Feels fairly mythic to me.
'MYTHIC FEEL':
Well, the zombie players are pretty excited. It's a zombie, that keeps on coming back and back, and that brings back other things with it. When you face it, you totally have a bit of an 'oh crap' moment, even if given the boardstate it's not at all worth having one and you have the Path in hand. When you open in a pack and can play it, you'd probably squee.
POWER:
Definitely somewhat pushed: menace, very good endless recursion, recurs other things too. On the other hand, is it competitive power? It's a huge manasink that needs to be left mostly open and it only has 2 power. It'll get played competitively, but it's no Siege Rhino. On the other hand, for Casual it's a powerhouse, in a slower Zombie tribal deck. To me, this is perfect: fairly fun, splashy power not overlapping too much with the tournament sort of power.
FLAVOR:
Some amount of free pass for zombie in Innistrad block. Zombie that keeps coming back, and back, and back, and brings others with it. Gorgeous art mirroring the old Endless Ranks of the Dead and new Shard of Broken Glass. I'd be very okay with it if they kept making more flavor like this.
All in all, I feel it's about as good as we'll get at mythic for 2 mana. For goodness sake, it's better (in terms of mythic-ness) than Deathmist Raptor.
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
It's a two drop that passes the vanilla test, hard to block, hard to kill, and brings more creatures. I don't know why people think this doesn't deserve the mythic slot.
There's no flavor here, it's just raw, pushed power. It's probably the most egregious example of a card being mythic solely to sell packs that I have seen.
To me, Voice of Resurgence is slightly more egregious,
but that's really *not* the card you want to be compared to.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
This talk about "hurr we're trying to sell packs by making really good cards mythic" is complete nonsense. First of all, of course they're trying to sell you packs. If they don't move product, their business model would be extremely questionable. It's just asinine to assume they fiddle with rarities for that explicit reason, when they're putting in so much legwork into the development of limited formats.
Second, they have no obligation to put cards in specific rarities for the sake of the secondary market, so all the complaining regarding this is utterly moot. They can't just cater to the notion of wanting certain cards to appear in packs more often.
Thirdly, and most importantly, this card would be too dumb in limited as a rare. Zombies are an archetype, we've already seen three commons with enters-the-battlefield triggers...can you imagine that deck never having its creatures die? When a rare makes a joke out of a limited format, that's a sign there was a design error. I get the feeling this was originally a rare but tested to be much too ridiculous much too often.
Fourth, this might be playable in Constructed, but I doubt we'll see it get past 10 bucks. You need to hold up mana for it, and there's already more exiling removal in T2 than we've ever seen. Throw Declaration in Stone into the mix, and you have a 2 drop that is going to be "good" but not "chase". This might change if Zombies as a whole get really pushed, but we've got no such indication yet. It needs help getting into the realm of playability.
It's a two drop that passes the vanilla test, hard to block, hard to kill, and brings more creatures. I don't know why people think this doesn't deserve the mythic slot.
There's no flavor here, it's just raw, pushed power. It's probably the most egregious example of a card being mythic solely to sell packs that I have seen.
MR are for pushed cards that development don't wan't to see in limited, Planeswalkers, cards with flavor (Legendaries or a card showing something inportant in the story), also the wow/lol cards ( with epic felling). Go see the article were MARO introduced MR cards or any article about development of limited eviroments...
For exemple: The Titans ( Primeval Titan ) , Wingmate Roc, etc are all cards development has put on MR to avoid players getting 2+ of them in limited.
This talk about "hurr we're trying to sell packs by making really good cards mythic" is complete nonsense. First of all, of course they're trying to sell you packs. If they don't move product, their business model would be extremely questionable.
Thank you.
Sometimes, I feel like Magic players forget that MtG is a business.
Do you guys like the developers of this game? Do you want them to do well? Well, sometimes you are going to have to pay for that. If you don't like that, go live in a hole because that's business.
Sometimes, I feel like Magic players forget that MtG is a business.
