I am reading through as I am bored. I could not find the replay button to reply to #157 by Hipster Mike.
But I do not think it is that hard to release more cards to support Vintage and Legacy. WOTC should just make those cards prizes.
Standard tournaments gets modern prizes, modern gets legacy, legacy gets vintage. Those that do not play a particular format can sell the cards. I personally think legacy should be an "earned" format anyways.
What is your reasoning on Legacy being an "earned" format?
Ultimately WoTC has only a few options. Either get rid of the reserved list and finally get rid of the worst decision they have ever made, ban all the cards on the reserved list for non-Commander constructed formats, or just straight kill Legacy and Vintage by just coming out and saying it finally, like they did Extended, which would still drop the prices of all of those cards because no one wants them for much of anything. No matter what something needs to be done, damn near anything would be better than the current situation at this point.
It is so strange to me that they will let these formats die off and let part of that money that people would pay to get just fly away because of some 20 year old semi-promise for people who didn't want to see their $20 cards lose value back then. They would easily make back any money they would lose from a suit, if they lost, from just selling Alpha duals in anything. They could reprint the entirety of the Homelands set and put them in and they would still make out like bandits.
Nothing worth obtaining is ever easy. I do not think anyone deserves to just buy into legacy. Its a format to me which is like an old boys club (loyalist that played from the very beginning) and those people should be recognized. All the players now do not really know the history, they like the game enough but did not support MTG when the media was labeling them as Satan worshipers, and/or call it nostalgia. So people who love magic as a game and loves legacy as a format should grind and try to win the legacy cards. I would love a mass reprint of legacy cards and make them modern prizes only. Send them out to hall of fame players etc.
If people love legacy enough but do not want to try and win the cards, well the trade off is paying the price of entry.
In fact wizards should announce a mass reprint of LEGACY PRIZES so ppl know its not off the table then announce the abolishment of the reserve list. That way the fear of further reprint is there, but due to it being prizes the price may not drop too much.
WoTC can make magic even more of a community. use the DCI stats and see which stores are holding regular sanctioned tournaments with consistent turnout and send them play sets of dual lands to be used as modern prizes to entice players to come.
Their are so many ideas to give everyone in magic what they want. WoTC just is not doing them. The general consensus is that they are trying to kill legacy/vintage, which could be true. But why are they trying to kill legacy/vintage, it makes no sense. The prize idea is a viable one, I bet players would jump at the chance to win dual lands.
To me, they are killing those formats because those formats don't jive with their current business model. Wizards makes money selling sealed product. Both formats use very few cards from current sealed product, and are overwhelmingly dominated by rare and out of print cards. Modern was literally invented to have a non rotating format that they could print into to try to supplement, and of course, make money.
Also, they have said repeatedly they are not doing anything with the Reserved list - it just is. So they can affect the Standard and Modern cardpool in more meaningful ways, and give controlled supplement through more sealed product releases. They haven't quite got this right due to supply and missing exactly what is needed by players, but it is a start. Unfortunately, it's a big game with a lot of moving parts, and they can't change print runs of cards on a whim for paper product demand, so it is going to be imperfect. But they're hands are just tied on paper product that could meaningfully supplement the Vintage and Legacy communities.
I am reading through as I am bored. I could not find the replay button to reply to #157 by Hipster Mike.
But I do not think it is that hard to release more cards to support Vintage and Legacy. WOTC should just make those cards prizes.
Standard tournaments gets modern prizes, modern gets legacy, legacy gets vintage. Those that do not play a particular format can sell the cards. I personally think legacy should be an "earned" format anyways.
What is your reasoning on Legacy being an "earned" format?
Ultimately WoTC has only a few options. Either get rid of the reserved list and finally get rid of the worst decision they have ever made, ban all the cards on the reserved list for non-Commander constructed formats, or just straight kill Legacy and Vintage by just coming out and saying it finally, like they did Extended, which would still drop the prices of all of those cards because no one wants them for much of anything. No matter what something needs to be done, damn near anything would be better than the current situation at this point.
It is so strange to me that they will let these formats die off and let part of that money that people would pay to get just fly away because of some 20 year old semi-promise for people who didn't want to see their $20 cards lose value back then. They would easily make back any money they would lose from a suit, if they lost, from just selling Alpha duals in anything. They could reprint the entirety of the Homelands set and put them in and they would still make out like bandits.
