No reason at all that this couldn't hit lands too. I mean, there are 0 other cards that can do that in standard for 3 mana, so it's not like you can build a dedicated land desctruction deck. It would just give the card more versatility, especially in older formats. And no, this is not in any way better than vindicate for commander. You absolutely need answers to lands in that format or you get overrun by cabal coffers, geia's cradle, etc.
One sided dedicated land destruction spells have been three mana and sorcery speed since at least 8th edition, and you`re arguing that it should be 3 mana instant speed, exile, stapled onto a card that also exiles any other permanent, and in colors that have not been associated with land destruction for about 15 years. Are you even serious?
I agree that having a second Vindicate would be good for EDH, but that`s it.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Dude. This is a really, really strong spell that I didn't think they would even print in contemporary sets. It amazes me that people are complaining about the fact that this can't hit lands when it already hits literally everything else for 3 mana and the ability to stop your opponent from playing Magic should never be viable.
^This.
I really do not see why people want land destruction to be good. Especially at instant speed.
Mostly because hitting nonland only makes it weak against manlands that are already a problem for control decks to deal with. It's still good, it just feels like it is missing something. What if it was "any permanent that is a nonbasic land"?
No reason at all that this couldn't hit lands too. I mean, there are 0 other cards that can do that in standard for 3 mana, so it's not like you can build a dedicated land desctruction deck. It would just give the card more versatility, especially in older formats. And no, this is not in any way better than vindicate for commander. You absolutely need answers to lands in that format or you get overrun by cabal coffers, geia's cradle, etc.
One sided dedicated land destruction spells have been three mana and sorcery speed since at least 8th edition, and you`re arguing that it should be 3 mana instant speed, exile, stapled onto a card that also exiles any other permanent, and in colors that have not been associated with land destruction for about 15 years. Are you even serious?
I agree that having a second Vindicate would be good for EDH, but that`s it.
Yes, I'm serious. They print broken cards in blue almost every set and argue 'oh, it's only a one of so we can let it slide' so why not in BW too? Just look at the brokenness of delver of secrets, snapcaster mage and the new Jace. Why does blue get away with this nonsense but no other colour can?
Making this removal better would not hurt standard at all. I mean, this thing is not a win condition on it's own. It would just allow more hosing of any problematic lands in standard.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Modern Esper Draw-Go doesn't really want too much of this card. The deck already runs out of life way too fast in the current meta.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
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Dude. This is a really, really strong spell that I didn't think they would even print in contemporary sets. It amazes me that people are complaining about the fact that this can't hit lands when it already hits literally everything else for 3 mana and the ability to stop your opponent from playing Magic should never be viable.
^This.
I really do not see why people want land destruction to be good. Especially at instant speed.
I'll agree that an overwhelming amount of efficient land destruction is bad for any format.
but having a couple decent spells that can actually hit lands is nice.
I mean, the amount of actual "playing magic" vs an opponent with no lands and against an opponent with a 4 Cloudposts in the battlefield and a Emrakul in hand is almost the same.... zero.
is never going to lead into any fun in games... as decks like this warrant that SOMEONE is getting frustrated... either the player using it if it doesn't completely negates the lands or the other guy if the first deck actually works.
but destroying a Cloudpost or Urza's Tower from time to time may change the pace of a lost game into a way better one.
the "this is unfun" mob needs to stop bashing discard, counterspells and land destruction, those are all very nice aspects of this game, unless there's too many of it in the same format at the same time.
-For history maybe Sorin-Nahiri become likely Dad-Mom of the plane, This can be good to removed both for history and give more relevance to low powered ORI-Walkers.
Given this, I think the chance for Sorin and Nahiri being on good terms
is *extremely* low.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
And I guess it is now confirmed, the Cycle of MTG Angel Legend torture continues. I cant wait what theyre gonna do to the next featured Angel legend in the story... Hmmn, trickling torture?
I dunno if Sorin can still recreate an Avacyn, so I vote for Sigarda (if she is still untainted) to be new Angelic leadah!
Modern Esper Draw-Go doesn't really want too much of this card. The deck already runs out of life way too fast in the current meta.
Not quite true. We've already discussed it in the forum, and agreed unanimously that it's easily a 1-2 of in the deck, and a sideboard card too most likely. Also, Sphinx's Revelation don't care about life loss. =D
The only place the life loss hurts is against red aggro/burn decks. Otherwise, this card is pure gold in the Draw-Go shell.
A cheaper utter end is certainly cool, but paying three life is not nothing as some would like to see it. It's a fair price for drawing cards, since painful truths sees play, but I always enjoyed how clean utter end was with no drawbacks. Paying life for removal hurts terribly against aggro or burn (if you're thinking about modern), so I'd be cautious describing this as a staple in any other format than edh maybe. Your first unmaking costs 3, second copy made you lose 6 life already. Unless you run an incredible lifegain engine, that WILL be a problem. Sadly, seeker and soulfire will be gone when innistrad rolls in. Artwork is tragic, yet beautiful, that's the only thing I dare to say at this point. And the flavortext is, let's see...
