Another question I have, sorry if it should be asked somewhere else. I told my friends that I got mine for MSRP and started to give me a lecture about how I couldn't of because if i did then the store would be losing money. Can someone explain to me how distribution of MtG products works?
For example do distributors buy the supplies and products and then sell to retailers? and is there a contract or law that WoTC has with the distributors from jacking up the price? I know suppliers can jack up the price.
Another question I have, sorry if it should be asked somewhere else. I told my friends that I got mine for MSRP and started to give me a lecture about how I couldn't of because if i did then the store would be losing money. Can someone explain to me how distribution of MtG products works?
They aren't losing any money at all selling at MSRP, they just aren't MAKING as much profit as they could by jacking up the price and GOUGING the customer. Wizards is selling these to LGS and certain online retailers at some fixed price point lower than MSRP. I'm not sure what it is although any LGS owners here could share if they felt so inclined.
I wish I could buy direct from Wizards, but like automobiles, they have chosen to go through distribution or "middlemen". Just like shady car dealer hucksters, certain LGS owners and internet dealers do the exact same thing to make a buck. Its oily, uncool but unfortunately totally legal. Best way is to boycott those who do it and spend your money elsewhere where they don't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
If they want to sell for MSRP they shouldn't reveal what is in it until after it gets released to store shelves. Releasing the info before it even hits shelves will just inflate prices to insane levels.
Er... isn't that what Hasbro and its shareholders are going to want WotC to do?
The company doesn't see any of the extra profit from the inflated prices: That's purely going to the shop selling the product. The only possible issue is if a store refuses to stock the item, but even then the worst from the vaults collection still sells five dollars over msrp post reveal so that situation isn't likely to happen.
Agreed, but it certainly gives Hasbro and its shareholders evidence that it can afford to jack up the FtV MSRP in the future.
(i.e. "Look, the shops are selling these things at $X over our MSRP and people are still buying them! We smell opportunity to make more money!")
The Jitte is ok. I'm pretty sure it was there for all those important story moments. Now, they could have done Yosei or Final Judgment, but they just obsoleted Final Judgment a couple months ago and the spirit dragons got insulted badly by the playerbase in Modern Masters. I'd rather have Tatsumasa and the dragon token, but idk how well that would go over in general. There's also the issue that Emrakul and Lili of the Veil are the only super pricy lore cards and could both be in Modern Masters. They have to make their $35+ set somewhat desirable and lore lends itself to expensive cards about as well as Angels, Dragons, Legends, or Wrath effects. There just aren't that many super pricy, nonreserved list cards, period, though.
Agreed, but it certainly gives Hasbro and its shareholders evidence that it can afford to jack up the FtV MSRP in the future.
(i.e. "Look, the shops are selling these things at $X over our MSRP and people are still buying them! We smell opportunity to make more money!")
BINGO!!!
Another loss for the end consumer.
Just curious, have many people pre-ordered their copies and for how much? I'm just interested to see how much these are going for in the states. I'm from NZ and pr-ordered mine for msrp. I'm very fortunate I have a FLGS that provides MtG products just for msrp.
I am searching high and low with no luck. I can pre-order online for about $85. Nothing like a 150% markup. Even at that price I suppose I would still get the value out of the cards but I may as well just buy the ones I really want out of there as singles and try to save some money. Only offer I have received is from overseas and after shipping and currency exchange it would put it up there in price as well. Looks like I will spend my money elsewhere.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
How much is Hasbro/Wizards selling these to LGS and online dealers for? Can I assume at half the MSRP so around $17.50 each or are the margins much thinner than that. Thanks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
As a new player to MTG I would love to buy this and would pay the $35 MSRP but I just can't afford the $100 on this, especially when I need so much more from MTG right now anyway.
As a new player to MTG I would love to buy this and would pay the $35 MSRP but I just can't afford the $100 on this, especially when I need so much more from MTG right now anyway.
Do some searching around. You should be able to get it for less than that.
I was lucky enough to land just this last hour a "Or Best Offer" deal on ebay through a seller for $55 shipped. It was his last one or I would extend the link to you. What I can say is that if you have access to ebay it looks like some are offering as low a $70 to $75 shipped. Which in my mind is still overpriced but better than $100. Try to find a make an offer. I am happy the seller took my offer, several others declined, he has my money and the other greedy ones can sit on their product.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The reason the MSRP is so low is so the stores can make the profit and not the distributors or WOTC. Wizards designed these to benefit the loyal shops who hold tournaments and keep the game relevant. If MSRP wend up, the distirbutors would be making the money, not the shops.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
As a new player to MTG I would love to buy this and would pay the $35 MSRP but I just can't afford the $100 on this, especially when I need so much more from MTG right now anyway.
