I imagine they'll reprint the five ally colored signets as well, and include them in the decks. manalith is another rock they could easily include; or Darksteel Ingot.
It would be easy to fill the decks up with two-color mana sources; six Signets, two Obelisks, and two Banners to each deck as a start. Then you add in various fixers like Burnished Hart, Chromatic Lantern, Fellwar Stone, Gem of Becoming... Problem is, if you're not careful the decks could easily wind up being 50% mana sources. That's why the decks should use as few two color sources as possible and include as many three plus color sources as possible.
Darksteel Ingot is definitely a good choice, and should be printed in all five.
That's the way precon rarity works. Commons appear in every deck rares and mythics in only one deck each. They won't be reprinting an individual rare that appears in each deck. They could reprint reflecting pool but it won't show up in each deck. These precons will have inefficient cheap mana bases balanced to play against each other, nothing more.
That ONLY applies to new cards. Steel Hellkite was in two decks the same year and remained rare, Sol Ring has been in all decks, and remained Uncommon, likewise Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots have each had a showing in all five decks, and remained uncommon.
I think that this is a prime opportunity to expand Krosan Verge into a cycle. Each could appear in three decks, and it would be inappropriate to make such a cycle in a standard set due to the color bending for the nongreen portions.
Steel Hellkite is one of the few exceptions, and my guess is was probably planned just for the red deck originally.
Krosan Verge in nongreen pairs isn't a color pie bend because the ramp is effectively and technically colorless. It is really good ramp, though. I'd match it against Gem of Becoming, as they won't be printed in the same deck. Verge could appear in up to three decks, Gem in two.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
The thing I find interesting is that this is the the first commander set without a reprint commander. To me this means one thing above all else, in some way shape and form the Nephilim will become viable commanders. Whether that means a functional reprint with an added legendary supertype, the effect "this can be you commander" printed (would this be considered a functional errata?)or a new EDH ruling allowing them as commanders.
The thing I find interesting is that this is the the first commander set without a reprint commander. To me this means one thing above all else, in some way shape and form the Nephilim will become viable commanders. Whether that means a functional reprint with an added legendary supertype, the effect "this can be you commander" printed (would this be considered a functional errata?)or a new EDH ruling allowing them as commanders.
I'm sure we will be getting a reprint of the nephilim, as they are the only 4 color cards, even if some are durdly as hell. I'm sure instead of giving them an errata we'll be seeing another nephilim cycle that is legendary, and far less durdly, with WXYZ type costing as before. Giving an errata to the current nephilim would be a little odd.
I'm sure we will be getting a reprint of the nephilim, as they are the only 4 color cards, even if some are durdly as hell. I'm sure instead of giving them an errata we'll be seeing another nephilim cycle that is legendary, and far less durdly, with WXYZ type costing as before. Giving an errata to the current nephilim would be a little odd.
My point is every single commander product, outside of Commander's Arsenal, has included 3 commanders per precon, the face commander (new), secondary commander (new) and a reprint commander. This is the first time where they don't have a currently legal card for the reprint commander slot, and the only way they can continue that trend is by making the Nephilim legal somehow. Honestly I think the most likely thing is that they'll just be officially legal as of C16.
The easiest way to errata the Nephilim is simply give the creature type "Nephilim" some extra rules baggage and change the rules in commander to say creatures that are legendary or have the "Nephilim" creature type may be used as a commander. WOTC have not used that creature type at all since the cycle was printed, so it would only apply to those five cards and may open up some interesting design space in the future for commanders that can do things legendary creatures cannot (like make copies of themselves).
If you want to use the Nephilim as a commander, just ask your play group. There will be no errata or rules changes for the nephilim.
I would be surprised if they didn't put the nephilim in the decks, but the reprinted legends would probably be a clan and/or shard card. Just like how the original Commander release had enemy pair legends in the wedge decks.
Making the Nephilim legendary or adding rules text to allow them to be commanders is a far more drastic errata than Wizards has ever done in the past. The only thing that even comes close are the creature type updates and those are largely inconsequential and done to make old cards consistent with new cards. I can't imagine them doing something so confusing and unnecessary in order to stay consistent with a trend that is unofficial and meaningless.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Sorry, it's not totally clear what you mean- what was changed on these two cards?
