Well the subsequent draw is random (assuming no scries) so them binning a land drop that you need or a good spell doesn't affect your draw step at all. I don't see many scenarios where you actually get an extra card from this; it comes down to whether a 3/2 menace that can deal some free damage is good enough or not.
Wrong because now your deck has 1 less land available for draw. Whereas you could've drawn it, you skipped a draw. Now let's say you needed different colors and you binned a land of a color you needed, now you're in an even worst situation. This is a big gamble in limited.
Actually, this would only be true if you drew your WHOLE deck during the game, which generally doesn't happen. There are probably some lands in the bottom part of your deck that are NOT available for you to draw because the game won't get to the point when you'd get there. Milling a card will add one card from this "dead zone" into pool.
Basically: count how many cards are typically left in your library at the end of a Limited game. This is the amount that can be freely milled without affecting you in any way.
Perhaps the problem is you don't understand probability? The chance of drawing a land on your draw step is the same regardless of whether or not you have Sin Collector in play.
I just did the math and I am right. So please provide the math to prove your point. If you cannot, do not claim others don't understand stats or probabilities.
If you did the math why not present it? I have already presented a very VERY simple example that should prove the point. If you actually did math to prove how mill is effective at removing specific cards form a library then you have pretty much disproved something that has been considered a truth for very many years and so you should really show it to us.
Basically, the card you look for is exactly as likely to be in the second spot from the top as it is to be in the top spot. milling is more likely to dig you towards the card you need than it is to mill the card you need and these balance out to give a netgain of zero for milling cards.
In a set such as this where cars in the graveyard has additional functions it is positive to mill yourself if your deck makes use of delirium or similar things. If you had the opportunity to mill the top 10 cards of your library at your first upkeep you should most definitely take that chance if you have any interaction with your graveyard, and if you don't it doesn't matter unless you would run a real risk of drawing your entire library which isn't very likely in any deck that plays this dude.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote me for replies.
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
Perhaps the problem is you don't understand probability? The chance of drawing a land on your draw step is the same regardless of whether or not you have Sin Collector in play.
I just did the math and I am right. So please provide the math to prove your point. If you cannot, do not claim others don't understand stats or probabilities.
Then where's the proof for your math? You can't tell someone to post their math and then not post your own.
Tireless tracker opens up a U/G Clues deck with Tamiyo's Journal at the top of the curve. Search out your take extra turns cards and do damage by turn six or before. Seems plausible.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
The fact that people STILL, after so many years, don't understand that milling cannot possibly hurt you in a real statistical sense is baffling. It's like explaining to brand new players who have like 2 mind sculpts in their deck as their only mill cards. BUT THEY LOSE 7 CARDS! OP OP OP!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
Seems like Sin Prodder could be built around to mitigate a number of its weaknesses. It interacts favorably with Delve cards, either dealing significant damage or becoming cheap with the extra graveyard fuel. It interacts well with 3 CMC instants and sorceries with Goblin Dark Dwellers as your curve topper.
After looking at it for a while Sin Prodder may be a little better than I thought. 3/2 menace is certainly a pretty relevant body, and it puts an opponent in quite a quandary if you reveal a topdeck Dragonlord Atarka with mana to cast it. So in this sense Sin Prodder is kind of like a reverse Dark Confidant in that he's best in a deck with plenty of higher cost cards so you can punish opponents for making mistakes with his ability.
Perhaps the problem is you don't understand probability? The chance of drawing a land on your draw step is the same regardless of whether or not you have Sin Collector in play.
I just did the math and I am right. So please provide the math to prove your point. If you cannot, do not claim others don't understand stats or probabilities.
If you did the math why not present it? I have already presented a very VERY simple example that should prove the point. If you actually did math to prove how mill is effective at removing specific cards form a library then you have pretty much disproved something that has been considered a truth for very many years and so you should really show it to us.
Basically, the card you look for is exactly as likely to be in the second spot from the top as it is to be in the top spot. milling is more likely to dig you towards the card you need than it is to mill the card you need and these balance out to give a netgain of zero for milling cards.
In a set such as this where cars in the graveyard has additional functions it is positive to mill yourself if your deck makes use of delirium or similar things. If you had the opportunity to mill the top 10 cards of your library at your first upkeep you should most definitely take that chance if you have any interaction with your graveyard, and if you don't it doesn't matter unless you would run a real risk of drawing your entire library which isn't very likely in any deck that plays this dude.