I'd suggest that you forget about attempting to acquire the sealed product and instead try to pick up singles. After the FTV has been released, most singles will be very accessible, while Depths and Jitte will merely be more accessible than they had been.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
If they want to sell for MSRP they shouldn't reveal what is in it until after it gets released to store shelves. Releasing the info before it even hits shelves will just inflate prices to insane levels.
Er... isn't that what Hasbro and its shareholders are going to want WotC to do?
The company doesn't see any of the extra profit from the inflated prices: That's purely going to the shop selling the product. The only possible issue is if a store refuses to stock the item, but even then the worst from the vaults collection still sells five dollars over msrp post reveal so that situation isn't likely to happen.
Agreed, but it certainly gives Hasbro and its shareholders evidence that it can afford to jack up the FtV MSRP in the future.
(i.e. "Look, the shops are selling these things at $X over our MSRP and people are still buying them! We smell opportunity to make more money!")
Except this isn't how prices are determined upon distribution. Liliana, the last hope is over $50, so WOTC should sell EDM packs at $45?
Second, the higher the price goes, the less they will sell. Consumers do not buy these right from the source, they go through the middleman. The middleman needs to profit on these. Increasing the MSRP just increases the re-sale value, which will ultimately drive sales down, because less will be shipped based on sales uncertainty.
Finally, all of that is completely moot considering WOTC has no way to determine what these are selling for once they hit store shelves. It's not like they can request their financial records for the actual sale price/net profit.
Except this isn't how prices are determined upon distribution. Liliana, the last hope is over $50, so WOTC should sell EDM packs at $45?
That is a false pretense as you know there is only a chance of getting that card in a booster pack. These are KNOWN quantities. We all know what is in the pack and they know the basic value of these cards on the open market.
The middleman will make a profit on every one even selling it at MSRP. They don't pay MSRP for these. I'd venture to guess they pay about half of that. Now of course that isn't the obscene profit they want to see on the few they have. I'd love to cut out the middleman and pay MSRP right from the source (Wizards) if I could. Wizards selling these for 35 bucks a pop over 17.50 a pop makes them more profit. Yes there are other things like shipping, storage, etc but you can bake those costs into MSRP if you want.
The end user is the one that gets "penalized" the most in this process.
I agree with you somewhat on Wizards having no way to determine what these sell for. But all it would take are buyers with screen pics and links to some of the ridiculous prices asked sent to Wizards then they refuse to sell product to that seller directly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Except this isn't how prices are determined upon distribution. Liliana, the last hope is over $50, so WOTC should sell EDM packs at $45?
That is a false pretense as you know there is only a chance of getting that card in a booster pack. These are KNOWN quantities. We all know what is in the pack and they know the basic value of these cards on the open market.
The middleman will make a profit on every one even selling it at MSRP. They don't pay MSRP for these. I'd venture to guess they pay about half of that. Now of course that isn't the obscene profit they want to see on the few they have. I'd love to cut out the middleman and pay MSRP right from the source (Wizards) if I could. Wizards selling these for 35 bucks a pop over 17.50 a pop makes them more profit. Yes there are other things like shipping, storage, etc but you can bake those costs into MSRP if you want.
The end user is the one that gets "penalized" the most in this process.
I agree with you somewhat on Wizards having no way to determine what these sell for. But all it would take are buyers with screen pics and links to some of the ridiculous prices asked sent to Wizards then they refuse to sell product to that seller directly.
Quote the whole thing, don't cherry pick. You missed that point entirely.
The reason why stores sell over MSRP is because they need to make up the cost of the bulk order on as little product movement as possible. You can't buy from Wizards because they won't make money off of you. These stores have to buy a specific number of these products before they will ship, that's why they jack the prices. If the minimum is 5/ order at 17.50, they need to sell these at $90 to ensure that they at least break even. Wizards has guaranteed sales on these, stores do not.
