I mean, there is that... You know, while we're talking about issues with Modern and such.
As far as BBE, yes, it was the most "powerful" card in Standard when Jund was dominant, but it didn't warp the meta as much as you may think, seeing as the card basically doesn't get interacted with, and doesn't interact with your opponent. It isn't like they could prepare for an enemy BBE; just the spell (and card advantage) it generated. But power level and ability to warp a format are different things. However, look through all of the decks that were good then. Count up the creatures that went 1 for 1 with Lightning Bolt.
...It's hard to really tell what your argument is.
I was agreeing with an earlier post about Lightning Bolt's meta warping ability.
From what I can tell you just REALLY hate Lightning Bolt.
I've repeated multiple times that I have nothing against the card, don't see it as overpowered, or bad for a format. If you draw that I hate the card from that, well, you're probably choosing to believe that so that you can argue that instead of what I am actually saying. Nothing I can do for you there.
Your arguments seem kind of.. foolish to begin with. I mean, you're saying that Bloodbraid Elf didn't warp the meta,
Why do you keep splitting? I said that BBE didn't warp the meta as much as you may think. I even explained that it is because the meta couldn't shift itself around BBE.
but Lightning Bolt was far more destructive?
Warping. The meta never got destroyed, so I would not have used the word destructive.
You use powerful in quotations like it's an abstract idea.
Well, you picked up on one thing. I was beginning to wonder if you could read.
Of the two I'd like to see in Standard, Bloodbraid or Lightning Bolt, Bolt is far more ideal.
Because it is less overpowered. But it would warp the meta more. Hell, just on basis of fitting into more decks it would do more harm.
I mean, lets look at Modern, Bloodbraid Elf is banned, Lightning Bolt is legal.
Then why are we discussing Bloodbraid Elf in this topic about Modern?
And Creatures that went 1/1 with Lightning Bolt? Reliquary, BoP, Wild Nacatyl, Kor Skyfisher, White Knight, Steppe Lynx, Plated Geopede.
None of which were in the decklist that you provided as proof that Lightning Bolt didn't shape metas.
Not gonna lie, this is pretty tiresome. If you want to discuss things, I'm down. But if you just want to argue against some in-your-head version of what I'm saying, do it in your diary.
Stores don't really have a reason to support the format outside it's "PPTQ Season" anymore...
Because "people will pay to play in Modern events" is not a reason? The shop I go to is large and generally has pretty popular modern events. I think I have talked to two players that were at all concerned about PwP, the rest seem to just want to do as well as they can in the event they are playing in.
Stores don't really have a reason to support the format outside it's "PPTQ Season" anymore...
Because "people will pay to play in Modern events" is not a reason? The shop I go to is large and generally has pretty popular modern events. I think I have talked to two players that were at all concerned about PwP, the rest seem to just want to do as well as they can in the event they are playing in.
Cool, localy there are 6 ADV stores and 2 ADV+ stores at 30 minute drive from each other and they'd rather fight for T2 attendance than hold any other kind of event.
One has Modern FNM each week, one has Modern FNM once a month, one holds the Legacy league and has to cater to EDH the rest of the open days because T2 little *****s pretty much boycotted them and won't go to their FNMs.
So at least here, "people will pay to play Modern" is met with "more people we care about more will pay to play Standard".
Cool, localy there are 6 ADV stores and 2 ADV+ stores at 30 minute drive from each other and they'd rather fight for T2 attendance than hold any other kind of event.
One has Modern FNM each week, one has Modern FNM once a month, one holds the Legacy league and has to cater to EDH the rest of the open days because T2 little *****s pretty much boycotted them and won't go to their FNMs.
So at least here, "people will pay to play Modern" is met with "more people we care about more will pay to play Standard".
Well not here. Standard and Modern seem to be about an even split. EDH is big too, with the bigger shops all having a weekly EDH night. You couldn't get enough people here to play Legacy of you offered free pizza and erotic dancers.
Guess neither of us should be making sweeping predictions about the format based on our personal experience.
You are kidding right? Every deck in that top 8 that played red, played 3 (1 deck) or 4 bolts, then how many creatures that die to bolt are there? How many of those can't provide an advantage even if they got bolted? There are 2 decks in there with boltable creatures, a white weeny and a mithyc bant abzan, lotus cobra was a perfectly busted card in that format (because of the fetchlands) that saw almost no play in it's time in standard, emeria angel is a perfectly standard playable card and it also saw little to no play, even though those could generate something through bolt, it wasn't enough (go ahead, look it up), you are honestly making my case for me.
I already cited MaRo's opinion on this, and him having done 20+ years of magic design, and giving an opinion on this matter should be enough, you more than likely can't even list the rules for tic tac toe, let a lone design a whole set worth of cards (or several), you can't really be so arrogant to think you know better than not only the head designer for MtG, but the whole company, specially when you have been proven wrong by mere players in this forum.