Exactly, the thing with mill (or ingest for that matter) is you get a lot of emotions going when the opponent mills something you needed, but you remember those better than all those times dead draws were also milled from the top of your deck. Mill is never effective for getting rid of the cards they need unless you are getting rid of giant chunks of their library.
For example, in a burn/burn-heavy deck, both of these are pretty much just as likely (depending on exact spell counts):
top of library sample 1:
land
burn spell
land
top of library sample 2:
burn spell
land
burn spell
In the first example, you will be sad with Sin Prodder since you draw the lands on your normal draws and the burn spell was binned, only doing 1 (albeit free) damage rather than 3 or whatever. In the second example, you will be thrilled since you effectively improved your draw next turn my getting rid of a land (that you likely didn't need since you already have 3 lands). The truth will be somewhere in between on average - but anything in between is a bonus to what is ALREADY a 3/2 menace for 3.... In my quick testing thus far, he is proving to be quite effective... 1 turn of him being on the board is great, but 2-3 can be downright crazy...
Prodder is definatly better in R/X ramp or other Big Red decks, he's not meant to be for low curve aggro decks.
I disagree. He's a cheap evasive creature that nets you card advantage or direct damage. This is a pinnacle red aggro card. It's more fun to force an opponent to take huge damage or let you draw a big threat, but that damage is not as important when your strategy is to end the game with big finishers, where as it fits perfectly in a cheap aggressive deck that just wants to push damage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tournament Victories:
Indianapolis Regionals 2009 (Standard)
Worldwake Gameday (Limited)
For those pushing the "sin Prodder is bad" agenda due to the loss of land, look no further than the threads that relate to the "Ingest" mechanic from BFZ. I was HAMMERED for believing exiling a card from the top is a good thing, I've learned since then... It's the same thing, probability and all. Like I said above, you need a minimum of 3 mana to cast it, so you will have that on your following upkeep to play with. You will also have some sort of hand as well, that may already include that 4th land. If your top deck is a land, without Prodder you are draw is essentially dead, with Prodder, you traded that dead draw for whatever was below it, with a minimum of 3 mana. I'll take that every day. The only question is... Is 3-cmc fast enough. Its also not a build around card either, or even a bad top deck. It can carry equipment like a champ. Again... Is 3-cmc fast enough. Is there an echo...echo...cho...hoo...oooo.... "My back hurts"
I don't understand why it hitting lands for free is a problem unless you're playing against land destruction. If your entire deck is 3CMC or less (plausible for RDW) it's filtering out lands so you can dig towards actual spells.
Even a 3/2 Menace with "put all the lands from your library in your graveyard" would be worth considering and this is better since it sometimes just filters out a land, other times it can draw an actual spell or deal damage.
I'd like to point out how Sin Prodder is good in RDW, and then explain why it might not see standard play.
Point #1: It is a 3/2 Menace for 3 CMC. That's decent enough to distract the opponent late game for RDW(which is like turn 3-6 for RDW).
Point #2: If I hit a land as RDW on the upkeep, then I pitched a land before my draw step that I was going to draw instead of another card.
Point #3: If I reveal a 1 or 2 drop creature or creature burn, I most likely get another card in my hand for free without my draw step.
Point #4 and the biggest: The only cards that the opponent want to bin late game for RDW is direct player burn or another Sin Prodder himself. So, Firecraft Exquisite, Fiery Temper and Sin Prodder. All give you 3 direct damage either by the opponent binning them or Fiery Temper being given to you. Firecraft actually is worth more as a free 3 direct burn than paying 3 mana for 4 damage in the vast majority of cases.
That being said, Sin Prodder can be killed by every single removal in standard and he does nothing on the turn you cast him. He's very fragile for somewhat high CMC. Those people that state whether the removal costs more or Sin Prodder is the deciding factor, and plenty of 2 CMC or less removal gets rid of Sin Prodder already.
