You guys seem to be missing a really important point:
They're goal is going to be to make a set where the EV of opening a pack is going to be about $7-8. By doing that, they blow away 70% of the posts in this thread moaning about, its too expensive or packs are going to retail for $30 each.
Once you realize this is one of their design criteria, you'll understand the actual set is probably going to disappoint many looking to buy cheap staples. There will be some of those, but not nearly as many as you hope.
Remember they have to sell MM 2017, EM 2018, etc, etc going forward and the EV of opening those packs needs to be $7-8 or so too.
Now with the pure collectors, this may be different, but I don't think they should be protected. This is a game first and foremost.
It's a collectible card game...
To be utterly pedantic, it has always been marketed as a trading card game. Actually... there might be disagreement on the itnernets about whether or not there is a distinction between a TCG and a CCG - some say no, other places I have looked at have made distinctions, so I guess it becomes a matter of opinion? /puzzled
My understanding is that "collectible card game" became the preferred term after WotC was granted a patent that might have served as ammunition against anyone else using the term "trading card game".
As someone else said, value is mostly tied to playability.
Duals are expensive because they are good.
I sold an Alpha Time Vault for $79 before the removal of the power level errata. After that change happened, guess what happened to the price?
Collectors have cards that are worth money mostly for the fact that they are played. The Reserve List exacerbates the problem but playability is the real factor. This is why Alpha Island Sanctuary is $85 and pack fresh Alpha Black Lotus is $30,000.
They could print strictly better duals and you could watch ABUR duals crash in price. Where's the RL protecting the collectors in that scenario? The other comical thing is, a reprint of Underground Sea would not be a reprint of a Beta Underground Sea so I think technically the RL is meaningless. This so-called "spirit" of the RL is also a joke. They act like they're following guidelines that aren't explicitly even documented
The "spirit" of the reserve list is exactly why they won't print a strictly better card. Also, the price on alpha and beta cards is not about play-ability so much as the extremely low print run and the age. How many people do you see playing those duals? The collectible part of this can't be understated, and Legacy alone doesn't drive the prices on these cards. Commander, Vintage and 93/94 have plenty of players. Just because there are many sanctioned tournaments for Vintage hasn't changed the price on P9 now has it?
Vintage exists as a home for cards that would make Legacy unplayably fast and brutal. Why can't it also be the sole home for cards that make Legacy unplayably expensive?
When I was a kid, it never occurred to any of us that they might stop printing dual lands. Although, since there was no Reserve List, it should have occurred to people that they might reprint cards. It was pretty clear what their intentions were to be with the core sets. They reprinted Rocket Launcher in Revised, etc.
I traded 8 dual lands for a Dakkon Blackblade before Chronicles because I was desperate to have one and packs of Legends were already $14. That is probably the worst trade I ever made in hindsight as it included some number of blue duals including Underground Sea. So, I got burned on them not reprinting cards and having the card I traded for devalued in Chornicles (nevermind that Dakkon is garbage... that art tho).
I think that people just want to be able to play the game(format) and feel that their reprint policy is putting that in jeopardy. I don't want to play Standard and Modern is a turn off because they ban things so often. I don't think that Legacy will be threatened until the number of players is too small for events to fire. This would be, in my mind, due to people quitting the game and their reserve list staples getting put into collectors hands where they will not be played with... like all that graded power crap in screwcases. This will take a looooong time.
Sure, you could play Legacy with Shocks but I honestly think that people would rather play a different format before they do that. No one likes running the suboptimal version of anything. People would rather not play than use Cancel in place of Counterspell for example, I think (not that this example would happen just making a point).
Folks just seem upset because pricing are going up, but that's what they do. This is expected. At the minimum, this set is introducing more copies of previously out of print cards for better or worse. They should be fun to open.
Any lawsuits involving the reserved list would be instantly thrown out as frivolous because company promises and policies are not legally binding except when it involves a company's employees. JOTC wants to keep the rl for the sake of keeping it at this point.
Obviously someone wasn't playing cards when chronicles was printed. You can keep thinking Tarmogoyf is the end all be all example that somehow proves a card will never go down due a reprint, but it simply isn't true. I'm not here to change your opinion, plenty of players, especially newer players 10 years playing or less, feel this way because they don't want to spend alot on legacy. Thats fine, but there plenty of player/collectors that feel differently. Then there are people who control percentages of the supply and jack up the prices. Thats not me, thank DB for that crap.