Enough with the thoughtseize/bolt arguments, it leads us nowhere, any suggestion to fix modern that starts with changing standard, that is at an all time high along with the game as a whole, can be considered wrong only on the grounds that you are trying to fix a (secondary) format, by ruining another more popular and profitable one.
If that is your definition, then does it not prove yourself wrong? You CAN screw yourself up with thoughtseize. It has happened tons of times, both competitively and casually, on and off camera, on every format of magic.
Reading keeps happening even it would be easier to stop where you want to.
I didn't think that was a definition since, well, it doesn't seem to apply... At least, if it does, it disproves your perspective. That definition is simple and frankly it might just be effective, but at the same time, it paints a very different picture than what your point is trying to get across.
I kept it simple for you on purpose because I didn't want to have to define every word in the language I we are using. It was an off the top of my head definition to try and simplify things for you. I thought maybe your Google was broked or something. https://www.google.com/search?q=skill&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Anyway, enough, my curiosity isn't worth this much
I wouldn't place much value in any of your mental faculties.
lets get back on topic.
Lets see where this goes...
The biggest issue here is that some people have this idea that warping a format is a bad thing.
I'm not one of them, as I've stated. What does this has to do with no modern pro tour?
It could be, and it could not be. Without any more information, this tells us nothing. A format could be better off with a few warping cards than without. Some examples are positive, others negative. In some cases, without the cards there would be less variety, which is the metric by which I judge how good a format is, and in other cases, without the cards there would be more.
The conclusion I draw from this is that we should not look at whether there exist cards that warp the format or not as a method of determining whether a format is in a good state or not, as that would be oversimplifying things and can lead to wrong conclusions.
I agree, as I have stated multiple times, but what does this have to with there being no modern pro tour?
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
So, how about we get back on track and stop the flaming, aye?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
So... no more modern PT, does it mean the format is disappearing? I don't believe so, the format is much beloved for it to disappear, is wizards no longer supporting the format? Again, I don't think so, we got MM2015, and we are likely to get another one, probably next year. Does the format has it's problems? Sure, quite a few, do any of those problems get solved by retiring modern from the PT stage? I believe it's a step in the right direction.
- Format stalling, this is the big one, yes you can metagame in this format, but overall the format usually gets to a point where only a handful of 2 or 3 decks are actually likely to win any given tournament, this led WoTC to precipitate into artificial shake ups using the banned list before the modern PT, most of those changes were going to happend sooner or later, but WoTC wanting a more novel format for the PT led them to adopt this strategy.
- Reprints, yes modern is in sore need of some reprints to keep the format accessible, not financially, but having enough cards circulating so any given person can buy into the format if it's willing to pay the price, this is a complex problem, WoTC has made experiments with reprints in standard, and those experiments haven't gone well, so for the time being I don't expect them to make high profile modern reprints in standard until they figure out a way to do so, without affecting standard in the process.
So... no more modern PT, does it mean the format is disappearing? I don't believe so, the format is much beloved for it to disappear, is wizards no longer supporting the format? Again, I don't think so, we got MM2015, and we are likely to get another one, probably next year. Does the format has it's problems? Sure, quite a few, do any of those problems get solved by retiring modern from the PT stage? I believe it's a step in the right direction.
- Format stalling, this is the big one, yes you can metagame in this format, but overall the format usually gets to a point where only a handful of 2 or 3 decks are actually likely to win any given tournament, this led WoTC to precipitate into artificial shake ups using the banned list before the modern PT, most of those changes were going to happend sooner or later, but WoTC wanting a more novel format for the PT led them to adopt this strategy.
- Reprints, yes modern is in sore need of some reprints to keep the format accessible, not financially, but having enough cards circulating so any given person can buy into the format if it's willing to pay the price, this is a complex problem, WoTC has made experiments with reprints in standard, and those experiments haven't gone well, so for the time being I don't expect them to make high profile modern reprints in standard until they figure out a way to do so, without affecting standard in the process.
I don't know why WOTC doesn't print Modern/Legacy only cards. Like Commander cards with Legacy/Vintage. The reason format gets stale is because the cards need to pass the Standard/Limited test, which means in most cases they're at best at a power level to be a supplement to a existing Modern deck. A "eternal" format only set allows WOTC to have a lot more freedom in card design and encourages creative deck building.
So... no more modern PT, does it mean the format is disappearing? I don't believe so, the format is much beloved for it to disappear, is wizards no longer supporting the format? Again, I don't think so, we got MM2015, and we are likely to get another one, probably next year. Does the format has it's problems? Sure, quite a few, do any of those problems get solved by retiring modern from the PT stage? I believe it's a step in the right direction.
- Format stalling, this is the big one, yes you can metagame in this format, but overall the format usually gets to a point where only a handful of 2 or 3 decks are actually likely to win any given tournament, this led WoTC to precipitate into artificial shake ups using the banned list before the modern PT, most of those changes were going to happend sooner or later, but WoTC wanting a more novel format for the PT led them to adopt this strategy.
