quote]
People are willing to buy the products they release as is. Almost every set released shatters sales records.
And a Legacy/Vintage Masters would go far and above that. If Modern Masters (2013) sold out close to instantly I'm sure making one for Legacy would go even better for the company. If it keeps selling better why not make a set that would sell even better?
No, I don't think it would sell well. What would they put in it that they could even print?
If it was making them money to begin with, it would receiving support.
Of course it isn't making them money right now, because they are not supporting it and it is only dying and losing them chances to make money from it.
No. They aren't supporting it because it isn't making money.
No matter how cheap the cards, free is still cheaper.
Oh so that's why people are proxying really cheap cards.....oh wait, they're not because when they are cheap enough and plentiful you don't have to do that. But I guess you believe everyone proxies Island, Wolfbriar Elemental, and Sol Ring only because it is cheaper than those two 10 cent cards and on that sees reprint every year.
I have personally seen people write "Serra Angel" on a Plains before. If one does not have to pay, one doesn't. Besides, where is this magic financial barrier where a card becomes too expensive to reasonably be paid for? Does your income influence this number?
So affording the format is as disappointing as not? Seems like the fanbase puts Wizards in an untenable situation anyways then.
It is disappointing because the format no longer exists in this scenario. Did you not read what I put or is reading too entitled for you? If it doesn't exist then you can't afford the format because it is dead.
If the cards become cheap because the format died because the cards are too expensive... Wouldn't the format revitalize itself? Besides, most Magic players do not play in tournaments to begin with.
It was just as dumb though.
Sorry but yours was much dumber as you assume that is what everyone wants, when that isn't the case in the least and you know it.
And was just as entitled sounding. Of course you want what you do not have.
Commander is easier to support, more accessible as a format (from a gameplay perspective), and currently the only casual, multiplayer strictly non-tournament format that is supported. And it is more expensive than Legacy, and "hurt" by the same reserve list. The reason it is more popular isn't because of tournament support (of which it has never gotten any.) It is just a better format.
What makes the format better is up to the individual to decide, Commander may be able to have more interesting things happen it isn't necessarily better. While it is true the reserved list does harm Commander it is just barely because you don't need Alpha duals to make a deck, unlike in Legacy or Vintage where Alpha duals are needed to even have a shot.
Why don't you need Alpha duals in Commander, but nbeed them in Legacy? If Shocks are good enough for your Commander deck, why can't you settle in Legacy and Vintage too? You are talking about sub priming being fine in one format, but unacceptable in another.
]quote]See above. Block got tons of support in tournaments and was very unpopular within the tournament scene.
That could possibly be from Block being much easier to figure out what the best deck is. How many tournaments compared to every other format does it normally get? Because I don't remember it being all that frequent that Block mattered all that much.[/quote]
They dropped it because it was unpopular.
Thousands of people play Vintage and Legacy. On kitchen tables. Frequently with broken cards.
Did you just compare playing a Craw Wurm on a kitchen table to playing Legacy and Vintage? Just....wow.
And yet, that is most of the games of Magic being played.
You have yet to give any real argument why Wizards shouldn't put some more effort into making Legacy or Vintage more accessible,[q/uote]
Because they are not profiting off it.
[quote] when everyone knows that by doing so would not only make the majority of their customers happy
A majority of their customers are never going to play in a tournament. And if they do, it won't be Legacy or Vintage. Regardless of support or access to the format.
, and plenty of their business partners (most notably SCG),
SCG isn't exactly hurting right now either. They are the reason Legacy and Vintage are so expensive right now anyways.
but it would bring new life into two formats that are on the brink of crumbling
Vanguard and Block?
and give WoTC a new line of cash by making another best selling set(s).
They do that already.
It would also reduce the price of cards making counterfeits less profitable and proxies unnecessary meaning less money spent on trying to stop those that are doing this,
So you think it would be good if all the Legacy and Vintage staples hit what lower price barrier? How cheap are you even talking about making the cards? Because unless they are free, it is going to be too expensive for some people.
either by employees taking the time to deal with hearing stores are having Proxy tournaments or taking some counterfeiter to court, and making this new policy less needed.
They will still need someone on the phone to deal with complaints.
So why do you still believe this would be a poor decision?
Because allowing proxies means that people do not have to buy cards to play the game. By supporting proxied tournaments, they spend money on people avoiding giving them any.
Why would it be so bad for Wizards to abolish the list
Off topic.
and help ensure the game as a whole becomes stronger in the process?
They are. They are supporting the formats where people show up to tournaments with Magic cards.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
You're trying way to hard to get around the reserve list. Just by doing that, you're violating the spirit of the reserve list, and they aren't going to do that. They can either get rid of it, or keep it. There are no easy loopholes.
Where is the official policy for the "spirit of the Reserve List?" I can't seem to find it anywhere. I found the Official Reprint Policy, which is exactly what they promised, no more and no less. This nebulous "Spirit" thing really should be "This is the policy. We don't like it, but we intent to keep exactly to the letter of it, while still trying to improve the game and our profits." Since the "Spirit" of the reserve list isn't actual policy, while the Reprint Policy is, they should follow their actual company policy (you know, what they actually promised to do, since promises are so all-important to them.)
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
@Bauerboss: As a point of advice, your posts are really tedious to read with all the point by point quotes. As far as some of the claims... You can't print anything in a Legacy Masters without Reserve List cards? Seriously? Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Legacy would know how far off the mark that is. On top of that, it wouldn't sell? Are you kidding me? I just hope that Wotc decision makers are not quite as out of touch with reality, otherwise this community is doomed.