They currently both work as they originally did.
However, for quite a while, Time Vault had been errata'd to require "Time Counters,"
which prevented it from being abused.
A long time ago they reverted the card to its original functionality,
and its value skyrocketed as a result.
They did almost exactly the same thing with Winter Orb-
it originally only worked when untapped (as was the case with all "Continuous Artifacts" like Howling Mine),
but they changed it so it was always on.
They changed it back *very* recently.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
If you want to use the Nephilim as a commander, just ask your play group. There will be no errata or rules changes for the nephilim.
I would be surprised if they didn't put the nephilim in the decks, but the reprinted legends would probably be a clan and/or shard card. Just like how the original Commander release had enemy pair legends in the wedge decks.
Your biggest assumption here is that I have a playgroup. When it comes to playing MTG my only option is to go to one of several local game stores which tend to stick to the letter of WOTC rules. LGS in general shy away from having "house" rules because their proprietors don't want to lose their WPN sanctioning.
I'm really surprised to see people who really think that they're going to errata 5 cards that haven't had any major impact on the game to fix them for a casual format. I think that just not including a reprint commander is a million times more likely than changing the rules to make sure they can.
Sorry, it's not totally clear what you mean- what was changed on these two cards?
They currently both work as they originally did.
However, for quite a while, Time Vault had been errata'd to require "Time Counters,"
which prevented it from being abused.
A long time ago they reverted the card to its original functionality,
and its value skyrocketed as a result.
They did almost exactly the same thing with Winter Orb-
it originally only worked when untapped (as was the case with all "Continuous Artifacts" like Howling Mine),
but they changed it so it was always on.
They changed it back *very* recently.
I'll give you Time Vault, but the relevant change (adding time counters) was almost 20 years ago and things are done very differently now. Winter Orb was not changed, just reverted to its original functionality. It was a mistake to leave that line off in the first place. Neither of these compares to adding the Legendary supertype just so they can continue to have a reprint commander in each precon deck. There is absolutely no precedent for this and it's frankly kind of ridiculous that we are even discussing it seriously.
They definitely won't change the rules of commander to allow nephilim to be legal specifically by creature type. Creature type hasn't had any baggage since they got rid of legend and added defender to walls back in the day.
There's a chance they'll errata the Nephilim to be legends (here's hoping!) but I wouldn't count on it.
There won't be any baggage attached to Nephilim or to any creature type ever thanks to the existence of Changeling. Any special rules tagged to a creature type automatically rewrites all the Changelings to it as well. Mistform Ultimus was made when Legend and Wall still had rules, and they had to give it abilities to correct its functionality. The only card subtypes that will ever carry special rules ever again are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest.
Slapping legendary onto the Nephilim is a radical shift in function, moreso than the continuous artifact tweaks, or the creature type shuffling that Phage went through. It would also set a precedent that any nonlegend could be made a legend just so it could be used as a commander. Arabian Nights was full of creatures that should have been legendary, but weren't.
It i by far more likely that they will simply make three new legends for each deck, and even more likely that there will only be two.
The Nephilim are garbage bulk rares anyway and I hope we don't have any rare slots wasted on them in C16. As someone who actually opened Guildpact, cracking a Nephilim was like finding a picture of Mark Rosewater's ass in your rare slot. I'm hoping for some good new 4c commanders that use hybrid and have Tasigur-style activated abilities that give them other color identities.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Each deck could be focused on the enemies of the missing color (for example, GW in the RGWU deck) and the commanders could have an ability that indirectly hates on the missing color while still being useful unrelated to specific situations against that color (i.e. "All permanents and players have hexproof" in RGWU). Just a thought.
The Nephilim are garbage bulk rares anyway and I hope we don't have any rare slots wasted on them in C16. As someone who actually opened Guildpact, cracking a Nephilim was like finding a picture of Mark Rosewater's ass in your rare slot. I'm hoping for some good new 4c commanders that use hybrid and have Tasigur-style activated abilities that give them other color identities.
If you don't think Ink-Treader Nephilim could be a bonkers as hell commander, you have no imagination. That card is absolute dynamite as a commander.
The rest are all OK but not insane or anything.
Anyway of course they weren't good in standard, they're 4 colors and have hard-to-use abilities that you can't realistically synergize a deck around. But play it in a format where you always have access to the card, and you have duals/fetches/shocks/filters/etc...