- Reprints, yes modern is in sore need of some reprints to keep the format accessible, not financially, but having enough cards circulating so any given person can buy into the format if it's willing to pay the price, this is a complex problem, WoTC has made experiments with reprints in standard, and those experiments haven't gone well, so for the time being I don't expect them to make high profile modern reprints in standard until they figure out a way to do so, without affecting standard in the process.
I don't know why WOTC doesn't print Modern/Legacy only cards. Like Commander cards with Legacy/Vintage. The reason format gets stale is because the cards need to pass the Standard/Limited test, which means in most cases they're at best at a power level to be a supplement to a existing Modern deck. A "eternal" format only set allows WOTC to have a lot more freedom in card design and encourages creative deck building.
Well that has a reasoning that is not as intuitive but has a lot of logic once you hear the argument, standard legal sets have a ton of development involved (who knows exactly how much, but a lot), and as much development time as those sets get, they have been open about they doing close to cero modern testing and that's for standard legal sets, now supplemental sets don't get as much development time as standard legal one, and I guess the limited development they get it's focused on the format they are "targeting" meaning commander is only tested in a commander setting, conspiracy is tested in limited, etc. So if you want to introduce those cards into modern, you are more than likely to break something, in order to safely make these sets modern legal, they would need to pour considerably more resources into developing these sets, which is probably not feasible.
Edit: Forgot to add that having no modern product might help in this regard, as there not being a big spotlight on the format, lessens the impact of breaking something with supplemental sets, and those sets coming out in between standard legal ones (and ban announcements) make it so even if they break something, they can just ban it a couple of months later.
I think additional income from this new set might justify more testing. The set would also involve less costs since there's no story/flavor/(probably) new mechanic to design. And yeah bannings would also keep busted cards in check. The main issue would be the art. Not sure if the sales from a small(er) format would cover art costs for brand new cards.
Well, on the optimistic side, they wouldn't have to develop for standard, on the not so optimistic side, modern is a much bigger format than standard, so it's probably a lot harder to develop for, plus supplemental sets usually have a smaller print (even if they are not a limited print run like MM), therefor are not as profitable as standard legal ones, for those reasons, as much as I'd like for it to happen (fingers crossed), I'm not optimistic about it. Having no modern PT actually makes this scenario more likely (even if only a little) as the backlash for breaking the format wouldn't be as bad, as there's no big spotlight on modern anymore, and that is one of the reasons why supplemental sets are usually allowed in Legacy and vintage, the other one being, those formats are inherently broken, so a ban wouldn't be as big a deal as it would be in modern.
I think additional income from this new set might justify more testing. The set would also involve less costs since there's no story/flavor/(probably) new mechanic to design. And yeah bannings would also keep busted cards in check. The main issue would be the art. Not sure if the sales from a small(er) format would cover art costs for brand new cards.
Exactly. Seems like Modern Masters could become essentially a Modern Core Set. It would be mostly normal reprints, but with a chunk of new cards and a few Legacy reprints they don't want to send through Standard to introduce into the format.
I don't know why WOTC doesn't print Modern/Legacy only cards. Like Commander cards with Legacy/Vintage. The reason format gets stale is because the cards need to pass the Standard/Limited test, which means in most cases they're at best at a power level to be a supplement to a existing Modern deck. A "eternal" format only set allows WOTC to have a lot more freedom in card design and encourages creative deck building.
I think from their point of view it complicates the process of knowing what is in the format and what formats supplemental products feed. Right now it is very simple- anything printed in a standard legal set from 8th forward is modern legal. Of course also reprints of cards already legal in modern, but that is already the accepted rule for constructed formats. Supplemental products only bolster eternal formats, which of course Modern is not. Having some supplimental products that do bolster Modern and some that don't is confusing, and just changing the policy by allowing supplimental sets from a given point forward puts a real limitation on what can be included in these sets.
Also people seem to forget that there is a practical limit on how many sets Wizard's has time to design, and that can be printed in a given year. There is also a limit on how much product a player will buy in a given year, so there is a very real risk of spending more money to print more product, only to have a significant portion of the intended target player simply shift their MTG spending rather than increasing it. A player who buys 1 MMA pack rather than 3 boosters of the current set does not justify the printing of addional product.
you know what they should release to support modern? 30 cards "boosters" with a fixed content. a bit like precon decks, but without the restrain of actually being a playable deck. you can make them divided by color, containing staples of that color. you can put commons in 4x, uncommons in 2x and rare/mythics in 1x. so people still have to buy them in multiples if they want to have their set.
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
A) As to design time, yes, there are constraints, but these are not as fixed. If WotC wanted, they could simply increase their staff, double the number of design and development teams and increase set throughput that way. On the printing side, Carta Mundi and the other printers don't seeem to be running at peak capacity just yet, so there might just be a bit more capacity to squeeze more product.