The game and the secondary market has evolved a lot since chronicles. In fact, a lot of the cards you guys were complaining about would not be worth any cents more. The reserved list was not a smart move to solve this issue. It was an emergency move because the game itself was threatened. The game life is no longer threatened by reserved list cardholders, and the value of 20+ year old cards is certainly not much affected by new art, new frame reprints. In fact, the value impact on those cards is only based on the legacy format (which has nothing to do with the chronicles saga, a set which only contained Blood Moon as a playable), and the collectible or pimp value will still be unchanged. The reserved list is holding back the Legacy format a lot. A product like eternal masters is enticing players to play legacy or create a new format to replace it and play these awesome cards. If the reserved list is not banned. That new format will be the norm, because the number of players playing it will be far superior to the legacy player base (think Modern), and the similarity between the two formats will entice shops and legacy players to give up on Legacy. The legacy "plus" your collection value should have had would disappear in that scenario.
If you want to continue to play Legacy, you should start actively asking for the let-go of the reserved list. Otherwise, the format is just going to disappear, and your collection value will drop at least as much as if reserved list staples were reprinted.
Of course that is just the opinion of someone who was not here during chronicles and did not see how much Vaevictis Asmadi's value has been hurt by reprints
I don't doubt that it is possible that a new format, people leaving vintage/legacy could drop the price of dual lands. I also think as supply of dual lands drops (card getting played and destroyed), prices could increase. Age will naturally increase price. Lots of factors can cause these cards to go either up or down.
One that would likely have an immediate impact would be reprinting them. Even if people have more belief in Wizards that they would not overprint, we are dealing with a different situation with the RL cards. They will be breaking a promise. There are several factors that go into the price of a card: Is it playable, Collectible, and will they reprint it are some. It isn't exactly known how much each of these factors into the price, but it would be foolish to think that the RL is not a factor in current prices. If Wizards does do a small reprint, what is to stop them from doing another reprint later, and another, etc... slowly devaluing dual lands over time. The threat that long term you will lose a significant amount of value will cause some to sell out of dual lands. This could cause the price to drop, causing more selling, etc... It could result in capitulation and panic selling. Maybe this wouldn't happen. But what if it did? Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses. Wizards would have to be VERY, VERY sure that prices would not significantly decrease before breaking their promise. And then there is the question of whether they want to be able to make a promise in the future that can be trusted.
I think this EM set is simply a short term cash grab by Wizards. People will spend the higher MSRP for a chance to open packs with some really expensive cards in it. I think it is short sited in the sense that it will put cards into people's hands that want to play Vintage/Legacy that cannot afford the dual lands/power that cannot be reprinted. There are enough people complaining about the RL, and this will likely exacerbate that problem.
Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses.
So tired of arm-chair lawyers. A promise from anyone; corporation, politician, or your little nephew Billy is in no way shape or form legally binding. Like I understand we live in sue happy society but please get a clue.
Even if this set has a larger print run than Modern Masters 2 it still won't effect prices as dramatically as the fakes being sold in bulk for cheap. I think this set is finally seeing the light of day as a result of the success of the Modern Masters sets and because of people inside/close to Wizards that enjoy the older formats.
This guy gets it. There simply aren't going to be enough FoW's printed to affect the price by more than a few points. This set is short term bad news for speculators who might take a hit on more than 4 copies of a card, for everyone else, it's just gravy. It's a supplemental product, in the same vein as Conspiracy or MMA, that requires practically no development effort and results in a very in-demand retail sku that stores are free to price as they see fit.
Also, people talking about Dual Land economics who never played with them as a special exemption to Extended rotation are amusing...
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Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses.
So tired of arm-chair lawyers. A promise from anyone; corporation, politician, or your little nephew Billy is in no way shape or form legally binding. Like I understand we live in sue happy society but please get a clue.
I get you, arm chair lawyers can be annoying. Look up "promissory estoppel". There does not need to be a written signed contract for a promise to be legally binding. If somebody makes a promise to encourage you to make a decision based on that promise, and they break that promise to your detriment, you can sue for your losses. In the case of Wizards, they made a promise so that people would continue to buy their product. Not only that, but they explicitly stated the reason for the promise was to protect the value of the cards you did buy, which shows they knew exactly what the outcome could be if they broke the promise. Now I am sure there are lawyers that could argue both sides of this case, but Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario.
