Thats cool if those are the rules and laws. Then why are the judges content in going along with it until they decide they want something out of it?
Its likely they were not fully aware of what proper treatment should be. Most workplaces these days are required to display posters with basic employee rights so that employees are made aware. I haven't been to a GP in a couple years but I don't recall anything like that showing up.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Thats cool if those are the rules and laws. Then why are the judges content in going along with it until they decide they want something out of it?
Its likely they were not fully aware of what proper treatment should be. Most workplaces these days are required to display posters with basic employee rights so that employees are made aware. I haven't been to a GP in a couple years but I don't recall anything like that showing up.
Claiming to be ignorant of the law does not hold up in court.
Besides that, if they are not receiving compensation, are they "employees"? They are not volunteers now?
And the signage argument is thin. People volunteer for varieties of outdoor work without any "worker rights" postings.
Thats cool if those are the rules and laws. Then why are the judges content in going along with it until they decide they want something out of it?
Its likely they were not fully aware of what proper treatment should be. Most workplaces these days are required to display posters with basic employee rights so that employees are made aware. I haven't been to a GP in a couple years but I don't recall anything like that showing up.
Claiming to be ignorant of the law does not hold up in court.
Besides that, if they are not receiving compensation, are they "employees"? They are not volunteers now?
And the signage argument is thin. People volunteer for varieties of outdoor work without any "worker rights" postings.
Actually if it turns out that they were supposed to be made aware of their rights and they were not it will hold up very well in court. Additionally the "ignorance of the law" is only useful in the reverse. Not knowing something is not okay does not grant clemency is the point not they didn't know their rights therefore they forfeit them. See also defendants must be informed of legal rights prior to questioning by authorities or their case could be dismissed. I don't know if any of that will come up but I think it is very premature to make judgments (pun intended) at this time without all of the information.
On the topic specifically, I'm really hesitant to see what happens. If the judges win wotc may just disband the judge program, and that's the end of Organized Play. If WotC wins then I'm expecting a lot of judges to get culled.
Why would they end organized play? That's an unrealistic outcome. Tournaments create demand which helps sell product and the demand that tournaments far exceeds the cost of ensuring that judges are paid a minimum wage with basic protections.
There has been a long history of judge "compensation" being sketchy, with boxes that they don't claim full value of on taxes, promos that many don't claim on taxes, etc. They can and should pay a fair wage for the people who are a critical part of their overall marketing strategy, especially if they are going to exercise direct control as they did recently with suspensions over leaks.
I don't see how the relationship between a judge-Wizards is any different than a lifeguard-"for-profit" gym. They are definitely "employees", by any reasonable measure. Can anyone with a legal background point me to certain supreme court cases that deal with these issues? I'd love to see what precedents the Court has set in the past.
P.S. I am so sick and tired of Wizards screwing people over. Judges and MTGO players need to be treated better.
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Renton, WA—A handful of individuals who have been Magic judges for many years recently brought two lawsuits against Wizards of the Coast alleging that participating in the Magic community as a judge equates to employment with Wizards. These lawsuits are meritless.
Case closed, I guess.
Next topic: Guess which judges are about to have their DCI numbers banned.
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The judges are asking for better conditions, wages, and overtime. Demand 11 is really interesting: "A mandatory injunction requiring Wizards to incorporate a separate non-profit recreational gaming entity that could lawfully utilize unpaid volunteers." No more direct WotC control.
Forgive the potential stoopid, but...
... is that not what the DCI is already?
Am I right in thinking that the DCI is players-only, and the judges are chasing a judges-only DCI?
Here's the issue that you seem to miss: volunteers deserve to be treated fairly too. You not getting a break or a meal at the soup kitchen is every bit as bullcrap as the judges not getting rest. Federal law mandates breaks and lunches for employees working more than six hours, and breaks for working under that (based on four hour increments). Why should the volunteers be treated different considering they are the ones helping put money in the company's pocket?
Not sure where you seem to think I disagree that volunteers should be treated fairly.
I do expect judges t be adults, and act like it. These Judges are not, they are being petty. It is a sad day when MTG judges cannot hold themselves accountable for making bad choices.
So if you do something to help others, get screwed during that process, and seek compensation for getting screwed, that's not "acting like an adult" or "holding themselves accountable"?