B) I believe that consumption of magic is more elastic than inelastic. Some players will be more likely to spend more if given better reasons to do so. While some will purchase the same amount of sealed product regardless of how much they like the sets/formats/etc, there are others who are not so, and whose purchasing will increase and decrease. Maybe the limit is dynamic and as such, not as easy to reach? Magic's demographic is wide and heterogeneous.
Actually, I don't think WotC could just increase their staff - they'll probably need to write lots of financial reports to Hasbro explaining how more employees would raise the profit margin per employee higher than not. While our spending might be slightly more on the elastic end, I don't think it's that flexible to the point that if Modern was a "dedicated format", all players would spend twice as much (since they spend on both formats) directly to the costs, which would almost be doubled. Perhaps the spending of otherwise stagnant Modern players might make up for it, but at the end of the day from the financial business perspective it is still a relative unknown and therefore a risk.
Most risks that WotC don't require too much extra staff (Premium Decks, Clash Packs, Modern Masters), because they mainly use the same staff they've always had, which means if it's backfired, the higher-ups are willing to write it off as an experiment since it didn't incur Human Resources. If a "project" as big as "Modern R&D" fails to achieve targets, it means those newly hired people need to be laid off and the repercussions are much larger than "a simple experiment". It may sound heartless, but there's a good chance the suits at the highest levels only see numbers and if it doesn't reach, it could simply mean "cut people off" - Hasbro is a large corporation after all and the higher-ups are unlikely to want to risk their positions for "just a card game", so they usually recommend "cut lower-levels off (at WotC)" to protect themselves from the highest levels.
Similarly WotC doesn't want to create a bad rep of "we experiment and then have to kick people out" when they don't usually have too much control over whether they get to kick people out in the first place, hence it the "protection" cascades down on the lower levels. I think Modern Masters and the Pro Tour were their best attempts with their current resources to convince the higher-ups for more resources, but it might have apparently failed and the natural strain on maintaining these experiments are starting to show to be not worth harming the format further to prove that point.
Note that all this is just guesswork on my end and we don't really know what goes on in the corporate offices of WotC and Hasbro, but the guesswork was simply drawn from both the support given and taken away from the format from the past few years, because let's face it, we won't ever get those details from them so guesswork is the best we can take.
Why would making Modern only sets fix Modern? I mean, I can understand Legacy/ Vintage getting Commander and Conspiracy cards, but those formats have been the "every card ever" formats since the started letting Portal in. Modern was never meant to be so. It was meant to replace Extended, which they tried to fix and ended up hastening the death of. They should just let Modern die. It is not a sustainable format, having no rotation to keep it from getting stale/ requiring mass bannings.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
Well the argument you see here is that by printing Modern Only (and vintage and legacy), WoTC can introduce new cards that can impact the format, and put some more copies of the format's staple cards out there, without negatively impacting standard.
All of that sounds good, but I believe it has 2 problems (probably more, since as mere players, we don't know all the repercussions it would have):
- As discussed above, the effort to design, and develop (specially develop) a set of this kind is probably too much for a supplemental product.
- The financial impact a set like this would have have to be carefully pondered, as it's print run would have to be relatively small, so the prices of the format's staples aren't greatly impacted.
I know I'm gonna get a lot of flak over the second point, but it's true, every player has it's collection, small or big, we have it because we use it, and we know it's worth something whenever we want to cash out, otherwise we would get rid of all of our cards knowing that we could cash back in for a very small price. I know a few true collectors that buy several boxes every set's release, they don't care about secondary market prices, they care about their cards, I know that's probably not the case for all collectors, but still, the reserve list wasn't made for "collectors" like there's a secret society out there that wants the card to be expensive, it was made because all of us player want our collections to be worth something.
Oh absolutely, I didn't mean it is feasible or viable for them to do so - merely that it is POSSIBLE
Perhaps, perhaps not. That's the point, isn't it? The elastic vs inelastic scale is a continuum and it is hard to see where in the slider the demographic lies.
How do you figure? Could you explain?
My last line of my previous post here already indicates since there's no way we would get outright-transparent information of what goes on in the corporate offices of WotC and Hasbro, this is largely guesswork that draws from what we could see and in no way do I claim it to be accurate.
However, I do think it's safe to assume that they do operate more-or-less like traditional large corporations (considering the general consensus seems to be they seem to be still using some bad old-school corporate moves and let's not get to the PR in the recent year...) and I honestly really think that resources is something stretched tight in WotC. As for the elastic vs inelastic scale, my main point is that being difficult to pinpoint naturally means any move is a (relatively larger) risk (to what they've taken) and that's the point - such a large risk is something I don't think they as a traditional large corporation would take.
As a player, I also wished they had a dedicated Modern R&D section and those that have passion for the format, inside or outside the company would most likely also see that as the same thing. The point is, Modern is definitely at this point an established format and the people in WotC has more or less outright stated there isn't going to be a Modern R&D (with all the hint-dropping R&D works on Limited/Standard and they're going to try their best for Modern though)... which means that they aren't in control of the amount of the resources allocated to them.