Nothing worth obtaining is ever easy. I do not think anyone deserves to just buy into legacy. Its a format to me which is like an old boys club (loyalist that played from the very beginning) and those people should be recognized. All the players now do not really know the history, they like the game enough but did not support MTG when the media was labeling them as Satan worshipers, and/or call it nostalgia. So people who love magic as a game and loves legacy as a format should grind and try to win the legacy cards. I would love a mass reprint of legacy cards and make them modern prizes only. Send them out to hall of fame players etc.
If people love legacy enough but do not want to try and win the cards, well the trade off is paying the price of entry.
In fact wizards should announce a mass reprint of LEGACY PRIZES so ppl know its not off the table then announce the abolishment of the reserve list. That way the fear of further reprint is there, but due to it being prizes the price may not drop too much.
WoTC can make magic even more of a community. use the DCI stats and see which stores are holding regular sanctioned tournaments with consistent turnout and send them play sets of dual lands to be used as modern prizes to entice players to come.
Their are so many ideas to give everyone in magic what they want. WoTC just is not doing them. The general consensus is that they are trying to kill legacy/vintage, which could be true. But why are they trying to kill legacy/vintage, it makes no sense. The prize idea is a viable one, I bet players would jump at the chance to win dual lands.
On one hand I do support reprints, on the other hand you can't have everything. Not everyone will be able to drive a buggati veyron, not everyone will be able to own a large house. Just because you want it doesn't mean the manufacturers should bring it down to a price that everybody can afford it. Legacy is kind of like that, it's more or less the highest and most exciting level of magic. Not everyone can play it just because they want to. I collected cards one by week, traded bits for bits here and there until I eventually amassed a decent collection of legacy cards. Some things you just have to work for. I had an allowance of about $10 a week up until I was 18, and only from that I have basically built a rather good collection at this point. Part of it was also store credit I got from grinding standard and knowing when to sell off the cards at the right time.
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none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Reprints are certainly the option that I'd welcome most in solving these problems, but I think we all know that's never going to happen. I think the best solution is simply for Wizards to ban the reserve list. They promised they'd never reprint said cards. They never promised to let people play them. Ban the reserve list in Legacy and Commander. The only cards I play that I'd regret the loss of in my list are Chains of Mephistopheles which I got by trading a bunch of unopened Battle for Zendikar product on release day, and The Abyss, which I got half in cash and half in BFZ product. Those cards took the biggest sacrifice to acquire, but if it'd make all future Commander decks easier to acquire, it's a loss I'm willing to accept.
I am reading through as I am bored. I could not find the replay button to reply to #157 by Hipster Mike.
But I do not think it is that hard to release more cards to support Vintage and Legacy. WOTC should just make those cards prizes.
Standard tournaments gets modern prizes, modern gets legacy, legacy gets vintage. Those that do not play a particular format can sell the cards. I personally think legacy should be an "earned" format anyways.
What is your reasoning on Legacy being an "earned" format?
Ultimately WoTC has only a few options. Either get rid of the reserved list and finally get rid of the worst decision they have ever made, ban all the cards on the reserved list for non-Commander constructed formats, or just straight kill Legacy and Vintage by just coming out and saying it finally, like they did Extended, which would still drop the prices of all of those cards because no one wants them for much of anything. No matter what something needs to be done, damn near anything would be better than the current situation at this point.
It is so strange to me that they will let these formats die off and let part of that money that people would pay to get just fly away because of some 20 year old semi-promise for people who didn't want to see their $20 cards lose value back then. They would easily make back any money they would lose from a suit, if they lost, from just selling Alpha duals in anything. They could reprint the entirety of the Homelands set and put them in and they would still make out like bandits.
Nothing worth obtaining is ever easy. I do not think anyone deserves to just buy into legacy. Its a format to me which is like an old boys club (loyalist that played from the very beginning) and those people should be recognized. All the players now do not really know the history, they like the game enough but did not support MTG when the media was labeling them as Satan worshipers, and/or call it nostalgia. So people who love magic as a game and loves legacy as a format should grind and try to win the legacy cards. I would love a mass reprint of legacy cards and make them modern prizes only. Send them out to hall of fame players etc.
If people love legacy enough but do not want to try and win the cards, well the trade off is paying the price of entry.
In fact wizards should announce a mass reprint of LEGACY PRIZES so ppl know its not off the table then announce the abolishment of the reserve list. That way the fear of further reprint is there, but due to it being prizes the price may not drop too much.
WoTC can make magic even more of a community. use the DCI stats and see which stores are holding regular sanctioned tournaments with consistent turnout and send them play sets of dual lands to be used as modern prizes to entice players to come.