@Bl4ckb1rd90: Yeah. This whole conversation about gold borders and abolishing the reserve list really is a pipe dream when you think about how badly they managed reprints for a format that they supposedly do support. Modern got two separate Masters sets, but they spent so much cardboard printing utter trash in those sets for who really knows what reason. Edit: on the other hand, they did reprint fetches and shocks before in Standard, which otherwise would put Modern in the same predicament as Legacy price barrier wise. This should be seen as a templat on how to do it, rather than being so trigger shy about printing cards for a "dead format." Modern's popularity grew significantly from this and its exposure through the MM sets. Had they not done these things out of some misplaced fear, then perhaps we would be preparing the burial rights for both formats right now.
I agree that anything short of abolishing the Reserved List is unlikely to change anything regarding competitive Legacy.
What is interesting is that even if they printed the real deal, prices would likely stay fairly high if not increase on the originals. Wotc would have to print quite a bit to saturate the market and bring prices down toward something more reasonable, because demand would follow supply. Really, I would expect that the reprints only would reduce in price. The original versions would still keep a majority of their price just on the basis collectability and status within a format that is growing rather than shrinking.
Edit: This is an old argument though. I doubt that Wotc will change their stance on the Reserve List any time soon. However, I do think that there are measures they can take to foster the mtg Legacy community on a more casual and local scale. It's at the kitchen table, it's at the lunch bench at school, it's at the LGS where Magic owes the majority of its success. It is disheartening though when you see the kinds of hardline decisions made with regards to its community, that seems in the long run to only endanger its future.
At first the cards would certainly be expensive, but we all know that when you put out cards enough the price will plummet, just like fetches or shocks, but how much time that would take is definitely a question. I'm sure something like alpha duals wouldn't be $10, but honestly $30 sounds good enough to me at this point in time.
I really really hope they just kill the damn Reserved List, but my hopes are very small.
That's because until now, they did a VERY poor job at reprinting like ... anything.
There are tons of cards NOT on the RL which they do not reprint either.
This is definitely the biggest problem that is probably just as big as the Reserved List, they just don't want to print the cards that are not on it, but for some reason are part of some weird list where these can only be made as promos, Force of Will and Wasteland (for the 3rd time in a row) being the most recent like this.
Jace 2.0 is something of an oddity and probably will never be cheap, at least that is my view on that specific card, but for the others I will agree that it is a little absurd that they have gotten to this point. Now the good thing is that in MM3 that we will have Innistrad and RTR blocks, at least we should have them, added to possible reprints which should give good chances at Cavern of Souls and Lily V. being reprinted, along with Snapcaster Mage (although I'm sure SCM is going to be mythic just because they can show us how dumb they can be). Tarmogoyf is practically a shoe in until it gets down to like $50, but if they don't want to use another green mythic slot for the 3rd time in a row and if we get a wish on a dragon scale we may get Goyf as a rare.
Now I don't know enough about past Legacy cards, but it does seem like they would be able to do a non Reserved List Legacy Masters, which is even stranger why something isn't done and where we could get needed reprints.
Vintage is another case all toghether, without a complete removal of the RL, this format is probably dead.
But they could very well "save" Legacy at this point, if they just wanted to .....
As much as I would like to say other wise Vintage is practically dead, of course the one thing that can save it is abolishing the Reserved List. Although with a Legacy Masters some more life could be put into it, but it wouldn't be much.
I remember reading a post by, I believe, Ben Bleiweiss of SCG comparing physical rarities of different types or cards. It turns out that an Alpha common is more rare than a Mythic Rare Foil (even in the older sets with smaller print runs). As a rule, there isn't much that is more rare than Alpha rares. The same can be said to a lesser degree about Beta and Unlimited.
We are talking about Legacy, where foils and judge promos are sought after to upgrade decks and make them look flash. In a world with reprints, Alpha, Beta, Unlimited Duals would essentially be the premium editions of these cards. They will be sought after over all other printings, just as Betas and Alphas are sought after over Unlimited duals. This is what I mean by holding their high prices, despite what a reprints price ends up being. I could realistically see reprint duals at $40-50, while their unlimited counter parts still hovering in the $100-200 range. Beta and Alpha are unlikely to be effected at all due to sheer rarity and collectability. In fact, I would predict that Alpha and Beta editions would increase in price as the format grew.
This is what makes the reserve list a ridiculous farce at this point. Enforcing it is probably one of the only ways to actually significantly hurt the price of these cards in the long term through a deterioration of the competitive formats that feature them.
No. They aren't supporting it because it isn't making money.
If they did it would certainly at least have a chance to do so.
I have personally seen people write "Serra Angel" on a Plains before. If one does not have to pay, one doesn't. Besides, where is this magic financial barrier where a card becomes too expensive to reasonably be paid for? Does your income influence this number?
I imagine it depends on the person to decide what they can afford and what they can't. They will still proxy to test, so they don't waste money at first, but when they find something that works they are more likely to buy if it is cheaper.
If the cards become cheap because the format died because the cards are too expensive... Wouldn't the format revitalize itself? Besides, most Magic players do not play in tournaments to begin with.
I imagine there is a chance if it died and people bought everything they could bring it back, but I highly doubt that would happen.
And was just as entitled sounding. Of course you want what you do not have.
And yet you ignored the last portion of my last post, making a large reason why you got flagged for trolling. What I want is the game to do better, I don't care about me not affording the cards, because even if the cards got cut in half I probably still couldn't, but I would much rather have the entirety of the Magic community to be able to afford them. I want the game to do better, but that must be entitled to you as well.
Why don't you need Alpha duals in Commander, but nbeed them in Legacy? If Shocks are good enough for your Commander deck, why can't you settle in Legacy and Vintage too? You are talking about sub priming being fine in one format, but unacceptable in another.
You don't need Alpha duals in Commander because there are plenty of other choices and there isn't even a guarantee to get them when it is 1 out of 99 cards. Not to mention you not having an Alpha dual isn't the reason why you did poorly.