Well, you're free to dismiss it due to lack of concrete evidence, but I'll just clarify once again it was all guesswork from the beginning and I never insisted it was true in any measure, just what I thought was the most plausible scenario that led the format for the past few years and what it is today, because honestly I don't think anyone in these forums has the actual scenario of what happened/is happening.
I have a very small store in a very rural area and nobody can afford standard.We play mostly modern because it's more affordable since older cards are allowed.Even getting access to all the new standard products is impossible while it's in rotation.
I still can't order a single intro deck from my suppliers because there isn't any not already allocated so I literally have no choice but to run modern events which to my players see as a dying format so they don't want to buy into those cards anymore.
I live on an island in canada an we don't have access to standard as much as we should yet that's all I'm supposed to have for events.How???
Magic wants standard,i can't get standard!So how is this supposed to be better?Maybe cities with big numbers can get it but I still sold almost 30k in strictly magic cards last year and for my 2k order I got 800 worth and most was accessories not booster boxes or decks.I haven't been able to get a fat pack that's in rotation still since my store opened!
Wizards doesn't see everything I know but they have made it impossible for me to move with them to standard even if my customers could afford it which they claim they cant.
Internet suppliers get precedence over my brick and mortar store since they have bigger orders and I'm new.
So I hold events,bought the tables and chairs,signed up with wizards and can't even get the product!!!If I want to run sealed or draft it has to be BotG or fate since that's all I can order.
My customers are not happy with standard and how us little guys CANT play it while the Internet sellers have lots of stock and I have none.
It's 130 bucks for a booster which is outrageous and I can't even buy them!
So after that long rant I'm stuck still wondering how much harder than it already is that I'm going to be able to support standard since I can't get it.
I have a very small store in a very rural area and nobody can afford standard.We play mostly modern because it's more affordable since older cards are allowed.Even getting access to all the new standard products is impossible while it's in rotation.
I still can't order a single intro deck from my suppliers because there isn't any not already allocated so I literally have no choice but to run modern events which to my players see as a dying format so they don't want to buy into those cards anymore.
I live on an island in canada an we don't have access to standard as much as we should yet that's all I'm supposed to have for events.How???
Magic wants standard,i can't get standard!So how is this supposed to be better?Maybe cities with big numbers can get it but I still sold almost 30k in strictly magic cards last year and for my 2k order I got 800 worth and most was accessories not booster boxes or decks.I haven't been able to get a fat pack that's in rotation still since my store opened!
Wizards doesn't see everything I know but they have made it impossible for me to move with them to standard even if my customers could afford it which they claim they cant.
Internet suppliers get precedence over my brick and mortar store since they have bigger orders and I'm new.
So I hold events,bought the tables and chairs,signed up with wizards and can't even get the product!!!If I want to run sealed or draft it has to be BotG or fate since that's all I can order.
My customers are not happy with standard and how us little guys CANT play it while the Internet sellers have lots of stock and I have none.
It's 130 bucks for a booster which is outrageous and I can't even buy them!
So after that long rant I'm stuck still wondering how much harder than it already is that I'm going to be able to support standard since I can't get it.
Seems like you're trying to swim upstream.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
I have a very small store in a very rural area and nobody can afford standard.We play mostly modern because it's more affordable since older cards are allowed.Even getting access to all the new standard products is impossible while it's in rotation.
I still can't order a single intro deck from my suppliers because there isn't any not already allocated so I literally have no choice but to run modern events which to my players see as a dying format so they don't want to buy into those cards anymore.
I live on an island in canada an we don't have access to standard as much as we should yet that's all I'm supposed to have for events.How???
Magic wants standard,i can't get standard!So how is this supposed to be better?Maybe cities with big numbers can get it but I still sold almost 30k in strictly magic cards last year and for my 2k order I got 800 worth and most was accessories not booster boxes or decks.I haven't been able to get a fat pack that's in rotation still since my store opened!
Wizards doesn't see everything I know but they have made it impossible for me to move with them to standard even if my customers could afford it which they claim they cant.
Internet suppliers get precedence over my brick and mortar store since they have bigger orders and I'm new.
So I hold events,bought the tables and chairs,signed up with wizards and can't even get the product!!!If I want to run sealed or draft it has to be BotG or fate since that's all I can order.
My customers are not happy with standard and how us little guys CANT play it while the Internet sellers have lots of stock and I have none.
It's 130 bucks for a booster which is outrageous and I can't even buy them!
So after that long rant I'm stuck still wondering how much harder than it already is that I'm going to be able to support standard since I can't get it.
Does your player base like to draft? Casual environment, just have to pay for packs and whatever extra you decide to put on it, etc. If they're paying for the packs thru draft then theoretically you can afford it, right?
I live on an island in canada an we don't have access to standard as much as we should yet that's all I'm supposed to have for events.How???