Their are so many ideas to give everyone in magic what they want. WoTC just is not doing them. The general consensus is that they are trying to kill legacy/vintage, which could be true. But why are they trying to kill legacy/vintage, it makes no sense. The prize idea is a viable one, I bet players would jump at the chance to win dual lands.
On one hand I do support reprints, on the other hand you can't have everything. Not everyone will be able to drive a buggati veyron, not everyone will be able to own a large house. Just because you want it doesn't mean the manufacturers should bring it down to a price that everybody can afford it. Legacy is kind of like that, it's more or less the highest and most exciting level of magic. Not everyone can play it just because they want to. I collected cards one by week, traded bits for bits here and there until I eventually amassed a decent collection of legacy cards. Some things you just have to work for. I had an allowance of about $10 a week up until I was 18, and only from that I have basically built a rather good collection at this point. Part of it was also store credit I got from grinding standard and knowing when to sell off the cards at the right time.
The problem with this argument is that you don't need special roads that will disappear if no one has a Bugatti Veryon, whereas Legacy and Vintage decks are pretty pointless without opponents with Legacy/Vintage decks.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
My other big beef with wizards being aggressive about proxies regards their reprint policy. There is clearly a discrepancy between the demand of the product, and the amount of the product, as prices keep going up, sometimes even doubling literally overnight. I would not call that a healthy market. The increase of fakes/proxies is the market attempting to correct this. If wizards were more aggressive in reprints, I would totally agree with their stance. When they literally take years to reprint format staples though, FOR A FORMAT THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHING HARD, that seems really hard for me to swallow. I can hope that this an attempt to take away legacy players, so they will buy the legacy masters set, but I doubt it.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
My other big beef with wizards being aggressive about proxies regards their reprint policy. There is clearly a discrepancy between the demand of the product, and the amount of the product, as prices keep going up, sometimes even doubling literally overnight. I would not call that a healthy market. The increase of fakes/proxies is the market attempting to correct this. If wizards were more aggressive in reprints, I would totally agree with their stance. When they literally take years to reprint format staples though, FOR A FORMAT THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHING HARD, that seems really hard for me to swallow. I can hope that this an attempt to take away legacy players, so they will buy the legacy masters set, but I doubt it.
Where do you get the idea that they are pushing Modern hard? They tried to cut it from the PT rotation. They basically only care about Standard and Limited. The only reason Modern exists is because players wanted it, and the only reason the PT exists is because players wanted it. They will support it to a certain extent, but only as long as it makes money. If they reprint everything all at once and reprint it into oblivion, they will make a lot of short term money, but destroy the long term profits for the format. At that point, they will have 0 reason to support it anymore and they will just let it die like that have with Legacy and Vintage.
For people who are pro-"proxy" (whether under the new terminology you mean "playtest" or "counterfeit") in say, Modern or later, what is the cut off for a card that can be proxied? It's easy to point to Tabernacle and say, "Yeah, no one should need to pay $900 just to have one of these." What about Arcbound Ravager? Much cheaper, but it's from a set that didn't have as large a print, so hey, maybe under a modern day full printing the price would be a lot more reasonable, so proxy away. What about the new Gideon? $20 for a standard card?
There just doesn't seem to be any reasonable boundary to what people feel okay proxying. It really shares a lot of the same rhetoric with piracy of games/movies/shows. It starts with "Oh, the company isn't making money off this media anymore and why would I be it on the secondary market for THAT much?" to "How can you really trust that media is going to be good these days? There aren't very many reviews of this, so I'll try before buying." to "I just downloaded all of Game of Thrones, even though it's critically acclaimed and I know for a fact that I would enjoy it. It's easy to get legal access, but I don't feel like spending the money."
With the car example, there is some negotiated on price where if you don't agree, you just don't get the car. For some reason, we've decided that the game that we allegedly all love is a one-sided "Pay what you wish" plan.
See this isn't entirely true. I want to play Legacy so I bought the cards. The only event that I can realistically attend is a proxy legacy night that just got nixed because of this. Now if I want to play, I can show up on Sunday night and hope that 8 people show up to fire the event or I can drive 1+ hour south and play in an event that will end around midnight on a weekday so I can show up to work on 4 hours sleep. It doesn't matter that the two or three of us who do own the cards for several decks bring them to share, because people still wont show. So now I can just playtest with the same 3 people that I already do, or just give up and cash out? Seems perfectly reasonable for someone who bought in.
It seems unreasonable to me. You bought the cards, but you didn't make sure you had a use for them first. Seems like a foolish move.
