Not sure if it's been mentioned before because I didn't feel like sifting through all the pages, but I think you guys are forgetting that we already have a 1/2/7 drop in Gurmag Angler. Remember it's a zombie fish. The only problem I see it having is not having enough cards that you want to delve in the graveyard
A lot of people are talking about using Relentless Dead in a dedicated Zombie deck, which is certainly a good place for it, but I see it more as a support card in a midrange or mono-black devotion strategy. This guy is an absolute card advantage machine in the mid and late game, and you don't really need a deck crammed full of zombies to make him worthwhile, unlike, say, Diregraf Colossus. Just including a handful of value zombies such as Geralf's Messenger,Gray Merchant of Asphodel, or even Lifebane Zombie in certain matchups would make this guy usable. Heck, it even works with the aforementioned Colossus, since a sac outlet will allow you to keep spamming this guy for zombies at BBB a pop in standard.
My thoughts were a lot along these same lines: mono-black devotion with a zombie sub-theme in modern. The ability to recur Gray Merchant of Asphodel makes Relentless Dead a nice card imo, and everything else it does is a bonus
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
also you need to have BBB available else it will just die.
and if you get to untap you need at least B open at all times.
so casting it on turn 2 is not great, because it will just eat removal. and keeping B open means less mana for removal in black.
I'm okay with their removal dying to my 2 drop.
sure, it doesn't hurt as much.
but if your turn 3 plays is a second RD and that gets killed as well you need that third B to at least get it back. but you're goinna run behind.
you need at least 3 mana if you get to untap with it. or 5 mana if you play it and it gets killed before you untap to get your second one back.
im not saying that's it's a bad card, but people are overrating it because it costs allot of mana. just to keep getting a 2 drop back.
In that scenario, it is killing multiple removal spells, at least one retroactively. Card advantage wins games.
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But where to go from there?
Does the deck want to be mono-B and as aggressive as possible?
Or does it want to take a slightly slower UB Tempo type of approach? Prized Amalgam seems like one of the better reasons to add Blue (maybe also Compelling Deterrence?)
but the Johnny in me wants to know if Diregraf Captain or possibly even Havengul Lich are playable here.
The lich is a big gamble, I know, but just so very fun.
Seems like one or two as curve toppers and additional sources of recursion could be doable,
but Dismember is a fairly large deterrent here.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Melek, Izzet Paragon Oona, Queen of the Fae Bruna, Light of Alabaster Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Rhys the Redeemed Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Sen Triplets The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'm curious what a Modern list using this guy would need to shine.
Some really good one-drops (i.e. not Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul).
I think I've said this here before but that second ability is only worth it if there are zombies with powerful ETB triggered abilities at 1 CMC or 2 at most, otherwise it might be better to just play it as a recursive bear with menace. Geralf's Messenger and Fleshbag Marauder both cost too much mana to bring back, especially if you also plan to return Relentless Dead to your hand, and their abilities aren't that great either. By the time you have all that mana up most Modern decks will have killed you already.
Cards like this one only make me wish Wizards wasn't so stingy when it comes to zombies. We could have a 2/2 for B that Mind Knives when it enters the battlefield if you reveal a zombie from your hand by now, but instead they give us Black Cat, because anything else would be too broken apparently.
I'm curious what a Modern list using this guy would need to shine.
Some really good one-drops (i.e. not Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul).
I think I've said this here before but that second ability is only worth it if there are zombies with powerful ETB triggered abilities at 1 CMC or 2 at most, otherwise it might be better to just play it as a recursive bear with menace. Geralf's Messenger and Fleshbag Marauder both cost too much mana to bring back, especially if you also plan to return Relentless Dead to your hand, and their abilities aren't that great either. By the time you have all that mana up most Modern decks will have killed you already.
Cards like this one only make me wish Wizards wasn't so stingy when it comes to zombies. We could have a 2/2 for B that Mind Knives when it enters the battlefield if you reveal a zombie from your hand by now, but instead they give us Black Cat, because anything else would be too broken apparently.
I agree with you, of all the competitive tribes out there zombies are the lowest of the low. Zombies get zero support from wizards... unlike merfolk, goblins, elves, humans, slivers and other tribes. But, I disagree with your use of relentless and messenger. For four mana you bring the relentless back to your hand and the messenger to the field. That's pretty damn good card advantage. Also, relentless, gravecrawler and the new Diregraf Colossus are pretty broken when used together.