You can't be serious though about saying Shocks would work just as well in place of Alpha duals in Legacy/Vintage. Go ahead and try to run without the Alpha duals in a Legacy deck like Sultai or Esper and replace them with Shocks, because you will always be a turn behind or down life because you had to do it much more than the people with Alpha duals. If the Alpha duals didn't exist Shocks would be fine, but unfortunately Alpha duals are always better than them.
A majority of their customers are never going to play in a tournament. And if they do, it won't be Legacy or Vintage. Regardless of support or access to the format.
No one calls their kitchen table matches Legacy or Vintage, they only call them that when they are talking about a competitive deck made specifically for those formats.
SCG isn't exactly hurting right now either. They are the reason Legacy and Vintage are so expensive right now anyways.
And they see the error of doing this and know they need cheaper cards.
They do that already.
And they could do it even more.
So you think it would be good if all the Legacy and Vintage staples hit what lower price barrier? How cheap are you even talking about making the cards? Because unless they are free, it is going to be too expensive for some people.
You think it would be bad if they hit a lower price barrier? Yes, you are right no matter what someone out there may not be able to afford everything, or anything, but right now a vast majority are having issues with affording it, we should get it down to "some" people not being able to afford, not most.
They will still need someone on the phone to deal with complaints.
Yes, that is right, but with even more complaints coming in that could mean more employees to handle it, costing WoTC more money in doing so, not to mention spending the time on taking out a stores status, which would happen more as well taking even more time to get things done and more employees.
Off topic.
How is asking you how you think removing the Reserved List would be bad off topic? This whole discussion has been based on that.
They are. They are supporting the formats where people show up to tournaments with Magic cards.
And people are not showing up because they can't afford the cards to go to the tournament. Do you not see the issue? More tournaments would not solve it, the cards need to be available enough to even be able to play. If they were more would want to go to tournaments, but because it is difficult to get them no one wants to go. Support is more than just tournaments.
You're trying way to hard to get around the reserve list. Just by doing that, you're violating the spirit of the reserve list, and they aren't going to do that. They can either get rid of it, or keep it. There are no easy loopholes.
Where is the official policy for the "spirit of the Reserve List?" I can't seem to find it anywhere. I found the Official Reprint Policy, which is exactly what they promised, no more and no less. This nebulous "Spirit" thing really should be "This is the policy. We don't like it, but we intent to keep exactly to the letter of it, while still trying to improve the game and our profits." Since the "Spirit" of the reserve list isn't actual policy, while the Reprint Policy is, they should follow their actual company policy (you know, what they actually promised to do, since promises are so all-important to them.)
Spirit of the reserved list is really just a legal thing, and likely came from their legal team after the first FTV. You have to remember, that the entire reserve list issue is now a legal issue. There's no way to know who would win a (potential) lawsuit, but that's what scares WOTC. At the end of the day, it will come down to what a reasonable non-Magic player thinks about whether WOTC promised anything and whether they broke that promise, and a jury may decide that breaking the spirit of the reserve list is breaking the promise.
Personally, I really don't care about the reserve list. I make enough money to buy a dual land every few months or so, and when I do buy a dual land, it feels good. I like the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it. That said, I certainly understand the other arguments, and it would be nice to actually play Lands in Legacy without having to wait another year to actually earn the money necessary for it. The main reason I want them to abolish the reserve list is that I want to see what happens with the lawsuit, if it happens. As a lawyer, it will be interesting to see the lawyer's arguments on both sides.
I'd love to see it actually go to trial as well, but Hasbro/WotC seems to be uninterested in going that route. I imagine that if their market research suggests that it would be profitable to fight it in court, they'll eventually do so, and that things like MTGO Vintage Masters are being used to see just how big the market for Reserved List staples really is. I'm kind of in the same boat: I can buy duals at a decent rate, although I generally choose other things to spend the money on. Mainly because, in my area, Legacy and Vintage are both dead. I can put them in my EDH decks, but since I already had a few duals from a long time ago, I've used those and not needed to buy more.
If Legacy and Vintage were more played around here, I'd likely have more incentive to buy them, but without reprints, Legacy and Vintage aren't going to pick up anytime soon. I'll pick up te few duals I need in duplicate (Badlands and Savannah at the moment,) but buying them for a format nobody in my area plays, a format that has no tournaments in my area, doesn't seem worth it when for the same money I can pick up other EDH/Standard/Modern staples and actually get to PLAY them. Nobody in my area even ran proxy tournaments, and after this announcement, there's no way anyone ever will.
The Official Reprint policy is the entirety of their promise. I'd love to see anyone (other than MaRo) try to claim that the "spirit of the Reserve List" is an actual thing. Especially in any legal argument, when the policy has been in place for almost 2 decades, and has been unchanged since March 2010. If there were any objections to the official reprint policy, they should have been lodged almost 6 years ago, and trying to NOW state that the Policy is somehow not enough, that some unwritten "spirit" is needed, is pretty shaky logic.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
From the Vault is a better place for most of those cards. Or Modern Masters.
No. They aren't supporting it because it isn't making money.
If they did it would certainly at least have a chance to do so.
Thy did support it. It didn't make money. Now it gets less support.
I have personally seen people write "Serra Angel" on a Plains before. If one does not have to pay, one doesn't. Besides, where is this magic financial barrier where a card becomes too expensive to reasonably be paid for? Does your income influence this number?
I imagine it depends on the person to decide what they can afford and what they can't. They will still proxy to test, so they don't waste money at first, but when they find something that works they are more likely to buy if it is cheaper.
Legacy and Vintage have sat well behind Standard, Extended, Modern, Limited, even things like 2HG Sealed for years. Even when it was cheaper to play than some of those formats (I'm looking at you, Extended.)
