Kinda boring, not incredibly powerful, maybe...but most legendaries are pretty boring/weak as commanders, even when they're pushed for standard (i.e. avacyn).
Considering we're looking at 5 legends, for 1 to be incredible, 2 to be pretty cool, and 2 to be mediocre...that's a lot better than the total pool of legendaries, on average, I'll tell you that.
Dont we usually get 2 new legends per deck aka 10 new legends? I dont think its super important because your math is mostly on but I suspect that we will get a higher mediocre count and less in the incredible because thats what it feels like they have been giving us the last few commander sets. I dont think I would call any of the legends we got last year incredible.... in fact, it was a heavier bleh cycle of legends last year.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
How I imagine this could be solved is in the simplest way, having the rules committee create a ruling specifically to make them legal commanders. Sort of like how Stoneforge Mystic was legal in standard via the War of Attrition event deck and Nightmare is standard today.
Dont we usually get 2 new legends per deck aka 10 new legends? I dont think its super important because your math is mostly on but I suspect that we will get a higher mediocre count and less in the incredible because thats what it feels like they have been giving us the last few commander sets. I dont think I would call any of the legends we got last year incredible.... in fact, it was a heavier bleh cycle of legends last year.
I don't know Meren is a powerhouse commander, Mazirek is really strong as a combo piece and Anya and Karlov were both contenders for best in color until they were outdone by Avacyn and Ayil a couple of months later. And that's only ones I think are really good, I'd say Arjun, Ezuri, Kaseto and Mizzix also allow for interesting decks that weren't really well supported before.
Anya and Karlov were both contenders for best in color until they were outdone by Avacyn and Ayil a couple of months later.
You seriously think Archangel Avacyn is the best RW Commander
(or that Anya, Merciless Angel ever held that title)?!
I still think Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is best as she supports a number of strategies.
Seven mana is a *lot*, but it isn't hard to win the turn she comes down.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
How I imagine this could be solved is in the simplest way, having the rules committee create a ruling specifically to make them legal commanders. Sort of like how Stoneforge Mystic was legal in standard via the War of Attrition event deck and Nightmare is standard today.
You honestly think that after all this time, the rules committee would finally create a special ruling to allow Nephilims to be commanders, when their eligibility is less relevant than it has ever been due to the printing of actual 4 colour legendaries? Following a pattern of reprint commanders in each preconstructed deck is not important enough to make a significant rules change to accommodate it.
I wonder if Wizards will include the Nephilim in the Commander decks, and then in the liner notes for the product say something along the lines of
"And remember, Commander is a format for fun. As long as it's okay with your playgroup, you're free to try anything! Like mixing it up with Planar Cards (currently available in the Planechase Anthologies collection) or using the 4-Colored Non-Legendary Nephilim as Commanders!"
Probably not, but a man can dream of stupid, stupid things.
I wonder if Wizards will include the Nephilim in the Commander decks, and then in the liner notes for the product say something along the lines of
"And remember, Commander is a format for fun. As long as it's okay with your playgroup, you're free to try anything! Like mixing it up with Planar Cards (currently available in the Planechase Anthologies collection) or using the 4-Colored Non-Legendary Nephilim as Commanders!"
Probably not, but a man can dream of stupid, stupid things.
Why would Wizards do something confusing and unnecessary like that in the product where they will be printing actual legal 4 colour commanders? I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't even include the Nephilim, as Wizards has repeatedly said they thought they were poorly designed. I really can't understand why people are so hung up on this, especially when they will finally be printing actual 4 colour legendary creatures.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Well maybe it wasn't entirely clear, but I meant in the context of the 4 colour Commander product being released. They've never made a rules change like this before, so why would they do it now when it is less relevant than it has ever been before? There is absolutely no precedent or indication that they will errata or change the rules for Nephilim, especially since most of R&D seems to think they were poorly designed and have said so on multiple occasions. For them to do it now, when they are printing real legal 4 colour legendaries, would be confusing and nonsensical.
