PAPER vintage masters and NO reserve list and no 100$ mithycs would benefit the game. that's what we need honestly. wotc would make money even from vintage and legacy and not only standard
I OWN A ******* VINTAGE DECK.
Now the piss poor pieces of ***** running WotC have made sure that instead of playing once a month, I only get to play once a year at BOM.
They reduced my pool of possible opponents at a competitive level by the thousands after spending $20k on their ******* game, because they made a stupid promise to the kind of people who incentivized the creation of a certain mardu-colored political party a hundred years ago, but we are the ones who are being ludicrous?
You really need to shut the **** up because you don't know what they **** it is like to exist within the vintage community and how much WotC keeps ******* us over. Your stupid analogies don't mean *****. This isn't standard, nobody wants to proxi your stupid rhinos, but if tournaments are to ever fire, people NEED to proxi te power 9 because those cards literally do not exist in the quantities necessary for a healthy community to prosper.
While I don't think this tone is appropriate, I can appreciate the sentiment and I imagine it's a really frustrating situation to be in (it reminds me of my lonely Vampire: the Eternal Struggle cards sitting in torpor in hopes that some day there will be a vibrant community-based playgroup in my area).
You also make a crucial point above, about Vintage players who crack boxes to foil out decks with new cards when new synergies arise. So yeah, if I'm coming off as "all Vintage players just want to play for free," I apologize. I think players chasing things like a foil Dack Fayden contributes to the ecosystem in a positive way.
But that's not the only subgroup in question when you're talking about an umbrella policy for proxies. People are talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments. I don't think that's appropriate. A reasonable person could disagree. Once you start letting proxies in at WPN-affiliated stores, where do you draw the line? Wizards has to decide something, so while I can see why you're angry about this issue, I can also see why they ruled in the way they did.
Now, you state the problem perfectly when you point out that Vintage has a huge problem in the sense that the extremely limited supply of Power 9 cards is not sufficient to sustain a healthy competitive community. This I feel is an organic problem based on the fact that MtG is a collectible card game and not because Wizards, or any subgroup of its customers, is doing anything incompetent or malicious. It's a problem inherent to CCGs. There aren't a lot of traditional CCGs left. I suspect this is the exact reason.
So, yeah. It sucks. A lot. I can't imagine how much, because I sold the couple pieces of Power 9 I had a long long time ago and never had a competitive Vintage deck to speak of. Aren't there other options, though, besides playing unsanctioned proxy tournaments at stores? The same league could be moved to people's houses just like any poker game could. You could liquidize and move online (yeah, not a very satisfying option, but it's there). Or lend decks to opponents (obviously you'd need a large threshold of trust to let anybody new into your playgroup, but it's an option). None of these options are what you want, obviously, but I don't see how Wizards being clearer and stricter about a standing policy is the nail in the coffin, or make the situation any worse than the simple rules of supply and demand already did.
Keep it civil. If again this proves to be impossible, this thread will get locked down.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I OWN A ******* VINTAGE DECK.
Now the piss poor pieces of ***** running WotC have made sure that instead of playing once a month, I only get to play once a year at BOM.
They reduced my pool of possible opponents at a competitive level by the thousands after spending $20k on their ******* game, because they made a stupid promise to the kind of people who incentivized the creation of a certain mardu-colored political party a hundred years ago, but we are the ones who are being ludicrous?
You really need to shut the **** up because you don't know what they **** it is like to exist within the vintage community and how much WotC keeps ******* us over. Your stupid analogies don't mean *****. This isn't standard, nobody wants to proxi your stupid rhinos, but if tournaments are to ever fire, people NEED to proxi te power 9 because those cards literally do not exist in the quantities necessary for a healthy community to prosper.
While I don't think this tone is appropriate, I can appreciate the sentiment and I imagine it's a really frustrating situation to be in (it reminds me of my lonely Vampire: the Eternal Struggle cards sitting in torpor in hopes that some day there will be a vibrant community-based playgroup in my area).
You also make a crucial point above, about Vintage players who crack boxes to foil out decks with new cards when new synergies arise. So yeah, if I'm coming off as "all Vintage players just want to play for free," I apologize. I think players chasing things like a foil Dack Fayden contributes to the ecosystem in a positive way.
But that's not the only subgroup in question when you're talking about an umbrella policy for proxies. People are talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments. I don't think that's appropriate. A reasonable person could disagree. Once you start letting proxies in at WPN-affiliated stores, where do you draw the line? Wizards has to decide something, so while I can see why you're angry about this issue, I can also see why they ruled in the way they did.