If the cards become cheap because the format died because the cards are too expensive... Wouldn't the format revitalize itself? Besides, most Magic players do not play in tournaments to begin with.
I imagine there is a chance if it died and people bought everything they could bring it back, but I highly doubt that would happen.
But I thought that if the cards were cheap, people would play?
And was just as entitled sounding. Of course you want what you do not have.
And yet you ignored the last portion of my last post, making a large reason why you got flagged for trolling.
No, that was because telling someone that they can make more money is mean and discouraging. Apparently.
What I want is the game to do better,
How does the game do better if the game pieces become unnecessary?
I don't care about me not affording the cards, because even if the cards got cut in half I probably still couldn't,
Don't you see that this issue could continue no matter how low they got? That if open acceptance of proxies is allowed, there becomes less incentive for stores to sell cards. Why would Wizards, from a business perspective, encourage people to not use the things they sell. Let alone spend their own money to support those people.
but I would much rather have the entirety of the Magic community to be able to afford them.
Me too. It is why I support people's decisions to seek high paying employment.
I want the game to do better, but that must be entitled to you as well.
I also want the game to do better. But you haven't proven how this would actually improve the game. Maybe your debate belongs in BaseSpec?
Why don't you need Alpha duals in Commander, but need them in Legacy? If Shocks are good enough for your Commander deck, why can't you settle in Legacy and Vintage too? You are talking about sub priming being fine in one format, but unacceptable in another.
You don't need Alpha duals in Commander because there are plenty of other choices
As there are in Legacy/ Vintage. Hell, Vintage has more options than Commander for lands.
and there isn't even a guarantee to get them when it is 1 out of 99 cards.
There is no guarantee in any format of getting any specific card.
Not to mention you not having an Alpha dual isn't the reason why you did poorly.
Not to mention you not having an Alpha dual isn't the reason why you did poorly.[/copypasta]
You can't be serious though about saying Shocks would work just as well in place of Alpha duals in Legacy/Vintage.
You cannot seriously be saying that optimizing and deck building are the same thing. I can almost understand feeling like you deserve to own a Legacy deck, even if it sounds entitled to me. But to say that you also deserve to play an optimized Legacy deck is blatant entitlement.
Go ahead and try to run without the Alpha duals in a Legacy deck like Sultai or Esper and replace them with Shocks,
Build to your budget, or accept a Win/Loss ratio within your budget.
because you will always be a turn behind or down life
Hmmm... I wonder if it would be a bit on the nose for me to isolate this in a quote?
because you had to do it much more than the people with Alpha duals. If the Alpha duals didn't exist Shocks would be fine, but unfortunately Alpha duals are always better than them.
They are better in Commander too.
A majority of their customers are never going to play in a tournament. And if they do, it won't be Legacy or Vintage. Regardless of support or access to the format.
No one calls their kitchen table matches Legacy or Vintage, they only call them that when they are talking about a competitive deck made specifically for those formats.
And for years nobody called Standard anything but Type 2. But it was still Standard.
SCG isn't exactly hurting right now either. They are the reason Legacy and Vintage are so expensive right now anyways.
And they see the error of doing this and know they need cheaper cards.
And yet they keep the prices fixed on an upward trend... and they still sell out of those cards that go up in price...
They do that already.
And they could do it even more.
Or less. Or the same amount. Possibilities are great.
So you think it would be good if all the Legacy and Vintage staples hit what lower price barrier? How cheap are you even talking about making the cards? Because unless they are free, it is going to be too expensive for some people.
You think it would be bad if they hit a lower price barrier?
I didn't say that, but yeah, kinda. If it was because of proxies at least (you know, the topic at hand...) Are you avoiding the question?
Yes, you are right no matter what
I mean, I am a bit too narcissistic to not do this one. No point this time. Just wanted to see it on my monitor.
someone out there may not be able to afford everything, or anything, but right now a vast majority are having issues with affording it, we should get it down to "some" people not being able to afford, not most.
A vast majority of players don't care about the price of cards, because a vast majority of players play nothing but casual games with the cards they have.
They will still need someone on the phone to deal with complaints.
Yes, that is right, but with even more complaints coming in
Welcome to Magic fandom, where a majority of the players complain about every aspect of the game.
that could mean more employees to handle it, costing WoTC more money in doing so, not to mention spending the time on taking out a stores status, which would happen more as well taking even more time to get things done and more employees.
This slope seems kinda slippery.
Off topic.
How is asking you how you think removing the Reserved List would be bad off topic? This whole discussion has been based on that.
I thought we were talking about proxies in sanctioned tournaments, maybe some sort of WPN crackdown... Did I get lost on the forums?
They are. They are supporting the formats where people show up to tournaments with Magic cards.
And people are not showing up because they can't afford the cards to go to the tournament.
They tell you this? The people who can fly across the country to play a game cannot afford Taigas?
Do you not see the issue?
I've been told I am not allowed to answer this. But if I did, it would be about personal responsibility more so than... whatever it is you're trying to claim.
More tournaments would not solve it, the cards need to be available enough to even be able to play.
Which cards needed to play Legacy/ Vintage are unobtainable?
If they were more would want to go to tournaments, but because it is difficult to get them no one wants to go.
1) Oh really? You don't think so? Then what do I find here in your reply to me?
Quote from BauberBoss »
"It is good to let the less popular formats die so that they have more to support the popular formats with."
Letting something die, and feeling that it is good is not the same as feeling that they deserve to die. It is a Sophie's choice sort of situation. Except I never bet on human life.
Context: In regards to Vintage and Legacy and my statement of how WOTC has the power to "breath new life into any format they choose"
2) It may not affect the kitchen table, but this rule does affect every LGS in an uncomfortable way.