Could you even imagine wizards distributing these on an individual order basis? These would MSRP for 4x what it is now, easily. And yet again, that is still passed along to the customer, at no fault to the middleman.
Except this isn't how prices are determined upon distribution. Liliana, the last hope is over $50, so WOTC should sell EDM packs at $45?
That is a false pretense as you know there is only a chance of getting that card in a booster pack. These are KNOWN quantities. We all know what is in the pack and they know the basic value of these cards on the open market.
The middleman will make a profit on every one even selling it at MSRP. They don't pay MSRP for these. I'd venture to guess they pay about half of that. Now of course that isn't the obscene profit they want to see on the few they have. I'd love to cut out the middleman and pay MSRP right from the source (Wizards) if I could. Wizards selling these for 35 bucks a pop over 17.50 a pop makes them more profit. Yes there are other things like shipping, storage, etc but you can bake those costs into MSRP if you want.
The end user is the one that gets "penalized" the most in this process.
I agree with you somewhat on Wizards having no way to determine what these sell for. But all it would take are buyers with screen pics and links to some of the ridiculous prices asked sent to Wizards then they refuse to sell product to that seller directly.
Quote the whole thing, don't cherry pick. You missed that point entirely.
The reason why stores sell over MSRP is because they need to make up the cost of the bulk order on as little product movement as possible. You can't buy from Wizards because they won't make money off of you. These stores have to buy a specific number of these products before they will ship, that's why they jack the prices. If the minimum is 5/ order at 17.50, they need to sell these at $90 to ensure that they at least break even. Wizards has guaranteed sales on these, stores do not.
Could you even imagine wizards distributing these on an individual order basis? These would MSRP for 4x what it is now, easily. And yet again, that is still passed along to the customer, at no fault to the middleman.
It's the same logic in car sales.
I don't "cherry-pick". I pointed out where you were WRONG in your position.
Of course there is a minimum order. Being limited also means that a minimum order is going to be a SMALL one. Wizards does not have a guaranteed sale either as a vendor can refuse to buy the product (unless they are obligated to do so by some contract). Which is going to sell out faster and make a decent turn on investment, 5 sets at 35 each for a profit of 90 bucks after a week? Or 5 sets at $90 a piece, they sell to one sucker for a profit of $73.50 then sit on that product for 6 months wondering why that can't find some other pigeon to buy at that price?
Yes its the same logic in car sales as well. I see car dealers sitting around with inventory that they are paying interest on because they want to jack up the price to maximize profit. They end up with no traffic and bunch of inventory that they are paying interest on. And then I see others that are willing to take a far slimmer margin of profit to move merchandise and they get the business AND repeat business. Same principal applies here. Some LGS and online retailers are greedy pigs that want to maximize their profit on this kickback from Wizards. Others look at the LONG TERM picture and see if you treat the customer right and give them a deal close to MSRP that you may have REPEAT business and continued cash inflow.
Wizards wouldn't have to sell these for 4 times MSRP, they are already selling them for probably half MSRP. They would just have to sell them AT MSRP. They already produce, store and ship they would just be doing it on a smaller scale. They know they already are only going to produce X amount of this product as it is a limited run. It may take them a bit longer to sell them but in the end they would make more money on say 20,000 copies at 35 bucks than 20,000 copies at $17.50. They would just have to show patience and have confidence in their product. And its funny, we would see a LOT of higher value cards if the onus of sales was on Wizards over the middleman.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Except this isn't how prices are determined upon distribution. Liliana, the last hope is over $50, so WOTC should sell EDM packs at $45?
That is a false pretense as you know there is only a chance of getting that card in a booster pack. These are KNOWN quantities. We all know what is in the pack and they know the basic value of these cards on the open market.
The middleman will make a profit on every one even selling it at MSRP. They don't pay MSRP for these. I'd venture to guess they pay about half of that. Now of course that isn't the obscene profit they want to see on the few they have. I'd love to cut out the middleman and pay MSRP right from the source (Wizards) if I could. Wizards selling these for 35 bucks a pop over 17.50 a pop makes them more profit. Yes there are other things like shipping, storage, etc but you can bake those costs into MSRP if you want.
The end user is the one that gets "penalized" the most in this process.
I agree with you somewhat on Wizards having no way to determine what these sell for. But all it would take are buyers with screen pics and links to some of the ridiculous prices asked sent to Wizards then they refuse to sell product to that seller directly.