Do you guys like the developers of this game? Do you want them to do well?
No, I don't. If they are willing to sacrifice the health of Magic-the-game (the part that benefits us) in favour of Magic-the-business (the part that benefits them), why should I show them any more consideration than they show us?
Sometimes, I feel like Magic players forget that MtG is a business.
Do you guys like the developers of this game? Do you want them to do well?
No, I don't. If they are willing to sacrifice the health of Magic-the-game (the part that benefits us) in favour of Magic-the-business (the part that benefits them), why should I show them any more consideration than they show us?
Naturally, you already don't. If you seriously want to sit here and pretend that you are a pure altruist and you'd never be just a little exploitative, then you're kidding yourself, you already have been.
Virtually every game is made without maximal player benefit. Maximal player benefit would necessarily not be a commercially viable product. So unless you want game quality to decrease, you'd be best off accepting that games are a business, so games will often not favor the player. I know this may come as a shock to you, but many, many things people buy cost what they do simply to make more money than otherwise. Capitalism in action, who would have thought? Your money is not being sucked into some evil corporate blackhole, it's going to someone who's put their time and effort into making this game for you and wishes to get a good pay from that. There are probably a perfectly decent person, some of them might just be a more moral person in the majority view than you are.
Magic is not a charity. If you don't like what that means, then leave. But stop accusing and complaining about WotC doing only what is only expected of them. They are always going to want to put tournament cards at mythic rare, it's a part of making mythic rare cards special and valuable, and yes, it's part of the business model. It's called a TCG, the trading part is facilitated by desirable cards at higher rarities.
If you want to be more specific about why this instance of such practice is unfairly exploitative, then make that case, I have no reservations listening to that. But simply complaining about business trying to make money is utterly absurd.
The arguments here are just so loose weave and insubstantial, and that gives me the distinct impression of self interested whining, but that might just be me being cynical.
I'm not asking them to be pure altruists, I'm asking them for a mutually beneficial relationship: they make a good game that is fun to play, and we buy that game. A card game where you lose because your opponent beat you in the "Shovel Money Into The Scalpers' Maw" phase is not a good game and is not fun.
Sometimes, I feel like Magic players forget that MtG is a business.
Do you guys like the developers of this game? Do you want them to do well?
No, I don't. If they are willing to sacrifice the health of Magic-the-game (the part that benefits us) in favour of Magic-the-business (the part that benefits them), why should I show them any more consideration than they show us?
Naturally, you already don't. If you seriously want to sit here and pretend that you are a pure altruist and you'd never be just a little exploitative, then you're kidding yourself, you already have been.
Virtually every game is made without maximal player benefit. Maximal player benefit would necessarily not be a commercially viable product. So unless you want game quality to decrease, you'd be best off accepting that games are a business, so games will often not favor the player. I know this may come as a shock to you, but many, many things people buy cost what they do simply to make more money than otherwise. Capitalism in action, who would have thought? Your money is not being sucked into some evil corporate blackhole, it's going to someone who's put their time and effort into making this game for you and wishes to get a good pay from that. There are probably a perfectly decent person, some of them might just be a more moral person in the majority view than you are.
Magic is not a charity. If you don't like what that means, then leave. But stop accusing and complaining about WotC doing only what is only expected of them. They are always going to want to put tournament cards at mythic rare, it's a part of making mythic rare cards special and valuable, and yes, it's part of the business model. It's called a TCG, the trading part is facilitated by desirable cards at higher rarities.
If you want to be more specific about why this instance of such practice is unfairly exploitative, then make that case, I have no reservations listening to that. But simply complaining about business trying to make money is utterly absurd.
The arguments here are just so loose weave and insubstantial, and that gives me the distinct impression of self interested whining, but that might just be me being cynical.
I'm not asking them to be pure altruists, I'm asking them for a mutually beneficial relationship: they make a good game that is fun to play, and we buy that game. A card game where you lose because your opponent beat you in the "Shovel Money Into The Scalpers' Maw" phase is not a good game and is not fun.