I am indifferent towards the health of LGSs as well. They succeed and fail on their own accord.
3) Unfun formats? Fun is subjective and is hardly and rarely a strong leg to stand on. What one person considers fun is not fun for another.
Example: I find standard is not fun and you find standard to be fun. My opinion on standard is only subjective to you and it does not hold well when scrutinized in return.
Obviously the amount of people enjoying playing the format is no way a reflection of the amount of people enjoying playing the format. I should have just said popular.
4) A shame about block format but that is also the side-effect of FNM where Standard tends to reign supreme instead.
Why do you think this is?
I hardly know of, for instance, that many LGS aside from mine and a couple others that run a sanctioned 2HG Standard for their FNM.
Nice to know what you know.
6) Extended? Oh it still exists
No
and is quiet lively,
Just no.
its just that its name has changed and it no longer rotates anymore.
So it is called something different, and the format does something different, and the deck styles, trends, and card pool sizes are all different.
Sure, tell me more about how they are the same format.
It goes by the name "Modern" nowadays.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Commander.
This is what I was referring to when WOTC can "breath new life into any format they choose".
7) Tournament support does exist for Commander though. Its called Duel Commander. DC is about 1v1 instead of multiplayer. Its also the more "competitive scene" side of Commander.
MTGO Vintage Masters are being used to see just how big the market for Reserved List staples really is.
I don't doubt this, except it's such a flawed approach due to the platform.
I completely doubt that. It would be a terrible platform to use. They released Vintage Masters because they wanted a way to get P9 on MTGO. Simple as that.
Edit: Also, can you other two stop responding to each other. You're clearly not getting anywhere, and it's making the thread close to unreadable with your formatting. Just let it go.
If you can't conceive a blockbuster 200 reprint card set that isn't Modern-legal without those 28 cards you don't know ***** about Legacy.
Why is it always the people who don't know ***** about Legacy trying to tell us we don't know what we want when we ask for this kind of very easy and very competent solutions?
From the Vault is a better place for most of those cards. Or Modern Masters.
There is ONE Modern-legal card in that list FFS.
Why do we reply to these people it's obvious their interests aren't with Eternal's sustained playability and they're either contrarians or sell expensive cardboard for a living.
If you can't conceive a blockbuster 200 reprint card set that isn't Modern-legal without those 28 cards you don't know ***** about Legacy.
Why is it always the people who don't know ***** about Legacy trying to tell us we don't know what we want when we ask for this kind of very easy and very competent solutions?
None of those cards could be put into a set that could reasonably be sold to draft. There, updated for specificity.
Besides, even if they did release them, the only people who could afford reasonable amount of the product would be the same ones who can afford the singles. It wouldn't solve anything about the whining of poor people.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
From the Vault is a better place for most of those cards. Or Modern Masters.
There is ONE Modern-legal card in that list FFS.
Why do we reply to these people it's obvious their interests aren't with Eternal's sustained playability and they're either contrarians or sell expensive cardboard for a living.
If the people who's interests are in the survival of the Eternal formats actually cared about the formats, they wouldn't be in any trouble.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
If you can't conceive a blockbuster 200 reprint card set that isn't Modern-legal without those 28 cards you don't know ***** about Legacy.
Or... maybe... *smacks forehead* there is a little roadblock called the Reserve List, and it's not a matter of knowing ***** about/not knowing ***** about Legacy?
"Unfortunately", something that excludes the RL cards will have to do if this ever becomes a thing until/unless WotC weens off of it. I put the unfortunately in quotes because there is still a decent amount of non-RL stuff that sees play (and jank filler, as well as stuff that could be useful in commander, and just fun in casual play), isn't there?
If you can't conceive a blockbuster 200 reprint card set that isn't Modern-legal without those 28 cards you don't know ***** about Legacy.
Or... maybe... *smacks forehead* there is a little roadblock called the Reserve List, and it's not a matter of knowing ***** about/not knowing ***** about Legacy?
"Unfortunately", something that excludes the RL cards will have to do if this ever becomes a thing until/unless WotC weens off of it. I put the unfortunately in quotes because there is still a decent amount of non-RL stuff that sees play (and jank filler, as well as stuff that could be useful in commander, and just fun in casual play), isn't there?
There are plenty of non Reserved List cards that a Legacy Masters could be doable, even with the jank. Honestly if they wanted they could also make it with Limited not in mind, so we don't have more jank filling up the set than need be, like how MM2 suffered because of this.
Or... maybe... *smacks forehead* there is a little roadblock called the Reserve List, and it's not a matter of knowing ***** about/not knowing ***** about Legacy?
You'd do yourself a favour by reading the quotes you respond to. lol.
Of the 500 or so most played Legacy cards, only 33 are on the reserve list. You could do two Masters sets, not even print any filler, and still have some left over for another set.
Main problem with the barrier to entry is that the Duals are part of the Reserve List and generally make up the most substantial cost of many decks.
I can very much see how gold bordered reprints violate the spirit of the reserved list and understand why wizards would choose not to do them.
But does anyone here actually think that if wizards printed checklist proxy cards, like they did for DFCs, with the names of reserved list cards, that this would violate the spirit of the reserved list? When one proxy can be marked to represented one of say 20 different legacy/vintage staples on it, and be used to represent that in your deck only in playtesting and proxy-allowed tournaments, would this be a violation of the reprint policy if it listed the power nine and dual lands, or other inaccessible legacy/vintage staples even if they weren't on the reserved list?
Wizards printing official proxies would keep legacy/vintage as accessible formats while not devaluing the reserved list cards or impinging on wizards IP like custom proxies in sanctioned events. So tell me, whats the problem with my proposal?