Well maybe it wasn't entirely clear, but I meant in the context of the 4 colour Commander product being released. They've never made a rules change like this before, so why would they do it now when it is less relevant than it has ever been before? There is absolutely no precedent or indication that they will errata or change the rules for Nephilim, especially since most of R&D seems to think they were poorly designed and have said so on multiple occasions. For them to do it now, when they are printing real legal 4 colour legendaries, would be confusing and nonsensical.
Not asking for a rules change. I know they don't do functional errata, and they won't need to thanks to this new set.
It's just nice to have a reminder (or notice) in the product that your playgroup is more important than the "rules" and that, if you want, you can do things that are fun and/or stupid, and break the rules if everyone's cool with it. Because Commander isn't really a competitive format. Unless you and your friends make it that way. And that's fine too. Because that's how your playgroup wants to do it.
EDIT: Also, it doesn't really matter if they're poorly designed? The effects aren't actually broken, and since they've said they're poorly designed and unlikely to make them again, that means the effects only show up one one card. That's the kind of thing that gets Johnny/Jenny interested.
It's just nice to have a reminder (or notice) in the product that your playgroup is more important than the "rules" and that, if you want, you can do things that are fun and/or stupid, and break the rules if everyone's cool with it. Because Commander isn't really a competitive format. Unless you and your friends make it that way. And that's fine too. Because that's how your playgroup wants to do it.
Why do they need to do this? It's self evident, and has the potential to confuse players if Wizards appears to be officially sanctioning the use of non-legendary creatures as Commanders. Commander may not be a competitive format, but it is an FNM format and they don't want to be encouraging kids to go to FNM with illegal Commander decks because the insert told them it was okay.
I kind of find this baffling, to be honest. We all know that house rules are acceptable in some casual groups, but Wizards has an interest in maintaining a structure of consistent rules for LGS play.
Well, to be fair; they put Trade Secrets in a precon Commander deck despite it being banned in the format. I'd say that's pretty confusing for new players, too.
Edit: oops, you're right. It wasn't banned until 2013. my memory is le poopoo.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Well, yes it is niche and there is not a ton of design space, but that is why I want to see that explored and a commander product is the perfect fit for that.
4 color matters is not a good theme for a standard block and we will probably never see this.
So I am quite excited to see what they came up with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Am I the only person who agrees with Maro that four-color is too niche?
That's human nature for ya. It's a real challenge, probably one of the hardest to do well in Magic card design, along with Contraptions. That's why we (and MaRo as well) want to overcome them.
Besides, it's only a single card, I'm confident that being niche won't be a problem. In fact, I hope the deck themes end up being a bit niche as well. Zedruu is a very niche Commander and she's pretty popular.
Am I the only person who agrees with Maro that four-color is too niche?
I tend to agree that 4-c is design space that really doesn't need to be explored. They will probably do a few interesting things with the decks but i doubt in a few years many people would say "wow i am really glad they did that 4-c set"
Being a bit of a completionist, this makes me very happy. I already had a deck for every other color / combination (except w/r) and the 4c gap kept chewing on the ol' ocd nerve. Hoping conspiracy 2 fixes the w/r problem and then i will be sane. I can't possibly be alone in feeling this way
The language list. Other products have either been in the big 3 markets (USA, Japan, Mainland China) or in 10 languages.
This product is leaving out Russian and Chinese(Traditional).
Chinese Traditional is unique to the Hong Kong and Taiwan markets. Already there is controversy over Nintendo caving to Mainland Chinese pressure to not produce a Hong Kong-Taiwan version of Pokemon. Could this be something similar? Why were those two omitted?
Am I the only person who agrees with Maro that four-color is too niche?
4-color is certainly hard to design for, both flavorwise and mechanically. MaRo often said that 4-color design often turn out to be "not blue" or "not red" etc. However, 4-color designs have been requested for years now, even more desperately since EDH has become popular. I'm pretty sure that some nice designs surfaced over the years and have been put aside until the time is right. I have no doubt that we'll get at least one 4-c-commander with extremely hamfisted design, but they would not release 4-color if they hadn't come up with something nice, not if there are low hanging fruits left to grab (like allied commander).