Now, you state the problem perfectly when you point out that Vintage has a huge problem in the sense that the extremely limited supply of Power 9 cards is not sufficient to sustain a healthy competitive community. This I feel is an organic problem based on the fact that MtG is a collectible card game and not because Wizards, or any subgroup of its customers, is doing anything incompetent or malicious. It's a problem inherent to CCGs. There aren't a lot of traditional CCGs left. I suspect this is the exact reason.
So, yeah. It sucks. A lot. I can't imagine how much, because I sold the couple pieces of Power 9 I had a long long time ago and never had a competitive Vintage deck to speak of. Aren't there other options, though, besides playing unsanctioned proxy tournaments at stores? The same league could be moved to people's houses just like any poker game could. You could liquidize and move online (yeah, not a very satisfying option, but it's there). Or lend decks to opponents (obviously you'd need a large threshold of trust to let anybody new into your playgroup, but it's an option). None of these options are what you want, obviously, but I don't see how Wizards being clearer and stricter about a standing policy is the nail in the coffin, or make the situation any worse than the simple rules of supply and demand already did.
Why not have a full proxy modern tournament at a WPN affiliate store. I am assuming that the store still runs Sanctioned tournaments (proxys are not allowed). It should be up to the store they can decide if they make money by running the tournament.
I'm all for reprints, but honestly, the sail for Legacy/Vintage reprints has long passed.
If Wizards wanted to do so, I would say it should be done about a decade ago. Back then, finance articles were almost nonexistent. Speculation and hoarding? It was called collection. So you could play the formats you want, and be ready to play a GP or PT near you.
These "finance writers" are selling a dream, that Magic is a profiteering business first, a game second. It used to be a subculture, like how EDH and the like were just basement, kitchen table formats. Now the behavior is ingrained into our consciousness. Open a goyf? Today you think of money/valuation first. Before that the mindset was "yes! I can put this in my Atog-lookalike deck!"
In an ideal world where the reserved list would be abolished, and we get those reprints, there has to be alot of requirements.
I'll provide some hard-hitting requirements:
-larger than normal print run of sets and supplementary products
-no mythic rarity
-foils in every booster
-full art lands in each booster
-banning of finance articles
-online card/product purchases restricted to 4 (of the same card or product) per day; basically a playset rule
-continuation of promos via prerelease, FNMs, player rewards, judge programs
There's more, and only if these factors exist can we have a product like Vintage/Legacy Masters. If not, it's a pipe dream.
But that's not the only subgroup in question when you're talking about an umbrella policy for proxies. People are talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments. I don't think that's appropriate. A reasonable person could disagree. Once you start letting proxies in at WPN-affiliated stores, where do you draw the line? Wizards has to decide something, so while I can see why you're angry about this issue, I can also see why they ruled in the way they did.
Now, you state the problem perfectly when you point out that Vintage has a huge problem in the sense that the extremely limited supply of Power 9 cards is not sufficient to sustain a healthy competitive community. This I feel is an organic problem based on the fact that MtG is a collectible card game and not because Wizards, or any subgroup of its customers, is doing anything incompetent or malicious. It's a problem inherent to CCGs. There aren't a lot of traditional CCGs left. I suspect this is the exact reason.
I think the number of people "talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments" are very very few in number. Most people I know who support proxies only support proxies of extremely expensive cards that are essential to play the game and stand a chance versus the average deck in said format. Aside from investors I don't think having essential cards at the $100+ range per card (this price point may be different for different people (my personal highest price point is around $50CAD)) is beneficial for the game or players as it creates an extremely high barrier to entry, stifles the metagame, fuels professional counterfeiters (which could really affect the viability of Magic as a CCG), makes Magic appear like a game only for the 1%, and makes Magic pay-to-stand-a-chance if you want to play in a format with reasonable counterspells, land destruction, combos, and other degenerate things.
WOTC could do many things to solve this issue:
-Allow a specific number of proxies.
-Allow proxies of reserve list cards only.
-Allow proxies of cards that hit a specific price ceiling (WOTC is like a government in that they could cap the market).
-Reasonably reprint staples.
-Ban reserve list cards.
-Implement a policy where cards will be reprint (with new art and style so they are different from the originals) if they hit a certain price point and make this policy clear so investors and players are aware.
-Do nothing, anger their player base and provide further incentive for professional counterfeiters to produce counterfeits indistinguishable from the originals.
You may counter that none of those are good options, but I would counter than doing nothing is essentially doing something and as WOTC is a business a good goal for them would be to choose an option that provides profit to them (because that is chiefly what businesses do in our capitalist loving society) and makes players (i.e. their customers) happy. Many of the above options could meet that goal. Allowing a specific number of proxies in stores still has players buying cards, sleeves, snacks, encourages other customers to frequent the store as they have people to play with and provides WOTC and LGSs with good PR. However, this may still provide incentive for professional counterfeiters. Reasonably reprinting staples would provide income for WOTC, while making many players happy and likely do the most to slow professional counterfeiters. Those are just some pros and cons and you can think more about the others, which I hope WOTC is also doing now too.
