Dude. This is a really, really strong spell that I didn't think they would even print in contemporary sets. It amazes me that people are complaining about the fact that this can't hit lands when it already hits literally everything else for 3 mana and the ability to stop your opponent from playing Magic should never be viable.
^This.
I really do not see why people want land destruction to be good. Especially at instant speed.
I'll agree that an overwhelming amount of efficient land destruction is bad for any format.
but having a couple decent spells that can actually hit lands is nice.
I mean, the amount of actual "playing magic" vs an opponent with no lands and against an opponent with a 4 Cloudposts in the battlefield and a Emrakul in hand is almost the same.... zero.
is never going to lead into any fun in games... as decks like this warrant that SOMEONE is getting frustrated... either the player using it if it doesn't completely negates the lands or the other guy if the first deck actually works.
but destroying a Cloudpost or Urza's Tower from time to time may change the pace of a lost game into a way better one.
the "this is unfun" mob needs to stop bashing discard, counterspells and land destruction, those are all very nice aspects of this game, unless there's too many of it in the same format at the same time.
I was referring to generic/no draw-back land destruction.
It's one thing to counter a particular strategy. It's another animal entirely when you out right deny your opponent from doing anything, which is what I am against.
Great removal, but i wonder why land destruction at three mana seems to be asking too much.
Because "T1 mana dork, T2 land destruction, T3 land destruction" wins games.
Wizards took the T1 mana dorks out of Standard. I think turn 3 LD is acceptable to bring back into Standard if there is no possibility it can be accelerated out on turn 2.
We also saw what happen to Ulcerate, although this is catch-all card. This card will be the Abrupt Decay of Standard. I think it's a 2 and 2 with Declaration in Stone.
Great removal, but i wonder why land destruction at three mana seems to be asking too much.
Because "T1 mana dork, T2 land destruction, T3 land destruction" wins games.
Wizards took the T1 mana dorks out of Standard. I think turn 3 LD is acceptable to bring back into Standard if there is no possibility it can be accelerated out on turn 2.
On the other hand, putting three cost LD in the format limits their future options until it rotates, since they've said they could choose to bring 1 drop acceleration back if they wanted it in the format again. A vindicate effect would mean they're locked out of putting one drop accelerators in sets until it rotates again.
Utterly baffling that people would even question the playability of this card as it is one of the stronger cards standard has seen since Treasure Cruise. Expect to see a ton of the best removal spell in standard for a while, I mean we don't even have catch all creature removal at 3 mana at the moment and you dare to question the playability of this card?
This card is also very worrying because it appears SOI will be several folds better than BFZ meaning all the decks will center around SOI's powerful cards and the prices will reflect that. I expect this card to stay over $10 the life of standard and wouldn't be shocked if it climbed to $20.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
Would have been really cool if it were "Exile target nonland permanent and all other permanents with the same name. You lose 2 life for each permanent exiled this way."
Sigh.
LD should be good (not necessarily instant)
Counter spells should be good
Discard should be good
Removal should be good (at lower rarities)
those things balance each other out....instead we get Creatures: the gathering with situational (bad) removal at lower rarities and decent removal at rare and mythic.
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This card is NOT very good. Utter End is about twice as good. Its use is doubly narrowed; play black-white aggressive, and maybe even ALSO have life gain. Otherwise, unusable. Who cares if you can go 1-for-1 on something that really HAD to leave the board? There is this thing called win or lose the game, and it really MAY NOT help you win the game, and that's the ULTIMATE litmus test of 'include this'. You had four slots covered? You may have been better off with eight and not eating crow. It plays against deck consistency usability; could play one. Use two of them, just double bolting yourself? One is the use of this card, supplementing other things. @Land destruction... this would have been all right, I think. It's ONE such card. I would have gone for it. Weak card, otherwise. Would have been like... HMM! Reason TO think of, not totally game breaking. Not teamed up. Agreed on, well, counter this, counter that, but not that? Blubbery, complaining a bit TOO much. Sinkhole was unfair. Wasteland was unfair. Stone Rain x4 is not unfair. It would be an environmental concern when you look at, oh, here's the new one. But that's why... ahh, here's just, Stone Rain. or Pillage. Or Rain of Tears or Winter's Grasp.
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"Warning: Um, warning. This is going to be a game state violation. And a taking extra turns and drawing extra cards violation, pretty much, a whole bunch of violations. Look at me, I'm the DCI."
Hey should reprint ghost quarter if hat is the effect you are looking for. No-drawback land removal is not good for the game at low CC. If you really only cared about troublesome lands and didn't actually want to incorporate LD as a part of your strategy, then crumble should be adequate. Also, any lower cmc option should be like ghost quarter in that it lets you stay even on mana, but gets rid of the land that is a problem.
Alternatively, LD seems like a worse option if you just want to manage non basic lands that do things; a pithing needle effect would be much better suited than ld as it can deal with any future copies as well. Long story short, there are really no good reasons for no-drawback LD, but many good reasons for some effect that can punish relying heavily on non basics. Honestly, one of those effects was sorely needed in this recent standard (from an outsiders perspective cause I don't play standard, just watch) to avoid the 4 color nonsense decks. This could have been a calculated move by wizards, tho, to have a standard that just goes wild. After all, even though there are multiple 4 color decks, they are all pretty different in their game plan....