I guess the Reserved List isn't an issue for Wizards so might aswell play it safe.Theres no doubt that if a time when the reserved does indeed create some issues(specially involving money)they will abolish it easilly.I doubt that this promise and its consequences would be big enough these days.
As someone else said, value is mostly tied to playability.
Duals are expensive because they are good.
I sold an Alpha Time Vault for $79 before the removal of the power level errata. After that change happened, guess what happened to the price?
Collectors have cards that are worth money mostly for the fact that they are played. The Reserve List exacerbates the problem but playability is the real factor. This is why Alpha Island Sanctuary is $85 and pack fresh Alpha Black Lotus is $30,000.
They could print strictly better duals and you could watch ABUR duals crash in price. Where's the RL protecting the collectors in that scenario? The other comical thing is, a reprint of Underground Sea would not be a reprint of a Beta Underground Sea so I think technically the RL is meaningless. This so-called "spirit" of the RL is also a joke. They act like they're following guidelines that aren't explicitly even documented
The "spirit" of the reserve list is exactly why they won't print a strictly better card.
If the consequences of doing so could be ignored (if any exist), I'd argue that if slowly easing off the RL is not an option, and there may be some desire to keep the format of legacy from completely dying, then at least WotC should consider easing off the "spirit" argument as an excuse to not print certain cards, so potentially nearly-strictly-better, even if not outright strictly better, cards can be considerations.
I get you, arm chair lawyers can be annoying. Look up "promissory estoppel". There does not need to be a written signed contract for a promise to be legally binding. If somebody makes a promise to encourage you to make a decision based on that promise, and they break that promise to your detriment, you can sue for your losses.
Let me tell you, American legal system is weird as hell.
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standard: BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses.
So tired of arm-chair lawyers. A promise from anyone; corporation, politician, or your little nephew Billy is in no way shape or form legally binding. Like I understand we live in sue happy society but please get a clue.
I get you, arm chair lawyers can be annoying. Look up "promissory estoppel". There does not need to be a written signed contract for a promise to be legally binding. If somebody makes a promise to encourage you to make a decision based on that promise, and they break that promise to your detriment, you can sue for your losses. In the case of Wizards, they made a promise so that people would continue to buy their product. Not only that, but they explicitly stated the reason for the promise was to protect the value of the cards you did buy, which shows they knew exactly what the outcome could be if they broke the promise. Now I am sure there are lawyers that could argue both sides of this case, but Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario.
That's pretty small bananas compared to what various other companies have done in the interest of making a buck.
Plenty of companies flat out break the law when it is profitable to do so.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses.
So tired of arm-chair lawyers. A promise from anyone; corporation, politician, or your little nephew Billy is in no way shape or form legally binding. Like I understand we live in sue happy society but please get a clue.
I get you, arm chair lawyers can be annoying. Look up "promissory estoppel". There does not need to be a written signed contract for a promise to be legally binding. If somebody makes a promise to encourage you to make a decision based on that promise, and they break that promise to your detriment, you can sue for your losses. In the case of Wizards, they made a promise so that people would continue to buy their product. Not only that, but they explicitly stated the reason for the promise was to protect the value of the cards you did buy, which shows they knew exactly what the outcome could be if they broke the promise. Now I am sure there are lawyers that could argue both sides of this case, but Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario.
In Canada promissory estoppel may not even require detriment, it could be enough to suggest that there was reliance (i.e. a shift in the other parties decision after the promise bare of consideration). Post-contractual modifications are a tricky subject though, and our last definitive SCC decision was in 76', with subsequent decisions being from mostly courts of appeal. Not so sure on what the current standing is outside of Canada though, but it's a weird topic.
Obviously someone wasn't playing cards when chronicles was printed. You can keep thinking Tarmogoyf is the end all be all example that somehow proves a card will never go down due a reprint, but it simply isn't true. I'm not here to change your opinion, plenty of players, especially newer players 10 years playing or less, feel this way because they don't want to spend alot on legacy. Thats fine, but there plenty of player/collectors that feel differently. Then there are people who control percentages of the supply and jack up the prices. Thats not me, thank DB for that crap.