Also, I find it fascinating how the MtG economy mirrors the larger economy that features gross and sickening growing inequality. In addition to low supply for some cards I think part of the reason Magic cards in all formats are reaching such high prices is the 1% have too much disposable income while average wage increases for everyone else (measured to inflation) has been virtually zero since the 1970s or so. Similar to how the rich are inflating the price of real estate in world cities (e.g. Vancouver, San Francisco, London, New York, etc.) (seen as a safe place to park one's money), I think the same is happening with Magic cards (seen by some as purely an investment).
Reprints are certainly the option that I'd welcome most in solving these problems, but I think we all know that's never going to happen. I think the best solution is simply for Wizards to ban the reserve list. They promised they'd never reprint said cards. They never promised to let people play them. Ban the reserve list in Legacy and Commander. The only cards I play that I'd regret the loss of in my list are Chains of Mephistopheles which I got by trading a bunch of unopened Battle for Zendikar product on release day, and The Abyss, which I got half in cash and half in BFZ product. Those cards took the biggest sacrifice to acquire, but if it'd make all future Commander decks easier to acquire, it's a loss I'm willing to accept.
I own *several* Legacy decks (it's really not much more than two), but the cards in all my decks have zero overlap. AKA: I do have the cards for two Underground Sea decks, but I can only have ONE of said decks constructed at any time due to each one requiring an amount of duals I do not possess the sum of. The only decks I can even have constructed alongside a third are Manaless Dredge and Affinity (if you even acknowledge that as a Legacy deck). People having multiple Legacy decks which they can (and do) lend out does not ALWAYS mean that they are promoting the problem at hand of card scarcity.
As for the self-entitlement issue, it's honestly a two-way street. On one end, we see self-entitlement on those who feel that every format should be readily accessible to players who haven't been investing in the game for a decade; on the other, we see individuals who have managed to obtain their cards through whatever reason, and believe the value of their cards should be preserved as a result of their dedication and effort put into their collections.
Personally, however, I find it easier to sympathize with those who wish for the formats to be more accessible. I love Magic as a game, and I feel that Legacy is a format that exemplifies and defines Magic history, and to be a format of passion, interest, and understanding of the finer aspects of the game. For this reason, I find the format to be my favorite by far, as well as the format I try explaining to friends of mine as they start to learn to core concepts of Magic as a game. I want more players to own these cards. I think more players deserve to experience the awesome and fulfilling game that is represented by the Eternal formats.
For those, on the other hand, who feel this privilege should be exclusive to those who happened to "luck out" by being introduced into the game early....I say shame on you. If you truly loved the game, loved your cards, and loved the format you claim to care about so much as a whole, you would relinquish the majority of your cards' monetary value in favor of appreciating their true value: the ability to play with them, and the value they possess within their respective formats.
Many people have said it, and I will reiterate once more: Magic is a game. It's a hobby. It's not an investment. If you say the game was meant just as much for collectors and it was players, then I will listen to you once "MTG collector's conventions" are held as often as Open events and GPs.
Reprints are certainly the option that I'd welcome most in solving these problems, but I think we all know that's never going to happen. I think the best solution is simply for Wizards to ban the reserve list. They promised they'd never reprint said cards. They never promised to let people play them. Ban the reserve list in Legacy and Commander. The only cards I play that I'd regret the loss of in my list are Chains of Mephistopheles which I got by trading a bunch of unopened Battle for Zendikar product on release day, and The Abyss, which I got half in cash and half in BFZ product. Those cards took the biggest sacrifice to acquire, but if it'd make all future Commander decks easier to acquire, it's a loss I'm willing to accept.
Personally I don't want them to ban the reserve list (at least in Commander, I love Volrath's Stronghold), but I also don't think banning the reserve list would work very well as many would likely still want to play with those cards and I think it is reasonable to believe banning the reserve list would hurt the market for those cards more than reprints or allowing proxies would. Banning the reserve list also leaves it reasonably possible a new format would be created as opposed to stopping legacy, vintage and counterfeiters. Maybe I just think about promises differently, but if an elected leader made a promise to voters that ended up leading to undesirable and poor consequences for a majority of people, I think it is unreasonable to hold said elected leader to keeping said promise come hell or high water. People should make reasonable decisions that take everything into account. A promise counts for something, but a hasty promise made in response to backlash seems a tenuous promise to me.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Reprints are certainly the option that I'd welcome most in solving these problems, but I think we all know that's never going to happen. I think the best solution is simply for Wizards to ban the reserve list.