I agree with you, of all the competitive tribes out there zombies are the lowest of the low. Zombies get zero support from wizards... unlike merfolk, goblins, elves, humans, slivers and other tribes. But, I disagree with your use of relentless and messenger. For four mana you bring the relentless back to your hand and the messenger to the field. That's pretty damn good card advantage. Also, relentless, gravecrawler and the new Diregraf Colossus are pretty broken when used together.
It's definitely card advantage, it just comes up too late for Modern, I think. And the same goes for the synergy with Diregraf Colossus. It's still at least three mana to do what Gravecrawler already does for one.
We can't forget that we need to cast all these things and have them die while we're untapped before getting value from them, and the opponent won't wait until we have the mana just because there's a couple of two power creatures on the other side of the field.
But where to go from there?
Does the deck want to be mono-B and as aggressive as possible?
Or does it want to take a slightly slower UB Tempo type of approach? Prized Amalgam seems like one of the better reasons to add Blue (maybe also Compelling Deterrence?)
but the Johnny in me wants to know if Diregraf Captain or possibly even Havengul Lich are playable here.
The lich is a big gamble, I know, but just so very fun.
Seems like one or two as curve toppers and additional sources of recursion could be doable,
but Dismember is a fairly large deterrent here.
So have you heard of any1 doing well with it at the current SCG event?
Nope, it'll be a 5 dollar card in a week along with Olivia and the other black aggro cards. But, that's a good thing. The more declaration in stone and reflector mage there are, the lower the price will get.
My thoughts were a lot along these same lines: mono-black devotion with a zombie sub-theme in modern. The ability to recur Gray Merchant of Asphodel makes Relentless Dead a nice card imo, and everything else it does is a bonus
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I'm okay with their removal dying to my 2 drop.
In that scenario, it is killing multiple removal spells, at least one retroactively. Card advantage wins games.
Gravecrawler, Diregraf Ghoul, and Geralf's Messenger seem like auto-includes.
But where to go from there?
Does the deck want to be mono-B and as aggressive as possible?
Or does it want to take a slightly slower UB Tempo type of approach?
Prized Amalgam seems like one of the better reasons to add Blue (maybe also Compelling Deterrence?)
but the Johnny in me wants to know if Diregraf Captain or possibly even Havengul Lich are playable here.
The lich is a big gamble, I know, but just so very fun.
Seems like one or two as curve toppers and additional sources of recursion could be doable,
but Dismember is a fairly large deterrent here.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Some really good one-drops (i.e. not Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul).
I think I've said this here before but that second ability is only worth it if there are zombies with powerful ETB triggered abilities at 1 CMC or 2 at most, otherwise it might be better to just play it as a recursive bear with menace. Geralf's Messenger and Fleshbag Marauder both cost too much mana to bring back, especially if you also plan to return Relentless Dead to your hand, and their abilities aren't that great either. By the time you have all that mana up most Modern decks will have killed you already.
Cards like this one only make me wish Wizards wasn't so stingy when it comes to zombies. We could have a 2/2 for B that Mind Knives when it enters the battlefield if you reveal a zombie from your hand by now, but instead they give us Black Cat, because anything else would be too broken apparently.
I agree with you, of all the competitive tribes out there zombies are the lowest of the low. Zombies get zero support from wizards... unlike merfolk, goblins, elves, humans, slivers and other tribes. But, I disagree with your use of relentless and messenger. For four mana you bring the relentless back to your hand and the messenger to the field. That's pretty damn good card advantage. Also, relentless, gravecrawler and the new Diregraf Colossus are pretty broken when used together.
It's definitely card advantage, it just comes up too late for Modern, I think. And the same goes for the synergy with Diregraf Colossus. It's still at least three mana to do what Gravecrawler already does for one.
We can't forget that we need to cast all these things and have them die while we're untapped before getting value from them, and the opponent won't wait until we have the mana just because there's a couple of two power creatures on the other side of the field.
I'm thinking of running mono-black devotion with zombies in modern. Relentless can recur himself, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Seems like a good start to MBD and adding in Phyrexian Obliterator, Liliana of the Veil, and Bloodghast gives us a solid devotion to black count
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Nope, it'll be a 5 dollar card in a week along with Olivia and the other black aggro cards. But, that's a good thing. The more declaration in stone and reflector mage there are, the lower the price will get.
It’s zombies, so it should be allowed.