Just because there is no Modern Pro Tour doesn't mean you can't hold a Modern FNM every week. FNM can be almost anything as long as it does not allow proxies. I may me misunderstanding you, though.
I live on an island in canada an we don't have access to standard as much as we should yet that's all I'm supposed to have for events.How???
Just because there is no Modern Pro Tour doesn't mean you can't hold a Modern FNM every week. FNM can be almost anything as long as it does not allow proxies. I may me misunderstanding you, though.
Obviously his tiny Canadian island store only holds Pro Tours.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
I think everyone missed that I CANT get standard products while it's in rotation still.
Modern was all I had since those cards are avaliable to me since it's out of standard rotation.
Like a customer said,why buy the older cards if they won't be used anymore.
My beef is that I can't join the standard band wagon due to lack of supplies.When I don't get even half of a pre order that was made 2 months in advance for a sealed tournament that's bad for me,i ran out of cards before the night was over,every booster pack sold!
I put in another order and 3 WEEKS later 1 supplier was able to squeeze a single booster box(not case) of soi for me.No BFZ so I can do a draft or sealed with it.
How do I play standard which everyone is willing to do when I can't get the product?
I just forsee more problems for me getting stadard now.
I afraid modern is heading for what legacy has become and not one single person where I live plays legacy which is a bummer.
I can't draft,or do sealed or anything else that's standard,in an entire year I still can't buy a booster of khans...no supply.And it's out of rotation.
You mock me about the pro tour but I'm looking down the road,maybe you weren't around for legacy but it's very rare compared to what it once was and if modern goes that route then what's left?Will it fade into memory where only the "old guys" know what it was like?
So before you mock me for being concerned about where modern goes from here and the possibility that it will take legacys path,try and look back,probably before your time to those days.Look familar???
Vintage to legacy,legacy to extended,extended to modern,modern to...Where's legacy now?
Anyone under 30 ever play it?own cards for it? So would you buy cards for legacy still?
I was agreeing with an earlier post about Lightning Bolt's meta warping ability.
I've repeated multiple times that I have nothing against the card, don't see it as overpowered, or bad for a format. If you draw that I hate the card from that, well, you're probably choosing to believe that so that you can argue that instead of what I am actually saying. Nothing I can do for you there.
Why do you keep splitting? I said that BBE didn't warp the meta as much as you may think. I even explained that it is because the meta couldn't shift itself around BBE.
Warping. The meta never got destroyed, so I would not have used the word destructive.
Well, you picked up on one thing. I was beginning to wonder if you could read.
Because it is less overpowered. But it would warp the meta more. Hell, just on basis of fitting into more decks it would do more harm.
Then why are we discussing Bloodbraid Elf in this topic about Modern?
None of which were in the decklist that you provided as proof that Lightning Bolt didn't shape metas.
Not gonna lie, this is pretty tiresome. If you want to discuss things, I'm down. But if you just want to argue against some in-your-head version of what I'm saying, do it in your diary.
Because "people will pay to play in Modern events" is not a reason? The shop I go to is large and generally has pretty popular modern events. I think I have talked to two players that were at all concerned about PwP, the rest seem to just want to do as well as they can in the event they are playing in.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Cool, localy there are 6 ADV stores and 2 ADV+ stores at 30 minute drive from each other and they'd rather fight for T2 attendance than hold any other kind of event.
One has Modern FNM each week, one has Modern FNM once a month, one holds the Legacy league and has to cater to EDH the rest of the open days because T2 little *****s pretty much boycotted them and won't go to their FNMs.
So at least here, "people will pay to play Modern" is met with "more people we care about more will pay to play Standard".
Well not here. Standard and Modern seem to be about an even split. EDH is big too, with the bigger shops all having a weekly EDH night. You couldn't get enough people here to play Legacy of you offered free pizza and erotic dancers.
Guess neither of us should be making sweeping predictions about the format based on our personal experience.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
bantabzan, lotus cobra was a perfectly busted card in that format (because of the fetchlands) that saw almost no play in it's time in standard, emeria angel is a perfectly standard playable card and it also saw little to no play, even though those could generate something through bolt, it wasn't enough (go ahead, look it up), you are honestly making my case for me.I already cited MaRo's opinion on this, and him having done 20+ years of magic design, and giving an opinion on this matter should be enough, you more than likely can't even list the rules for tic tac toe, let a lone design a whole set worth of cards (or several), you can't really be so arrogant to think you know better than not only the head designer for MtG, but the whole company, specially when you have been proven wrong by mere players in this forum.
Enough with the thoughtseize/bolt arguments, it leads us nowhere, any suggestion to fix modern that starts with changing standard, that is at an all time high along with the game as a whole, can be considered wrong only on the grounds that you are trying to fix a (secondary) format, by ruining another more popular and profitable one.
https://www.google.com/search?q=intensive&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Reading keeps happening even it would be easier to stop where you want to.