While I don't agree that Gold Border violates the spirit, whatever the bs that is (after all, they have already printed RL cards in Gold Border in the past).
I'd certainly take the more nondescript proxies over nothing. For something like that to be worthwhile though, they would need to be coupled with a LGS level policy regarding their use in sanctioned low level events.
We already have rules enforcement levels when it comes to different scales of events. Why that cannot be referenced with regards to these types of proxies I do not understand.
While I don't agree that Gold Border violates the spirit, whatever the bs that is (after all, they have already printed RL cards in Gold Border in the past).
The gold bordered versions were printed before the cards were on the RL. The last Gold bordered cards were printed in 2005 (of the 2004 champ decks).
How is it people don't understand that if they print something for the purpose of tournaments that is functionally a card on the RL it violates the RL, the only way around the RL, remember they've already chosen to remove the other loopholes, is cards in capable of being played in tournaments like oversized.
No, I don't think it would sell well. What would they put in it that they could even print?
No. They aren't supporting it because it isn't making money.
I have personally seen people write "Serra Angel" on a Plains before. If one does not have to pay, one doesn't. Besides, where is this magic financial barrier where a card becomes too expensive to reasonably be paid for? Does your income influence this number?
If the cards become cheap because the format died because the cards are too expensive... Wouldn't the format revitalize itself? Besides, most Magic players do not play in tournaments to begin with.
And was just as entitled sounding. Of course you want what you do not have.
Why don't you need Alpha duals in Commander, but nbeed them in Legacy? If Shocks are good enough for your Commander deck, why can't you settle in Legacy and Vintage too? You are talking about sub priming being fine in one format, but unacceptable in another.
That could possibly be from Block being much easier to figure out what the best deck is. How many tournaments compared to every other format does it normally get? Because I don't remember it being all that frequent that Block mattered all that much.[/quote]
They dropped it because it was unpopular.
And yet, that is most of the games of Magic being played.
A majority of their customers are never going to play in a tournament. And if they do, it won't be Legacy or Vintage. Regardless of support or access to the format.
SCG isn't exactly hurting right now either. They are the reason Legacy and Vintage are so expensive right now anyways.
Vanguard and Block?
They do that already.
So you think it would be good if all the Legacy and Vintage staples hit what lower price barrier? How cheap are you even talking about making the cards? Because unless they are free, it is going to be too expensive for some people.
They will still need someone on the phone to deal with complaints.
Because allowing proxies means that people do not have to buy cards to play the game. By supporting proxied tournaments, they spend money on people avoiding giving them any.
Off topic.
They are. They are supporting the formats where people show up to tournaments with Magic cards.
Where is the official policy for the "spirit of the Reserve List?" I can't seem to find it anywhere. I found the Official Reprint Policy, which is exactly what they promised, no more and no less. This nebulous "Spirit" thing really should be "This is the policy. We don't like it, but we intent to keep exactly to the letter of it, while still trying to improve the game and our profits." Since the "Spirit" of the reserve list isn't actual policy, while the Reprint Policy is, they should follow their actual company policy (you know, what they actually promised to do, since promises are so all-important to them.)
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
@Bl4ckb1rd90: Yeah. This whole conversation about gold borders and abolishing the reserve list really is a pipe dream when you think about how badly they managed reprints for a format that they supposedly do support. Modern got two separate Masters sets, but they spent so much cardboard printing utter trash in those sets for who really knows what reason. Edit: on the other hand, they did reprint fetches and shocks before in Standard, which otherwise would put Modern in the same predicament as Legacy price barrier wise. This should be seen as a templat on how to do it, rather than being so trigger shy about printing cards for a "dead format." Modern's popularity grew significantly from this and its exposure through the MM sets. Had they not done these things out of some misplaced fear, then perhaps we would be preparing the burial rights for both formats right now.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
At first the cards would certainly be expensive, but we all know that when you put out cards enough the price will plummet, just like fetches or shocks, but how much time that would take is definitely a question. I'm sure something like alpha duals wouldn't be $10, but honestly $30 sounds good enough to me at this point in time.
This is definitely the biggest problem that is probably just as big as the Reserved List, they just don't want to print the cards that are not on it, but for some reason are part of some weird list where these can only be made as promos, Force of Will and Wasteland (for the 3rd time in a row) being the most recent like this.
Jace 2.0 is something of an oddity and probably will never be cheap, at least that is my view on that specific card, but for the others I will agree that it is a little absurd that they have gotten to this point. Now the good thing is that in MM3 that we will have Innistrad and RTR blocks, at least we should have them, added to possible reprints which should give good chances at Cavern of Souls and Lily V. being reprinted, along with Snapcaster Mage (although I'm sure SCM is going to be mythic just because they can show us how dumb they can be). Tarmogoyf is practically a shoe in until it gets down to like $50, but if they don't want to use another green mythic slot for the 3rd time in a row and if we get a wish on a dragon scale we may get Goyf as a rare.
Now I don't know enough about past Legacy cards, but it does seem like they would be able to do a non Reserved List Legacy Masters, which is even stranger why something isn't done and where we could get needed reprints.
As much as I would like to say other wise Vintage is practically dead, of course the one thing that can save it is abolishing the Reserved List. Although with a Legacy Masters some more life could be put into it, but it wouldn't be much.
We are talking about Legacy, where foils and judge promos are sought after to upgrade decks and make them look flash. In a world with reprints, Alpha, Beta, Unlimited Duals would essentially be the premium editions of these cards. They will be sought after over all other printings, just as Betas and Alphas are sought after over Unlimited duals. This is what I mean by holding their high prices, despite what a reprints price ends up being. I could realistically see reprint duals at $40-50, while their unlimited counter parts still hovering in the $100-200 range. Beta and Alpha are unlikely to be effected at all due to sheer rarity and collectability. In fact, I would predict that Alpha and Beta editions would increase in price as the format grew.