Interesting idea. Surprised I haven't heard it thrown out before.
How many staples in legacy/vintage are actually not on the reserve list, versus on? Would there be enough that, combined with the still-decent, and utter jank, could allow for a non-RL-infringing legacy/vintage masters style deal?
My guess is that Wizards, as a business, cares more about people using proxies in Modern (and standard, I guess, if that's a thing that happens anywhere) because that does take money out of their pocket since they are still printing cards for those formats. People aren't gonna crack boxes in hopes of pulling that $80 Jace (or whatever he costs now)or a Goyf if they can just proxy it.
People using proxies in Legacy or Vintage doesn't actually hurt their bottom line at all. However, I imagine that the same people who would be royally pissed about Wizards abolishing the reserve list would also be pissed if Wizards was okay with anyone and everyone using proxies of those cards. Their power level is certainly a large part of their value, after all, and that matters to collectors. Now, I don't claim to know who these people are as they don't seem to speak out much on forums like this, but Wizards seems pretty adamant that those people exist and that there are quite a few of them (I wouldn't be at all surprised if several of them had large stakes in Wizards/Hasbro). Enough so that they're afraid of pissing them off. I would imagine that this policy is more to protect the interest of those people than anything else.
I think a good compromise would be allowing a specific number of proxies in Vintage and Legacy events. Keeping them banned outright in Modern and Standard protects Wizards interests, and only allowing a handful of proxies in the older formats should be enough to keep some of the players happy while not royally pissing investors/collectors off. I think specifying specific cards that are/aren't allowed to be proxies (like just saying you can only proxy P9 or something along those lines) is a good idea, though. It would likely piss off collectors with those cards as well as lower their price on the secondary market and/or increase the price of all other cards in the format. I don't think I could ever imagine Wizards being officially okay with full-proxy decks in any format, though. Nor do I really think they should be.
I'm not rich. I can only afford a few cards per paycheck. A $700 deck is an entire month of work for me. By your standards, I shouldn't even be playing. A modern deck is a year or more of investment. A legacy deck is longer still. None of my standard cards already owned further either goal. Guess I won't get to play Magic until 2018.
Magic is choking its lifeblood out on two fronts; expensive standard with a quickening expiration date, and slow decay of eternal via difficult or expensive to get cards. The attitude of "pay to win or don't bother" is accelerating the process.
This may come as a shock, but Magic is not only about playing with expensive cards. if you NEED expensive cards to play and have fun, you aren't doing it right. I run a casual group that regularly has 30 people showing up to play casual magic. The people aren't there to win, they are there to have fun. So if you need 700$ worth of cards to have fun, then yes, you shouldn't be playing.
-larger than normal print run of sets and supplementary products
-no mythic rarity
-foils in every booster
-full art lands in each booster
-banning of finance articles
-online card/product purchases restricted to 4 (of the same card or product) per day; basically a playset rule
-continuation of promos via prerelease, FNMs, player rewards, judge programs
There's more, and only if these factors exist can we have a product like Vintage/Legacy Masters. If not, it's a pipe dream.
I don't understand these "requirements".
larger than normal print run of sets and supplementary products - This is the one obvious requirement but why is it a problem? The money Wizards would make off of a Legacy/Vintage reprint set would pay for the printing of the next ten magic sets. It's not like they would possibly lose money by printing to demand. Sure, there would be shortages at first and stores would try to price gouge, but if Wizards made it clear that they were going to print to demand and told people not to freak out and just be patient if they couldn't get their hands on initial supply because there would be plenty more coming, then I think things would be fine.
no mythic rarity - I'm no fan of mythic rarity, but why not?
foils in every booster - While this would be a good thing to do, why would it be required? I'm not a fan of the "foil in every pack" gimmick because it gives Wizards an excuse to try to sell packs for $10.
full art lands in each booster - Why would this be required? Full art lands aren't necessary for deck building in Legacy/Vintage. They would be a great bonus but I think just reprinting some RL stuff alongside other old Vintage/Legacy era playables would be enough.
banning of finance articles - Why? That's obviously something that is not feasible in the least. Even if Wizards could somehow ban the posting of MTG-related finance articles online, it wouldn't stop people from trying to profit off the set.