Seriously, people are so whiny about this. Your budget is not some sort of genetic disorder. You have the ability to earn more. If you really do not, then you have the ability to set realistic expectations of yourself. You shouldn't play cards you cannot afford just because you like them, you shouldn't download illegal music just because you like it, you shouldn't steal my car just because you like it, and you shouldn't sneak into the movies just because you like it. Not being able to afford something does not entitle you to it.
He had the use for the cards he bought up until this change- he could play in proxy tournaments. Was it foolish of him not to anticipate this move that WotC made out of the blue, upending years of precedent?
Not only that, but he bought the product and this decision rendered him unable to use it. If he bought music legally and wasn't able to listen to it, or bought a car legally with his hard earned cash and couldn't drive it, or bought a movie ticket and couldn't watch it, he'd have a very legitimate complaint indeed.
But he can still play his deck. Buying a car does not entitle you to a drive way, or a license, or a life in a country with roads. Buying a CD does not entitle you to a stereo, or musical taste, or a backstage pass. Nobody is saying he cannot play other than himself. If he refuses to play casually that is his choice. I don't see why Wizards should support proxies anymore than the NFL should support deflated balls.
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
It's true.
Equally, however, if I stick a piece of paper on the side of my car that says 'Jaguar', Jaguar gives literally no ****s. They don't claim it is a counterfeit. I can drive my pretend Jaguar all day long and if it makes me happy then there is literally no loss to anyone.
Jaguar would care if you tried to replace the cars in their commercials or race events with your counterfeit.
My piece of paper is in no meaningful way a counterfeit. (Also I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care if I raced a car with that piece of paper).
Besides, we were talking about the use of what wizards calls playtest cards in unsanctioned events.
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
It's true.
Equally, however, if I stick a piece of paper on the side of my car that says 'Jaguar', Jaguar gives literally no ****s. They don't claim it is a counterfeit. I can drive my pretend Jaguar all day long and if it makes me happy then there is literally no loss to anyone.
Yes but if you entered your car into a car show they would sue for defamation/misrepresentation since you car isn't a Jaguar yet you are presenting it as such. That's the point most people are ignoring. You can drive your notJaguar around town or play with proxy cards to your hearts content as long as profit isn't involved.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I don't agree alot with jturphy in general but he's right on eternal formats.
They don't really support Modern, Legacy or Vintage. The fact that MM comes once in 2 years says it all.
You can literally put it in their mouths. "We support Modern once every 2 years."
But that statement only applies because there's no such thing as the reserved list for Modern, and they're "unfortunately obligated" to reprint them. If they had their way Standard, Block, and Limited will be the flagbearers of competitive Magic.
With the car example, there is some negotiated on price where if you don't agree, you just don't get the car. For some reason, we've decided that the game that we allegedly all love is a one-sided "Pay what you wish" plan.
The problem is that the game and the business model are at odds with one another. Magic the Gathering is a game about managing your library, your hand, your permanents and your health total. If there is a "Find A Scalper To Sell You A Playset Of Volcanic Islands For A Thousand Dollars" phase it does not improve the game. Giving the N existing owners of an out of print card a veto on whether or not you are allowed to build the deck you want to play violates the idea that this is a fair game, because it gives some players the authority to force other players to use a strictly worse alternative to the cards they are permitted to put into their own decks.
I don't agree alot with jturphy in general but he's right on eternal formats.
They don't really support Modern, Legacy or Vintage. The fact that MM comes once in 2 years says it all.
You can literally put it in their mouths. "We support Modern once every 2 years."
But that statement only applies because there's no such thing as the reserved list for Modern, and they're "unfortunately obligated" to reprint them. If they had their way Standard, Block, and Limited will be the flagbearers of competitive Magic.
Isn't Block more or less gone at this point? I don't remember seeing much about it for some time.
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
It's true.
Equally, however, if I stick a piece of paper on the side of my car that says 'Jaguar', Jaguar gives literally no ****s. They don't claim it is a counterfeit. I can drive my pretend Jaguar all day long and if it makes me happy then there is literally no loss to anyone.
Yes but if you entered your car into a car show they would sue for defamation/misrepresentation since you car isn't a Jaguar yet you are presenting it as such. That's the point most people are ignoring. You can drive your notJaguar around town or play with proxy cards to your hearts content as long as profit isn't involved.
No....I'm representing my car as a car with a piece of paper that says Jaguar. Everyone else in the car show is also pretending their cars are different better cars; it's a proxy-car show.
Everyone going in the car show I go in knows it's all rando cars and bits of paper.