This is what makes the reserve list a ridiculous farce at this point. Enforcing it is probably one of the only ways to actually significantly hurt the price of these cards in the long term through a deterioration of the competitive formats that feature them.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Quite a few actually,
Karakas
Rishadan Port
Force of Will
Wasteland
Berserk
Imperial Recruiter
Grim Tutor
Imperial Seal
Sneak Attack
Stoneforge Mystic
Jace, the Mindsculptor
Flusterstorm
Cabal Therapy
Daze
Counterspell
True Name Nemesis
Dack Fayden
Liliana of the Veil
Toxic Deluge
Show and Tell
Or any of the other cards that Modern and Legacy share or are banned in Modern and not in Legacy.
If they did it would certainly at least have a chance to do so.
I imagine it depends on the person to decide what they can afford and what they can't. They will still proxy to test, so they don't waste money at first, but when they find something that works they are more likely to buy if it is cheaper.
I imagine there is a chance if it died and people bought everything they could bring it back, but I highly doubt that would happen.
And yet you ignored the last portion of my last post, making a large reason why you got flagged for trolling. What I want is the game to do better, I don't care about me not affording the cards, because even if the cards got cut in half I probably still couldn't, but I would much rather have the entirety of the Magic community to be able to afford them. I want the game to do better, but that must be entitled to you as well.
You don't need Alpha duals in Commander because there are plenty of other choices and there isn't even a guarantee to get them when it is 1 out of 99 cards. Not to mention you not having an Alpha dual isn't the reason why you did poorly.
You can't be serious though about saying Shocks would work just as well in place of Alpha duals in Legacy/Vintage. Go ahead and try to run without the Alpha duals in a Legacy deck like Sultai or Esper and replace them with Shocks, because you will always be a turn behind or down life because you had to do it much more than the people with Alpha duals. If the Alpha duals didn't exist Shocks would be fine, but unfortunately Alpha duals are always better than them.
No one calls their kitchen table matches Legacy or Vintage, they only call them that when they are talking about a competitive deck made specifically for those formats.
And they see the error of doing this and know they need cheaper cards.
And they could do it even more.
You think it would be bad if they hit a lower price barrier? Yes, you are right no matter what someone out there may not be able to afford everything, or anything, but right now a vast majority are having issues with affording it, we should get it down to "some" people not being able to afford, not most.
Yes, that is right, but with even more complaints coming in that could mean more employees to handle it, costing WoTC more money in doing so, not to mention spending the time on taking out a stores status, which would happen more as well taking even more time to get things done and more employees.
How is asking you how you think removing the Reserved List would be bad off topic? This whole discussion has been based on that.
And people are not showing up because they can't afford the cards to go to the tournament. Do you not see the issue? More tournaments would not solve it, the cards need to be available enough to even be able to play. If they were more would want to go to tournaments, but because it is difficult to get them no one wants to go. Support is more than just tournaments.
Spirit of the reserved list is really just a legal thing, and likely came from their legal team after the first FTV. You have to remember, that the entire reserve list issue is now a legal issue. There's no way to know who would win a (potential) lawsuit, but that's what scares WOTC. At the end of the day, it will come down to what a reasonable non-Magic player thinks about whether WOTC promised anything and whether they broke that promise, and a jury may decide that breaking the spirit of the reserve list is breaking the promise.
Personally, I really don't care about the reserve list. I make enough money to buy a dual land every few months or so, and when I do buy a dual land, it feels good. I like the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it. That said, I certainly understand the other arguments, and it would be nice to actually play Lands in Legacy without having to wait another year to actually earn the money necessary for it. The main reason I want them to abolish the reserve list is that I want to see what happens with the lawsuit, if it happens. As a lawyer, it will be interesting to see the lawyer's arguments on both sides.
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If Legacy and Vintage were more played around here, I'd likely have more incentive to buy them, but without reprints, Legacy and Vintage aren't going to pick up anytime soon. I'll pick up te few duals I need in duplicate (Badlands and Savannah at the moment,) but buying them for a format nobody in my area plays, a format that has no tournaments in my area, doesn't seem worth it when for the same money I can pick up other EDH/Standard/Modern staples and actually get to PLAY them. Nobody in my area even ran proxy tournaments, and after this announcement, there's no way anyone ever will.
The Official Reprint policy is the entirety of their promise. I'd love to see anyone (other than MaRo) try to claim that the "spirit of the Reserve List" is an actual thing. Especially in any legal argument, when the policy has been in place for almost 2 decades, and has been unchanged since March 2010. If there were any objections to the official reprint policy, they should have been lodged almost 6 years ago, and trying to NOW state that the Policy is somehow not enough, that some unwritten "spirit" is needed, is pretty shaky logic.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
From the Vault is a better place for most of those cards. Or Modern Masters.
Thy did support it. It didn't make money. Now it gets less support.
Legacy and Vintage have sat well behind Standard, Extended, Modern, Limited, even things like 2HG Sealed for years. Even when it was cheaper to play than some of those formats (I'm looking at you, Extended.)
But I thought that if the cards were cheap, people would play?
No, that was because telling someone that they can make more money is mean and discouraging. Apparently.
How does the game do better if the game pieces become unnecessary?
Don't you see that this issue could continue no matter how low they got? That if open acceptance of proxies is allowed, there becomes less incentive for stores to sell cards. Why would Wizards, from a business perspective, encourage people to not use the things they sell. Let alone spend their own money to support those people.
Me too. It is why I support people's decisions to seek high paying employment.
I also want the game to do better. But you haven't proven how this would actually improve the game. Maybe your debate belongs in BaseSpec?
As there are in Legacy/ Vintage. Hell, Vintage has more options than Commander for lands.