online card/product purchases restricted to 4 (of the same card or product) per day; basically a playset rule - Another requirement that would never be feasible. If Wizards printed to demand supply would eventually meet the demand and there wouldn't be issues. Just look at the Commander 2014 deck that had True-name Nemesis in it. At first that deck was impossible to find because of TNN and other cards making it worth more than double the retail cost. TNN was $40 and paid for the entire deck by itself. It was also in high demand so it was easy to move it and actually profit from buying the deck and reselling singles. But Wizards re-supplied after the initial sellouts, people got their playset of TNN and demand began to dwindle. I saw the decks sitting around at Walmart for quite some time, unsold. Now TNN is a $14 card. Same thing happened with the Karador deck and Scavenging Ooze. It was $40 for a long time, but then it was reprinted and promo'd and it became a sub $5 card for most of it's Standard duration.
continuation of promos via prerelease, FNMs, player rewards, judge programs - Why would this not happen? We've had two Modern Masters sets now, but we still get modern staples as FNM promos and I'm sure we've gotten some as judge promos too. I don't see how Legacy/Vintage masters would have any effect on prerelease promos since those are always Standard cards and we're probably not going to be seeing any Legacy/Vintage reprints in Standard anytime soon with the way things are going now.
My requirements would have to be:
-Make the set available to the masses and make it affordable. No "super limited print run BUY NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE" BS. No "Card shop only, no big box retailer" BS. No "Your store only gets 4 boxes and the boxes only have 24 packs and cost $200+" BS. No "$10+ booster packs oh by the way they're mostly .50 rares" BS.
-Don't blow the wad in one go. Aka don't put all the power 9, all 10 duals, Force of Wills and every other RL desirable all in one set. Spread it out. Mix it up with Reserved List EDH playables like Volrath's Stronghold and Serra's Sanctum. Maybe throw in some cards like Demonic Tutor and Vindicate. Cards that would be awesome to reprint but are too strong for Standard/Modern and considered a little too good/too valuable for reprint in Duel Decks/Commander precons.
-Give people a good heads up. Not that I have a ton of sympathy for people who think their collections and decks should only ever increase in value and that people who weren't fortunate enough to play when cards were affordable don't deserve to be able to play with those cards, but it would be classy of Wizards to give a warning far in advance to give people who want to the opportunity to try to cash out.
I'm not rich. I can only afford a few cards per paycheck. A $700 deck is an entire month of work for me. By your standards, I shouldn't even be playing. A modern deck is a year or more of investment. A legacy deck is longer still. None of my standard cards already owned further either goal. Guess I won't get to play Magic until 2018.
Magic is choking its lifeblood out on two fronts; expensive standard with a quickening expiration date, and slow decay of eternal via difficult or expensive to get cards. The attitude of "pay to win or don't bother" is accelerating the process.
This may come as a shock, but Magic is not only about playing with expensive cards. if you NEED expensive cards to play and have fun, you aren't doing it right. I run a casual group that regularly has 30 people showing up to play casual magic. The people aren't there to win, they are there to have fun. So if you need 700$ worth of cards to have fun, then yes, you shouldn't be playing.
if i want to have fun playng vintage or legacy then yes it is expensive and i need the expensive cards in order to play eternal
Essentially, they're saying you have to use all real cards in anything that gets submitted through the Wizard's Event Reporter. They have no problems with scribbling on a plains to try out an idea, so long as it's not a WER event. Counterfeit cards aren't tolerated under any circumstances. That's what I got out of it. Don't report the event to Wizards, and make sure your proxies aren't actually counterfeit cards, and you should be cool.
Wizards has defined a new category of card as "playtest cards". Playtest cards are unofficial cards that are not suitable for use in DCI-sanctioned events. They do not have official art and are immediately distinguishable to the real thing. Playtest cards are used to test new decks.
Of course, this description is kind of flawed, as everyone uses the proxy function on magiccards.info to make playtest cards, which include the art. It seems like Wizards considers use of this function to be counterfeiting.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I'm all for reprints, but honestly, the sail for Legacy/Vintage reprints has long passed.
If Wizards wanted to do so, I would say it should be done about a decade ago. Back then, finance articles were almost nonexistent. Speculation and hoarding? It was called collection. So you could play the formats you want, and be ready to play a GP or PT near you.
These "finance writers" are selling a dream, that Magic is a profiteering business first, a game second. It used to be a subculture, like how EDH and the like were just basement, kitchen table formats. Now the behavior is ingrained into our consciousness. Open a goyf? Today you think of money/valuation first. Before that the mindset was "yes! I can put this in my Atog-lookalike deck!"