I kept it simple for you on purpose because I didn't want to have to define every word in the language I we are using. It was an off the top of my head definition to try and simplify things for you. I thought maybe your Google was broked or something. https://www.google.com/search?q=skill&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I wouldn't place much value in any of your mental faculties.
Lets see where this goes...
I'm not one of them, as I've stated. What does this has to do with no modern pro tour?
I agree, as I have stated multiple times, but what does this have to with there being no modern pro tour?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
- Format stalling, this is the big one, yes you can metagame in this format, but overall the format usually gets to a point where only
a handful of2 or 3 decks are actually likely to win any given tournament, this led WoTC to precipitate into artificial shake ups using the banned list before the modern PT, most of those changes were going to happend sooner or later, but WoTC wanting a more novel format for the PT led them to adopt this strategy.- Reprints, yes modern is in sore need of some reprints to keep the format accessible, not financially, but having enough cards circulating so any given person can buy into the format if it's willing to pay the price, this is a complex problem, WoTC has made experiments with reprints in standard, and those experiments haven't gone well, so for the time being I don't expect them to make high profile modern reprints in standard until they figure out a way to do so, without affecting standard in the process.
I don't know why WOTC doesn't print Modern/Legacy only cards. Like Commander cards with Legacy/Vintage. The reason format gets stale is because the cards need to pass the Standard/Limited test, which means in most cases they're at best at a power level to be a supplement to a existing Modern deck. A "eternal" format only set allows WOTC to have a lot more freedom in card design and encourages creative deck building.
Edit: Forgot to add that having no modern product might help in this regard, as there not being a big spotlight on the format, lessens the impact of breaking something with supplemental sets, and those sets coming out in between standard legal ones (and ban announcements) make it so even if they break something, they can just ban it a couple of months later.
Exactly. Seems like Modern Masters could become essentially a Modern Core Set. It would be mostly normal reprints, but with a chunk of new cards and a few Legacy reprints they don't want to send through Standard to introduce into the format.
I think from their point of view it complicates the process of knowing what is in the format and what formats supplemental products feed. Right now it is very simple- anything printed in a standard legal set from 8th forward is modern legal. Of course also reprints of cards already legal in modern, but that is already the accepted rule for constructed formats. Supplemental products only bolster eternal formats, which of course Modern is not. Having some supplimental products that do bolster Modern and some that don't is confusing, and just changing the policy by allowing supplimental sets from a given point forward puts a real limitation on what can be included in these sets.
Also people seem to forget that there is a practical limit on how many sets Wizard's has time to design, and that can be printed in a given year. There is also a limit on how much product a player will buy in a given year, so there is a very real risk of spending more money to print more product, only to have a significant portion of the intended target player simply shift their MTG spending rather than increasing it. A player who buys 1 MMA pack rather than 3 boosters of the current set does not justify the printing of addional product.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Actually, I don't think WotC could just increase their staff - they'll probably need to write lots of financial reports to Hasbro explaining how more employees would raise the profit margin per employee higher than not. While our spending might be slightly more on the elastic end, I don't think it's that flexible to the point that if Modern was a "dedicated format", all players would spend twice as much (since they spend on both formats) directly to the costs, which would almost be doubled. Perhaps the spending of otherwise stagnant Modern players might make up for it, but at the end of the day from the financial business perspective it is still a relative unknown and therefore a risk.
Most risks that WotC don't require too much extra staff (Premium Decks, Clash Packs, Modern Masters), because they mainly use the same staff they've always had, which means if it's backfired, the higher-ups are willing to write it off as an experiment since it didn't incur Human Resources. If a "project" as big as "Modern R&D" fails to achieve targets, it means those newly hired people need to be laid off and the repercussions are much larger than "a simple experiment". It may sound heartless, but there's a good chance the suits at the highest levels only see numbers and if it doesn't reach, it could simply mean "cut people off" - Hasbro is a large corporation after all and the higher-ups are unlikely to want to risk their positions for "just a card game", so they usually recommend "cut lower-levels off (at WotC)" to protect themselves from the highest levels.
Similarly WotC doesn't want to create a bad rep of "we experiment and then have to kick people out" when they don't usually have too much control over whether they get to kick people out in the first place, hence it the "protection" cascades down on the lower levels. I think Modern Masters and the Pro Tour were their best attempts with their current resources to convince the higher-ups for more resources, but it might have apparently failed and the natural strain on maintaining these experiments are starting to show to be not worth harming the format further to prove that point.
Note that all this is just guesswork on my end and we don't really know what goes on in the corporate offices of WotC and Hasbro, but the guesswork was simply drawn from both the support given and taken away from the format from the past few years, because let's face it, we won't ever get those details from them so guesswork is the best we can take.
All of that sounds good, but I believe it has 2 problems (probably more, since as mere players, we don't know all the repercussions it would have):
- As discussed above, the effort to design, and develop (specially develop) a set of this kind is probably too much for a supplemental product.