Edit: This thing is absolutely going to be played in modern in certain decks. Certainly not a staple, but neither is maelstrom pulse (as far as staples go), but it is a key factor in BGx ability to answer everything. Guaranteed that Esper and mardu will be playing 1/1 split main/board. Can't see it being 2/0 or 2/1 unless the meta highly calls for it, but these two decks in particular need a flexible main board answer or they get rolled by certain strategies (particularly planeswalkers for Esper). There is no way this will not become a part of a few decks. I called the same for painful truths and while this will make less of a splash, it will undoubtedly become part of the format. remember, the reason ulcerated is not played is not because of the three life (Its absolutely worth the three life), but because dismember is just superior (and effectively colorless). I literally cannot imagine any deck that would play ulcerate, that wouldn't just replace it with dismember
This card is NOT very good. Utter End is about twice as good. Its use is doubly narrowed; play black-white aggressive, and maybe even ALSO have life gain. Otherwise, unusable. Who cares if you can go 1-for-1 on something that really HAD to leave the board? There is this thing called win or lose the game, and it really MAY NOT help you win the game, and that's the ULTIMATE litmus test of 'include this'. You had four slots covered? You may have been better off with eight and not eating crow. It plays against deck consistency usability; could play one. Use two of them, just double bolting yourself? One is the use of this card, supplementing other things. @Land destruction... this would have been all right, I think. It's ONE such card. I would have gone for it. Weak card, otherwise. Would have been like... HMM! Reason TO think of, not totally game breaking. Not teamed up. Agreed on, well, counter this, counter that, but not that? Blubbery, complaining a bit TOO much. Sinkhole was unfair. Wasteland was unfair. Stone Rain x4 is not unfair. It would be an environmental concern when you look at, oh, here's the new one. But that's why... ahh, here's just, Stone Rain. or Pillage. Or Rain of Tears or Winter's Grasp.
Utter end is not "about twice as good", and this new card is probably better.
1) Black and white have the best and easiest access to lifegaining abilities, so 3 damage while relevant, isn't too steep.
2) If you're playing against aggro you just side this out for surge of righteousness or timely reinforcements or whatever. It's not like a 4cmc 1-for-1 removal spell like utter end is gonna do you wonders against fast decks.
3) Being 1cmc cheaper overall helps you to play other spells both proactively and reactively. Compared to utter end it speeds you up a turn.
On the other hand, putting three cost LD in the format limits their future options until it rotates, since they've said they could choose to bring 1 drop acceleration back if they wanted it in the format again. A vindicate effect would mean they're locked out of putting one drop accelerators in sets until it rotates again.
1 mana dorks are never coming back. Wizards says it's just a temporary change but in reality they won't bring them back because there will never be a future time in Standard when they would be "safe" to print. Over the years Wizards has permanently removed a lot of stuff in Standard that was originally spinned as being temporarily removed. Mana Leak is a good example of this. Heck we can't even get Searing Spear or Lightning Strike anymore because like 1 mana dorks those are also "too good".
You know, Thoughtseize was a standard staple, no one cared it cost 2 life. Hitting everything relevant at instant speed is good for modern let alone standard. IT HITS PLANESWALKERS AT INSTANT SPEED. I can't believe we're having the same disproven arguments over and over, losing a bit of life is nothing compared to an effectively costed instant that always hits the threat it needs to. I bet people think Ruinous Path is better than this card.
This is why I think the vast majority of players are bad at evaluating cards.
So...Jace and Dark Dwellers got a new friend.
Also, Aggro deck probably get a boon from people playing and flashing back this card.
It will probably be 3-4 of in decks that run it and will be the first card cut in the aggro match up.
Maybe time to find some good sources of lifegain if Kalitas does not cut the mustard.
Also, is the Promo version from the Buy-a-box or is it for Gamesday Top 8?
Nevermind, it is the top 8 promo.
This card is good but lightning bolting yourself is a serious drawback. Maybe not so much in Standard, but I don't know if t his will see Modern play considering Abrupt Decay exists and isn't counter able and doesn't bolt you. I kind of wish this had just been "Destroy target nonland permanent." Would have made a great vindicate.
You know, Thoughtseize was a standard staple, no one cared it cost 2 life. Hitting everything relevant at instant speed is good for modern let alone standard. IT HITS PLANESWALKERS AT INSTANT SPEED.
Thoughtsieze also is a turn 1 play and it doesn't let them cast their card (relevant for ETB effects). This lightning bolts you in a format where you're already taking damage from your fetches and shocks AND is filled with faster linear aggro decks. I don't know if this is where you want to be right now.
I understand there are a ton of people playing magic that don't play competitively....But it just blows my mind that so many people would go out of their way to sign up for a magic forum, login, and come here to say anything negative about this card at all. You would think if you care enough to come to this site you should obviously be able to spot this as one of, if not the best card, during its time in standard.
