I would need to see the actual lawsuit, but I would imagine that they are arguing that they are wizard employees, so they would receive benefits/compensation, rather than "consultant/freelance" work with stores.
The judges have more of a case than the release suggests - wizards has an incredible amount of control over judges, runs the certification program that allows them to judge official events, and provides them with all the rules and tools needed to do their work.
I'd like to see the actual suit to see what the judges want.
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
I'd love a little more context, opinion, etc. to start than "go read this article," but props for at least linking to a working article (which all too many users can't seem to do these days). The quality of OPs in Rumer has really dropped off a cliff lately. ANYWAY, onto the topic at hand...
This seems like the perfect story for a Vice or Slate writer to tackle. I wanna read THAT article, rather than a glorified press release from one of the parties involved. WotC isn't in any way capable of objectively/honestly commenting an active lawsuit against it, regardless of that suit's merits (or lack thereof).
Personally, I've never been super comfortable with the way the Judge system operates at the regional/national/international level. It seems like WotC and (other) Tournament Organizers are just using a vast network of "volunteers" to do serious, skill-intensive, work with massive time/travel commitments and strange, limited, generally non-monetary compensation.
That said, I've only ever been an L1. I've never traveled for work or play beyond Vegas. And clearly many Judges seem to function reasonably well within the current system, with minimal complaints. I would like to find out more from the Judge's side and get opinions from people/groups who arent't directly involved, though. I wanna learn more, and I'm open to being surprised or changing my mind.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Seriously, if you ever did judging just to get "rewarded" you started judging for the wrong reasons.
It allways was more of a community service for your store at first, and thats what pretty much any lvl 1 judge is about.
Any reward for doing so is just nice extra.
However, any judge that does way more than that, especially in "professional" level events like a Grand Prix for multiple days and the Pro Tour has much different demands and expectations, as the time and work invested increases substantial.
But even then, you would expect any judge to do that as a hobby, for fun, not for rewards and especially not as a "job".
Judges are a community service, you can do tournaments without judges at all, but magic is big enough and theres enough judges around to make some quality standards.
Seriously, if you ever did judging just to get "rewarded" you started judging for the wrong reasons.
It allways was more of a community service for your store at first, and thats what pretty much any lvl 1 judge is about.
Any reward for doing so is just nice extra.
However, any judge that does way more than that, especially in "professional" level events like a Grand Prix for multiple days and the Pro Tour has much different demands and expectations, as the time and work invested increases substantial.
But even then, you would expect any judge to do that as a hobby, for fun, not for rewards and especially not as a "job".
Judges are a community service, you can do tournaments without judges at all, but magic is big enough and theres enough judges around to make some quality standards.
It is literally against United States law to volunteer for a for-profit company.
While reading the original Complaint, the main argument by the plaintiffs is that WOTC failed to pay overtime, and provided adequate meal breaks for judges who were judging events.
I am not too well versed in law, but I am under the assumption that TO's provide compensation for the judges and the TO's are responsible to organizing overtime pay and meal breaks. I assume the judges are signing on has Independent contractors with he TO's. I do not know for sure, But I assume many TO's are non-profit organizations, which allows judges to volunteer to be under contract and not be considered employees (cannot say for sure)
How will the plaintiffs prove that they are employee's of Wizards of the coast.
I know that judges have dress code policies and can be terminated from the judge program by WOTC so they have some validity to the argument.
The crux of this argument is how are the plaintiffs going to prove that they are employees working for Wizards of the Coast, that yes even though they are paid by TO's, it is under the direction of WOTC that the Judge Program exists.
Very interesting.