Oh boy here we go. As soon as I saw the card I knew the thread would devolve into arguing about sin prodder. Punisher cards have a way of doing that to players. To start with Punisher mechanics are always worse in practice than paper. Anything that gives your opponent the final choice will always be worse in practice than on paper. Clan_Iraq does a good job of explaining this. That being said letting your opponent mill you vs put the card in your hand is not the same as fatesealing you. If you are playing a redundant deck such as rdw then it doesn't really matter what card you flip. Anything that isn't a land will progress your game plan. On the other hand any deck that has a functional sideboard will have some card they want to keep and every deck that doesn't have complete redundancy will feel the pain of having removal or some other answer binned so this card isn't strictly upside. It will see occasional standard play but definitely not modern play (despite the sweet synergy with delve) because the body is nothing special so it dies to half of a lingering souls, every removal spell, etc with ought having an immediate impact which is generally a requirement for any card over 2cmc.
Ramp: the giant cost cards can get a opponment to low life very fast.
This is painful to read. The most important cards to get rid of against ramp is almost always the ramp not the payoff cards. Every single land and ramp spell will get binned since ramp dosn'the apply much pressure. The end result will just be that you cast a 3/2 menace in a ramp deck instead of advancing the core game plan.
With that out of the way the new evacuation is super sweet. The battle lands work well with it and standard doesn't have a wrath effect. Instant speed is very very good for these effects as it keeps your opponent from recasting or can burn a pump spell etc. This could even be modern playable in modern because of the sweet snapcaster wall of omens synergy and access to duals. It only slots into one deck but that's still pretty cool for an evacuation effect.
Landfall investigated is cool but it just missed the fetch lands. It could be fringe modern playable just because you can cast it and then hold priority to play a fetch land. Seems like a useful sideboard card potentially. It also seems downright busted in limited.
Sin Prodder is NOT meant for ramp decks!
In the early game he denies you lands, in the late game he denies you board presence. You would rather play Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger than shooting off 10 damage and than still having to care about another 10 life....
In aggro decks on the contrary: He mills away lands to draw relevant spells OR converts every other card into FREE burn spells, giving you either the ability to fight through the board or beginning a rather harsh countdown on your opponent's life. What more do you want?
The two other cards are cute and will see play in EDH. The green enchantment looks good in Shattergang Brothers!
On the other hand any deck that has a functional sideboard will have some card they want to keep and every deck that doesn't have complete redundancy will feel the pain of having removal or some other answer binned so this card isn't strictly upside.
And even more times they will feel the joy of getting rid of an irrelevant card and dig closer to those sideboard-cards. This evens out so your chance to find the sideboardcards will stay the same with or without the little demon.
Quote me for replies.
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
Green investigate cards fit perfectly into various EDH decks of mine, especially the enchantment for Mazirek. Sin Prodder is one of those cards that seems on the fence between amazing and pretty bad.
Its on a creature so it can be killed easier. The fact he has evasion is nice. I see this better in a red midrange strategy that wants to kill relatively fast. But I can see the argument for this in ramp also. It will see play I think
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Actually, this would only be true if you drew your WHOLE deck during the game, which generally doesn't happen. There are probably some lands in the bottom part of your deck that are NOT available for you to draw because the game won't get to the point when you'd get there. Milling a card will add one card from this "dead zone" into pool.
Basically: count how many cards are typically left in your library at the end of a Limited game. This is the amount that can be freely milled without affecting you in any way.
If you did the math why not present it? I have already presented a very VERY simple example that should prove the point. If you actually did math to prove how mill is effective at removing specific cards form a library then you have pretty much disproved something that has been considered a truth for very many years and so you should really show it to us.
Basically, the card you look for is exactly as likely to be in the second spot from the top as it is to be in the top spot. milling is more likely to dig you towards the card you need than it is to mill the card you need and these balance out to give a netgain of zero for milling cards.
In a set such as this where cars in the graveyard has additional functions it is positive to mill yourself if your deck makes use of delirium or similar things. If you had the opportunity to mill the top 10 cards of your library at your first upkeep you should most definitely take that chance if you have any interaction with your graveyard, and if you don't it doesn't matter unless you would run a real risk of drawing your entire library which isn't very likely in any deck that plays this dude.
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
Then where's the proof for your math? You can't tell someone to post their math and then not post your own.
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Feel free to tell me yours!
Ramp: the giant cost cards can get a opponment to low life very fast.
Aggro if you keep getting the cards you need they keep sacing life just to try to prevent you from winning.
Exactly, the thing with mill (or ingest for that matter) is you get a lot of emotions going when the opponent mills something you needed, but you remember those better than all those times dead draws were also milled from the top of your deck. Mill is never effective for getting rid of the cards they need unless you are getting rid of giant chunks of their library.