This lawsuit would not exist if it happened to a person 1 or 2 times. Acting like an adult means walking away from situations where you are being taken advantage of, not hanging onto it like a failing high school relationship, and holding yourself accountable when you are putting yourself in a position to continually be taken advantage of.
I actually heard this exact point in a different debate this week. In that one, he was saying that a girl should have taken responsibility for her attire when she was sexually assaulted.
In the world of debate, we call this "victim blaming". So the party at fault here is the ones who prevented the judges from being able to take breaks or get food, not the judges for allowing this happen to themselves.
There is a difference between sexual assault and being taken advantage of for doing something that was completely voluntary. The control of the situation, in this instance, is entirely in the hands of the individual volunteering their time to the organization taking advantage of them. In an assault situation, that is very much not the case.
I am sorry, but you are wrong and a great example of why everyone in this country is so eager to use a lawsuit as a means of not holding themselves accountable for making poor choices in life.
The judges are asking for better conditions, wages, and overtime. Demand 11 is really interesting: "A mandatory injunction requiring Wizards to incorporate a separate non-profit recreational gaming entity that could lawfully utilize unpaid volunteers." No more direct WotC control.
Forgive the potential stoopid, but...
... is that not what the DCI is already?
Am I right in thinking that the DCI is players-only, and the judges are chasing a judges-only DCI?
The DCI is just player and judge tracking. What they are asking is legal-speak for a separate entity for judges that can set wages and control workload.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Not sure where you seem to think I disagree that volunteers should be treated fairly.
I do expect judges t be adults, and act like it. These Judges are not, they are being petty. It is a sad day when MTG judges cannot hold themselves accountable for making bad choices.
So if you do something to help others, get screwed during that process, and seek compensation for getting screwed, that's not "acting like an adult" or "holding themselves accountable"?
This lawsuit would not exist if it happened to a person 1 or 2 times. Acting like an adult means walking away from situations where you are being taken advantage of, not hanging onto it like a failing high school relationship, and holding yourself accountable when you are putting yourself in a position to continually be taken advantage of.
I actually heard this exact point in a different debate this week. In that one, he was saying that a girl should have taken responsibility for her attire when she was sexually assaulted.
In the world of debate, we call this "victim blaming". So the party at fault here is the ones who prevented the judges from being able to take breaks or get food, not the judges for allowing this happen to themselves.
There is a difference between sexual assault and being taken advantage of for doing something that was completely voluntary. The control of the situation, in this instance, is entirely in the hands of the individual volunteering their time to the organization taking advantage of them. In an assault situation, that is very much not the case.
I am sorry, but you are wrong and a great example of why everyone in this country is so eager to use a lawsuit as a means of not holding themselves accountable for making poor choices in life.
On that I guess we are going to have to disagree.
The person above comparing the judges to volunteer lifeguards at profit gyms is spot on. They may be volunteers, but they are given the hours, responsibilities, and liabilities that an employee has. Therefore, they deserve many of the rights that employees have as well. No one is asking for job security, just the lunch breaks, rest breaks, and overtime that everyday employees receive.
As far the lawsuit goes, litigation is expensive, especially against a large entity. I highly doubt this was their first course of action.
I have to say, all you're doing is blaming people for getting screwed over by people who should know better. The fact you direct your ire at the judges ("Maybe they should get real jobs") shows a real lack of empathy.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
-- Warning not a lawyer just had to deal with some of these issues in real life --
The basis of the suit appears to be the certification program itself. I find it very difficult to believe that even if the plaintiffs were to win the initial judgement, the judgement would stand up on appeal because of the number and bank roll of the amicus briefs supporting Wizards on appeal. The majority of the tech world along with numerous professional organizations would be adversely affected by such a ruling and would seek to have it overturned.
On the other hand as several posters have pointed out the boundaries between independent contractors and employees are being shifted towards more workers becoming employees. I could also easily see a trial outcome that basically found that judges aren't Wizard's employees but are employees of the TO and recommend that the TOs be sued. In that case, you could see some type of settlement by Wizards to make sure the TOs are bankrupted. It's also very strange that the TOs weren't mentioned as co-defendants since they are much directly involved in the selection of judges for high level events.
For the actual lawyers, when would class members need to agree that they are part of class, before or after trial? Also what would be the implications of class members disputing the cause of action?
So if you do something to help others, get screwed during that process, and seek compensation for getting screwed, that's not "acting like an adult" or "holding themselves accountable"?