The game and the secondary market has evolved a lot since chronicles. In fact, a lot of the cards you guys were complaining about would not be worth any cents more. The reserved list was not a smart move to solve this issue. It was an emergency move because the game itself was threatened. The game life is no longer threatened by reserved list cardholders, and the value of 20+ year old cards is certainly not much affected by new art, new frame reprints. In fact, the value impact on those cards is only based on the legacy format (which has nothing to do with the chronicles saga, a set which only contained Blood Moon as a playable), and the collectible or pimp value will still be unchanged. The reserved list is holding back the Legacy format a lot. A product like eternal masters is enticing players to play legacy or create a new format to replace it and play these awesome cards. If the reserved list is not banned. That new format will be the norm, because the number of players playing it will be far superior to the legacy player base (think Modern), and the similarity between the two formats will entice shops and legacy players to give up on Legacy. The legacy "plus" your collection value should have had would disappear in that scenario.
If you want to continue to play Legacy, you should start actively asking for the let-go of the reserved list. Otherwise, the format is just going to disappear, and your collection value will drop at least as much as if reserved list staples were reprinted.
Of course that is just the opinion of someone who was not here during chronicles and did not see how much Vaevictis Asmadi's value has been hurt by reprints
I don't doubt that it is possible that a new format, people leaving vintage/legacy could drop the price of dual lands. I also think as supply of dual lands drops (card getting played and destroyed), prices could increase. Age will naturally increase price. Lots of factors can cause these cards to go either up or down.
One that would likely have an immediate impact would be reprinting them. Even if people have more belief in Wizards that they would not overprint, we are dealing with a different situation with the RL cards. They will be breaking a promise. There are several factors that go into the price of a card: Is it playable, Collectible, and will they reprint it are some. It isn't exactly known how much each of these factors into the price, but it would be foolish to think that the RL is not a factor in current prices. If Wizards does do a small reprint, what is to stop them from doing another reprint later, and another, etc... slowly devaluing dual lands over time. The threat that long term you will lose a significant amount of value will cause some to sell out of dual lands. This could cause the price to drop, causing more selling, etc... It could result in capitulation and panic selling. Maybe this wouldn't happen. But what if it did? Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses. Wizards would have to be VERY, VERY sure that prices would not significantly decrease before breaking their promise. And then there is the question of whether they want to be able to make a promise in the future that can be trusted.
I think this EM set is simply a short term cash grab by Wizards. People will spend the higher MSRP for a chance to open packs with some really expensive cards in it. I think it is short sited in the sense that it will put cards into people's hands that want to play Vintage/Legacy that cannot afford the dual lands/power that cannot be reprinted. There are enough people complaining about the RL, and this will likely exacerbate that problem.
This is exactly the problem here. And why I believe this will make wizards either drop legacy or the reserved list. The short-sighted decision of making this product was in my opinion a bad call. Because only good if they decide to get rid of the reserved list later, which is something sensitive as many players' comments show in this thread.
Well gee, it's not like people can't trade the staples they get from EMA drafts for reserved list staples. I've seen people on facebook who trade dual lands for expeditions. I don't see why it would be any different for EMA, granted these will be more common but they're still legacy staples. It's rarer but people will also trade dual lands and other legacy staples for modern stuff. It just really depends on where people want to make money on the future value of their cards, and what they want to play with. I think I saw a store owner on this forum who said he's sending legacy/vintage staples on Puca trade just to get standard staples.
And honestly, it might be better to trade RL staples while they're at their peak for the reprinted stuff while they're at their lowest, because as soon as people stop drafting EMA those cards WILL go up over time. We've seen it with both Modern Masters sets and it will happen with this set too.
This is exactly the problem here. And why I believe this will make wizards either drop legacy or the reserved list. The short-sighted decision of making this product was in my opinion a bad call. Because only good if they decide to get rid of the reserved list later, which is something sensitive as many players' comments show in this thread.
I actually wouldn't mind at all if they dropped Legacy or just made a "No Reserved List Legacy". So just giving a quick look we'd get Masques block up (?) so that frees up some decent stuff to play with. Meanwhile the dual lands and other stuff might drop since they'd be good only in Commander or Vintage. And 93-94 too I suppose.
