournaments and are playable only in a not very popular casual variant. That should be the definition of non-expensive cards. but wotc with artificial scarcity has convinced everyone the 86 planes have almost 100$ value. Ridicolous.
It's only ridiculous if you can't accept the price for what they really are.
25*4=100
12.5*4=50 (10 per plane deck*25% like original anthology)
100+50=150. What a magic number. It happens to be equal to the MSRP of this product.
And you got 6 promo for free. Some of which are very rare and expensive.
Rarity do impacts price. 20 cent coin, many limited editions of out of print game? If you don't want rarity to impact price, collectibles market might not be for you. That is simply the nature of collectibles.
So 10 Planes are worth half deck? A plane is worth more than 1$? Who decided this? 150 is an easy result to obtain if you make up numbers.
Price should be lower if you are buying stock of items. If single planes are worth 2$ (example), a set of 80 planes shouldn't be worth 160$ because then you can just buy singles and skip the ones you don't want.
Planechase should be a casual product and the price should be low. Let wotc make planes "rare cards" and let Planechase cater to collectors. Let's see how much this will be good for the format.
Well, the topic raised was that Secondary Market prices don't matter, so the calculation was as follows:
Duel Decks and Planechase both cost 20. Since Duel Decks have 2 decks, it means the value of a supplementary deck is 10. Since Planechase only has 1 deck per product, it means the remaining value of 10 is for the 10 plane cards, which makes the card effective cost 1 each. Yes, it does mean that each plane makes 3x more profits than the regular card since it costs about only 2x a regular card but is priced at 6 cards.
This just goes to show that Planes were always meant to be "Luxury Casual" products. Do not mistake Casual for "cheap and for the masses". This has held true since the original Planechase products were released and by conversion of how the Planechase Anthology works, it only serves to reinforce that point.
Also, it's sort of pointless of talking how "high prices" are "bad for the format". Using the above point, WotC has clearly sent the message they always knew that the target of the Planechase format is just meant for the "Luxury Casual" players and is purely an ancillary product - they don't intend to have it develop into anything substantial and/or competitive.
"But if it's cheaper, it means more people will play" is something MTG players have been using for literally every product and/or format out there in existent/print. At this point of time raising that suggestion is like saying "MTG players are going to complain about the next product anyway". From the pure mathematical standpoint, Wizards did not actually jack up the prices of the product (other than the Anthology 1.25x multiplier, but that's a separate issue on it's own), it's just the product was expensive to begin with in the first place.
Also, the Anthologies were never advertised to be have the purpose of "expanding or making a format more popular", it was just advertised as an extra catch-all ancillary product for those who already know the costs of the product but don't mind the multiplier for convenience. The assumption that WotC intends for every product to explode in popularity and should therefore always lower prices is just born from the desires of some players wanting a lower entry of barrier for what they're interested in, but unwilling to spend on and there's no data to cite that this is a majority worth acting on, especially when it comes to "casual" products like this, since most of the budget-conscious players are likely to be in the "non-casual" group, as they are more invested in the game and its internal workings (Secondary Market) and so on.
$150 are you kidding me Wizards? Get bent. I'm willing to support them for their products but $150 for a reprint set is just ludicrous. Are they trying to encourage bootlegs at this point?
Was anyone seriously clamouring for the Planechase 2012 decks to be reprinted? Maelstrom Wanderer and Shardless Agent need some reprints for sure but this isn't going to help that. What a way to inflate the price tag.
12.5*4=50 (10 per plane deck*25% like original anthology)
So 10 Planes are worth half deck? A plane is worth more than 1$? Who decided this? 150 is an easy result to obtain if you make up numbers.
Price should be lower if you are buying stock of items. If single planes are worth 2$ (example), a set of 80 planes shouldn't be worth 160$ because then you can just buy singles and skip the ones you don't want.
Planechase should be a casual product and the price should be low. Let wotc make planes "rare cards" and let Planechase cater to collectors. Let's see how much this will be good for the format.
So who says it doesn't? You mean people are complaining about this product price?
The market price of the planechase suggests that it is even HIGHER. But of course, other people are saying in this very thread that the market price shouldn't affect MSRP. So let's be clear. Market price shouldn't affect MSRP. "Who decide" half deck isn't worth 10 plane. I can actually tell you who decide that, it's WOTC.