This lawsuit would not exist if it happened to a person 1 or 2 times. Acting like an adult means walking away from situations where you are being taken advantage of, not hanging onto it like a failing high school relationship, and holding yourself accountable when you are putting yourself in a position to continually be taken advantage of.
I actually heard this exact point in a different debate this week. In that one, he was saying that a girl should have taken responsibility for her attire when she was sexually assaulted.
In the world of debate, we call this "victim blaming". So the party at fault here is the ones who prevented the judges from being able to take breaks or get food, not the judges for allowing this happen to themselves.
There is a difference between sexual assault and being taken advantage of for doing something that was completely voluntary. The control of the situation, in this instance, is entirely in the hands of the individual volunteering their time to the organization taking advantage of them. In an assault situation, that is very much not the case.
I am sorry, but you are wrong and a great example of why everyone in this country is so eager to use a lawsuit as a means of not holding themselves accountable for making poor choices in life.
On that I guess we are going to have to disagree.
The person above comparing the judges to volunteer lifeguards at profit gyms is spot on. They may be volunteers, but they are given the hours, responsibilities, and liabilities that an employee has. Therefore, they deserve many of the rights that employees have as well. No one is asking for job security, just the lunch breaks, rest breaks, and overtime that everyday employees receive.
As far the lawsuit goes, litigation is expensive, especially against a large entity. I highly doubt this was their first course of action.
I have to say, all you're doing is blaming people for getting screwed over by people who should know better. The fact you direct your ire at the judges ("Maybe they should get real jobs") shows a real lack of empathy.
Look man, we had issues with this and the Judge rewards program and it negatively impacted Judges who were responsible and grown up enough to hold themselves accountable.
This is nothing but round 2 of a few people not able to keep their ***** together and be accountable adults.
You clearly have never done any sort of work on a volunteer basis to any scale that is remotely close to a GP.
You can lead a fool to wisdom, but your can't make them think and that is the moral of this story - and it is sad as ****.
The judges are asking for better conditions, wages, and overtime. Demand 11 is really interesting: "A mandatory injunction requiring Wizards to incorporate a separate non-profit recreational gaming entity that could lawfully utilize unpaid volunteers." No more direct WotC control.
Forgive the potential stoopid, but...
... is that not what the DCI is already?
Am I right in thinking that the DCI is players-only, and the judges are chasing a judges-only DCI?
The DCI is just player and judge tracking. What they are asking is legal-speak for a separate entity for judges that can set wages and control workload.
So could they not just expand the DCI's powers to make that happen? I was under the impression that the DCI was a separate legal entity from WotC already...
Judges have been getting screwed for a long, long time. Here's hoping they win the suit and the judge program gets overhauled to be more in line with a company that rakes in millions every quarter. As for Bergeot saying the lawsuits are meritless that's preaching to the choir. WotC would never say "there's merit to the lawsuits" as it could be used against them in court and WotC would just plain never say it for a great many other reasons as well.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Friendly reminder to keep your tone respectful towards both the judges and WOTC as we do not know the full details of what is going on here and what specifically prompted this lawsuit until we hear from one of the judges themselves, thank you.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
The argument of "well, they shouldn't have volunteered for the work if they didn't like it" is pretty flawed. The reason that the US has labor laws is because companies have the incentive and the power to take advantage of employees. That's why we have a minimum wage to begin with. Because otherwise employers would take advantage of employees and without any means to collectively bargain, the employees have no means to fight it. There has been talk, by the by, from time to time from judges who wanted to unionize. There has also been quiet talk, and not through any official channels, that judges attempting to form a union would find themselves quietly blacklisted from events.
Wizards stopped issuing GP foils specifically because they could be seen as compensation which would strengthen the employee argument. They have been treating judges as employees for years and have only recently tried to distance themselves from the concept. They want the perks of having employees without the financial drain. And I think the leakgazi bans put them in a bad spot, because they were exercising employer-like control over the judge program. Their hamfistedness there may end up being a key factor in this suit. Personally, I'm ok with Wizards being told they can't have their cake and eat it too.
They volunteered. They knew the circumstances going in. Its not like you cant ask other judges what its like or do research. But now somehow its all "unfair".
Again, it is literally illegal to volunteer for Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro. The only exception to this rule is that one is allowed to volunteer for public sector companies provided that the volunteer work performed has no relation to the work of the regular job within the company.