If you (knowingly) play your fake-lotus in a tournament in which everyone else is playing real cards and playing real cards is a requirement, you are a cheat or worse. If everyone agrees that fake-lotus is ok and we'll mutually agree to pretend it is a real one, then NBD.
These stupid car and golf analogies need to stop because you aren't disallowed from driving your sports car or playing golf if no one else is able to afford it. The people most negatively affected by this are not little timmy who can't afford a Gideon or spike mcdork who doesn't want to shell out for Jace but still demands to have 4x in his top ***** tier 1 fnm grinder. The people most affected by this are people who have put a ridiculous ammount of money into the game to play the formats they love. If proxi tournaments dissapear almost all of the people who own vintage decks and most of the people who own legacy decks lose their ability to enjoy the format in a healthy competitive setting more than twice or thrice a year.
We already walk a very fine line on wether foil Dack Fayden and all the boosters that had to be bought from WotC to get him was an investment or a waste, and the only thing that keeps us in the "investment" side of the line is getting to play that ***** relatively often.
All WotC needs to do now that Elaine came out to fix Trip and Helene's little circus is act on it hand out a couple "proxi" (now explicitly calling them "playtesting") cards they already printed and placed in the World Championship Decks in any of their shelfwarmer products like intro decks or whatever, and get the **** out of our business before we end up creating an independent player ranking and TO community, and stop supporting the company for real.
I love the attitude of the pro proxy people. "I know what is good for you, Wizards, so let me use things that aren't your products in the tournaments that you spend money to support." It is ridiculous. How often can you pull things like that in other avenues of life. "Hey, Boss, I know we're supposed to be in at 9AM, but I don't get my best work done until 11AM, so in your best interest, I am not going to show up until 11. Also, still pay me." "Hey, I know you said not in a million years, but I think you would really enjoy a date with me, so huff this chloroform and get in my trunk." or even "Hey, I know you didn't ask for help, but I really think your Baghdad could use more bomb craters, so prepare to be America'd."
You may think you know what is best for their game, but they support the tournaments. Why you think you know better than them, but also think that $2000 is a lot of money baffles me. If your life is in a direction where $2000 is too much money, but you think you have time for an intensive hobby, your judgment is probably a bit skewed.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
I love the attitude of the pro proxy people. "I know what is good for you, Wizards, so let me use things that aren't your products in the tournaments that you spend money to support."
Except they don't support unsanctioned tournaments.
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
It's true.
Equally, however, if I stick a piece of paper on the side of my car that says 'Jaguar', Jaguar gives literally no ****s. They don't claim it is a counterfeit. I can drive my pretend Jaguar all day long and if it makes me happy then there is literally no loss to anyone.
Yes but if you entered your car into a car show they would sue for defamation/misrepresentation since you car isn't a Jaguar yet you are presenting it as such. That's the point most people are ignoring. You can drive your notJaguar around town or play with proxy cards to your hearts content as long as profit isn't involved.
No....I'm representing my car as a car with a piece of paper that says Jaguar. Everyone else in the car show is also pretending their cars are different better cars; it's a proxy-car show.
Everyone going in the car show I go in knows it's all rando cars and bits of paper.
If you (knowingly) play your fake-lotus in a tournament in which everyone else is playing real cards and playing real cards is a requirement, you are a cheat or worse. If everyone agrees that fake-lotus is ok and we'll mutually agree to pretend it is a real one, then NBD.
That would be a joke competition and be considered parody so it would be just fine. Let me put it this way....if you did own a Jaguar car and entered it in a car show/tournament for Jaguar only vehicles and two people show up with a Dodge Caravan & a Nissan Altima and not only are allowed to enter despite not having Jaguar vehicles but they actually end up in winning spots, you'd be pissed.
What wizards is that is if you don't have real cards your not going to get to earn planswalker points for playing. Otherwise its like letting people into the real NFL league just because they played Madden on PS4 alot.
Unsanctioned is lumped in there from a business angle. Allowing people to earn cards without actually owning them for the deck their playing means those people aren't going bother buying anymore product because they have an outlet that allows to get it for free.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
You may think you know what is best for their game, but they support the tournaments. Why you think you know better than them, but also think that $2000 is a lot of money baffles me. If your life is in a direction where $2000 is too much money, but you think you have time for an intensive hobby, your judgment is probably a bit skewed.
If $2000 isn't a lot of money, surely you won't mind writing me a check for that amount. I'll pm you with my contact info.