No matter what though, I think many can agree that judges for big events should have better work conditions (IE set time for meal breaks, makee sure they work only 8 hours a day (which is CA law, in other states they do not pay overtime for over 8 hours in a day, but only if employee works over 40 hrs in a week). However whose responsibility is it to organize that. Wizards of the Coast or the Tournament Organizer. Either way, TO's are going to be footing thee bill and most likely be WOTC scapegoat in the court
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"Some call it a Habit, Cardboard Crack Addict
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Yea, those are MTG Bars. What can I say, I am a dork
I just read the complaint, and I think they have a pretty good case. WotC certifies judges, terminates judges, provides uniforms, keeps a database of active judges, and imposes requirements to keep judge status, which is a lot of direct control for independent contractors, let alone non-employees. I did a research project about a year ago on the distinction between ICs and employees; judges remind me of some delivery drivers that defeated the shipping company's defense that they were ICs. That was a 9th circuit case, so it would bind the court in the judge suit unless WotC can somehow distinguish the cases. Waiters, strippers, and cab drivers receive direct pay from customers, but that doesn't mean they aren't employees of the business they work at.
The judges are asking for better conditions, wages, and overtime. Demand 11 is really interesting: "A mandatory injunction requiring Wizards to incorporate a separate non-profit recreational gaming entity that could lawfully utilize unpaid volunteers." No more direct WotC control.
I think I actually lost IQ points with how ignorant that statement is. I have yet to meet a Judge that does not have an actual "real job," whether it be retail, office, service, or what-have-you. And what constitutes a "real job," anyway? The vast majority of Judges do this in their spare time, pouring untold hours into educating and preparing players and themselves for the betterment of the Magic community as a whole. Your statement makes it blatantly obvious that your only experience with the Judge program is from your encounters with Judges at tournaments, if even that, and not actual participation yourself.
As for the actual lawsuit, I can see arguments going either way, honestly. I don't see it ending well for either party, and this could very likely cause yet another sweeping change for the Judge Program and Organized Play as a whole based on how it turns out. Last year was tumultuous enough, we don't need it happening all over again.
Yeah, how horrible those judges are, wanting things like the ability to go eat during a 12-hour entirely unpaid shift. They deserve to be a disposable resource that a multi-million dollar corporation can use and discard.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Many corporations have certification programs that require annual testing and preforming certain duties to maintain certification. These are often offered to individuals outside the corporation to allow them to demonstrate to prospective employers that they have a certain skill level.
This is no different than what WOTC does with the judge program & this allows TOs a certain level of security when hiring these certified judges. Would you claim that a TO is the employer of a food vendor that is at an event, or is that food vendor a independent contractor? Why would this be any different for judges?
I looked over the complaint posted by SonofaBith, and although I'm not a lawyer, there appears to be merit to the plaintiff's lawsuit. The factual information summarizes how the current Judge program works on how much control Wizards has.
Since this is a class-action lawsuit, the plaintiffs probably aren't risking much money on their own. The attorneys must feel there is a case (and money) that can be won.
There's no way they can prove that they are employees. The most they could claim is some kind of subcontract relationship, but even that is a stretch.
They don't have to prove anything. They just need to convince 12 people that they are basically employees. And I think it is hard for someone outside of the whole Magic experience to understand, why you would work as volunteer for a for-profit organization.
Look at it this way: If you would be part of the jury and four guys would be telling you, that they and 1000 other people perform unpaid work for the benefit of JPMorgan Chase & Co. Would you assume they are real volunteers or would you think that someone really hates paying wages?
Depending on the jury Wizards will have a tough time explaining this.
Yeah, how horrible those judges are, wanting things like the ability to go eat during a 12-hour entirely unpaid shift. They deserve to be a disposable resource that a multi-million dollar corporation can use and discard.
It should only take 1 event for you to gain the expectation that that will not happen - thus you simply cut your losses.
Alright folks, as this is a highly inflammatory and touchy subject, I'm only going to say this once. Play nice. Don't insult judges or WOTC, warnings will be handed out from this point on. Try to maintain a respectful stance, please.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yeah, how horrible those judges are, wanting things like the ability to go eat during a 12-hour entirely unpaid shift. They deserve to be a disposable resource that a multi-million dollar corporation can use and discard.
It should only take 1 event for you to gain the expectation that that will not happen - thus you simply cut your losses.