Also, the "class" being represented in this suit is Level 2 and above, so Wizards' attempt to distance themselves from the judges rings false especially considering the extremely draconian response to leakgate (Leakghazi?)
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would love a citation for this. My understanding is that already-employed people can't volunteer without additional compensation, but people who aren't in the direct employ of the company can volunteer if they so choose.
On the topic specifically, I'm really hesitant to see what happens. If the judges win wotc may just disband the judge program, and that's the end of Organized Play. If WotC wins then I'm expecting a lot of judges to get culled.
Who are volunteers? Based on the Supreme Court decisions and the federal Department of Labor interpretations, volunteers would be those who:
1. work without an expectation or receipt of compensation or benefits,
2. are not economically dependent on this position,
3. work on a less than full-time basis,
4. perform services of the kind typically associated with volunteer work (charitable purposes, such as help to minister to the comfort of the sick, elderly, indigent, infirm, or handicapped, and retarded or disadvantaged youth) and 5. who would not be displacing any paid workers.
A general rule emerges based on the criteria above: a “for profit” business (as opposed to a charity or a government employer) cannot use unpaid volunteers.
Judges do not perform charitable work and do, in fact, displace labor that otherwise would need to be paid for these tournaments to be operational (Referees in any professional sports league are paid)
If Hasbro actually tries to argue that judges are volunteers they will admit in court to a massive violation of labor law.
Wait, what judge is traveling to a GP/Pro Tour and not arranging compensation and/or requirements for their work? That simply does not happen in my area (STL). Area L2's always are responsible enough to negotiate for their travel and time compensation. They are certainly not negotiating with WOTC, they are contracted (albit, a under the table, verbally) by TO's and stores. WOTC contracts TO's to run events. These judges have a problem with not being compensated or being supplied breaks, and they are suing the wrong entity.
Also, it is a compete misnomer that you need judges to run an event. Only 1 judge is needed to run a GP. The TO can choose to use any level of judge outside of the head judge, including those who are not judges, to run the event. No TO does this because they want to run a good event. Hell, you can judge your FNM and Pre-releases without passing even the rules advisor tests.
The bottom line here is simple: Judges could decide to no longer show up at these events, thus, nobody gets to play competitive magic anymore and then ***** really hits the fan.
These guys volunteer their time to allow YOU to play magic in a competitive scene, without them, no competition. I mean in a way, they have leverage in this.
Wizards has been using "free" workers for a long time, and it's helped keep their costs down. We live in a day and age where this is no longer a realistic outlook on the business. And I understand completely why Judges would like to be compensated for their participation.
Lulz at "poor life choices". That's about the dumbest thing I've read on these boards in a long time.
If it means that I pay an extra 5$ in my tournament entry so the judges can get what they want, I'm totally okay with that.
I mean just getting away from the actual lawsuit for a moment but it's pretty insane that almost all compensation for judging is under-the-table. The entire Magic judge thing from top to bottom is a legal ghetto.
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Among other things, overtime compensation, lunch breaks, and rest breaks.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Besides that, if they are not receiving compensation, are they "employees"? They are not volunteers now?
And the signage argument is thin. People volunteer for varieties of outdoor work without any "worker rights" postings.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Why would they end organized play? That's an unrealistic outcome. Tournaments create demand which helps sell product and the demand that tournaments far exceeds the cost of ensuring that judges are paid a minimum wage with basic protections.
There has been a long history of judge "compensation" being sketchy, with boxes that they don't claim full value of on taxes, promos that many don't claim on taxes, etc. They can and should pay a fair wage for the people who are a critical part of their overall marketing strategy, especially if they are going to exercise direct control as they did recently with suspensions over leaks.
P.S. I am so sick and tired of Wizards screwing people over. Judges and MTGO players need to be treated better.
Case closed, I guess.
Next topic: Guess which judges are about to have their DCI numbers banned.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
Forgive the potential stoopid, but...
... is that not what the DCI is already?
Am I right in thinking that the DCI is players-only, and the judges are chasing a judges-only DCI?
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There is a difference between sexual assault and being taken advantage of for doing something that was completely voluntary. The control of the situation, in this instance, is entirely in the hands of the individual volunteering their time to the organization taking advantage of them. In an assault situation, that is very much not the case.