What makes this card unfair? Your reasoning remains nebulous. Paying more money is expected to give you more game value, and that's almost always going to result in more game power. The balance to this is diversity of choice, spending more is partially relegated to meaning more deck choices rather than better decks. Rare cards, as a crucial part of the progression built into the game which is tied to money, are going to be good. They're rare. Do you want them to be bad? Games, like any other commercial product, have an inherent conflict between producer and consumer- you can't both always win. There must be a compromise, a fair balance of interest. So, if you think this card upsets that fair balance of interest, then make a case for it.
Having multiples would be completly insane in Limited, recurring each other and getting more stuff back, its a engine itself, and becomes better with sacrifice effects and the more zombies.
In standard the mythic rare creatures are pushed for constructed, and they will be important.
But only some will be reasonable expensive, especially early, if people need the cards quickly.
But even mythic creatures that see play do not keep value just because of that.
20$ is certainly too much, the card probably ends up as a ~5$ mythic that is nice to have, unless it "somehow" finds a deck in older formats too (unlikely, but cant count it out).
does it make sense to use Ashes of the Fallen with Type=Zombie, so you can return every creature with it?
Yes that will work. Even grosser is that it gets past color restrictions, allowing you to pay colorless x to cast nephilim, tri color dragons and such.
And it could hardly be called a bomb when it's still a 2/2 creature, no matter how many times it could return to (un)life, it's still a bear that can be stopped on its tracks by any butt bigger than 3.
It is specifically not stopped by a single large creature which is another reason why it is so powerful. It requires two blockers each time you attack, and each time you recur it, you can grab another zombie from the grave. If this is your only zombie then obvious mistakes were made, otherwise this guy will rock every limited game he shows up in and should make splashes in various constructed formats.
Oops! I hadn't noticed earlier that it has Menace, still, I don't think this should be a mythic rare, a bear is still a bear. It's certainly good but it needs support from other cards to dominate a Limited game. I still see this as a blatant cash grab since it's quite obvious it will be played in Constructed where it can be put together with tons of good Zombies. Gempalm Polluter reprint in Eldritch Moon anyone :)?
What's a Young Necromancer?...but yeah, I hadn't looked up Gempalm Polluter's awesome 6 CMC when I posted, I only remembered the cycling effect and how Unholy Grotto and other things were used to recur it every turn. Maybe they should give this fellow a BETTER Polluter then. Sounds annoying for the opponent.:laugh:
Some people just don't know economics in here. You think Magic is bad with pricing? Look at Yu-Gi-Oh. That game is terrible for long term value. Trust me, I know. This isn't mythic not only to sell packs but to protect limited and to protect the complexity of what a mythic is. Imagine cards like Day's Undoing, Dragonlord Ojutai or Undergrowth Champion at rare for limited? Just stupid.
As a financial economics major who plays standard, I'm prepared to invest in this game for personal utility and a chance to have an actual collection of cards worth something in the future.
Hopefully something that makes zombies as fast as Young Pyromancer makes elementals. Then maybe cards like Gempalm Polluter and Shepherd of Rot would be playable.
Some people just don't know economics in here. You think Magic is bad with pricing? Look at Yu-Gi-Oh. That game is terrible for long term value. Trust me, I know. This isn't mythic not only to sell packs but to protect limited and to protect the complexity of what a mythic is. Imagine cards like Day's Undoing, Dragonlord Ojutai or Undergrowth Champion at rare for limited? Just stupid.
As a financial economics major who plays standard, I'm prepared to invest in this game for personal utility and a chance to have an actual collection of cards worth something in the future.
I don't think Undergrowth Champion would have been all that incredible in limited at rare. Champion you can see at rare going all the way back to Judgement with the Phantoms and how hard they were to kill, especially when you had practically any enchantment on them or on the field boosting their toughness at the very least. Phantom Nishoba would still easily be rare nowadays. If that is the case than all the Phantoms would be rare or higher by today's standards.