I think that has more to do with the fact that Tarmogoyf is now a more relevant card than it was at first. Yes, of course when I open a pack of Modern Masters I'm thinking of the market value of its most expensive card... because I'm paying real money for a random quantity and I want to be able to prevent throwing money out the window. If I want an Atog-lookalike I can just buy it as a single, whether I'm a competitive player or a casual player. I, for one, appreciate the finance articles because they allow players to make their money go further and participate more in the game they love. So, when I open a goyf I'm not looking at the picture but I'm not thinking about "profit" as such - I'm thinking "someone probably wants this, and with the amount they'd trade for it I could finish my Tron deck."
I think the number of people "talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments" are very very few in number. Most people I know who support proxies only support proxies of extremely expensive cards that are essential to play the game and stand a chance versus the average deck in said format.
That's fair. There's a bit of slippery slope on my part when I say "start allowing proxies, then what?" But I also think the number of people who are concerned about competitive Vintage/Legacy play is too small to be on Wizards' radar. I imagine the majority of players that they aim their printing/marketing decisions towards are unaware of what a Mox Sapphire is or why it's important. Not that it doesn't suck for the people who do care, but I don't see why they have any incentive to take any action, even if you could argue away the short-term risk for long-term benefits.
WOTC could do many things to solve this issue:
-Allow a specific number of proxies.
-Allow proxies of reserve list cards only.
-Allow proxies of cards that hit a specific price ceiling (WOTC is like a government in that they could cap the market).
-Reasonably reprint staples.
-Ban reserve list cards.
-Implement a policy where cards will be reprint (with new art and style so they are different from the originals) if they hit a certain price point and make this policy clear so investors and players are aware.
-Do nothing, anger their player base and provide further incentive for professional counterfeiters to produce counterfeits indistinguishable from the originals.
A lot of these make good sense and seem like good compromises. I think the last one is a little besides the point; counterfeiters are responsible for their own immoral behavior, and the best response to their actions is to catch and prosecute those people, not to employ some sort of management strategy designed to make scams unprofitable. But that's a tangent; all of these things are reasonable compromises that should probably be on the table. I wouldn't object to any of them (not that I object to Legacy-with-proxies as a practice in the first place, I just don't think you can be surprised when Wizards decides to crack down).
Also, I find it fascinating how the MtG economy mirrors the larger economy that features gross and sickening growing inequality. In addition to low supply for some cards I think part of the reason Magic cards in all formats are reaching such high prices is the 1% have too much disposable income while average wage increases for everyone else (measured to inflation) has been virtually zero since the 1970s or so. Similar to how the rich are inflating the price of real estate in world cities (e.g. Vancouver, San Francisco, London, New York, etc.) (seen as a safe place to park one's money), I think the same is happening with Magic cards (seen by some as purely an investment).
Come now, let's keep a sense of perspective. The problem of homelessness in San Fransisco involves people actually suffering in very physical ways. There's no parallel in not being able to build the deck you want for a competitive gaming event. There can arguably be identifiable "classes" in Constructed Magic, but to characterize it as "sickening growing inequality" represents the kind of hyperbole that keeps us talking past each other. At the end of the day, Magic is a hobby that costs money; it is profitable for both the manufacturers and the people who allow us to play at their stores because they charge us money. Otherwise they couldn't hire designers and artists or pay the rent for their shop. Balancing your hobbies with your other hobbies and your material needs is simply part of adult life. If you want a bigger and more competitive Magic collection, you can go a long way by not buying beer or pizza or video games or going to concerts or whatever. This isn't necessarily fun but it's just part of life. The cry of "I shouldn't have to cut other recreation costs to play more Magic!" is reasonably met with "why? What makes you special?" That's why people keep bringing up entitlement. Access to a specific format in a collectible card game is not a basic right and has nothing to do with basic material needs (the lack of which among many people across the world rightly should cause moral outrage); treating it as if it is clouds the issue with a bunch of overwrought reactions and pointing fingers about who are the haves and who are the have-nots. It's just out of proportion to the problem at hand.
Of course, this description is kind of flawed, as everyone uses the proxy function on magiccards.info to make playtest cards, which include the art.
Disagree, most people I know use the Sharpie-on-card method for playtesting.
And yes, printed proxies using MTG illustration are copyright infringement. Note that MTGSalvation rules do not allow for the promotion of such proxies:
Also, I find it fascinating how the MtG economy mirrors the larger economy that features gross and sickening growing inequality. In addition to low supply for some cards I think part of the reason Magic cards in all formats are reaching such high prices is the 1% have too much disposable income while average wage increases for everyone else (measured to inflation) has been virtually zero since the 1970s or so. Similar to how the rich are inflating the price of real estate in world cities (e.g. Vancouver, San Francisco, London, New York, etc.) (seen as a safe place to park one's money), I think the same is happening with Magic cards (seen by some as purely an investment).