The language list. Other products have either been in the big 3 markets (USA, Japan, Mainland China) or in 10 languages.
This product is leaving out Russian and Chinese(Traditional).
Chinese Traditional is unique to the Hong Kong and Taiwan markets. Already there is controversy over Nintendo caving to Mainland Chinese pressure to not produce a Hong Kong-Taiwan version of Pokemon. Could this be something similar? Why were those two omitted?
This is strange to me as well - if they're releasing in nearly every language why jot Russian and T-chinese? I'd buy a Russian commander precon in a heartbeat
Depending on how pretty legends are I might still go for S-Chinese or German but I'll probably stick with English for simplicity
If you look at previous Commander Sets, here's how it's been:
Magic: the Gathering Commander; English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, and Spanish
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2013; English, Japanese, French, German, Italian, and Spanish
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2014; English, Japanese, French, Italian, German, Spanish, and Chinese Simplified
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2015; English, Japanese, French, Italian, German, Spanish, and Chinese Simplified
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2016; English, Japanese, French, Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and Chinese Simplified
So, it's actually gone up in the amount of languages they're in. They weren't ever in Russian or Traditional to begin with, so it's unlikely something akin to the current Pokemon issue.
712.5b The controller of another player can't make choices or decisions for that player that aren't called for by the rules or by any objects. The controller also can't make any choices or decisions for the player that would be called for by the tournament rules.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
Dont we usually get 2 new legends per deck aka 10 new legends? I dont think its super important because your math is mostly on but I suspect that we will get a higher mediocre count and less in the incredible because thats what it feels like they have been giving us the last few commander sets. I dont think I would call any of the legends we got last year incredible.... in fact, it was a heavier bleh cycle of legends last year.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I don't know Meren is a powerhouse commander, Mazirek is really strong as a combo piece and Anya and Karlov were both contenders for best in color until they were outdone by Avacyn and Ayil a couple of months later. And that's only ones I think are really good, I'd say Arjun, Ezuri, Kaseto and Mizzix also allow for interesting decks that weren't really well supported before.
You seriously think Archangel Avacyn is the best RW Commander
(or that Anya, Merciless Angel ever held that title)?!
I still think Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is best as she supports a number of strategies.
Seven mana is a *lot*, but it isn't hard to win the turn she comes down.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim isn't bad, but she's not so amazing as to make Karlov of the Ghost Council obsolete already.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
You honestly think that after all this time, the rules committee would finally create a special ruling to allow Nephilims to be commanders, when their eligibility is less relevant than it has ever been due to the printing of actual 4 colour legendaries? Following a pattern of reprint commanders in each preconstructed deck is not important enough to make a significant rules change to accommodate it.
"And remember, Commander is a format for fun. As long as it's okay with your playgroup, you're free to try anything! Like mixing it up with Planar Cards (currently available in the Planechase Anthologies collection) or using the 4-Colored Non-Legendary Nephilim as Commanders!"
Probably not, but a man can dream of stupid, stupid things.
Why would Wizards do something confusing and unnecessary like that in the product where they will be printing actual legal 4 colour commanders? I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't even include the Nephilim, as Wizards has repeatedly said they thought they were poorly designed. I really can't understand why people are so hung up on this, especially when they will finally be printing actual 4 colour legendary creatures.
If you've never wished a nonlegendary creature like Havengul Lich or Master Biomancer were legendary,
you aren't playing enough EDH.
Both Ink-Treader Nephilim and Yore-Tiller Nephilim would make excellent Commanders,
and given that I've seen people run Commanders like Sivitri Scarzam and Selenia, Dark Angel,
I'm pretty sure all five of them would see play as Commanders *somewhere*.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Well maybe it wasn't entirely clear, but I meant in the context of the 4 colour Commander product being released. They've never made a rules change like this before, so why would they do it now when it is less relevant than it has ever been before? There is absolutely no precedent or indication that they will errata or change the rules for Nephilim, especially since most of R&D seems to think they were poorly designed and have said so on multiple occasions. For them to do it now, when they are printing real legal 4 colour legendaries, would be confusing and nonsensical.