Grow up.
If every judge took this route, there would be no judges, no events, and basically no sanctioned game. Is that what you want?
I don't know, I just sort of hold the opinion that judges are people too, and more importantly deserve to be compensated for working as employees.
Private Mod Note
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I just read the complaint, and I think they have a pretty good case. WotC certifies judges, terminates judges, provides uniforms, keeps a database of active judges, and imposes requirements to keep judge status, which is a lot of direct control for independent contractors, let alone non-employees. I did a research project about a year ago on the distinction between ICs and employees; judges remind me of some delivery drivers that defeated the shipping company's defense that they were ICs. That was a 9th circuit case, so it would bind the court in the judge suit unless WotC can somehow distinguish the cases. Waiters, strippers, and cab drivers receive direct pay from customers, but that doesn't mean they aren't employees of the business they work at.
The judges are asking for better conditions, wages, and overtime. Demand 11 is really interesting: "A mandatory injunction requiring Wizards to incorporate a separate non-profit recreational gaming entity that could lawfully utilize unpaid volunteers." No more direct WotC control.
Agreed. They're hitting on a lot of the case and common law factors in determining if someone is an employee. Wizards is in a pickle.
Private Mod Note
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
And it's not like they are not getting heavily rewarded anyways
How? With a promo that only holds value with stores that will take them (they often won't because the nature makes them hard to re-sell)? That's assuming they are high enough on the totem to get something like that. In the meantime, they work stupidly long hours, have to maintain discipline against a lot of people that are stressed from the long tournaments and luck of the draw and take it out on the staff, and often have to travel long distances at their own expense. All for a card that might make back a part of their expenses, if they choose to sell it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It doesn't say much more about the lawsuit than the press release, but it does state pretty much that it will not affect sanctioned and organized play while they settle the suit.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
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You can see wizards response in this article http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/wizards-responds-lawsuits-2016-04-20
Edit: You can see the lawsuit here https://www.scribd.com/doc/309867466/Shaw-Et-Al-v-Wizards-of-the-Coast-LLC
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I'd like to see the actual suit to see what the judges want.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
This seems like the perfect story for a Vice or Slate writer to tackle. I wanna read THAT article, rather than a glorified press release from one of the parties involved. WotC isn't in any way capable of objectively/honestly commenting an active lawsuit against it, regardless of that suit's merits (or lack thereof).
Personally, I've never been super comfortable with the way the Judge system operates at the regional/national/international level. It seems like WotC and (other) Tournament Organizers are just using a vast network of "volunteers" to do serious, skill-intensive, work with massive time/travel commitments and strange, limited, generally non-monetary compensation.
That said, I've only ever been an L1. I've never traveled for work or play beyond Vegas. And clearly many Judges seem to function reasonably well within the current system, with minimal complaints. I would like to find out more from the Judge's side and get opinions from people/groups who arent't directly involved, though. I wanna learn more, and I'm open to being surprised or changing my mind.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
It allways was more of a community service for your store at first, and thats what pretty much any lvl 1 judge is about.
Any reward for doing so is just nice extra.
However, any judge that does way more than that, especially in "professional" level events like a Grand Prix for multiple days and the Pro Tour has much different demands and expectations, as the time and work invested increases substantial.
But even then, you would expect any judge to do that as a hobby, for fun, not for rewards and especially not as a "job".
Judges are a community service, you can do tournaments without judges at all, but magic is big enough and theres enough judges around to make some quality standards.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
It is literally against United States law to volunteer for a for-profit company.
I am not too well versed in law, but I am under the assumption that TO's provide compensation for the judges and the TO's are responsible to organizing overtime pay and meal breaks. I assume the judges are signing on has Independent contractors with he TO's. I do not know for sure, But I assume many TO's are non-profit organizations, which allows judges to volunteer to be under contract and not be considered employees (cannot say for sure)
How will the plaintiffs prove that they are employee's of Wizards of the coast.