There is no guarantee in any format of getting any specific card.
Not to mention you not having an Alpha dual isn't the reason why you did poorly.[/copypasta]
You cannot seriously be saying that optimizing and deck building are the same thing. I can almost understand feeling like you deserve to own a Legacy deck, even if it sounds entitled to me. But to say that you also deserve to play an optimized Legacy deck is blatant entitlement.
Build to your budget, or accept a Win/Loss ratio within your budget.
Hmmm... I wonder if it would be a bit on the nose for me to isolate this in a quote?
They are better in Commander too.
And for years nobody called Standard anything but Type 2. But it was still Standard.
And yet they keep the prices fixed on an upward trend... and they still sell out of those cards that go up in price...
Or less. Or the same amount. Possibilities are great.
I didn't say that, but yeah, kinda. If it was because of proxies at least (you know, the topic at hand...) Are you avoiding the question?
I mean, I am a bit too narcissistic to not do this one. No point this time. Just wanted to see it on my monitor.
A vast majority of players don't care about the price of cards, because a vast majority of players play nothing but casual games with the cards they have.
Welcome to Magic fandom, where a majority of the players complain about every aspect of the game.
This slope seems kinda slippery.
I thought we were talking about proxies in sanctioned tournaments, maybe some sort of WPN crackdown... Did I get lost on the forums?
They tell you this? The people who can fly across the country to play a game cannot afford Taigas?
I've been told I am not allowed to answer this. But if I did, it would be about personal responsibility more so than... whatever it is you're trying to claim.
Which cards needed to play Legacy/ Vintage are unobtainable?
Life is so hard.
I agree.
Letting something die, and feeling that it is good is not the same as feeling that they deserve to die. It is a Sophie's choice sort of situation. Except I never bet on human life.
I am indifferent towards the health of LGSs as well. They succeed and fail on their own accord.
Obviously the amount of people enjoying playing the format is no way a reflection of the amount of people enjoying playing the format. I should have just said popular.
Why do you think this is?
Nice to know what you know.
No
Just no.
So it is called something different, and the format does something different, and the deck styles, trends, and card pool sizes are all different.
Sure, tell me more about how they are the same format.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Commander.
Nobody loves Zombify.
You get formats mixed up a lot, don't you?
I don't doubt this, except it's such a flawed approach due to the platform.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I completely doubt that. It would be a terrible platform to use. They released Vintage Masters because they wanted a way to get P9 on MTGO. Simple as that.
Edit: Also, can you other two stop responding to each other. You're clearly not getting anywhere, and it's making the thread close to unreadable with your formatting. Just let it go.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Thousands of different cards see common play in Legacy. Of those 28 are resserved: 10 Dual Lands, 12 sideboard/rogue cards, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gaea's Cradle, City of Traitors and Intuition.
If you can't conceive a blockbuster 200 reprint card set that isn't Modern-legal without those 28 cards you don't know ***** about Legacy.
Why is it always the people who don't know ***** about Legacy trying to tell us we don't know what we want when we ask for this kind of very easy and very competent solutions?
There is ONE Modern-legal card in that list FFS.
Why do we reply to these people it's obvious their interests aren't with Eternal's sustained playability and they're either contrarians or sell expensive cardboard for a living.
None of those cards could be put into a set that could reasonably be sold to draft. There, updated for specificity.
Besides, even if they did release them, the only people who could afford reasonable amount of the product would be the same ones who can afford the singles. It wouldn't solve anything about the whining of poor people.
If the people who's interests are in the survival of the Eternal formats actually cared about the formats, they wouldn't be in any trouble.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Or... maybe... *smacks forehead* there is a little roadblock called the Reserve List, and it's not a matter of knowing ***** about/not knowing ***** about Legacy?
"Unfortunately", something that excludes the RL cards will have to do if this ever becomes a thing until/unless WotC weens off of it. I put the unfortunately in quotes because there is still a decent amount of non-RL stuff that sees play (and jank filler, as well as stuff that could be useful in commander, and just fun in casual play), isn't there?
I concur, we get nowhere by continuing to try to talk to someone unwilling to have reasonable conversation.
There are plenty of non Reserved List cards that a Legacy Masters could be doable, even with the jank. Honestly if they wanted they could also make it with Limited not in mind, so we don't have more jank filling up the set than need be, like how MM2 suffered because of this.
You'd do yourself a favour by reading the quotes you respond to. lol.
Of the 500 or so most played Legacy cards, only 33 are on the reserve list. You could do two Masters sets, not even print any filler, and still have some left over for another set.
Main problem with the barrier to entry is that the Duals are part of the Reserve List and generally make up the most substantial cost of many decks.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
But does anyone here actually think that if wizards printed checklist proxy cards, like they did for DFCs, with the names of reserved list cards, that this would violate the spirit of the reserved list? When one proxy can be marked to represented one of say 20 different legacy/vintage staples on it, and be used to represent that in your deck only in playtesting and proxy-allowed tournaments, would this be a violation of the reprint policy if it listed the power nine and dual lands, or other inaccessible legacy/vintage staples even if they weren't on the reserved list?
Wizards printing official proxies would keep legacy/vintage as accessible formats while not devaluing the reserved list cards or impinging on wizards IP like custom proxies in sanctioned events. So tell me, whats the problem with my proposal?
I'd certainly take the more nondescript proxies over nothing. For something like that to be worthwhile though, they would need to be coupled with a LGS level policy regarding their use in sanctioned low level events.
We already have rules enforcement levels when it comes to different scales of events. Why that cannot be referenced with regards to these types of proxies I do not understand.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The gold bordered versions were printed before the cards were on the RL. The last Gold bordered cards were printed in 2005 (of the 2004 champ decks).
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