There won't be any baggage attached to Nephilim or to any creature type ever thanks to the existence of Changeling...
Thanks for pointing this out, I keep forgetting that changeling/mistform creatures were part of the reason why they decided to keep specific creature types from having any rules baggage.
I also agree with the consensus that some of the Nephilim would be extremely underpowered as commanders when compaired to the others. However since the Nephilim remain the only four color creatures ever printed I feel that WOTC may be compelled to print new legendary ones that perhaps have abilities similar to the original Nephilim.
I also agree with the consensus that some of the Nephilim would be extremely underpowered as commanders when compaired to the others. However since the Nephilim remain the only four color creatures ever printed I feel that WOTC may be compelled to print new legendary ones that perhaps have abilities similar to the original Nephilim.
Now there's a thought. They could just reprint the Nephilim straight up, but with new names. It would plug that hole without altering the originals and smooth over having to house rule the Nephilim for commanders. I'd be on board for that, and they're so unplayed that having 8-of for legacy and vintage wouldn't even make a ripple.
I also agree with the consensus that some of the Nephilim would be extremely underpowered as commanders when compaired to the others. However since the Nephilim remain the only four color creatures ever printed I feel that WOTC may be compelled to print new legendary ones that perhaps have abilities similar to the original Nephilim.
Now there's a thought. They could just reprint the Nephilim straight up, but with new names. It would plug that hole without altering the originals and smooth over having to house rule the Nephilim for commanders. I'd be on board for that, and they're so unplayed that having 8-of for legacy and vintage wouldn't even make a ripple.
Weirdly enough, someone asked about that earlier this week on Blogatog.
Your biggest assumption here is that I have a playgroup. When it comes to playing MTG my only option is to go to one of several local game stores which tend to stick to the letter of WOTC rules. LGS in general shy away from having "house" rules because their proprietors don't want to lose their WPN sanctioning.
I don't have a playgroup either, I'm lucky if I get a game at a prerelease, but the point remains that you can ask the other players if they minded you playing an illegal commander. Unless your LGS has some sort of league or tracking/points, I don't see why the store would care what the group decides. The rules of Commander are not WotC's rules. Stores around me have a night for commander, but it's just a time and place for people to meet up and play. If someone asked to play a nephilim or Arlinn as their commander, I'd be fine with it. I'm not sure how that could affect WPN. Sorry if the players in your area are sticklers for the consensus rules or the stores somehow would ban it.
At least with getting 4 color legendaries you can keep a nephilim as a back up general (or visa versa) for the right group.
If you don't think Ink-Treader Nephilim could be a bonkers as hell commander, you have no imagination. That card is absolute dynamite as a commander.
The rest are all OK but not insane or anything.
Witch-maw and Glint-eye are absolutely boring and terrible
Kinda boring, not incredibly powerful, maybe...but most legendaries are pretty boring/weak as commanders, even when they're pushed for standard (i.e. avacyn).
Considering we're looking at 5 legends, for 1 to be incredible, 2 to be pretty cool, and 2 to be mediocre...that's a lot better than the total pool of legendaries, on average, I'll tell you that.
It would be easy to fill the decks up with two-color mana sources; six Signets, two Obelisks, and two Banners to each deck as a start. Then you add in various fixers like Burnished Hart, Chromatic Lantern, Fellwar Stone, Gem of Becoming... Problem is, if you're not careful the decks could easily wind up being 50% mana sources. That's why the decks should use as few two color sources as possible and include as many three plus color sources as possible.
Darksteel Ingot is definitely a good choice, and should be printed in all five.
Steel Hellkite is one of the few exceptions, and my guess is was probably planned just for the red deck originally.
Krosan Verge in nongreen pairs isn't a color pie bend because the ramp is effectively and technically colorless. It is really good ramp, though. I'd match it against Gem of Becoming, as they won't be printed in the same deck. Verge could appear in up to three decks, Gem in two.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Instead of City of Brass I'd like to see Grand Coliseum, only because we haven't seen it since Onslaught.
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
I'm sure we will be getting a reprint of the nephilim, as they are the only 4 color cards, even if some are durdly as hell. I'm sure instead of giving them an errata we'll be seeing another nephilim cycle that is legendary, and far less durdly, with WXYZ type costing as before. Giving an errata to the current nephilim would be a little odd.