...to end her forever. end her. forever.
Uhm... right, that happened. It's not that I liked Avacyn or anything, ahaha. huh, what a beautiful, clear, blue sky we have outside today, maybe I should take a walk.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
3 life or 20 life, it's insignificant, this card will still be good even if it said 20 life. jk.
But i do like the card for edh, only format i play. Another utter end is sweet, much better than vindicate in edh.
Well given how much life everyone was losing with fetches (most decks were losing 3-6 lands from fetches) we got some extra life to spare this format to use this.
At first I said, "Three life? Eh, pass outside of EDH."
Then I read it again. That typeline, it says Instant. Not sorcery. Instant...
You have my attention, sirs and madams
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Great removal, but i wonder why land destruction at three mana seems to be asking too much.
Everyone seems to want land destruction back. I used to too, but I think land destruction is best relegated to side effects that come later in the game that enable you to take out effects that your opponent is abusing or to mess with their color base. Below three in large enough numbers it just serves to keep on player ahead in a way that has very little comeback potential and on this card in particular it means it always has a target. Land destruction just isn't fun to play or to play against.
anybody that wants cheap land destruction never played against cheap land destruction formats or is the kind of person that likes to crush players
Ugh.
Look, Land Destruction is essentially the "boogie monster" of Magic. As a deck archetype, it hasn't been truly viable since the very early days of the game when nobody really understood how to play well. Reprinting 3cmc land destruction isn't going to bring back the long-gone era of decks that try to win by wiping the opponent's board of lands. Legacy has access to every land destruction card in the game (aside from Strip Mine). Guess how many appear in actual competitive decks. It's pretty much only Wasteland. The game's famous "best removal spell ever" Vindicate? Look at any random list of top 16/32 from a major Legacy event and count the number of Vindicates that appear. There might be one or two somewhere, but it's pretty clear it's not dominating the format at all, and most competitive Legacy decks with access to BW play exactly 0 Vindicates, despite that this is a format with format-defining lands like Mishra's Workshop, Gaea's Cradle and Tabernacle. I like the card, but it has to be the most overrated card in the history of the game (in terms of how highly-regarded it is compared with how much play it actually sees).
In Modern, players have access to Stone Rain, but it's basically never played, even though that format also has lands that can make the difference between winning and losing.
If anything, Standard is a format that could really use a 3 cmc land-destruction spell, with the absurdity of chaining multiple Sanctum of Ugin for Ulamog after Ulamog. Even then, I doubt Stone Rain would see more than sideboard play.
Basically, the only place you're really going have an issue is with very casual players who are otherwise playing non-competitive decks anyway.
anybody that wants cheap land destruction never played against cheap land destruction formats or is the kind of person that likes to crush players
Ugh.
Look, Land Destruction is essentially the "boogie monster" of Magic. As a deck archetype, it hasn't been truly viable since the very early days of the game when nobody really understood how to play well. Reprinting 3cmc land destruction isn't going to bring back the long-gone era of decks that try to win by wiping the opponent's board of lands. Legacy has access to every land destruction card in the game (aside from Strip Mine). Guess how many appear in actual competitive decks. It's pretty much only Wasteland. The game's famous "best removal spell ever" Vindicate? Look at any random list of top 16/32 from a major Legacy event and count the number of Vindicates that appear. There might be one or two somewhere, but it's pretty clear it's not dominating the format at all, and most competitive Legacy decks with access to BW play exactly 0 Vindicates, despite that this is a format with format-defining lands like Mishra's Workshop, Gaea's Cradle and Tabernacle. I like the card, but it has to be the most overrated card in the history of the game (in terms of how highly-regarded it is compared with how much play it actually sees).
In Modern, players have access to Stone Rain, but it's basically never played, even though that format also has lands that can make the difference between winning and losing.
If anything, Standard is a format that could really use a 3 cmc land-destruction spell, with the absurdity of chaining multiple Sanctum of Ugin for Ulamog after Ulamog. Even then, I doubt Stone Rain would see more than sideboard play.
Basically, the only place you're really going have an issue is with very casual players who are otherwise playing non-competitive decks anyway.
It's the boogie man because it is
A. Toxic to game health
B. Feels bad to play against.(like Annihilator levels feels bad)
C. Is super binary.
D. Dissuades newer players.
That's why they print very specific ones, or are extremely overcosted. R&D is never bringing it back in a major way.