Come now, let's keep a sense of perspective. The problem of homelessness in San Fransisco involves people actually suffering in very physical ways. There's no parallel in not being able to build the deck you want for a competitive gaming event. There can arguably be identifiable "classes" in Constructed Magic, but to characterize it as "sickening growing inequality" represents the kind of hyperbole that keeps us talking past each other. At the end of the day, Magic is a hobby that costs money; it is profitable for both the manufacturers and the people who allow us to play at their stores because they charge us money. Otherwise they couldn't hire designers and artists or pay the rent for their shop. Balancing your hobbies with your other hobbies and your material needs is simply part of adult life. If you want a bigger and more competitive Magic collection, you can go a long way by not buying beer or pizza or video games or go to concerts or whatever. This isn't necessarily fun but it's just part of life. The cry of "I shouldn't have to cut other recreation costs to play more Magic!" is reasonably met with "why? What makes you special?" That's why people keep bringing up entitlement. Access to a specific format in a collectible card game is not a basic right and has nothing to do with basic material needs (the lack of which among many people across the world rightly should cause moral outrage); treating it as if it is clouds the issue with a bunch of overwrought reactions and pointing fingers about who are the haves and who are the have-nots. It's just out of proportion to the problem at hand.
I think you should reread what I wrote. My use of the phrase "sickening growing inequality" was used to refer to the "larger economy" as explicitly stated in my post. The mirroring part is disposable income by the very rich used to inflate assets seen as safe places to park money. I also underlined the term "part" for good reason and started my paragraph with "Also, I find it fascinating" to suggest I was simply sharing a simple thought and not posting a solid argument.
Private Mod Note
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
WOTC could do many things to solve this issue:
-Allow a specific number of proxies.
-Allow proxies of reserve list cards only.
-Allow proxies of cards that hit a specific price ceiling (WOTC is like a government in that they could cap the market).
-Reasonably reprint staples.
-Ban reserve list cards.
-Implement a policy where cards will be reprint (with new art and style so they are different from the originals) if they hit a certain price point and make this policy clear so investors and players are aware.
-Do nothing, anger their player base and provide further incentive for professional counterfeiters to produce counterfeits indistinguishable from the originals.
A lot of these make good sense and seem like good compromises. I think the last one is a little besides the point; counterfeiters are responsible for their own immoral behavior, and the best response to their actions is to catch and prosecute those people, not to employ some sort of management strategy designed to make scams unprofitable. But that's a tangent; all of these things are reasonable compromises that should probably be on the table. I wouldn't object to any of them (not that I object to Legacy-with-proxies as a practice in the first place, I just don't think you can be surprised when Wizards decides to crack down).
I think counterfeiters exist more on a spectrum as opposed to black/white only. I made a post earlier in this thread about drugs and I think it is related to this issue.
Quote from mASTERsELF »
The issue of proxies and reprints is similar to the black market for drugs. Raise the tax on cigarettes too high and the black market flourishes. Keep marijuana illegal and the black market will supply. Similarly keep the price of desired and needed (in order to play competitively) cards high and the supply low and the black market will fill the gap. It is really pretty simple. In addition, if the taxes on cigarettes are reasonable and marijuana is made legal, then the government can profit and has a new source of income. Similarly if WOTC reprints more reasonably (note I said reasonably, not drive prices to zero), then WOTC can profit. Better meeting the desires of consumers also provides the benefit of no longer needing to fund (i.e. lose money) countermeasures to police the black market. Another benefit is positive PR from happier consumers.
Sure counterfeiters are responsible for their behaviour, but the system they exist in that incentivizes counterfeiting and the actions (or lack of actions) by those with the power to change things play a role as well. Similar to how with drugs it is not most beneficial for society to "catch and prosecute those people", I think there are more beneficial courses of action for everyone. Do you think the status quo is currently the best for everyone?
Private Mod Note
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
In this thread lots of free riders who don't know they are free riders.
The "I don't have money for these decks" isn't a valid excuse. Magic cards have TONS of value in them, and with a modicum of effort it is not difficult to trade for cards you want, circumventing the need for cash in hand. You can then play these real cards at WPN events, and all is right in the world. Even if you live in the middle of nowhere, the internet has made card accessibility trivial via Pucatrade, various Facebook/Twitter/Reddit trading groups. Certainly, you all have access to a mailbox, and again, there are a ton of ways to insulate yourself from being defrauded by trading in the mail - thousands of players do it daily.
The proxy problem is this: people who don't have to play with real cards in an event will just play not real cards, because why wouldn't you other than some social pressures or some personal feeling that you should? They aren't buying singles at their store in all likelihood. A lot of LGS really have a problem where a player is in their store 52+ days a year but spends next to nothing. They won't say it to your face, but store owners have to eat too, and events in and of themselves are not meaningfully profitable. They really just want you to buy their product. You aren't doing them any favors by just being present.