My point is every single commander product, outside of Commander's Arsenal, has included 3 commanders per precon, the face commander (new), secondary commander (new) and a reprint commander. This is the first time where they don't have a currently legal card for the reprint commander slot, and the only way they can continue that trend is by making the Nephilim legal somehow. Honestly I think the most likely thing is that they'll just be officially legal as of C16.
I would be surprised if they didn't put the nephilim in the decks, but the reprinted legends would probably be a clan and/or shard card. Just like how the original Commander release had enemy pair legends in the wedge decks.
Meet Time Vault
(and much, much more recently, Winter Orb).
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
They currently both work as they originally did.
However, for quite a while, Time Vault had been errata'd to require "Time Counters,"
which prevented it from being abused.
A long time ago they reverted the card to its original functionality,
and its value skyrocketed as a result.
They did almost exactly the same thing with Winter Orb-
it originally only worked when untapped (as was the case with all "Continuous Artifacts" like Howling Mine),
but they changed it so it was always on.
They changed it back *very* recently.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Your biggest assumption here is that I have a playgroup. When it comes to playing MTG my only option is to go to one of several local game stores which tend to stick to the letter of WOTC rules. LGS in general shy away from having "house" rules because their proprietors don't want to lose their WPN sanctioning.
I'll give you Time Vault, but the relevant change (adding time counters) was almost 20 years ago and things are done very differently now. Winter Orb was not changed, just reverted to its original functionality. It was a mistake to leave that line off in the first place. Neither of these compares to adding the Legendary supertype just so they can continue to have a reprint commander in each precon deck. There is absolutely no precedent for this and it's frankly kind of ridiculous that we are even discussing it seriously.
There's a chance they'll errata the Nephilim to be legends (here's hoping!) but I wouldn't count on it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Slapping legendary onto the Nephilim is a radical shift in function, moreso than the continuous artifact tweaks, or the creature type shuffling that Phage went through. It would also set a precedent that any nonlegend could be made a legend just so it could be used as a commander. Arabian Nights was full of creatures that should have been legendary, but weren't.
It i by far more likely that they will simply make three new legends for each deck, and even more likely that there will only be two.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
The rest are all OK but not insane or anything.
Anyway of course they weren't good in standard, they're 4 colors and have hard-to-use abilities that you can't realistically synergize a deck around. But play it in a format where you always have access to the card, and you have duals/fetches/shocks/filters/etc...
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Thanks for pointing this out, I keep forgetting that changeling/mistform creatures were part of the reason why they decided to keep specific creature types from having any rules baggage.
I also agree with the consensus that some of the Nephilim would be extremely underpowered as commanders when compaired to the others. However since the Nephilim remain the only four color creatures ever printed I feel that WOTC may be compelled to print new legendary ones that perhaps have abilities similar to the original Nephilim.
Now there's a thought. They could just reprint the Nephilim straight up, but with new names. It would plug that hole without altering the originals and smooth over having to house rule the Nephilim for commanders. I'd be on board for that, and they're so unplayed that having 8-of for legacy and vintage wouldn't even make a ripple.
Weirdly enough, someone asked about that earlier this week on Blogatog.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/145289446313/so-we-know-that-wizards-doesnt-do-functional#notes
That's not a no, but he makes it sound unlikely.
I don't have a playgroup either, I'm lucky if I get a game at a prerelease, but the point remains that you can ask the other players if they minded you playing an illegal commander. Unless your LGS has some sort of league or tracking/points, I don't see why the store would care what the group decides. The rules of Commander are not WotC's rules. Stores around me have a night for commander, but it's just a time and place for people to meet up and play. If someone asked to play a nephilim or Arlinn as their commander, I'd be fine with it. I'm not sure how that could affect WPN. Sorry if the players in your area are sticklers for the consensus rules or the stores somehow would ban it.
At least with getting 4 color legendaries you can keep a nephilim as a back up general (or visa versa) for the right group.
Considering we're looking at 5 legends, for 1 to be incredible, 2 to be pretty cool, and 2 to be mediocre...that's a lot better than the total pool of legendaries, on average, I'll tell you that.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6