Quote the whole thing, don't cherry pick. You missed that point entirely.
The reason why stores sell over MSRP is because they need to make up the cost of the bulk order on as little product movement as possible. You can't buy from Wizards because they won't make money off of you. These stores have to buy a specific number of these products before they will ship, that's why they jack the prices. If the minimum is 5/ order at 17.50, they need to sell these at $90 to ensure that they at least break even. Wizards has guaranteed sales on these, stores do not.
Could you even imagine wizards distributing these on an individual order basis? These would MSRP for 4x what it is now, easily. And yet again, that is still passed along to the customer, at no fault to the middleman.
It's the same logic in car sales.
I don't "cherry-pick". I pointed out where you were WRONG in your position.
Of course there is a minimum order. Being limited also means that a minimum order is going to be a SMALL one. Wizards does not have a guaranteed sale either as a vendor can refuse to buy the product (unless they are obligated to do so by some contract). Which is going to sell out faster and make a decent turn on investment, 5 sets at 35 each for a profit of 90 bucks after a week? Or 5 sets at $90 a piece, they sell to one sucker for a profit of $73.50 then sit on that product for 6 months wondering why that can't find some other pigeon to buy at that price?
Yes its the same logic in car sales as well. I see car dealers sitting around with inventory that they are paying interest on because they want to jack up the price to maximize profit. They end up with no traffic and bunch of inventory that they are paying interest on. And then I see others that are willing to take a far slimmer margin of profit to move merchandise and they get the business AND repeat business. Same principal applies here. Some LGS and online retailers are greedy pigs that want to maximize their profit on this kickback from Wizards. Others look at the LONG TERM picture and see if you treat the customer right and give them a deal close to MSRP that you may have REPEAT business and continued cash inflow.
Wizards wouldn't have to sell these for 4 times MSRP, they are already selling them for probably half MSRP. They would just have to sell them AT MSRP. They already produce, store and ship they would just be doing it on a smaller scale. They know they already are only going to produce X amount of this product as it is a limited run. It may take them a bit longer to sell them but in the end they would make more money on say 20,000 copies at 35 bucks than 20,000 copies at $17.50. They would just have to show patience and have confidence in their product. And its funny, we would see a LOT of higher value cards if the onus of sales was on Wizards over the middleman.
So you missed the "?" At the end of my "position" then? I asked a question, didn't make a statement. That's cherry picking.
This isn't the place to argue how prices are determined. First, research the topic and then PM when you have a better understanding.
You sell like you're never going to sell again. That's why stores sell over MSRP. They need to make up the money they paid on the initial investment as quickly as possible before the product depreciates, and then they need to continue selling at that price to turn a profit on underperforming merchandise.
While I doubt smaller stores have this, larger chains are contractually obligated to buy a set number of these products. If it was any other way, you'd never hear of somebody losing money, and you'd also pay a much higher price.
How about this, create a product, then market it and take the "Patience and Confidence" route. I'm sure you'll be rolling in dough in no time...
As a new player to MTG I would love to buy this and would pay the $35 MSRP but I just can't afford the $100 on this, especially when I need so much more from MTG right now anyway.
They need to make up the money they paid on the initial investment as quickly as possible before the product depreciates
The thing is a lot of Magic product, including these limited sets actually APPRECIATE over time. Now if you are an owner of a store and think you want to sit on this product hoping it appreciates in value I can see the logic of that.
You and I have differing opinions. We need to agree to disagree and move on.
I am happy that we have people out there that agree with me and will sell to me at a reasonable price. They will get my return business. The others can go pound sand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Oh look another from the vault that you can't get for msrp, why the **** do they even bother putting an msrp on this *****?
Apparently to rub it in the faces of those that don't have connections.
WOTC sets MSRP in order to determine the price they will charge the distributor. It's a straight-up formula.
You'd asked in another post "Why doesn't WOTC sell directly to the consumer?" They used to do that (back in the Mercadian Masques days), and they found that they didn't do it very well. They (technically, Hasbro) are dipping their toes into those waters again with the SDCC 'walkers at the Hasbro Toy Shop. I don't think that anyone thinks of that as a success. Plus, and this comes up every year, these sets are a reward to the brick-and-mortar stores that host FNM and act as ambassadors of the brand. It's like judge promos - they aren't meant for the players to be able to get easily, they're meant to be a form of thanks.