Not asking for a rules change. I know they don't do functional errata, and they won't need to thanks to this new set.
It's just nice to have a reminder (or notice) in the product that your playgroup is more important than the "rules" and that, if you want, you can do things that are fun and/or stupid, and break the rules if everyone's cool with it. Because Commander isn't really a competitive format. Unless you and your friends make it that way. And that's fine too. Because that's how your playgroup wants to do it.
EDIT: Also, it doesn't really matter if they're poorly designed? The effects aren't actually broken, and since they've said they're poorly designed and unlikely to make them again, that means the effects only show up one one card. That's the kind of thing that gets Johnny/Jenny interested.
Why do they need to do this? It's self evident, and has the potential to confuse players if Wizards appears to be officially sanctioning the use of non-legendary creatures as Commanders. Commander may not be a competitive format, but it is an FNM format and they don't want to be encouraging kids to go to FNM with illegal Commander decks because the insert told them it was okay.
I kind of find this baffling, to be honest. We all know that house rules are acceptable in some casual groups, but Wizards has an interest in maintaining a structure of consistent rules for LGS play.
Edit: oops, you're right. It wasn't banned until 2013. my memory is le poopoo.
This is true.
And fiveod, how is your sanity still intact after the printing of Planeswalker Commanders?
You don't seem to accept change very well.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
4 color matters is not a good theme for a standard block and we will probably never see this.
So I am quite excited to see what they came up with.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
That's human nature for ya. It's a real challenge, probably one of the hardest to do well in Magic card design, along with Contraptions. That's why we (and MaRo as well) want to overcome them.
Besides, it's only a single card, I'm confident that being niche won't be a problem. In fact, I hope the deck themes end up being a bit niche as well. Zedruu is a very niche Commander and she's pretty popular.
I tend to agree that 4-c is design space that really doesn't need to be explored. They will probably do a few interesting things with the decks but i doubt in a few years many people would say "wow i am really glad they did that 4-c set"
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
Zedruu is one of the most flexible commanders out there. The girl can do it all.
The language list. Other products have either been in the big 3 markets (USA, Japan, Mainland China) or in 10 languages.
This product is leaving out Russian and Chinese(Traditional).
Chinese Traditional is unique to the Hong Kong and Taiwan markets. Already there is controversy over Nintendo caving to Mainland Chinese pressure to not produce a Hong Kong-Taiwan version of Pokemon. Could this be something similar? Why were those two omitted?
4-color is certainly hard to design for, both flavorwise and mechanically. MaRo often said that 4-color design often turn out to be "not blue" or "not red" etc. However, 4-color designs have been requested for years now, even more desperately since EDH has become popular. I'm pretty sure that some nice designs surfaced over the years and have been put aside until the time is right. I have no doubt that we'll get at least one 4-c-commander with extremely hamfisted design, but they would not release 4-color if they hadn't come up with something nice, not if there are low hanging fruits left to grab (like allied commander).
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
This is strange to me as well - if they're releasing in nearly every language why jot Russian and T-chinese? I'd buy a Russian commander precon in a heartbeat
Depending on how pretty legends are I might still go for S-Chinese or German but I'll probably stick with English for simplicity
Magic: the Gathering Commander; English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, and Spanish
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2013; English, Japanese, French, German, Italian, and Spanish
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2014; English, Japanese, French, Italian, German, Spanish, and Chinese Simplified
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2015; English, Japanese, French, Italian, German, Spanish, and Chinese Simplified
Magic: the Gathering Commander 2016; English, Japanese, French, Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and Chinese Simplified
So, it's actually gone up in the amount of languages they're in. They weren't ever in Russian or Traditional to begin with, so it's unlikely something akin to the current Pokemon issue.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
How about this?