I am sorry, but you are wrong and a great example of why everyone in this country is so eager to use a lawsuit as a means of not holding themselves accountable for making poor choices in life.
The DCI is just player and judge tracking. What they are asking is legal-speak for a separate entity for judges that can set wages and control workload.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
On that I guess we are going to have to disagree.
The person above comparing the judges to volunteer lifeguards at profit gyms is spot on. They may be volunteers, but they are given the hours, responsibilities, and liabilities that an employee has. Therefore, they deserve many of the rights that employees have as well. No one is asking for job security, just the lunch breaks, rest breaks, and overtime that everyday employees receive.
As far the lawsuit goes, litigation is expensive, especially against a large entity. I highly doubt this was their first course of action.
I have to say, all you're doing is blaming people for getting screwed over by people who should know better. The fact you direct your ire at the judges ("Maybe they should get real jobs") shows a real lack of empathy.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The basis of the suit appears to be the certification program itself. I find it very difficult to believe that even if the plaintiffs were to win the initial judgement, the judgement would stand up on appeal because of the number and bank roll of the amicus briefs supporting Wizards on appeal. The majority of the tech world along with numerous professional organizations would be adversely affected by such a ruling and would seek to have it overturned.
On the other hand as several posters have pointed out the boundaries between independent contractors and employees are being shifted towards more workers becoming employees. I could also easily see a trial outcome that basically found that judges aren't Wizard's employees but are employees of the TO and recommend that the TOs be sued. In that case, you could see some type of settlement by Wizards to make sure the TOs are bankrupted. It's also very strange that the TOs weren't mentioned as co-defendants since they are much directly involved in the selection of judges for high level events.
For the actual lawyers, when would class members need to agree that they are part of class, before or after trial? Also what would be the implications of class members disputing the cause of action?
Don't give me this crap about not being able to volunteer for a for-profit company BS. Every single judge knows full well they WERE volunteering.
Besides, most tournaments are run locally by TO's, not WoTC.
I hope the lawsuit goes down in flames.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/686869-judge-program-reorganization
Look man, we had issues with this and the Judge rewards program and it negatively impacted Judges who were responsible and grown up enough to hold themselves accountable.
This is nothing but round 2 of a few people not able to keep their ***** together and be accountable adults.
You clearly have never done any sort of work on a volunteer basis to any scale that is remotely close to a GP.
You can lead a fool to wisdom, but your can't make them think and that is the moral of this story - and it is sad as ****.
So could they not just expand the DCI's powers to make that happen? I was under the impression that the DCI was a separate legal entity from WotC already...
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
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Wizards stopped issuing GP foils specifically because they could be seen as compensation which would strengthen the employee argument. They have been treating judges as employees for years and have only recently tried to distance themselves from the concept. They want the perks of having employees without the financial drain. And I think the leakgazi bans put them in a bad spot, because they were exercising employer-like control over the judge program. Their hamfistedness there may end up being a key factor in this suit. Personally, I'm ok with Wizards being told they can't have their cake and eat it too.
In brief according to http://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp:
and the actual breakdown of the problem can be found in http://nycbusiness-solutions.com/post/41865147923/can-for-profit-businesses-use-volunteers-by-arina#.VxijYzArKhc
Judges do not perform charitable work and do, in fact, displace labor that otherwise would need to be paid for these tournaments to be operational (Referees in any professional sports league are paid)
If Hasbro actually tries to argue that judges are volunteers they will admit in court to a massive violation of labor law.
Also, it is a compete misnomer that you need judges to run an event. Only 1 judge is needed to run a GP. The TO can choose to use any level of judge outside of the head judge, including those who are not judges, to run the event. No TO does this because they want to run a good event. Hell, you can judge your FNM and Pre-releases without passing even the rules advisor tests.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
The bottom line here is simple: Judges could decide to no longer show up at these events, thus, nobody gets to play competitive magic anymore and then ***** really hits the fan.
These guys volunteer their time to allow YOU to play magic in a competitive scene, without them, no competition. I mean in a way, they have leverage in this.
Wizards has been using "free" workers for a long time, and it's helped keep their costs down. We live in a day and age where this is no longer a realistic outlook on the business. And I understand completely why Judges would like to be compensated for their participation.
Lulz at "poor life choices". That's about the dumbest thing I've read on these boards in a long time.
If it means that I pay an extra 5$ in my tournament entry so the judges can get what they want, I'm totally okay with that.