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I was referring to generic/no draw-back land destruction.
It's one thing to counter a particular strategy. It's another animal entirely when you out right deny your opponent from doing anything, which is what I am against.
Special thanks to XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the awesome avy!
Wizards took the T1 mana dorks out of Standard. I think turn 3 LD is acceptable to bring back into Standard if there is no possibility it can be accelerated out on turn 2.
I really didn't think they'd go for something on this level.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I'm Bolted. (sorry)
Awesome card is awesome. I didn't think they did removal this powerful any more. Thank you, R&D!!
I just wish the flavortext wasn't so horrible.
3 life is definitely significant.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Avacyn did nothing wrong T_T
Stop killing white cards R&D!
All this time, I still wished that Sorin was blocking a spell/curse on Avacyn in the art (before this card was spoiled)
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
This card is also very worrying because it appears SOI will be several folds better than BFZ meaning all the decks will center around SOI's powerful cards and the prices will reflect that. I expect this card to stay over $10 the life of standard and wouldn't be shocked if it climbed to $20.
LD should be good (not necessarily instant)
Counter spells should be good
Discard should be good
Removal should be good (at lower rarities)
those things balance each other out....instead we get Creatures: the gathering with situational (bad) removal at lower rarities and decent removal at rare and mythic.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
I guess it depends how much the set sells, but $20 at rare would be bizarre. Siege Rhino was under $5 when it was all over Standard and Modern.
Alternatively, LD seems like a worse option if you just want to manage non basic lands that do things; a pithing needle effect would be much better suited than ld as it can deal with any future copies as well. Long story short, there are really no good reasons for no-drawback LD, but many good reasons for some effect that can punish relying heavily on non basics. Honestly, one of those effects was sorely needed in this recent standard (from an outsiders perspective cause I don't play standard, just watch) to avoid the 4 color nonsense decks. This could have been a calculated move by wizards, tho, to have a standard that just goes wild. After all, even though there are multiple 4 color decks, they are all pretty different in their game plan....
Edit: This thing is absolutely going to be played in modern in certain decks. Certainly not a staple, but neither is maelstrom pulse (as far as staples go), but it is a key factor in BGx ability to answer everything. Guaranteed that Esper and mardu will be playing 1/1 split main/board. Can't see it being 2/0 or 2/1 unless the meta highly calls for it, but these two decks in particular need a flexible main board answer or they get rolled by certain strategies (particularly planeswalkers for Esper). There is no way this will not become a part of a few decks. I called the same for painful truths and while this will make less of a splash, it will undoubtedly become part of the format. remember, the reason ulcerated is not played is not because of the three life (Its absolutely worth the three life), but because dismember is just superior (and effectively colorless). I literally cannot imagine any deck that would play ulcerate, that wouldn't just replace it with dismember
Utter end is not "about twice as good", and this new card is probably better.
1) Black and white have the best and easiest access to lifegaining abilities, so 3 damage while relevant, isn't too steep.
2) If you're playing against aggro you just side this out for surge of righteousness or timely reinforcements or whatever. It's not like a 4cmc 1-for-1 removal spell like utter end is gonna do you wonders against fast decks.
3) Being 1cmc cheaper overall helps you to play other spells both proactively and reactively. Compared to utter end it speeds you up a turn.
It's Vindicates little brother, and I love it. Card is fantastic. B/W doesn't usually care about 3 life, so it will almost always be worth it.
1 mana dorks are never coming back. Wizards says it's just a temporary change but in reality they won't bring them back because there will never be a future time in Standard when they would be "safe" to print. Over the years Wizards has permanently removed a lot of stuff in Standard that was originally spinned as being temporarily removed. Mana Leak is a good example of this. Heck we can't even get Searing Spear or Lightning Strike anymore because like 1 mana dorks those are also "too good".
The cards flavour of its art is wonderful, but the actual card is incredible boring.
I allready disliked Utter End and this is even worse ...
Its quite annoying that Utter End was also a full-art promo.
This is clearly not a card designed for me.
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This is why I think the vast majority of players are bad at evaluating cards.
Also, Aggro deck probably get a boon from people playing and flashing back this card.
It will probably be 3-4 of in decks that run it and will be the first card cut in the aggro match up.
Maybe time to find some good sources of lifegain if Kalitas does not cut the mustard.
Also, is the Promo version from the Buy-a-box or is it for Gamesday Top 8?
Nevermind, it is the top 8 promo.
This card is good but lightning bolting yourself is a serious drawback. Maybe not so much in Standard, but I don't know if t his will see Modern play considering Abrupt Decay exists and isn't counter able and doesn't bolt you. I kind of wish this had just been "Destroy target nonland permanent." Would have made a great vindicate.
Thoughtsieze also is a turn 1 play and it doesn't let them cast their card (relevant for ETB effects). This lightning bolts you in a format where you're already taking damage from your fetches and shocks AND is filled with faster linear aggro decks. I don't know if this is where you want to be right now.