And you say the price should be lower but obviously I can cite Wizards and market and they both agree that it shouldn't be priced lower. Now I cite the market represent by the players and the maker of this very game. Can I get some citation on your side, make it as reputatble if possible? If it's too high for some casual group, this isn't a product for those casual group. I wish Vintage Master got $4 a pack but it's not really a product for me.
I loved the idea of building a deck around the Plane cards you used. Some interesting decks arose in my area. Alas, it won't ever be a sanctioned format, so I'll I'm still torn if I want to get this.
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12.5*4=50 (10 per plane deck*25% like original anthology)
So 10 Planes are worth half deck? A plane is worth more than 1$? Who decided this? 150 is an easy result to obtain if you make up numbers.
Price should be lower if you are buying stock of items. If single planes are worth 2$ (example), a set of 80 planes shouldn't be worth 160$ because then you can just buy singles and skip the ones you don't want.
Planechase should be a casual product and the price should be low. Let wotc make planes "rare cards" and let Planechase cater to collectors. Let's see how much this will be good for the format.
Planes are above $1 because players will pay that for them. Before this product, the few who wanted a full set of planes had to shell out quite a bit. I paid $35 for my Tazeem... not because it's good, but because I wanted the full planar set for shared deck casual/cube/EDH/whatever. I've never actually seen the "build your planar deck" variant kick off anywhere; its lack of support on MTGO is probably why Planechase as a format never became popular on there & is most likely why the only reason to buy Planechase decks was Shardless Agent. Prior to the Anthology reprint announcement, a full set of planes wasn't $160... it was closer to $300. People were paying this not because it was "good for the format," but because they genuinely enjoy Planechase games.
The point that I think has been missed is that this isn't $150 because WotC thinks that's what a full set of planes should cost. It's $150 for three reasons: the LGSes got $150 out of Duel Deck Anthology, they've proven they're willing to increase MSRP to match previous releases' secondary market prices ($7 MSRP for Modern Masters, $10 for Modern Masters 2,) and they critically failed to realize that this product shouldn't be targeted for & won't sell to the same market that bought Duel Deck Anthology. The four decks in the anthology contain the sum total of three cards that anyone cares about (Maelstrom Wanderer, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix) & one of those three has been reprinted to death via Commaander and Eternal Masters. The collectors don't give a damn about this product necause it's all reprints & they have the originals, the competitive players don't give a damn about this product except for its potential to drive Shardless Agent down to single-digit prices, the core casual players don't give a damn about this product because it's been priced well out of the "hey, let's pick this up and change up the game for a night" range, and the "luxury casual" players who'd have the budget to buy this don't give a damn because they already have everything that's being reprinted in it, including the planar full set. Who does that leave to buy this product?
Between the almost total lack of reason for any segment of the market to buy this product and the needlessly large packaging that'll take up metric craptons of space on LGS shelves, we've got every needed element in the classic "mark it down & shovel it out" product failure recipe. I look forward to seeing LGS owners discount the hell out of this to get rid of it & have space for a product that'll actually sell at something faster than glacial speeds.
Congratulations, WotC, this one's not even on the shelves yet & it's already an obvious mistake. Only time will tell if you actually learn something from it.
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If a product fails because nobody is buying it, WOTC always thinks the MSRP being set too high is surely never the cause of a product's failure.
Do you know why nobody is buying some of your products WOTC? Because they have to pay an arm and a leg, pay through their nose, and put their money where their mouth is. That's why.
Ok, the second and third one didn't make any sense, but the first one sure did.
I'm not sure casual players will be "more than willing to pay" $150 on a Planechase product. There's still Duel Decks Anthology sitting on the shelves of my LGS and that product costs less money and probably has a wider appeal than Planechase has ever had. I won't try to argue if the product is worth that price but I certainly won't bet that it will sell well. I hope I'm wrong though cause I would like to see more new stuff for that variant.
Interesting. I know at least in our area, they seemed to sell out quite quickly (for the duel deck anthologies box set), they (Duel deck anthologies) also sell for greater than msrp online too, so the store could always put them up on ebay if need be if the local demand isn't enough for them. Also the planechase box sets sold out fairly quickly at our shop as well when they were released. Guess its just a matter of those sorts of products not being as popular in your area, which would certainly explain your perspective that they wouldn't sell well. Guess we'll just have to wait and see when the product is released.
I know they sold out quickly around here as well. I believe FTV Annihilation was stuck around for a while
Does this mean they're officially not doing any more new Planechase sets?
That's too bad; it was a good idea, an actually unique way to play that didn't degenerate into the same deckbuilding tropes and strategy archetypes that fill up most other formats.
I mean, we can still play with the existing plane cards, but it'd be nice to see more support for something that actually was innovative enough to justify some of Rosewater's bragging.
I enjoyed playing but I can't say much on the popularity of the format so maybe it just wasn't popular?
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The secondary market value of the plane cards should be irrelevant for the price of this. I understand this isn't for everyone, but that isn't the discussion. The discussion is that the price is too high for what you are getting, even if this is for any one person and even if they can easily afford it. Just because it is for you doesn't mean you should pay more than you should be.
So, lets break it down again (I already broke down why $150 makes perfectly logical sense from an MSRP perspective on the last page of this thread based on the comparative MSRP of such products and basically combining them together to get to the $150 price).
The duel decks tend to have an MSRP of $19.99 and each of those gets you 2 decks. With the Duel Deck Anthology box set you got 4 of these duel deck box sets (8 total decks) packed into the anthology box set, and with the product having an MSRP of $100. In this case the MSRP of the anthology box set was actually $20 more than what the MSRP of the duel decks would have been when simply added up together and having a price attached. Thusly it would make logical sense for that conversion to continue for the next anthology product in how wizards chose to price the anthology box set based upon how the products were originally packaged.
So then lets again look at the planechase box sets (And I do wish to correct one thing for the record... For the people who keep saying that planechase isn't popular, well, I hate to break it to you, but casual players tend to love the planechase planes as an addition to playing magic with, the problem for many people has often been trying to get ahold of the entire set, which this product now conveniently solves. People always seem to underestimate the demand from the casual market of players for products like planechase. If there truly was no real demand for the planechase planes, then people wouldn't be able to sell the 2012 planechase plane sets for $80 (going rate from prior to the announcement) or the older 2009 planechase plane sets with promos for a ballpark price of $120-$140 total (also the going rate prior to the announcement). The demand is there, and the price of what those sets go for and what people are willing to pay for them was reflected accordingly. The only reason I brought up the secondary market value btw, was just to explain that there is demand and popularity for the planechase planes and anyone giving them little to no value when really, they are the main value from the planechase products are in fact incorrect in their assumptions.)
Now then back to the value comparison. So, as we saw for the duel decks, they took the 4 duel deck box sets with an MSRP of $19.99 each, and put them into the product and priced that product at $100 (an effective price of $25 per duel deck box set). So, lets look at planechase then. This planechase box set, firstly comes with the complete contents of the 4 2012 planechase sealed boxes (4 decks, and 40 planechase planes/phenomenon), each of those had an MSRP of $19.99 each when released, so for the purposes of direct comparison, and with the duel decks getting raised up to $25 per box set to get to the anthology box set price of $100, you should logically do the same for the 2012 planechase box set, and thusly at $25 per box that would put you at $100 just for the planechase 2012 decks/planes/phenomenon. But, here's the kicker, you also get the other 2009 planechase planes plus the 6 promo planes including the fairly rare and popular Tazeem plane card. When looking at the relative value of the planechase planes vs the decks themselves that made up the box sets, it is logical to put the value of the planes at 50% of the value of the sealed product given that the planechase planes are the main point of the prouct in the first place. So for the 2009 planechase planes you would then take 50% of that same $25 price per deck, and put that value at $50 for those (plus you get the promos, which is a nice bonus), and getting us to our final MSRP price of ..... $150.
Anyhow, I hope running through all that helps give some insight as to why wizards likely priced these planechase anthology box sets at $150 instead of the $100 that the duel deck anthology box sets were (basically because when looking at a sealed product msrp vs sealed product msrp basis (which is exactly what wizards would look at when pricing such a product) you actually get more equivalent sealed products (or partial sealed products as with the 2009 part) with the planechase anthology box set than you do with the duel deck anthology box set.
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Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
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The number of cards doesn't matter. Modern Master pack got same amount of cards as the normal packs but it's so much more expensive.
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I'm sort of the target for this product, but I am not interested in it. I like non-standard 1on1 funstuff. I have been waiting for Archenemy 2. But alas, it is above what I would pay for reprints of cards I don't really want.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
My point of MM2 was a worse product that cost more, and we did get less cards from it in the form of boxes, so that point wasn't completely wrong. This having far less in it and costing so much more I am willing to say this is equally as bad.
PC 2012 does have sought after cards as well, mostly when it comes to the new ones, but yes the plane cards being unable to be used in many areas and this costing more because of it definitely doesn't sit right.
By that logic, each individual Planechase deck was a terrible product as well, considering that had 70 cards as opposed to an individual Duel Deck's 120. The multiplier used isn't exactly wrong (basically a 25% increase per individual product), but since that logic already found the individual decks as not worth the price, then naturally a compilation would seem that much worse multiplied as well.
I'm already sort of glad they didn't include the 2009 decks (which were all reprints if I didn't remember wrongly) and have the price raised to 200 instead.
The main catch is whether you think it's worth paying the price of 6 regular cards for a single plane-sized one. If you don't, then no variation of the product will meet your expectations, because that was the basis of the original product.
Yes I'm aware of EM being more than $200 but its an offer I got for one for being a loyal customer to my local store, kinda a long story so I'll just leave it at that.
It would be good if 2009 was included, first it would actually be correct based on the definition of Anthology and second then it would be worth $150. If it had 8 decks and all the planes then I wouldn't be complaining about the price, but for only 4 decks and all the planes it really should be $100. The planes are only expensive because of scarcity, not because everyone wants them, and many who like the format already have some amount of the planes, which makes a good chunk of this less useful and even less of a reason to buy this to get what they are missing. I like Planechase and the format, but why make this so expensive for those that want to try it or finally get their hands on all of it, the price only scares them away and makes this harder to sell.
The game Muchkin has the same kind of cards, but the sets they released them in doesn't cost more because of them.
You didn't read the part when I said reprinting the 2009 decks would make it necessary to raise the price to 200 because of the required profit margins of the product right? They aren't going to be giving free cards outside of the 6 planes.
Honestly, I don't think Wizards expects to sell this fantastically well themselves, they do have the sales data of the original sets.
The original product was 20 each and had 10 planes. Since we're going to use Duel Deck comparisons, it means the deck is worth 10 (secondary market doesn't matter) and the planes another 10. As there are 10 planes, it means that planechase from the very beginning was a format where each piece of plane is a dollar. People who wanted to play the variant were already shelling out a dollar for each plane then. Throw in the 1.25 multiplier for Anthology reprints (which applied to the Duel Decks), each plane is effectively 1.25 and 80 will be 100. I did not mention it is cheap, but I'm pointing out it is consistent.
Planechase was never meant to be "cheap", it was a 1 dollar per plane variant from the very beginning. "If it was cheaper more people will play it" is simply an excuse used by people who want stuff to be cheaper, because it applies to almost every factor of MTG, especially non-rotating formats. WotC had enough data from the sales of the original planechase sets (when the planes were 1 per piece) and from the Anthology (to factor in the conversion) for them to determine it was worth catering to that small group of people who wanted to acquire an entire set of planechase and are willing to pay the conversion rates for the convenience.
Like you said, Planechase is non-tournament-legal variant. Wizards already expected it to be at best popular with the Kitchen Table crowd, not with the competitive majority that shows up for FNM and the likes. Making it cheaper isn't going to suddenly appeal to people whom are not interested in the format other than the vocal crowd of "We want everything cheaper!". The Duel Deck Anthology wasn't very available in large quantities and I'm expecting the Planechase one to be just about similar.
We can scream "Artificial Scarcity' all we want, but isn't that how the collectible aspect of the entire game has been running for profit anyway? At least they're being consistent with this one (at least with regards of history), not like Modern Masters 2, where they ran in two different wrong directions at the same time.
Who wants them to give this away for free? This is about putting a price to it that is appropriate for what we are getting. I'm sure this doesn't cost that much more to make than DD: Anthology, in fact it should cost a bit less, if not the same, seeing as the packaging should be smaller for it with less product to house, that it needs to cost $50 more for profit margins.
Like I said, the individual Planechase products were probably not appropriate for what we got, if we follow your logic - it has 70 cards for the same price as an individual duel deck, which has 120 cards. So scaling up accordingly, this product is consistent to this "inappropriate" pricing that all planechase products have been going for.
A full suite of 8 planechase decks would run 160 in total and that's before applying the 1.25 Anthology multiplier. If they sold that (all 8 decks) at 150, that's essentially giving away cards for free in comparison to the 8 planechase decks combined.
Yes, it would probably cost less to produce the Planechase Anthology than the Duel Deck Anthology, but the Plane Cards have always from the start, meant to be high-profit luxury casual cards (basically they make 3x more profits than the normal card if we consider they represent 6 cards in price but cost 2 cards in cardboard) in the first place and as such costs more. You can disagree that it shouldn't be a high-profit luxury product, but this applies since the first planechase decks were released and not solely exclusive to the Anthology, which mathematically is consistent with the Duel Deck Anthology's conversion rate.
Just don't make sense to me how the previous Anthology set had 8 decks and they cut this one short. As far as the cost, aftermarket value should have zero effects on a current reprints MSRP. That's like Marvel having an MSRP of $50k everytime they release a reprint of Amazing Fantasy #15.
Prob going to have some sweet @$$ D20s though... That's prob where all the cost is going
That's the thing as well, the duel decks, you may have gotten 8 decks, but that was only 4 sealed products you got with that anthologies deck set at the equivalent cost of $25/complete duel deck. With the planechase box sets, (the 2012 ones included here) you got the deck, and the 10 planechase planes that came with the product (the planechase planes being the main point of the product and in this case equivalent to a second deck when compared to the duel decks as people keep doing.) Wizards is not going to price an anthology product below what the original individual msrps of the products that came in it were, that's just a completely unrealistic expectation when one is looking at things from wizards perspective at how they evaluate what to price their products at, both to meet but not exceed demand, while also trying to reasonably determine what enough people would be willing to pay for the product.
In this case you are effectively getting the 2012 box set of planechase with decks/planes for $100, and then you are getting the other 46 planechase planes (2009/promos) for the other $50. Once again, if your focus is on the decks and not the planechase planes, then you are completely missing the point of this product and those who's focus is on the planechase planes which is the point of this product (and the target audience/customers this is being marketed towards) will likely agree that the price is reasonable and one they will be more than willing to pay (even if they might have hoped it would be cheaper (because hey, we all would like to get more for less that's just a given)) the listed msrp price for the product. I hope people will see the logic in the arguments I have provided in how/why wizards likely came to how this product was set up as well as to the $150 msrp price and who the product is being marketed/created for in the first place. Besides, I am sure there will be plenty of the decks floating around the internet once this product comes out and people get what they want from the box set (the planechase planes set of 86), and then look to re-sell the decks to recoup as much as they can from what they spent on the product. So if you would rather just have the decks, then be patient and grab those up separately when the time comes, or, I suppose you could even buy the product at msrp, and then re-sell the planechase planes set of 86 from the other side of things.
Anyhow, just some more things to keep in mind.
Interesting. I know at least in our area, they seemed to sell out quite quickly (for the duel deck anthologies box set), they (Duel deck anthologies) also sell for greater than msrp online too, so the store could always put them up on ebay if need be if the local demand isn't enough for them. Also the planechase box sets sold out fairly quickly at our shop as well when they were released. Guess its just a matter of those sorts of products not being as popular in your area, which would certainly explain your perspective that they wouldn't sell well. Guess we'll just have to wait and see when the product is released.
That's too bad; it was a good idea, an actually unique way to play that didn't degenerate into the same deckbuilding tropes and strategy archetypes that fill up most other formats.
I mean, we can still play with the existing plane cards, but it'd be nice to see more support for something that actually was innovative enough to justify some of Rosewater's bragging.
It's only ridiculous if you can't accept the price for what they really are.
25*4=100
12.5*4=50 (10 per plane deck*25% like original anthology)
100+50=150. What a magic number. It happens to be equal to the MSRP of this product.
And you got 6 promo for free. Some of which are very rare and expensive.
Rarity do impacts price. 20 cent coin, many limited editions of out of print game? If you don't want rarity to impact price, collectibles market might not be for you. That is simply the nature of collectibles.
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Well, the topic raised was that Secondary Market prices don't matter, so the calculation was as follows:
Duel Decks and Planechase both cost 20. Since Duel Decks have 2 decks, it means the value of a supplementary deck is 10. Since Planechase only has 1 deck per product, it means the remaining value of 10 is for the 10 plane cards, which makes the card effective cost 1 each. Yes, it does mean that each plane makes 3x more profits than the regular card since it costs about only 2x a regular card but is priced at 6 cards.
This just goes to show that Planes were always meant to be "Luxury Casual" products. Do not mistake Casual for "cheap and for the masses". This has held true since the original Planechase products were released and by conversion of how the Planechase Anthology works, it only serves to reinforce that point.
Also, it's sort of pointless of talking how "high prices" are "bad for the format". Using the above point, WotC has clearly sent the message they always knew that the target of the Planechase format is just meant for the "Luxury Casual" players and is purely an ancillary product - they don't intend to have it develop into anything substantial and/or competitive.