I'll tell you, but I'm curious what relevance the information has to you. Are you trying to find out how many people immediately take to eBay and what that price is, so that you can figure out how much you'll probably have to spend?
I meandered into my LGS this afternoon after work and asked about preordering. I was told one per human, membership discount does not apply, MSRP, and money down immediately, so I did.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
Oh look another from the vault that you can't get for msrp, why the **** do they even bother putting an msrp on this *****?
Apparently to rub it in the faces of those that don't have connections.
WOTC sets MSRP in order to determine the price they will charge the distributor. It's a straight-up formula.
You'd asked in another post "Why doesn't WOTC sell directly to the consumer?" They used to do that (back in the Mercadian Masques days), and they found that they didn't do it very well. They (technically, Hasbro) are dipping their toes into those waters again with the SDCC 'walkers at the Hasbro Toy Shop. I don't think that anyone thinks of that as a success. Plus, and this comes up every year, these sets are a reward to the brick-and-mortar stores that host FNM and act as ambassadors of the brand. It's like judge promos - they aren't meant for the players to be able to get easily, they're meant to be a form of thanks.
I'll tell you, but I'm curious what relevance the information has to you. Are you trying to find out how many people immediately take to eBay and what that price is, so that you can figure out how much you'll probably have to spend?
I meandered into my LGS this afternoon after work and asked about preordering. I was told one per human, membership discount does not apply, MSRP, and money down immediately, so I did.
I'd even be satisfied with Hasbro selling these to BigBox stores and letting them sell them at MSRP. If Hasbro wants to go the direct sale route, I'm all for it. This is and isn't like automobiles. I may not know all the features of an automobile and I may not be able to repair it myself so a "dealer" is the middleman that acts as the arm of the manufacturer (and as a buffer). I know how to look at a piece of cardboard and read it and play it, I don't want or need a middleman for that purchase. The form of "thanks" to the LGS also happens to be a gouge of the end consumer. Wizards wins, LGS/online middlemen win, end consumers pay the burden. If it keeps up the end consumer will reject it eventually and the "gravy train" will be over for the first 2 I mentioned.
I've already purchased, it was posted earlier in the thread. I found as fair of price that I could find at the time. I'd like to see if I'm getting about as good as I can get ordering outside a LGS, nothing more than that and nothing less.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm skeptical the product will even sell, but then again I haven't been playing legacy or even edh lately
Legacy players who would want to foil out Lands/Blade decks might rather have the Coldsnap/Kamigawa foils of Depths and Jitte. Pimp foilers tend to go for the earliest foil possible because they're harder to find NM.
I kinda want Unmask and Cabal Ritual because I prefer the new UI/Border from a design standpoint but old border black foils are the prettiest foils ever and FTV foil is the ugliest.
I'd even be satisfied with Hasbro selling these to BigBox stores and letting them sell them at MSRP. If Hasbro wants to go the direct sale route, I'm all for it. This is and isn't like automobiles. I may not know all the features of an automobile and I may not be able to repair it myself so a "dealer" is the middleman that acts as the arm of the manufacturer (and as a buffer). I know how to look at a piece of cardboard and read it and play it, I don't want or need a middleman for that purchase. The form of "thanks" to the LGS also happens to be a gouge of the end consumer. Wizards wins, LGS/online middlemen win, end consumers pay the burden. If it keeps up the end consumer will reject it eventually and the "gravy train" will be over for the first 2 I mentioned.
I've already purchased, it was posted earlier in the thread. I found as fair of price that I could find at the time. I'd like to see if I'm getting about as good as I can get ordering outside a LGS, nothing more than that and nothing less.
Comparing cardboard to an automobile is quite the stretch. Technically speaking the equivalent of "repairs and maintenance" for cardboard is "providing a place to play", so on that technicality, BigBox stores aren't exactly "middleman" (if anything they are more of advertisement costs to WotC, since they have a much bigger presence than most LGS to the general public).
WotC isn't going around the globe and buying land / renting stores to open WotC Magic Outlets so that they can sell directly to you because that costs money. Hasbro won't take a loss report very well, so that means the base-price will just be raised to match the costs. The SDCC promos are technically representative of that. 5 cards (as opposed to FTV's 15+) costing 100+ dollars because, well the rent at the convention isn't free.
To put it in perspective, over at the Pokemon Fandom, it takes ages for Nintendo/The Pokemon Company to decide to open a Pokemon Center, despite hearing endless calls for them to be opened at various places. Even then, other than the ones at Japan (most likely to do with their passionate culture), even existing Pokemon Centers tend to close/get merged/converted to some generic Nintendo outlet instead over time (it may convert back and forth, but the point it doesn't stand the test of time consistently very well).
Wizards transfers literally all that risk over to individual businesses to carry by themselves. Considering even GPs are outsourced to external event management companies (or the big-names capable of doing it like SCG/CFB), Wizards have always been a relatively low-risk company because they are aware cardboard games are still ultimately a luxury and honestly I just don't see these high-risk moves being made by them. I'll honestly be just satisfied if they headed down the "Print MOAR" route (even that's unlikely, but still miles way more possible than a system revamp) for products like this.
The form of "thanks" to the LGS also happens to be a gouge of the end consumer. Wizards wins, LGS/online middlemen win, end consumers pay the burden. If it keeps up the end consumer will reject it eventually and the "gravy train" will be over for the first 2 I mentioned.
The thing is, WE set the price. On this and any Magic cards, we as the consumer demonstrate what we will pay, and then the stores charge that much for it. Same as if we collectively decide that we don't need Scalding Tarns at $100, except that this is a luxury in a luxury. Nobody needs this set in order to play. The cards already exist.
I've already purchased, it was posted earlier in the thread. I found as fair of price that I could find at the time. I'd like to see if I'm getting about as good as I can get ordering outside a LGS, nothing more than that and nothing less.
Entirely fair.
May I ask why you decided to purchase this product, since you seem so down on it? What are you going to do with yours?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For example do distributors buy the supplies and products and then sell to retailers? and is there a contract or law that WoTC has with the distributors from jacking up the price? I know suppliers can jack up the price.
EDH
Roon of the Hidden Realms UGW
Modern
UW TronUW
Blocks Constructed
KamigawaU|Return to RavnicaUW|TherosUWG
They aren't losing any money at all selling at MSRP, they just aren't MAKING as much profit as they could by jacking up the price and GOUGING the customer. Wizards is selling these to LGS and certain online retailers at some fixed price point lower than MSRP. I'm not sure what it is although any LGS owners here could share if they felt so inclined.
I wish I could buy direct from Wizards, but like automobiles, they have chosen to go through distribution or "middlemen". Just like shady car dealer hucksters, certain LGS owners and internet dealers do the exact same thing to make a buck. Its oily, uncool but unfortunately totally legal. Best way is to boycott those who do it and spend your money elsewhere where they don't.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Agreed, but it certainly gives Hasbro and its shareholders evidence that it can afford to jack up the FtV MSRP in the future.
(i.e. "Look, the shops are selling these things at $X over our MSRP and people are still buying them! We smell opportunity to make more money!")
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
BINGO!!!
Another loss for the end consumer.
I am searching high and low with no luck. I can pre-order online for about $85. Nothing like a 150% markup. Even at that price I suppose I would still get the value out of the cards but I may as well just buy the ones I really want out of there as singles and try to save some money. Only offer I have received is from overseas and after shipping and currency exchange it would put it up there in price as well. Looks like I will spend my money elsewhere.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
How much is Hasbro/Wizards selling these to LGS and online dealers for? Can I assume at half the MSRP so around $17.50 each or are the margins much thinner than that. Thanks.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Do some searching around. You should be able to get it for less than that.
I was lucky enough to land just this last hour a "Or Best Offer" deal on ebay through a seller for $55 shipped. It was his last one or I would extend the link to you. What I can say is that if you have access to ebay it looks like some are offering as low a $70 to $75 shipped. Which in my mind is still overpriced but better than $100. Try to find a make an offer. I am happy the seller took my offer, several others declined, he has my money and the other greedy ones can sit on their product.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
I'd suggest that you forget about attempting to acquire the sealed product and instead try to pick up singles. After the FTV has been released, most singles will be very accessible, while Depths and Jitte will merely be more accessible than they had been.
Except this isn't how prices are determined upon distribution. Liliana, the last hope is over $50, so WOTC should sell EDM packs at $45?
Second, the higher the price goes, the less they will sell. Consumers do not buy these right from the source, they go through the middleman. The middleman needs to profit on these. Increasing the MSRP just increases the re-sale value, which will ultimately drive sales down, because less will be shipped based on sales uncertainty.
Finally, all of that is completely moot considering WOTC has no way to determine what these are selling for once they hit store shelves. It's not like they can request their financial records for the actual sale price/net profit.
That is a false pretense as you know there is only a chance of getting that card in a booster pack. These are KNOWN quantities. We all know what is in the pack and they know the basic value of these cards on the open market.
The middleman will make a profit on every one even selling it at MSRP. They don't pay MSRP for these. I'd venture to guess they pay about half of that. Now of course that isn't the obscene profit they want to see on the few they have. I'd love to cut out the middleman and pay MSRP right from the source (Wizards) if I could. Wizards selling these for 35 bucks a pop over 17.50 a pop makes them more profit. Yes there are other things like shipping, storage, etc but you can bake those costs into MSRP if you want.
The end user is the one that gets "penalized" the most in this process.
I agree with you somewhat on Wizards having no way to determine what these sell for. But all it would take are buyers with screen pics and links to some of the ridiculous prices asked sent to Wizards then they refuse to sell product to that seller directly.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Quote the whole thing, don't cherry pick. You missed that point entirely.
The reason why stores sell over MSRP is because they need to make up the cost of the bulk order on as little product movement as possible. You can't buy from Wizards because they won't make money off of you. These stores have to buy a specific number of these products before they will ship, that's why they jack the prices. If the minimum is 5/ order at 17.50, they need to sell these at $90 to ensure that they at least break even. Wizards has guaranteed sales on these, stores do not.
Could you even imagine wizards distributing these on an individual order basis? These would MSRP for 4x what it is now, easily. And yet again, that is still passed along to the customer, at no fault to the middleman.
It's the same logic in car sales.
I don't "cherry-pick". I pointed out where you were WRONG in your position.
Of course there is a minimum order. Being limited also means that a minimum order is going to be a SMALL one. Wizards does not have a guaranteed sale either as a vendor can refuse to buy the product (unless they are obligated to do so by some contract). Which is going to sell out faster and make a decent turn on investment, 5 sets at 35 each for a profit of 90 bucks after a week? Or 5 sets at $90 a piece, they sell to one sucker for a profit of $73.50 then sit on that product for 6 months wondering why that can't find some other pigeon to buy at that price?
Yes its the same logic in car sales as well. I see car dealers sitting around with inventory that they are paying interest on because they want to jack up the price to maximize profit. They end up with no traffic and bunch of inventory that they are paying interest on. And then I see others that are willing to take a far slimmer margin of profit to move merchandise and they get the business AND repeat business. Same principal applies here. Some LGS and online retailers are greedy pigs that want to maximize their profit on this kickback from Wizards. Others look at the LONG TERM picture and see if you treat the customer right and give them a deal close to MSRP that you may have REPEAT business and continued cash inflow.
Wizards wouldn't have to sell these for 4 times MSRP, they are already selling them for probably half MSRP. They would just have to sell them AT MSRP. They already produce, store and ship they would just be doing it on a smaller scale. They know they already are only going to produce X amount of this product as it is a limited run. It may take them a bit longer to sell them but in the end they would make more money on say 20,000 copies at 35 bucks than 20,000 copies at $17.50. They would just have to show patience and have confidence in their product. And its funny, we would see a LOT of higher value cards if the onus of sales was on Wizards over the middleman.
Back to more on topic:
Prices others are pre-ordering for? Thanks.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
So you missed the "?" At the end of my "position" then? I asked a question, didn't make a statement. That's cherry picking.
This isn't the place to argue how prices are determined. First, research the topic and then PM when you have a better understanding.
You sell like you're never going to sell again. That's why stores sell over MSRP. They need to make up the money they paid on the initial investment as quickly as possible before the product depreciates, and then they need to continue selling at that price to turn a profit on underperforming merchandise.
While I doubt smaller stores have this, larger chains are contractually obligated to buy a set number of these products. If it was any other way, you'd never hear of somebody losing money, and you'd also pay a much higher price.
How about this, create a product, then market it and take the "Patience and Confidence" route. I'm sure you'll be rolling in dough in no time...
Get out while you can
The thing is a lot of Magic product, including these limited sets actually APPRECIATE over time. Now if you are an owner of a store and think you want to sit on this product hoping it appreciates in value I can see the logic of that.
You and I have differing opinions. We need to agree to disagree and move on.
I am happy that we have people out there that agree with me and will sell to me at a reasonable price. They will get my return business. The others can go pound sand.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
WOTC sets MSRP in order to determine the price they will charge the distributor. It's a straight-up formula.
You'd asked in another post "Why doesn't WOTC sell directly to the consumer?" They used to do that (back in the Mercadian Masques days), and they found that they didn't do it very well. They (technically, Hasbro) are dipping their toes into those waters again with the SDCC 'walkers at the Hasbro Toy Shop. I don't think that anyone thinks of that as a success. Plus, and this comes up every year, these sets are a reward to the brick-and-mortar stores that host FNM and act as ambassadors of the brand. It's like judge promos - they aren't meant for the players to be able to get easily, they're meant to be a form of thanks.
I'll tell you, but I'm curious what relevance the information has to you. Are you trying to find out how many people immediately take to eBay and what that price is, so that you can figure out how much you'll probably have to spend?
I meandered into my LGS this afternoon after work and asked about preordering. I was told one per human, membership discount does not apply, MSRP, and money down immediately, so I did.
I'd even be satisfied with Hasbro selling these to BigBox stores and letting them sell them at MSRP. If Hasbro wants to go the direct sale route, I'm all for it. This is and isn't like automobiles. I may not know all the features of an automobile and I may not be able to repair it myself so a "dealer" is the middleman that acts as the arm of the manufacturer (and as a buffer). I know how to look at a piece of cardboard and read it and play it, I don't want or need a middleman for that purchase. The form of "thanks" to the LGS also happens to be a gouge of the end consumer. Wizards wins, LGS/online middlemen win, end consumers pay the burden. If it keeps up the end consumer will reject it eventually and the "gravy train" will be over for the first 2 I mentioned.
I've already purchased, it was posted earlier in the thread. I found as fair of price that I could find at the time. I'd like to see if I'm getting about as good as I can get ordering outside a LGS, nothing more than that and nothing less.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Legacy players who would want to foil out Lands/Blade decks might rather have the Coldsnap/Kamigawa foils of Depths and Jitte. Pimp foilers tend to go for the earliest foil possible because they're harder to find NM.
I kinda want Unmask and Cabal Ritual because I prefer the new UI/Border from a design standpoint but old border black foils are the prettiest foils ever and FTV foil is the ugliest.
Comparing cardboard to an automobile is quite the stretch. Technically speaking the equivalent of "repairs and maintenance" for cardboard is "providing a place to play", so on that technicality, BigBox stores aren't exactly "middleman" (if anything they are more of advertisement costs to WotC, since they have a much bigger presence than most LGS to the general public).
WotC isn't going around the globe and buying land / renting stores to open WotC Magic Outlets so that they can sell directly to you because that costs money. Hasbro won't take a loss report very well, so that means the base-price will just be raised to match the costs. The SDCC promos are technically representative of that. 5 cards (as opposed to FTV's 15+) costing 100+ dollars because, well the rent at the convention isn't free.
To put it in perspective, over at the Pokemon Fandom, it takes ages for Nintendo/The Pokemon Company to decide to open a Pokemon Center, despite hearing endless calls for them to be opened at various places. Even then, other than the ones at Japan (most likely to do with their passionate culture), even existing Pokemon Centers tend to close/get merged/converted to some generic Nintendo outlet instead over time (it may convert back and forth, but the point it doesn't stand the test of time consistently very well).
Wizards transfers literally all that risk over to individual businesses to carry by themselves. Considering even GPs are outsourced to external event management companies (or the big-names capable of doing it like SCG/CFB), Wizards have always been a relatively low-risk company because they are aware cardboard games are still ultimately a luxury and honestly I just don't see these high-risk moves being made by them. I'll honestly be just satisfied if they headed down the "Print MOAR" route (even that's unlikely, but still miles way more possible than a system revamp) for products like this.
The thing is, WE set the price. On this and any Magic cards, we as the consumer demonstrate what we will pay, and then the stores charge that much for it. Same as if we collectively decide that we don't need Scalding Tarns at $100, except that this is a luxury in a luxury. Nobody needs this set in order to play. The cards already exist.
Entirely fair.
May I ask why you decided to purchase this product, since you seem so down on it? What are you going to do with yours?