Reprints are certainly the option that I'd welcome most in solving these problems, but I think we all know that's never going to happen. I think the best solution is simply for Wizards to ban the reserve list. They promised they'd never reprint said cards. They never promised to let people play them. Ban the reserve list in Legacy and Commander. The only cards I play that I'd regret the loss of in my list are Chains of Mephistopheles which I got by trading a bunch of unopened Battle for Zendikar product on release day, and The Abyss, which I got half in cash and half in BFZ product. Those cards took the biggest sacrifice to acquire, but if it'd make all future Commander decks easier to acquire, it's a loss I'm willing to accept.
WotC is not in charge of the Commander ban list.
Right- I should've said as much in my post. I don't even think banning the reserve list will happen. Fortunately, I'm not too bothered by the status quot. I only play commander, and I've got what I need from the Blind Eternities of Magic's past already, at least for now.
I noticed, when I looked up the reserve list, that in 2002, some cards were taken off it. I think it was 2002 anyway - looked yesterday afternoon. But, whatever the year, there's precedent for a less monolithic reserve list. Maybe it'd be best to go through the list with a fine-tooth comb and see what really needs protecting. For example, I can see why P9 and cards like Chains of Mephistopheles or Moat have collectors demanding price protection, but there's a lot of inexpensive junk on the list too. Does it all need protection? Would an investor lose faith in his or her collection if Didgeridoo dropped from what, a low of 99 cents to a low of 45 cents? I mean, in the 2002 revision, Demonic Tutor was removed from the reserve list, and on the spectrum of cards too good to reprint, it's certainly much higher than Elvish Farmer, a harmless card that my Saproling fanatic of a friend, and maybe one other guy might be interested in.
Abolishing the reserved list can't happen. Wizards made it as a promise, thats its whole point, that collecters can be assured their cards won't be depreciated by further printings. And in reality, thats the main point of older cards now, theres no denying it- they are for collectors, not players. Whether they cost $200 or $2000, you can't reasonably expect people to play casual games with decks full of them like they could in standard. Even if most players want the reserved list gone, its a direct betrayal and undercuts wizards credibility and trust to the extreme if they did it, even the vague spectre of legal liability exists.
But at the same time, legacy & vintage are simply unplayable formats when nobody has reasonable access to the cards. Whether they cost $200 or $2000 a piece, they are priced far beyond the norm of players where standard is already considered prohibitive for many. And if legacy/vintage play is required to have the real cards, the formats are dead, you won't find enough players to sit down and play it. Wizards doesn't have anything to gain by axing the formats rather than letting them languish- unlike extended, it doesn't compete with any other format, so they can just become deader and deader until they're largely forgotten.
The obvious answer is proxies. Proxies enable these formats to actually be played, and thats how people have already been organizing them. Whether its full proxy tournaments, or card limits, or whatever. And rather than stifle their userbase, wizards should have embraced this. I'm 100% serious when I say they should simply print checklist cards like the DFC to be used as official proxies. Their intellectual property was never seriously threatened by basic lands with markers on them, and its a case of legal going hamfist, but why not just take control of it? Wizards took over the emergent EDH scene already. Just print a bunch of official proxies and make them widely available on the cheap through whatever distribution, and let players use them legally in legacy/vintage tournaments with whatever number of allowed proxies. This way they'd neither be reprinting reserved list cards nor letting players touch their IP in appropriate ways. Would that not fit, albeit rather loosely, their wording of "Wizards of the Coast may print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards."?
You may think you know what is best for their game, but they support the tournaments. Why you think you know better than them, but also think that $2000 is a lot of money baffles me. If your life is in a direction where $2000 is too much money, but you think you have time for an intensive hobby, your judgment is probably a bit skewed.
If $2000 isn't a lot of money, surely you won't mind writing me a check for that amount. I'll pm you with my contact info.
I have a pretty good paying engineering job and while 2000 can be done, it's not exactly cheap by any means.
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Nothing worth obtaining is ever easy. I do not think anyone deserves to just buy into legacy. Its a format to me which is like an old boys club (loyalist that played from the very beginning) and those people should be recognized. All the players now do not really know the history, they like the game enough but did not support MTG when the media was labeling them as Satan worshipers, and/or call it nostalgia. So people who love magic as a game and loves legacy as a format should grind and try to win the legacy cards. I would love a mass reprint of legacy cards and make them modern prizes only. Send them out to hall of fame players etc.
If people love legacy enough but do not want to try and win the cards, well the trade off is paying the price of entry.
In fact wizards should announce a mass reprint of LEGACY PRIZES so ppl know its not off the table then announce the abolishment of the reserve list. That way the fear of further reprint is there, but due to it being prizes the price may not drop too much.