By "obsoleting" the older cards they'd basically be saying: "These cards were too good/powerful and/or The Reserved List is too much of a pain, sorry we wrecked your village but here's some Rising Waters to play in."
Dropping the Reserved List entirely would be amazing, but it isn't happening so...in any case, already ready to draft and buy this stuff.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
I'm almost 100% sure that in the next three years we're either going to see a complete and utter abandonement of legacy, to the point where RL cards lose 50% or more of their value; or we are going to lose the reserved list. I've been thinking about it since hearing rumors of this set. This is the first step on the path to, what I personally think, will end with the abolishment of the RL.
Keep ya eyes out, people.
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Standard
Meh
Modern BUWEsper ControlWUB BRUGrixis DelverURB WRBGKiki ChordGBRW WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW BRGJundGRB
I love how "consumers would lose their trust in wotc" is a commonly brought up argument against abolishing the rl. You wanna know why? Because for me it's kinda the exact opposite. Wizards has done quite a handful of questionable decisions which I remember in my magic life, one of them being the absurd stranglehold they put on desirable reprints. By saying farewell to the rl they would actually GAIN my trust by showing such a strong signal that mtg, the game we all love so much is NOT the stock market/retiring fund game so many speculators love to play nowadays.
Believe it or not, I read a lot what people have to say here with a very open-minded perspective, hence I completely understand the "wizards is a business" type point-of-view some of you have. But come on now, in reality most mtg players (and wizards) are just way too afraid of change, like the last time they announced to change the mulligan rule. Players were freaking out: OMG it will break combo, wreck legacy and what not. At the end of the day it's a scry 1 - and I don't know a single player in real-life that dislikes that change. I wonder what wizards is thinking when they come across threads such as this. In the day and age we life in, it's a sad truth that rich cooperations can pretty much do whatever the **** they want anyway. Well, except when it comes to reprinting old fantasy trading cards, it seems.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
Why collectors are arising against Wizards if they would reprint cards from Reserved list?
I have a decent value of cards among that list, but I wouldn't be pissed...
Indeed, I would be pleased to be able to open again packs with these cards with my friends. Some of them were just babies at that time and they didn't have the chance to do it. Try to imagine it! Opening an underground sea after so many years!!! Or finding a foil common like dark ritual!!!
In the end, do you think that Reserved list has a meaning anymore? World changes and so do the rules...
You sir are in the minority, many collectors would be pissed... Once they go back on the Reserve List, there is nothing to guarantee they wont reprint a card 10 times and have it be worthless. I am a player first, but if I thought the cards wouldn't have much secondary market value I wouldn't but boxes, especially $10 a pack MSRP sets
So you would not buy boxes of Modern Masters and Tarmogoyf is worthless?
I believe you are the one in the minority.
The secondary market has proven to be safe enough regardless of reserved list...
Actually that is completely different. Tarmogoyf and all modern cards cannot and never will be on the reserve list. Equating tarmogoyf to 20+ year old duals and power i'm guessing you don't have much of that so it wouldnt affect your collection any.
The all point he meant is that Magic is a game, more than a way to invest money... Why depriving players of using good cards just because some greed players would be upset?
I play since 1994 and I am not scared that my old limited cards would lose value. Even reprinting, having the real old ones will be cooler Try to see the glass as half full
Yes, you can invest money on MTG if you like, but there are better choice, like gold or housing.
Why collectors are arising against Wizards if they would reprint cards from Reserved list?
I have a decent value of cards among that list, but I wouldn't be pissed...
Indeed, I would be pleased to be able to open again packs with these cards with my friends. Some of them were just babies at that time and they didn't have the chance to do it. Try to imagine it! Opening an underground sea after so many years!!! Or finding a foil common like dark ritual!!!
In the end, do you think that Reserved list has a meaning anymore? World changes and so do the rules...
You sir are in the minority, many collectors would be pissed... Once they go back on the Reserve List, there is nothing to guarantee they wont reprint a card 10 times and have it be worthless. I am a player first, but if I thought the cards wouldn't have much secondary market value I wouldn't but boxes, especially $10 a pack MSRP sets
So you would not buy boxes of Modern Masters and Tarmogoyf is worthless?
I believe you are the one in the minority.
The secondary market has proven to be safe enough regardless of reserved list...