I agree that having a second Vindicate would be good for EDH, but that`s it.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
It could have been:
Anguished Unmaking 1WB
Instant-R
Choose one:
They would have lost all that flavor text though~
Yes, I'm serious. They print broken cards in blue almost every set and argue 'oh, it's only a one of so we can let it slide' so why not in BW too? Just look at the brokenness of delver of secrets, snapcaster mage and the new Jace. Why does blue get away with this nonsense but no other colour can?
Making this removal better would not hurt standard at all. I mean, this thing is not a win condition on it's own. It would just allow more hosing of any problematic lands in standard.
It's not completely out of the question,
but if she is saved, she will almost certainly be "neutered".
One poster here hit the nail on the head when they pointed out that Avacyn is a big thorn in the side of making stories for a "horror" plane.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
but I'm really sad about Avacyn.
lol
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I'll agree that an overwhelming amount of efficient land destruction is bad for any format.
but having a couple decent spells that can actually hit lands is nice.
I mean, the amount of actual "playing magic" vs an opponent with no lands and against an opponent with a 4 Cloudposts in the battlefield and a Emrakul in hand is almost the same.... zero.
allowing players to run T1: Badlands, Dark Ritual into Rain of Tears
T2: Swamp, Sinkhole
T3: Strip Mine, Boom // Bust (Boom side) targeting a land and your strip mine, which you sacrifice in response targeting another land
is never going to lead into any fun in games... as decks like this warrant that SOMEONE is getting frustrated... either the player using it if it doesn't completely negates the lands or the other guy if the first deck actually works.
but destroying a Cloudpost or Urza's Tower from time to time may change the pace of a lost game into a way better one.
the "this is unfun" mob needs to stop bashing discard, counterspells and land destruction, those are all very nice aspects of this game, unless there's too many of it in the same format at the same time.
Given this, I think the chance for Sorin and Nahiri being on good terms
is *extremely* low.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I dunno if Sorin can still recreate an Avacyn, so I vote for Sigarda (if she is still untainted) to be new Angelic leadah!
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Not quite true. We've already discussed it in the forum, and agreed unanimously that it's easily a 1-2 of in the deck, and a sideboard card too most likely. Also, Sphinx's Revelation don't care about life loss. =D
The only place the life loss hurts is against red aggro/burn decks. Otherwise, this card is pure gold in the Draw-Go shell.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I KNOW!!!
Modern Affinity
Soul Sisters
Izzet Delver of Secrets
Mono Green Stompy
Modern Red Burn
Gruul Dragons
Mono Black Aggro
EDH Decks:
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Tiny Leaders:
Vorel of the Hull Clade
...to end her forever. end her. forever.
Uhm... right, that happened. It's not that I liked Avacyn or anything, ahaha. huh, what a beautiful, clear, blue sky we have outside today, maybe I should take a walk.
But i do like the card for edh, only format i play. Another utter end is sweet, much better than vindicate in edh.
Then I read it again. That typeline, it says Instant. Not sorcery. Instant...
You have my attention, sirs and madams
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Everyone seems to want land destruction back. I used to too, but I think land destruction is best relegated to side effects that come later in the game that enable you to take out effects that your opponent is abusing or to mess with their color base. Below three in large enough numbers it just serves to keep on player ahead in a way that has very little comeback potential and on this card in particular it means it always has a target. Land destruction just isn't fun to play or to play against.
Ugh.
Look, Land Destruction is essentially the "boogie monster" of Magic. As a deck archetype, it hasn't been truly viable since the very early days of the game when nobody really understood how to play well. Reprinting 3cmc land destruction isn't going to bring back the long-gone era of decks that try to win by wiping the opponent's board of lands. Legacy has access to every land destruction card in the game (aside from Strip Mine). Guess how many appear in actual competitive decks. It's pretty much only Wasteland. The game's famous "best removal spell ever" Vindicate? Look at any random list of top 16/32 from a major Legacy event and count the number of Vindicates that appear. There might be one or two somewhere, but it's pretty clear it's not dominating the format at all, and most competitive Legacy decks with access to BW play exactly 0 Vindicates, despite that this is a format with format-defining lands like Mishra's Workshop, Gaea's Cradle and Tabernacle. I like the card, but it has to be the most overrated card in the history of the game (in terms of how highly-regarded it is compared with how much play it actually sees).
In Modern, players have access to Stone Rain, but it's basically never played, even though that format also has lands that can make the difference between winning and losing.
If anything, Standard is a format that could really use a 3 cmc land-destruction spell, with the absurdity of chaining multiple Sanctum of Ugin for Ulamog after Ulamog. Even then, I doubt Stone Rain would see more than sideboard play.
Basically, the only place you're really going have an issue is with very casual players who are otherwise playing non-competitive decks anyway.
A. Toxic to game health
B. Feels bad to play against.(like Annihilator levels feels bad)
C. Is super binary.
D. Dissuades newer players.
That's why they print very specific ones, or are extremely overcosted. R&D is never bringing it back in a major way.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios