Am I the only one annoyed by this land giving colorless mana? Would much rather have it give black or generic mana.
Nothing taps for (or produces in any way) generic mana anymore. You can't even add generic mana to your mana pool. Mana is either colored or colorless only; costs use the word generic to mean either colored or colorless mana can be used to pay them.
Nothing ever did tap for generic mana. It's not a type of mana and never was.
Playability aside, I don't really get the flavor, a building becomes a demon? I mean sure it's cool that you actually have a demon card, but it would probably be more flavorful if you sacrificed the creatures to search for the demon or put a demon token, the card obviously becomes worse, but I just don't get the flavor of a building becoming a demon, are you animating the building by sacrificing people? I just don't get it.
Demon was contained in that building and came out.
I'm not sure if sacrificing mean that some cultists called upon him, or just dead guards of mausoleum.
So the flavor is you sacrifice people and you get a monster house? Pass... the card might be very good thou.
Playability aside, I don't really get the flavor, a building becomes a demon? I mean sure it's cool that you actually have a demon card, but it would probably be more flavorful if you sacrificed the creatures to search for the demon or put a demon token, the card obviously becomes worse, but I just don't get the flavor of a building becoming a demon, are you animating the building by sacrificing people? I just don't get it.
A giant, indestructible speedy demon burst forth from the abbey. Abbey is now a ruin.
Playability aside, I don't really get the flavor, a building becomes a demon? I mean sure it's cool that you actually have a demon card, but it would probably be more flavorful if you sacrificed the creatures to search for the demon or put a demon token, the card obviously becomes worse, but I just don't get the flavor of a building becoming a demon, are you animating the building by sacrificing people? I just don't get it.
A giant, indestructible speedy demon burst forth from the abbey. Abbey is now a ruin.
That would be... sacrifice this land, summon a demon (search for it or get a token), as a DFC, it doesn't make sense, even if the card is better from a mechanical perspective.
... so if you awaken this land first, wouldn't the Demon also be just a 0/0 with the +1/+1 counters from the Awaken effect and an Elemental as well as a Demon?
... so if you awaken this land first, wouldn't the Demon also be just a 0/0 with the +1/+1 counters from the Awaken effect and an Elemental as well as a Demon?
I don't think so, since other creatures who transform change their base power and toughness to whatever the other side is. It would keep the counters though.
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... so if you awaken this land first, wouldn't the Demon also be just a 0/0 with the +1/+1 counters from the Awaken effect and an Elemental as well as a Demon?
I don't think so, since other creatures who transform change their base power and toughness to whatever the other side is. It would keep the counters though.
When a card transforms, its default characteristics change, and then you re-apply the layers - and layer 7b would set the demon's P/T to 0/0 then add the counters on 7d. So - awakening this thing is a bad plan, no?
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
It's probably a question of the length of the name "occident" probably wouldn't fit.
Anyways, love the card!
1) It doesn't come into play tapped, so the only "price" for including it is reducing you colored sources. Which might not be if you run Eldrazi.
2) It generates creatures, without needing to be sacrificed itself.
3) It can be a finisher.
I can easily see it as land 26-27 of a control deck. Especially in BW control which runs Secure the Wastes and 2 Blighted Fen (to be replaced).
It's probably a question of the length of the name "occident" probably wouldn't fit.
Foreign language cards often shrink the font size to fit the card name in, so I doubt it's that. I appreciate that "Val d'Occident" doesn't trip off the tongue as easily but 'Westvale' is really a place name not a compound word here, so I don't see the need for them to translate it literally. "Abbaye de Westvale" would be just as appropriate and more accurate. Even "Abbaye du Val d'Ouest" sounds okay.
Ormengar's title is a little more understandable since the English is ambiguous - i.e. is he a Prince who is profane or a prince of people who are profane/ruler of a profane domain?
All that aside, I do love the card and need to fit it into at least one EDH deck.
I wonder why it has haste. I mean, if you've got 5 creatures by turn 6, you can plop this down and get your fat demon right away...just seems like situational overkill -- it's hard enough to get the requisite creatures, there aren't many situations where you can really surprise people with the haste.
That being said, this is a cool manland. It's not fast by any means, but the demon closes out the games really quickly, making it an interesting option for control decks that are interested in things like Secure the Wastes or token-making planeswalkers.
Edit: can we use Ormendahl (and Withengar) as commanders? If so, what would be their color identity?
You can't use it as commander, the front side is a land not a legendary creature.
Its color identity is black, because color identity checks both sides of a card.
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I'm mad at how careful they're being with the power level of the past couple of magic sets. This should generate two to three 1/1 Clerics or cost 1 and tap to make a 1/1.
Yeah uh I don't think you realize quite how broken that would be. The cheapest drawback-less land that puts tokens onto the battlefield costs 4 mana to activate (Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree and Springjack Pasture) and those that only cost two mana are either legendary (Kher Keep) or require a sacrifice beforehand (Kjeldoran Outpost) and the one at three mana requires you to exile a creature from your grave (Moorland Haunt). If you want multiple tokens for 5 mana, you probably going to have to sac the land. Here, for saccing the land (and the low price of 5 creatures) you get a 9/7 flying hasty lifelinking indestructible beatstick.
Repeatable token producers are strong. They require a careful balance. Something a lot of people would rather see broken, it seems.
Why do you consider Kher Keep costing 2 to make a token and Moorland Haunt costing 3? They both cost 2 mana and to tap themselves.
That said, I agree with every point you made.
Mostly because I'm a derp and somehow forgot Moorland Haunt costs only 2.
Moorland Haunt also requires a creature in the graveyard.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
Indestructible is the main selling point here, although having to have 5 mana + this land + five creatures
And thank goodness for French preview, it gives me an excuse to learn French The name seems to be Abbey At The Eastern Valley or something. And story-wise, he replaces Grissebrand.
Yep. I'd also translate his title as Prince of the Profane.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
If I've made it far enough to actually use this, something went horribly wrong and I'm probably going to die soon. Primary issue is that the land density in the deck means B/W tokens usually only has about 4-6 lands at most before it's game, and unless the player is playing someone using Ghostly Prison or a similar card, there isn't any benefit to sacrificing tokens to play a big beefy flier over a bunch of 3/2 or 4/3 flying spirits.
How about lifelink? 9/7 with lifelink can turn the game around and make sure you have time to cast more tokens if there is a need. The only issue is the cost of the transformation, which without any mana accel is not that easy to achieve. Having 5 tokens is quite easy. That's why, as I posted before, I'd add only 1 of this card into the deck, because of how situational it is. However I'd still like to try it out, just for the sake of the situation when the game is stalling. With 1 of this you worsen your mana fixing bu a little bit, so I think there is a chance for this land in BW tokens.
Oh I still think the card is good for a token based deck, just that this is something I'd put into my BW tokens commander deck more than my modern one. Modern turns into a race most of the time so there isn't a lot of opportunities to set up something like this guy.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Oops, I see someone beat me to it a few posts back, sorry.
Doesn't we are suppose to have a card that put a card from our hand to the battlefield transformed ?
We don't have one, I don't think we're likely to get one for a few reasons, but if we were going to get one, it would likely say "Put a creature into play, then transform it" or something along those lines to avoid situations involving this guy, Persistent Nightmare, the Flip-Walkers, and further problems down the line.
Can you sac scions to this and still get the mana?
No, in both cases sacrificing a creature is a cost, and you can only sacrifice a given creature once. You may sacrifice a scion to this effect, or to generate mana, but not both.
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If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
Nothing taps for (or produces in any way) generic mana anymore. You can't even add generic mana to your mana pool. Mana is either colored or colorless only; costs use the word generic to mean either colored or colorless mana can be used to pay them.
Nothing ever produced generic mana, and you could never add it to your pool. It was always one of the six types of mana, WUBRG and Colorless.
Incidently this discussion is a perfect reason as to why Colorless was changed to C from X during OGW.
Playability aside, I don't really get the flavor, a building becomes a demon? I mean sure it's cool that you actually have a demon card, but it would probably be more flavorful if you sacrificed the creatures to search for the demon or put a demon token, the card obviously becomes worse, but I just don't get the flavor of a building becoming a demon, are you animating the building by sacrificing people? I just don't get it.
Demon was contained in that building and came out.
I'm not sure if sacrificing mean that some cultists called upon him, or just dead guards of mausoleum.
So the flavor is you sacrifice people and you get a monster house? Pass... the card might be very good thou.