Actually that is completely different. Tarmogoyf and all modern cards cannot and never will be on the reserve list. Equating tarmogoyf to 20+ year old duals and power i'm guessing you don't have much of that so it wouldnt affect your collection any.
The all point he meant is that Magic is a game, more than a way to invest money... Why depriving players of using good cards just because some greed players would be upset?
I play since 1994 and I am not scared that my old limited cards would lose value. Even reprinting, having the real old ones will be cooler Try to see the glass as half full
Yes, you can invest money on MTG if you like, but there are better choice, like gold or housing.
This is ridiculous. No one is depriving anyone of anything. Duals are easily accessible, they just aren't as cheap as many people would like. I certainly preferred trading for underground sea at 30 in value but it being over 200 hasn't stopped me from trading for them.
On a completely different note, invest in housing? A house cost 40 thousand plus. We are talking about dual lands here, all but 2 being under 200 revised so how do you equate those to the same category?
Now with the pure collectors, this may be different, but I don't think they should be protected. This is a game first and foremost.
All the real collectors I know want the MTGO art in print (and foil) to increase the variants, you know, have a larger collection.
And very few of the players I know want the list to stand, I myself have Oath and Shardless, don't care if my power and duals go down because if I don't get to play them, they're virtually worthless.
Who do I see always fighting against the abolition of the resserved list and claiming it's for the good of collectors and players? People who pay for their vacations/drugs with cardboard.
I'm almost 100% sure that in the next three years we're either going to see a complete and utter abandonement of legacy, to the point where RL cards lose 50% or more of their value; or we are going to lose the reserved list. I've been thinking about it since hearing rumors of this set. This is the first step on the path to, what I personally think, will end with the abolishment of the RL.
Keep ya eyes out, people.
I was thinking something similar to this.
The RL reducing the supply of cards for legacy is likely to lead to legacy without the RL cards (or replacing legacy with a format that's legacy without the RL cards, which is basically the same thing). And then there won't be much use for the RL cards in non-casual formats, so they'll lose a lot of their value. So in the end the RL will choke itself. (Maybe.)
Reducing supply to keep value up works for diamonds, but no one needs a certain set of diamonds to play a game. No one's going to stop wanting diamonds because there's a few particular diamonds that they can't afford, making the rest of the diamonds less useful. The RL would work if Magic was just Trading Cards, but it's also a Card Game as well. If they refuse to meet the demand for RL cards with additional supply, eventually the demand will drop once it becomes infeasible to use them competitively.
I guess that means the best way to get RL cards is to stop wanting them. If the only people who want them are speculators, they'll lose their value and the RL will lose its power.
In short, to kill the RL, all players should sell all their RL cards to the speculators and refuse to buy them. No demand = no value = no RL = the reprints y'all want. And if the speculators won't buy them, well that just hastens the loss of value.
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They're goal is going to be to make a set where the EV of opening a pack is going to be about $7-8. By doing that, they blow away 70% of the posts in this thread moaning about, its too expensive or packs are going to retail for $30 each.
Once you realize this is one of their design criteria, you'll understand the actual set is probably going to disappoint many looking to buy cheap staples. There will be some of those, but not nearly as many as you hope.
Remember they have to sell MM 2017, EM 2018, etc, etc going forward and the EV of opening those packs needs to be $7-8 or so too.
My understanding is that "collectible card game" became the preferred term after WotC was granted a patent that might have served as ammunition against anyone else using the term "trading card game".
Bless intellectual "property" law.
The "spirit" of the reserve list is exactly why they won't print a strictly better card. Also, the price on alpha and beta cards is not about play-ability so much as the extremely low print run and the age. How many people do you see playing those duals? The collectible part of this can't be understated, and Legacy alone doesn't drive the prices on these cards. Commander, Vintage and 93/94 have plenty of players. Just because there are many sanctioned tournaments for Vintage hasn't changed the price on P9 now has it?
I was being sarcastic.
I traded 8 dual lands for a Dakkon Blackblade before Chronicles because I was desperate to have one and packs of Legends were already $14. That is probably the worst trade I ever made in hindsight as it included some number of blue duals including Underground Sea. So, I got burned on them not reprinting cards and having the card I traded for devalued in Chornicles (nevermind that Dakkon is garbage... that art tho).
I think that people just want to be able to play the game(format) and feel that their reprint policy is putting that in jeopardy. I don't want to play Standard and Modern is a turn off because they ban things so often. I don't think that Legacy will be threatened until the number of players is too small for events to fire. This would be, in my mind, due to people quitting the game and their reserve list staples getting put into collectors hands where they will not be played with... like all that graded power crap in screwcases. This will take a looooong time.
Sure, you could play Legacy with Shocks but I honestly think that people would rather play a different format before they do that. No one likes running the suboptimal version of anything. People would rather not play than use Cancel in place of Counterspell for example, I think (not that this example would happen just making a point).
Folks just seem upset because pricing are going up, but that's what they do. This is expected. At the minimum, this set is introducing more copies of previously out of print cards for better or worse. They should be fun to open.
I don't doubt that it is possible that a new format, people leaving vintage/legacy could drop the price of dual lands. I also think as supply of dual lands drops (card getting played and destroyed), prices could increase. Age will naturally increase price. Lots of factors can cause these cards to go either up or down.
One that would likely have an immediate impact would be reprinting them. Even if people have more belief in Wizards that they would not overprint, we are dealing with a different situation with the RL cards. They will be breaking a promise. There are several factors that go into the price of a card: Is it playable, Collectible, and will they reprint it are some. It isn't exactly known how much each of these factors into the price, but it would be foolish to think that the RL is not a factor in current prices. If Wizards does do a small reprint, what is to stop them from doing another reprint later, and another, etc... slowly devaluing dual lands over time. The threat that long term you will lose a significant amount of value will cause some to sell out of dual lands. This could cause the price to drop, causing more selling, etc... It could result in capitulation and panic selling. Maybe this wouldn't happen. But what if it did? Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario, and if reprinting results in a crash of dual land prices, they could be liable for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages if it was their broken promise that was the primary cause of the losses. Wizards would have to be VERY, VERY sure that prices would not significantly decrease before breaking their promise. And then there is the question of whether they want to be able to make a promise in the future that can be trusted.
I think this EM set is simply a short term cash grab by Wizards. People will spend the higher MSRP for a chance to open packs with some really expensive cards in it. I think it is short sited in the sense that it will put cards into people's hands that want to play Vintage/Legacy that cannot afford the dual lands/power that cannot be reprinted. There are enough people complaining about the RL, and this will likely exacerbate that problem.
So tired of arm-chair lawyers. A promise from anyone; corporation, politician, or your little nephew Billy is in no way shape or form legally binding. Like I understand we live in sue happy society but please get a clue.
This guy gets it. There simply aren't going to be enough FoW's printed to affect the price by more than a few points. This set is short term bad news for speculators who might take a hit on more than 4 copies of a card, for everyone else, it's just gravy. It's a supplemental product, in the same vein as Conspiracy or MMA, that requires practically no development effort and results in a very in-demand retail sku that stores are free to price as they see fit.
Also, people talking about Dual Land economics who never played with them as a special exemption to Extended rotation are amusing...
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
I get you, arm chair lawyers can be annoying. Look up "promissory estoppel". There does not need to be a written signed contract for a promise to be legally binding. If somebody makes a promise to encourage you to make a decision based on that promise, and they break that promise to your detriment, you can sue for your losses. In the case of Wizards, they made a promise so that people would continue to buy their product. Not only that, but they explicitly stated the reason for the promise was to protect the value of the cards you did buy, which shows they knew exactly what the outcome could be if they broke the promise. Now I am sure there are lawyers that could argue both sides of this case, but Wizards needs to consider a worst case scenario.
If the consequences of doing so could be ignored (if any exist), I'd argue that if slowly easing off the RL is not an option, and there may be some desire to keep the format of legacy from completely dying, then at least WotC should consider easing off the "spirit" argument as an excuse to not print certain cards, so potentially nearly-strictly-better, even if not outright strictly better, cards can be considerations.
Let me tell you, American legal system is weird as hell.
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
That's pretty small bananas compared to what various other companies have done in the interest of making a buck.
Plenty of companies flat out break the law when it is profitable to do so.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
In Canada promissory estoppel may not even require detriment, it could be enough to suggest that there was reliance (i.e. a shift in the other parties decision after the promise bare of consideration). Post-contractual modifications are a tricky subject though, and our last definitive SCC decision was in 76', with subsequent decisions being from mostly courts of appeal. Not so sure on what the current standing is outside of Canada though, but it's a weird topic.
Well gee, it's not like people can't trade the staples they get from EMA drafts for reserved list staples. I've seen people on facebook who trade dual lands for expeditions. I don't see why it would be any different for EMA, granted these will be more common but they're still legacy staples. It's rarer but people will also trade dual lands and other legacy staples for modern stuff. It just really depends on where people want to make money on the future value of their cards, and what they want to play with. I think I saw a store owner on this forum who said he's sending legacy/vintage staples on Puca trade just to get standard staples.
And honestly, it might be better to trade RL staples while they're at their peak for the reprinted stuff while they're at their lowest, because as soon as people stop drafting EMA those cards WILL go up over time. We've seen it with both Modern Masters sets and it will happen with this set too.
I actually wouldn't mind at all if they dropped Legacy or just made a "No Reserved List Legacy". So just giving a quick look we'd get Masques block up (?) so that frees up some decent stuff to play with. Meanwhile the dual lands and other stuff might drop since they'd be good only in Commander or Vintage. And 93-94 too I suppose.
By "obsoleting" the older cards they'd basically be saying: "These cards were too good/powerful and/or The Reserved List is too much of a pain, sorry we wrecked your village but here's some Rising Waters to play in."
Dropping the Reserved List entirely would be amazing, but it isn't happening so...in any case, already ready to draft and buy this stuff.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Keep ya eyes out, people.
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
Believe it or not, I read a lot what people have to say here with a very open-minded perspective, hence I completely understand the "wizards is a business" type point-of-view some of you have. But come on now, in reality most mtg players (and wizards) are just way too afraid of change, like the last time they announced to change the mulligan rule. Players were freaking out: OMG it will break combo, wreck legacy and what not. At the end of the day it's a scry 1 - and I don't know a single player in real-life that dislikes that change. I wonder what wizards is thinking when they come across threads such as this. In the day and age we life in, it's a sad truth that rich cooperations can pretty much do whatever the **** they want anyway. Well, except when it comes to reprinting old fantasy trading cards, it seems.
The all point he meant is that Magic is a game, more than a way to invest money... Why depriving players of using good cards just because some greed players would be upset?
I play since 1994 and I am not scared that my old limited cards would lose value. Even reprinting, having the real old ones will be cooler Try to see the glass as half full
Yes, you can invest money on MTG if you like, but there are better choice, like gold or housing.
H/W - Website
This is ridiculous. No one is depriving anyone of anything. Duals are easily accessible, they just aren't as cheap as many people would like. I certainly preferred trading for underground sea at 30 in value but it being over 200 hasn't stopped me from trading for them.
On a completely different note, invest in housing? A house cost 40 thousand plus. We are talking about dual lands here, all but 2 being under 200 revised so how do you equate those to the same category?
All the real collectors I know want the MTGO art in print (and foil) to increase the variants, you know, have a larger collection.
And very few of the players I know want the list to stand, I myself have Oath and Shardless, don't care if my power and duals go down because if I don't get to play them, they're virtually worthless.
Who do I see always fighting against the abolition of the resserved list and claiming it's for the good of collectors and players? People who pay for their vacations/drugs with cardboard.
The RL reducing the supply of cards for legacy is likely to lead to legacy without the RL cards (or replacing legacy with a format that's legacy without the RL cards, which is basically the same thing). And then there won't be much use for the RL cards in non-casual formats, so they'll lose a lot of their value. So in the end the RL will choke itself. (Maybe.)
Reducing supply to keep value up works for diamonds, but no one needs a certain set of diamonds to play a game. No one's going to stop wanting diamonds because there's a few particular diamonds that they can't afford, making the rest of the diamonds less useful. The RL would work if Magic was just Trading Cards, but it's also a Card Game as well. If they refuse to meet the demand for RL cards with additional supply, eventually the demand will drop once it becomes infeasible to use them competitively.
I guess that means the best way to get RL cards is to stop wanting them. If the only people who want them are speculators, they'll lose their value and the RL will lose its power.
In short, to kill the RL, all players should sell all their RL cards to the speculators and refuse to buy them. No demand = no value = no RL = the reprints y'all want. And if the speculators won't buy them, well that just hastens the loss of value.