It's a two drop that passes the vanilla test, hard to block, hard to kill, and brings more creatures. I don't know why people think this doesn't deserve the mythic slot.
There's no flavor here, it's just raw, pushed power. It's probably the most egregious example of a card being mythic solely to sell packs that I have seen.
This a good card that should be a rare,I don't see what's mythic about it,it's just a 2/2 zombie.Mythics are supposed to be legendary creatures,planeswalkers,world warping spells and ancient creatures that don't show up that often in the world.A common zombie? Really?
I don't think you understand how the rarity system works.
He's right and you're wrong, sorry. Mythic rare is named Mythic rare because it's suppose be the same amount of rare as rares and to feel mythic. Think big scary dragons and cards that do something brand new and complex. Vengevine and planeswalkers are good examples.
How is vengevine okay but not this guy who can break the game even easier? Vengvine has less recurring than this guy and this guy brings back friends with him and can only be blocked by 2 or more creates, hes equal to if not better than vengevine and this is coming from an elves player.
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'MYTHIC FEEL':
Well, the zombie players are pretty excited. It's a zombie, that keeps on coming back and back, and that brings back other things with it. When you face it, you totally have a bit of an 'oh crap' moment, even if given the boardstate it's not at all worth having one and you have the Path in hand. When you open in a pack and can play it, you'd probably squee.
POWER:
Definitely somewhat pushed: menace, very good endless recursion, recurs other things too. On the other hand, is it competitive power? It's a huge manasink that needs to be left mostly open and it only has 2 power. It'll get played competitively, but it's no Siege Rhino. On the other hand, for Casual it's a powerhouse, in a slower Zombie tribal deck. To me, this is perfect: fairly fun, splashy power not overlapping too much with the tournament sort of power.
FLAVOR:
Some amount of free pass for zombie in Innistrad block. Zombie that keeps coming back, and back, and back, and brings others with it. Gorgeous art mirroring the old Endless Ranks of the Dead and new Shard of Broken Glass. I'd be very okay with it if they kept making more flavor like this.
All in all, I feel it's about as good as we'll get at mythic for 2 mana. For goodness sake, it's better (in terms of mythic-ness) than Deathmist Raptor.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
To me, Voice of Resurgence is slightly more egregious,
but that's really *not* the card you want to be compared to.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Second, they have no obligation to put cards in specific rarities for the sake of the secondary market, so all the complaining regarding this is utterly moot. They can't just cater to the notion of wanting certain cards to appear in packs more often.
Thirdly, and most importantly, this card would be too dumb in limited as a rare. Zombies are an archetype, we've already seen three commons with enters-the-battlefield triggers...can you imagine that deck never having its creatures die? When a rare makes a joke out of a limited format, that's a sign there was a design error. I get the feeling this was originally a rare but tested to be much too ridiculous much too often.
Fourth, this might be playable in Constructed, but I doubt we'll see it get past 10 bucks. You need to hold up mana for it, and there's already more exiling removal in T2 than we've ever seen. Throw Declaration in Stone into the mix, and you have a 2 drop that is going to be "good" but not "chase". This might change if Zombies as a whole get really pushed, but we've got no such indication yet. It needs help getting into the realm of playability.
MR are for pushed cards that development don't wan't to see in limited, Planeswalkers, cards with flavor (Legendaries or a card showing something inportant in the story), also the wow/lol cards ( with epic felling). Go see the article were MARO introduced MR cards or any article about development of limited eviroments...
For exemple: The Titans ( Primeval Titan ) , Wingmate Roc, etc are all cards development has put on MR to avoid players getting 2+ of them in limited.
Thank you.
Sometimes, I feel like Magic players forget that MtG is a business.
Do you guys like the developers of this game? Do you want them to do well? Well, sometimes you are going to have to pay for that. If you don't like that, go live in a hole because that's business.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
No, I don't. If they are willing to sacrifice the health of Magic-the-game (the part that benefits us) in favour of Magic-the-business (the part that benefits them), why should I show them any more consideration than they show us?