- The financial impact a set like this would have have to be carefully pondered, as it's print run would have to be relatively small, so the prices of the format's staples aren't greatly impacted.
I know I'm gonna get a lot of flak over the second point, but it's true, every player has it's collection, small or big, we have it because we use it, and we know it's worth something whenever we want to cash out, otherwise we would get rid of all of our cards knowing that we could cash back in for a very small price. I know a few true collectors that buy several boxes every set's release, they don't care about secondary market prices, they care about their cards, I know that's probably not the case for all collectors, but still, the reserve list wasn't made for "collectors" like there's a secret society out there that wants the card to be expensive, it was made because all of us player want our collections to be worth something.
My last line of my previous post here already indicates since there's no way we would get outright-transparent information of what goes on in the corporate offices of WotC and Hasbro, this is largely guesswork that draws from what we could see and in no way do I claim it to be accurate.
However, I do think it's safe to assume that they do operate more-or-less like traditional large corporations (considering the general consensus seems to be they seem to be still using some bad old-school corporate moves and let's not get to the PR in the recent year...) and I honestly really think that resources is something stretched tight in WotC. As for the elastic vs inelastic scale, my main point is that being difficult to pinpoint naturally means any move is a (relatively larger) risk (to what they've taken) and that's the point - such a large risk is something I don't think they as a traditional large corporation would take.
As a player, I also wished they had a dedicated Modern R&D section and those that have passion for the format, inside or outside the company would most likely also see that as the same thing. The point is, Modern is definitely at this point an established format and the people in WotC has more or less outright stated there isn't going to be a Modern R&D (with all the hint-dropping R&D works on Limited/Standard and they're going to try their best for Modern though)... which means that they aren't in control of the amount of the resources allocated to them.
Well, you're free to dismiss it due to lack of concrete evidence, but I'll just clarify once again it was all guesswork from the beginning and I never insisted it was true in any measure, just what I thought was the most plausible scenario that led the format for the past few years and what it is today, because honestly I don't think anyone in these forums has the actual scenario of what happened/is happening.
I still can't order a single intro deck from my suppliers because there isn't any not already allocated so I literally have no choice but to run modern events which to my players see as a dying format so they don't want to buy into those cards anymore.
I live on an island in canada an we don't have access to standard as much as we should yet that's all I'm supposed to have for events.How???
Magic wants standard,i can't get standard!So how is this supposed to be better?Maybe cities with big numbers can get it but I still sold almost 30k in strictly magic cards last year and for my 2k order I got 800 worth and most was accessories not booster boxes or decks.I haven't been able to get a fat pack that's in rotation still since my store opened!
Wizards doesn't see everything I know but they have made it impossible for me to move with them to standard even if my customers could afford it which they claim they cant.
Internet suppliers get precedence over my brick and mortar store since they have bigger orders and I'm new.
So I hold events,bought the tables and chairs,signed up with wizards and can't even get the product!!!If I want to run sealed or draft it has to be BotG or fate since that's all I can order.
My customers are not happy with standard and how us little guys CANT play it while the Internet sellers have lots of stock and I have none.
It's 130 bucks for a booster which is outrageous and I can't even buy them!
So after that long rant I'm stuck still wondering how much harder than it already is that I'm going to be able to support standard since I can't get it.
Seems like you're trying to swim upstream.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Just because there is no Modern Pro Tour doesn't mean you can't hold a Modern FNM every week. FNM can be almost anything as long as it does not allow proxies. I may me misunderstanding you, though.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Obviously his tiny Canadian island store only holds Pro Tours.
Modern was all I had since those cards are avaliable to me since it's out of standard rotation.
Like a customer said,why buy the older cards if they won't be used anymore.
My beef is that I can't join the standard band wagon due to lack of supplies.When I don't get even half of a pre order that was made 2 months in advance for a sealed tournament that's bad for me,i ran out of cards before the night was over,every booster pack sold!
I put in another order and 3 WEEKS later 1 supplier was able to squeeze a single booster box(not case) of soi for me.No BFZ so I can do a draft or sealed with it.
How do I play standard which everyone is willing to do when I can't get the product?
I just forsee more problems for me getting stadard now.
I afraid modern is heading for what legacy has become and not one single person where I live plays legacy which is a bummer.
I can't draft,or do sealed or anything else that's standard,in an entire year I still can't buy a booster of khans...no supply.And it's out of rotation.
You mock me about the pro tour but I'm looking down the road,maybe you weren't around for legacy but it's very rare compared to what it once was and if modern goes that route then what's left?Will it fade into memory where only the "old guys" know what it was like?
So before you mock me for being concerned about where modern goes from here and the possibility that it will take legacys path,try and look back,probably before your time to those days.Look familar???
Vintage to legacy,legacy to extended,extended to modern,modern to...Where's legacy now?
Anyone under 30 ever play it?own cards for it? So would you buy cards for legacy still?