The flavor text reads something like: "After the disappearance of Griselbrand, the Skirsdag cultists impatiently awaited another demon worthy of their devotion. Ormendahl had not let them wait long." I don't think it's too difficult to imagine the flavor of the card--it is called something like Abbey of the Eastern Vale. The Skirsdag Cult now occupies the High City of Thraben. (The Skirsdag are a demon-worshiping cult that is no stranger to blood-sacrifices.) On the eastern side of Thraben is none other than the Cathedral of Avacyn. This structure "Abbey of the Eastern Vale" *is* the Cathedral of Avacyn, or is a side-building. The cultists called upon a new demon to replace Griselbrand through a blood sacrifice. Enter Ormendahl, who appeared. It is not a "monster house"--the demon violently appeared in front of the abbey, where it was summoned. Very cool, flavorful card.
Nothing ever did tap for generic mana. It's not a type of mana and never was.
A giant, indestructible speedy demon burst forth from the abbey. Abbey is now a ruin.
I don't think so, since other creatures who transform change their base power and toughness to whatever the other side is. It would keep the counters though.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
When a card transforms, its default characteristics change, and then you re-apply the layers - and layer 7b would set the demon's P/T to 0/0 then add the counters on 7d. So - awakening this thing is a bad plan, no?
Anyways, love the card!
1) It doesn't come into play tapped, so the only "price" for including it is reducing you colored sources. Which might not be if you run Eldrazi.
2) It generates creatures, without needing to be sacrificed itself.
3) It can be a finisher.
I can easily see it as land 26-27 of a control deck. Especially in BW control which runs Secure the Wastes and 2 Blighted Fen (to be replaced).
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Foreign language cards often shrink the font size to fit the card name in, so I doubt it's that. I appreciate that "Val d'Occident" doesn't trip off the tongue as easily but 'Westvale' is really a place name not a compound word here, so I don't see the need for them to translate it literally. "Abbaye de Westvale" would be just as appropriate and more accurate. Even "Abbaye du Val d'Ouest" sounds okay.
Ormengar's title is a little more understandable since the English is ambiguous - i.e. is he a Prince who is profane or a prince of people who are profane/ruler of a profane domain?
All that aside, I do love the card and need to fit it into at least one EDH deck.
That being said, this is a cool manland. It's not fast by any means, but the demon closes out the games really quickly, making it an interesting option for control decks that are interested in things like Secure the Wastes or token-making planeswalkers.
You can't use it as commander, the front side is a land not a legendary creature.
Its color identity is black, because color identity checks both sides of a card.
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Doesn't we are suppose to have a card that put a card from our hand to the battlefield transformed ?
Moorland Haunt also requires a creature in the graveyard.
Yep. I'd also translate his title as Prince of the Profane.
On phasing:
Oh I still think the card is good for a token based deck, just that this is something I'd put into my BW tokens commander deck more than my modern one. Modern turns into a race most of the time so there isn't a lot of opportunities to set up something like this guy.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
We don't have one, I don't think we're likely to get one for a few reasons, but if we were going to get one, it would likely say "Put a creature into play, then transform it" or something along those lines to avoid situations involving this guy, Persistent Nightmare, the Flip-Walkers, and further problems down the line.
No, in both cases sacrificing a creature is a cost, and you can only sacrifice a given creature once. You may sacrifice a scion to this effect, or to generate mana, but not both.
If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
Nothing ever produced generic mana, and you could never add it to your pool. It was always one of the six types of mana, WUBRG and Colorless.
Incidently this discussion is a perfect reason as to why Colorless was changed to C from X during OGW.
It's probably better than Demon of Death's Gate...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4557651&postcount=1
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The flavor text reads something like: "After the disappearance of Griselbrand, the Skirsdag cultists impatiently awaited another demon worthy of their devotion. Ormendahl had not let them wait long." I don't think it's too difficult to imagine the flavor of the card--it is called something like Abbey of the Eastern Vale. The Skirsdag Cult now occupies the High City of Thraben. (The Skirsdag are a demon-worshiping cult that is no stranger to blood-sacrifices.) On the eastern side of Thraben is none other than the Cathedral of Avacyn. This structure "Abbey of the Eastern Vale" *is* the Cathedral of Avacyn, or is a side-building. The cultists called upon a new demon to replace Griselbrand through a blood sacrifice. Enter Ormendahl, who appeared. It is not a "monster house"--the demon violently appeared in front of the abbey, where it was summoned. Very cool, flavorful card.