WoTC can make magic even more of a community. use the DCI stats and see which stores are holding regular sanctioned tournaments with consistent turnout and send them play sets of dual lands to be used as modern prizes to entice players to come.
Their are so many ideas to give everyone in magic what they want. WoTC just is not doing them. The general consensus is that they are trying to kill legacy/vintage, which could be true. But why are they trying to kill legacy/vintage, it makes no sense. The prize idea is a viable one, I bet players would jump at the chance to win dual lands.
Also, they have said repeatedly they are not doing anything with the Reserved list - it just is. So they can affect the Standard and Modern cardpool in more meaningful ways, and give controlled supplement through more sealed product releases. They haven't quite got this right due to supply and missing exactly what is needed by players, but it is a start. Unfortunately, it's a big game with a lot of moving parts, and they can't change print runs of cards on a whim for paper product demand, so it is going to be imperfect. But they're hands are just tied on paper product that could meaningfully supplement the Vintage and Legacy communities.
On one hand I do support reprints, on the other hand you can't have everything. Not everyone will be able to drive a buggati veyron, not everyone will be able to own a large house. Just because you want it doesn't mean the manufacturers should bring it down to a price that everybody can afford it. Legacy is kind of like that, it's more or less the highest and most exciting level of magic. Not everyone can play it just because they want to. I collected cards one by week, traded bits for bits here and there until I eventually amassed a decent collection of legacy cards. Some things you just have to work for. I had an allowance of about $10 a week up until I was 18, and only from that I have basically built a rather good collection at this point. Part of it was also store credit I got from grinding standard and knowing when to sell off the cards at the right time.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
WotC is not in charge of the Commander ban list.
The problem with this argument is that you don't need special roads that will disappear if no one has a Bugatti Veryon, whereas Legacy and Vintage decks are pretty pointless without opponents with Legacy/Vintage decks.
But isnt the discussion about WPN, now its derailed into:
Player A: Everyone must play MtG my way.
Player B: No! You must realized I can play Mtg my way.
Words within a box isnt going to affect how you play Mtg. *faint*
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Where do you get the idea that they are pushing Modern hard? They tried to cut it from the PT rotation. They basically only care about Standard and Limited. The only reason Modern exists is because players wanted it, and the only reason the PT exists is because players wanted it. They will support it to a certain extent, but only as long as it makes money. If they reprint everything all at once and reprint it into oblivion, they will make a lot of short term money, but destroy the long term profits for the format. At that point, they will have 0 reason to support it anymore and they will just let it die like that have with Legacy and Vintage.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
There just doesn't seem to be any reasonable boundary to what people feel okay proxying. It really shares a lot of the same rhetoric with piracy of games/movies/shows. It starts with "Oh, the company isn't making money off this media anymore and why would I be it on the secondary market for THAT much?" to "How can you really trust that media is going to be good these days? There aren't very many reviews of this, so I'll try before buying." to "I just downloaded all of Game of Thrones, even though it's critically acclaimed and I know for a fact that I would enjoy it. It's easy to get legal access, but I don't feel like spending the money."
With the car example, there is some negotiated on price where if you don't agree, you just don't get the car. For some reason, we've decided that the game that we allegedly all love is a one-sided "Pay what you wish" plan.
My piece of paper is in no meaningful way a counterfeit. (Also I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care if I raced a car with that piece of paper).
Besides, we were talking about the use of what wizards calls playtest cards in unsanctioned events.
Yes but if you entered your car into a car show they would sue for defamation/misrepresentation since you car isn't a Jaguar yet you are presenting it as such. That's the point most people are ignoring. You can drive your notJaguar around town or play with proxy cards to your hearts content as long as profit isn't involved.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
They don't really support Modern, Legacy or Vintage. The fact that MM comes once in 2 years says it all.
You can literally put it in their mouths. "We support Modern once every 2 years."
But that statement only applies because there's no such thing as the reserved list for Modern, and they're "unfortunately obligated" to reprint them. If they had their way Standard, Block, and Limited will be the flagbearers of competitive Magic.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
The problem is that the game and the business model are at odds with one another. Magic the Gathering is a game about managing your library, your hand, your permanents and your health total. If there is a "Find A Scalper To Sell You A Playset Of Volcanic Islands For A Thousand Dollars" phase it does not improve the game. Giving the N existing owners of an out of print card a veto on whether or not you are allowed to build the deck you want to play violates the idea that this is a fair game, because it gives some players the authority to force other players to use a strictly worse alternative to the cards they are permitted to put into their own decks.
Isn't Block more or less gone at this point? I don't remember seeing much about it for some time.