Naturally, you already don't. If you seriously want to sit here and pretend that you are a pure altruist and you'd never be just a little exploitative, then you're kidding yourself, you already have been.
Virtually every game is made without maximal player benefit. Maximal player benefit would necessarily not be a commercially viable product. So unless you want game quality to decrease, you'd be best off accepting that games are a business, so games will often not favor the player. I know this may come as a shock to you, but many, many things people buy cost what they do simply to make more money than otherwise. Capitalism in action, who would have thought? Your money is not being sucked into some evil corporate blackhole, it's going to someone who's put their time and effort into making this game for you and wishes to get a good pay from that. There are probably a perfectly decent person, some of them might just be a more moral person in the majority view than you are.
Magic is not a charity. If you don't like what that means, then leave. But stop accusing and complaining about WotC doing only what is only expected of them. They are always going to want to put tournament cards at mythic rare, it's a part of making mythic rare cards special and valuable, and yes, it's part of the business model. It's called a TCG, the trading part is facilitated by desirable cards at higher rarities.
If you want to be more specific about why this instance of such practice is unfairly exploitative, then make that case, I have no reservations listening to that. But simply complaining about business trying to make money is utterly absurd.
The arguments here are just so loose weave and insubstantial, and that gives me the distinct impression of self interested whining, but that might just be me being cynical.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Finish Him!!
What makes this card unfair? Your reasoning remains nebulous. Paying more money is expected to give you more game value, and that's almost always going to result in more game power. The balance to this is diversity of choice, spending more is partially relegated to meaning more deck choices rather than better decks. Rare cards, as a crucial part of the progression built into the game which is tied to money, are going to be good. They're rare. Do you want them to be bad? Games, like any other commercial product, have an inherent conflict between producer and consumer- you can't both always win. There must be a compromise, a fair balance of interest. So, if you think this card upsets that fair balance of interest, then make a case for it.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Its good early and its strong late game.
Having multiples would be completly insane in Limited, recurring each other and getting more stuff back, its a engine itself, and becomes better with sacrifice effects and the more zombies.
In standard the mythic rare creatures are pushed for constructed, and they will be important.
But only some will be reasonable expensive, especially early, if people need the cards quickly.
But even mythic creatures that see play do not keep value just because of that.
20$ is certainly too much, the card probably ends up as a ~5$ mythic that is nice to have, unless it "somehow" finds a deck in older formats too (unlikely, but cant count it out).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Yes that will work. Even grosser is that it gets past color restrictions, allowing you to pay colorless x to cast nephilim, tri color dragons and such.
BGW ABZAN WGB
BGR JUND RGB
Oops! I hadn't noticed earlier that it has Menace, still, I don't think this should be a mythic rare, a bear is still a bear. It's certainly good but it needs support from other cards to dominate a Limited game. I still see this as a blatant cash grab since it's quite obvious it will be played in Constructed where it can be put together with tons of good Zombies. Gempalm Polluter reprint in Eldritch Moon anyone :)?
I'd rather have a Young Necromancer to go with it.
As a financial economics major who plays standard, I'm prepared to invest in this game for personal utility and a chance to have an actual collection of cards worth something in the future.
Hopefully something that makes zombies as fast as Young Pyromancer makes elementals. Then maybe cards like Gempalm Polluter and Shepherd of Rot would be playable.
I don't think Undergrowth Champion would have been all that incredible in limited at rare. Champion you can see at rare going all the way back to Judgement with the Phantoms and how hard they were to kill, especially when you had practically any enchantment on them or on the field boosting their toughness at the very least. Phantom Nishoba would still easily be rare nowadays. If that is the case than all the Phantoms would be rare or higher by today's standards.
Monastery Mentor comes to mind.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
How is vengevine okay but not this guy who can break the game even easier? Vengvine has less recurring than this guy and this guy brings back friends with him and can only be blocked by 2 or more creates, hes equal to if not better than vengevine and this is coming from an elves player.