I know that judges have dress code policies and can be terminated from the judge program by WOTC so they have some validity to the argument.
The crux of this argument is how are the plaintiffs going to prove that they are employees working for Wizards of the Coast, that yes even though they are paid by TO's, it is under the direction of WOTC that the Judge Program exists.
Very interesting.
No matter what though, I think many can agree that judges for big events should have better work conditions (IE set time for meal breaks, makee sure they work only 8 hours a day (which is CA law, in other states they do not pay overtime for over 8 hours in a day, but only if employee works over 40 hrs in a week). However whose responsibility is it to organize that. Wizards of the Coast or the Tournament Organizer. Either way, TO's are going to be footing thee bill and most likely be WOTC scapegoat in the court
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
https://www.scribd.com/doc/309867466/Shaw-Et-Al-v-Wizards-of-the-Coast-LLC
The judges are asking for better conditions, wages, and overtime. Demand 11 is really interesting: "A mandatory injunction requiring Wizards to incorporate a separate non-profit recreational gaming entity that could lawfully utilize unpaid volunteers." No more direct WotC control.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
I think I actually lost IQ points with how ignorant that statement is. I have yet to meet a Judge that does not have an actual "real job," whether it be retail, office, service, or what-have-you. And what constitutes a "real job," anyway? The vast majority of Judges do this in their spare time, pouring untold hours into educating and preparing players and themselves for the betterment of the Magic community as a whole. Your statement makes it blatantly obvious that your only experience with the Judge program is from your encounters with Judges at tournaments, if even that, and not actual participation yourself.
As for the actual lawsuit, I can see arguments going either way, honestly. I don't see it ending well for either party, and this could very likely cause yet another sweeping change for the Judge Program and Organized Play as a whole based on how it turns out. Last year was tumultuous enough, we don't need it happening all over again.
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Yeah, how horrible those judges are, wanting things like the ability to go eat during a 12-hour entirely unpaid shift. They deserve to be a disposable resource that a multi-million dollar corporation can use and discard.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
This is no different than what WOTC does with the judge program & this allows TOs a certain level of security when hiring these certified judges. Would you claim that a TO is the employer of a food vendor that is at an event, or is that food vendor a independent contractor? Why would this be any different for judges?
Since this is a class-action lawsuit, the plaintiffs probably aren't risking much money on their own. The attorneys must feel there is a case (and money) that can be won.
They don't have to prove anything. They just need to convince 12 people that they are basically employees. And I think it is hard for someone outside of the whole Magic experience to understand, why you would work as volunteer for a for-profit organization.
Look at it this way: If you would be part of the jury and four guys would be telling you, that they and 1000 other people perform unpaid work for the benefit of JPMorgan Chase & Co. Would you assume they are real volunteers or would you think that someone really hates paying wages?
Depending on the jury Wizards will have a tough time explaining this.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
It should only take 1 event for you to gain the expectation that that will not happen - thus you simply cut your losses.
Grow up.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If every judge took this route, there would be no judges, no events, and basically no sanctioned game. Is that what you want?
I don't know, I just sort of hold the opinion that judges are people too, and more importantly deserve to be compensated for working as employees.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Agreed. They're hitting on a lot of the case and common law factors in determining if someone is an employee. Wizards is in a pickle.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
How? With a promo that only holds value with stores that will take them (they often won't because the nature makes them hard to re-sell)? That's assuming they are high enough on the totem to get something like that. In the meantime, they work stupidly long hours, have to maintain discipline against a lot of people that are stressed from the long tournaments and luck of the draw and take it out on the staff, and often have to travel long distances at their own expense. All for a card that might make back a part of their expenses, if they choose to sell it.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/message-magic-community-2016-04-20
It doesn't say much more about the lawsuit than the press release, but it does state pretty much that it will not affect sanctioned and organized play while they settle the suit.
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Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
That doesn't happen in Magic. Any extra compensation is at the shop's discretion. Which means a lot of judges who have to travel get screwed.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."