No....I'm representing my car as a car with a piece of paper that says Jaguar. Everyone else in the car show is also pretending their cars are different better cars; it's a proxy-car show.
Everyone going in the car show I go in knows it's all rando cars and bits of paper.
If you (knowingly) play your fake-lotus in a tournament in which everyone else is playing real cards and playing real cards is a requirement, you are a cheat or worse. If everyone agrees that fake-lotus is ok and we'll mutually agree to pretend it is a real one, then NBD.
We already walk a very fine line on wether foil Dack Fayden and all the boosters that had to be bought from WotC to get him was an investment or a waste, and the only thing that keeps us in the "investment" side of the line is getting to play that ***** relatively often.
All WotC needs to do now that Elaine came out to fix Trip and Helene's little circus is act on it hand out a couple "proxi" (now explicitly calling them "playtesting") cards they already printed and placed in the World Championship Decks in any of their shelfwarmer products like intro decks or whatever, and get the **** out of our business before we end up creating an independent player ranking and TO community, and stop supporting the company for real.
You may think you know what is best for their game, but they support the tournaments. Why you think you know better than them, but also think that $2000 is a lot of money baffles me. If your life is in a direction where $2000 is too much money, but you think you have time for an intensive hobby, your judgment is probably a bit skewed.
Except they don't support unsanctioned tournaments.
That would be a joke competition and be considered parody so it would be just fine. Let me put it this way....if you did own a Jaguar car and entered it in a car show/tournament for Jaguar only vehicles and two people show up with a Dodge Caravan & a Nissan Altima and not only are allowed to enter despite not having Jaguar vehicles but they actually end up in winning spots, you'd be pissed.
What wizards is that is if you don't have real cards your not going to get to earn planswalker points for playing. Otherwise its like letting people into the real NFL league just because they played Madden on PS4 alot.
Unsanctioned is lumped in there from a business angle. Allowing people to earn cards without actually owning them for the deck their playing means those people aren't going bother buying anymore product because they have an outlet that allows to get it for free.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
If $2000 isn't a lot of money, surely you won't mind writing me a check for that amount. I'll pm you with my contact info.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Right- I should've said as much in my post. I don't even think banning the reserve list will happen. Fortunately, I'm not too bothered by the status quot. I only play commander, and I've got what I need from the Blind Eternities of Magic's past already, at least for now.
I noticed, when I looked up the reserve list, that in 2002, some cards were taken off it. I think it was 2002 anyway - looked yesterday afternoon. But, whatever the year, there's precedent for a less monolithic reserve list. Maybe it'd be best to go through the list with a fine-tooth comb and see what really needs protecting. For example, I can see why P9 and cards like Chains of Mephistopheles or Moat have collectors demanding price protection, but there's a lot of inexpensive junk on the list too. Does it all need protection? Would an investor lose faith in his or her collection if Didgeridoo dropped from what, a low of 99 cents to a low of 45 cents? I mean, in the 2002 revision, Demonic Tutor was removed from the reserve list, and on the spectrum of cards too good to reprint, it's certainly much higher than Elvish Farmer, a harmless card that my Saproling fanatic of a friend, and maybe one other guy might be interested in.
But at the same time, legacy & vintage are simply unplayable formats when nobody has reasonable access to the cards. Whether they cost $200 or $2000 a piece, they are priced far beyond the norm of players where standard is already considered prohibitive for many. And if legacy/vintage play is required to have the real cards, the formats are dead, you won't find enough players to sit down and play it. Wizards doesn't have anything to gain by axing the formats rather than letting them languish- unlike extended, it doesn't compete with any other format, so they can just become deader and deader until they're largely forgotten.
The obvious answer is proxies. Proxies enable these formats to actually be played, and thats how people have already been organizing them. Whether its full proxy tournaments, or card limits, or whatever. And rather than stifle their userbase, wizards should have embraced this. I'm 100% serious when I say they should simply print checklist cards like the DFC to be used as official proxies. Their intellectual property was never seriously threatened by basic lands with markers on them, and its a case of legal going hamfist, but why not just take control of it? Wizards took over the emergent EDH scene already. Just print a bunch of official proxies and make them widely available on the cheap through whatever distribution, and let players use them legally in legacy/vintage tournaments with whatever number of allowed proxies. This way they'd neither be reprinting reserved list cards nor letting players touch their IP in appropriate ways. Would that not fit, albeit rather loosely, their wording of "Wizards of the Coast may print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards."?
I have a pretty good paying engineering job and while 2000 can be done, it's not exactly cheap by any means.