"But if it's cheaper, it means more people will play" is something MTG players have been using for literally every product and/or format out there in existent/print. At this point of time raising that suggestion is like saying "MTG players are going to complain about the next product anyway". From the pure mathematical standpoint, Wizards did not actually jack up the prices of the product (other than the Anthology 1.25x multiplier, but that's a separate issue on it's own), it's just the product was expensive to begin with in the first place.
Also, the Anthologies were never advertised to be have the purpose of "expanding or making a format more popular", it was just advertised as an extra catch-all ancillary product for those who already know the costs of the product but don't mind the multiplier for convenience. The assumption that WotC intends for every product to explode in popularity and should therefore always lower prices is just born from the desires of some players wanting a lower entry of barrier for what they're interested in, but unwilling to spend on and there's no data to cite that this is a majority worth acting on, especially when it comes to "casual" products like this, since most of the budget-conscious players are likely to be in the "non-casual" group, as they are more invested in the game and its internal workings (Secondary Market) and so on.
Was anyone seriously clamouring for the Planechase 2012 decks to be reprinted? Maelstrom Wanderer and Shardless Agent need some reprints for sure but this isn't going to help that. What a way to inflate the price tag.
So who says it doesn't? You mean people are complaining about this product price?
The market price of the planechase suggests that it is even HIGHER. But of course, other people are saying in this very thread that the market price shouldn't affect MSRP. So let's be clear. Market price shouldn't affect MSRP. "Who decide" half deck isn't worth 10 plane. I can actually tell you who decide that, it's WOTC.
And you say the price should be lower but obviously I can cite Wizards and market and they both agree that it shouldn't be priced lower. Now I cite the market represent by the players and the maker of this very game. Can I get some citation on your side, make it as reputatble if possible? If it's too high for some casual group, this isn't a product for those casual group. I wish Vintage Master got $4 a pack but it's not really a product for me.
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Planes are above $1 because players will pay that for them. Before this product, the few who wanted a full set of planes had to shell out quite a bit. I paid $35 for my Tazeem... not because it's good, but because I wanted the full planar set for shared deck casual/cube/EDH/whatever. I've never actually seen the "build your planar deck" variant kick off anywhere; its lack of support on MTGO is probably why Planechase as a format never became popular on there & is most likely why the only reason to buy Planechase decks was Shardless Agent. Prior to the Anthology reprint announcement, a full set of planes wasn't $160... it was closer to $300. People were paying this not because it was "good for the format," but because they genuinely enjoy Planechase games.
The point that I think has been missed is that this isn't $150 because WotC thinks that's what a full set of planes should cost. It's $150 for three reasons: the LGSes got $150 out of Duel Deck Anthology, they've proven they're willing to increase MSRP to match previous releases' secondary market prices ($7 MSRP for Modern Masters, $10 for Modern Masters 2,) and they critically failed to realize that this product shouldn't be targeted for & won't sell to the same market that bought Duel Deck Anthology. The four decks in the anthology contain the sum total of three cards that anyone cares about (Maelstrom Wanderer, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix) & one of those three has been reprinted to death via Commaander and Eternal Masters. The collectors don't give a damn about this product necause it's all reprints & they have the originals, the competitive players don't give a damn about this product except for its potential to drive Shardless Agent down to single-digit prices, the core casual players don't give a damn about this product because it's been priced well out of the "hey, let's pick this up and change up the game for a night" range, and the "luxury casual" players who'd have the budget to buy this don't give a damn because they already have everything that's being reprinted in it, including the planar full set. Who does that leave to buy this product?
Between the almost total lack of reason for any segment of the market to buy this product and the needlessly large packaging that'll take up metric craptons of space on LGS shelves, we've got every needed element in the classic "mark it down & shovel it out" product failure recipe. I look forward to seeing LGS owners discount the hell out of this to get rid of it & have space for a product that'll actually sell at something faster than glacial speeds.
Congratulations, WotC, this one's not even on the shelves yet & it's already an obvious mistake. Only time will tell if you actually learn something from it.
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Do you know why nobody is buying some of your products WOTC? Because they have to pay an arm and a leg, pay through their nose, and put their money where their mouth is. That's why.
Ok, the second and third one didn't make any sense, but the first one sure did.
I know they sold out quickly around here as well. I believe FTV Annihilation was stuck around for a while
I enjoyed playing but I can't say much on the popularity of the format so maybe it just wasn't popular?