For example, in a burn/burn-heavy deck, both of these are pretty much just as likely (depending on exact spell counts):
top of library sample 1:
land
burn spell
land
top of library sample 2:
burn spell
land
burn spell
In the first example, you will be sad with Sin Prodder since you draw the lands on your normal draws and the burn spell was binned, only doing 1 (albeit free) damage rather than 3 or whatever. In the second example, you will be thrilled since you effectively improved your draw next turn my getting rid of a land (that you likely didn't need since you already have 3 lands). The truth will be somewhere in between on average - but anything in between is a bonus to what is ALREADY a 3/2 menace for 3.... In my quick testing thus far, he is proving to be quite effective... 1 turn of him being on the board is great, but 2-3 can be downright crazy...
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
I disagree. He's a cheap evasive creature that nets you card advantage or direct damage. This is a pinnacle red aggro card. It's more fun to force an opponent to take huge damage or let you draw a big threat, but that damage is not as important when your strategy is to end the game with big finishers, where as it fits perfectly in a cheap aggressive deck that just wants to push damage.
Indianapolis Regionals 2009 (Standard)
Worldwake Gameday (Limited)
See my alters here: http://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/jimmy2do/Cards/
Even a 3/2 Menace with "put all the lands from your library in your graveyard" would be worth considering and this is better since it sometimes just filters out a land, other times it can draw an actual spell or deal damage.
Point #1: It is a 3/2 Menace for 3 CMC. That's decent enough to distract the opponent late game for RDW(which is like turn 3-6 for RDW).
Point #2: If I hit a land as RDW on the upkeep, then I pitched a land before my draw step that I was going to draw instead of another card.
Point #3: If I reveal a 1 or 2 drop creature or creature burn, I most likely get another card in my hand for free without my draw step.
Point #4 and the biggest: The only cards that the opponent want to bin late game for RDW is direct player burn or another Sin Prodder himself. So, Firecraft Exquisite, Fiery Temper and Sin Prodder. All give you 3 direct damage either by the opponent binning them or Fiery Temper being given to you. Firecraft actually is worth more as a free 3 direct burn than paying 3 mana for 4 damage in the vast majority of cases.
That being said, Sin Prodder can be killed by every single removal in standard and he does nothing on the turn you cast him. He's very fragile for somewhat high CMC. Those people that state whether the removal costs more or Sin Prodder is the deciding factor, and plenty of 2 CMC or less removal gets rid of Sin Prodder already.
That Devil though is really good.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Hmm, interesting.. Looking back through them, the first mountain does as well sort of...
This is painful to read. The most important cards to get rid of against ramp is almost always the ramp not the payoff cards. Every single land and ramp spell will get binned since ramp dosn'the apply much pressure. The end result will just be that you cast a 3/2 menace in a ramp deck instead of advancing the core game plan.
With that out of the way the new evacuation is super sweet. The battle lands work well with it and standard doesn't have a wrath effect. Instant speed is very very good for these effects as it keeps your opponent from recasting or can burn a pump spell etc. This could even be modern playable in modern because of the sweet snapcaster wall of omens synergy and access to duals. It only slots into one deck but that's still pretty cool for an evacuation effect.
Landfall investigated is cool but it just missed the fetch lands. It could be fringe modern playable just because you can cast it and then hold priority to play a fetch land. Seems like a useful sideboard card potentially. It also seems downright busted in limited.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
In the early game he denies you lands, in the late game he denies you board presence. You would rather play Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger than shooting off 10 damage and than still having to care about another 10 life....
In aggro decks on the contrary: He mills away lands to draw relevant spells OR converts every other card into FREE burn spells, giving you either the ability to fight through the board or beginning a rather harsh countdown on your opponent's life. What more do you want?
The two other cards are cute and will see play in EDH. The green enchantment looks good in Shattergang Brothers!
I know punisher mechanics are like, 99% terrible, but Sin Prodder still seems sweet.
Not even close. Zur's weirding can basically shut down players from drawing cards. Thius guy doesn't effect your normal draw in any way whatsoever.
And even more times they will feel the joy of getting rid of an irrelevant card and dig closer to those sideboard-cards. This evens out so your chance to find the sideboardcards will stay the same with or without the little demon.
What? How does he deny you cards?
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
Its on a creature so it can be killed easier. The fact he has evasion is nice. I see this better in a red midrange strategy that wants to kill relatively fast. But I can see the argument for this in ramp also. It will see play I think