So, we come to the Vintage/Legacy issue. Wizards has blatantly acknowledged they aren't going to actively support the formats because their hands are tied with the Reserved list. You can be mad on the internet that the Reserved List exists, but it isn't a moral argument - it just is. WoTC is not going back on it. They have had ample opportunity to do so and have chosen not to, so unless you want to pony up a lot of card board to trade into Power (which, again, you can certainly do using the methods outlined above), coupled with the low frequency of those events, you may just have to accept this is how it is, and play Legacy/vintage online if you want your fix. Failing that, well, being mad about the injustice of it all is not terribly productive.
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
Allow me to again preach the gospel of the False Reserve List, Brothers and Sisters. All of you who decry the barriers put before you by the Great And Almighty Reserve List, all of you who believe you are shackled to a wall made of old promises, all who believe that destroying the Reserve List would lead to the land of milk and honey, I say onto you, NO!
You are restrained by an illusion, my Brothers and Sisters! You are beholden to a vapor, entwined with mist! This List closes off a small, tiny country previously peopled by The Old Cards, but it leaves open numerous rich and fertile lands to every side! For every function you would have the Old Cards perform, I say to you, there are unplowed fields and fallow Earth ready for the seeds of new function to sew!
For the truth, my Brothers and Sisters, is that is NOT the Reserve List that prevents the Wizards of the Coast, praise be upon them, from releasing onto you the Snow Duals. It is not the Reserve List that prevents the creation of Old Cards with new types and mechanics differing from the old.
What stops the farmers from sewing those unplowed fields, then? Fear, my friends! Fear of the very horror that would be unleashed by creating more entities and great and mighty as those Old Cards! Fear that the World of Standard or even Dirty Casuals be OVERRUN with a power they cannot control, and upended like moneylender's table.
Preach no more the gospel of the False Reserve List, Brothers and Sisters! Recognize it is not the List, but a fear of destruction, that binds you!
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
Depends on the context. If you're talking about putting cards into your cube, then I think people are totally justified in wanting to avoid buying a small house just for the privilege of playing a card game. Let'em buy the Playtest cards (to use WOTC's apparent new definition of non-official-proxy, non-counterfeit cards) and use em all day long. If they want to compete in sanctioned play for prizes, well, that requires you pay to play.
Ultimately, this debate always devolves into people saying the other side is wrong to feel one way or the other, and that kind of argument is destined to fail.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
While I don't think this tone is appropriate, I can appreciate the sentiment and I imagine it's a really frustrating situation to be in (it reminds me of my lonely Vampire: the Eternal Struggle cards sitting in torpor in hopes that some day there will be a vibrant community-based playgroup in my area).
You also make a crucial point above, about Vintage players who crack boxes to foil out decks with new cards when new synergies arise. So yeah, if I'm coming off as "all Vintage players just want to play for free," I apologize. I think players chasing things like a foil Dack Fayden contributes to the ecosystem in a positive way.
But that's not the only subgroup in question when you're talking about an umbrella policy for proxies. People are talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments. I don't think that's appropriate. A reasonable person could disagree. Once you start letting proxies in at WPN-affiliated stores, where do you draw the line? Wizards has to decide something, so while I can see why you're angry about this issue, I can also see why they ruled in the way they did.
Now, you state the problem perfectly when you point out that Vintage has a huge problem in the sense that the extremely limited supply of Power 9 cards is not sufficient to sustain a healthy competitive community. This I feel is an organic problem based on the fact that MtG is a collectible card game and not because Wizards, or any subgroup of its customers, is doing anything incompetent or malicious. It's a problem inherent to CCGs. There aren't a lot of traditional CCGs left. I suspect this is the exact reason.
So, yeah. It sucks. A lot. I can't imagine how much, because I sold the couple pieces of Power 9 I had a long long time ago and never had a competitive Vintage deck to speak of. Aren't there other options, though, besides playing unsanctioned proxy tournaments at stores? The same league could be moved to people's houses just like any poker game could. You could liquidize and move online (yeah, not a very satisfying option, but it's there). Or lend decks to opponents (obviously you'd need a large threshold of trust to let anybody new into your playgroup, but it's an option). None of these options are what you want, obviously, but I don't see how Wizards being clearer and stricter about a standing policy is the nail in the coffin, or make the situation any worse than the simple rules of supply and demand already did.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Why not have a full proxy modern tournament at a WPN affiliate store. I am assuming that the store still runs Sanctioned tournaments (proxys are not allowed). It should be up to the store they can decide if they make money by running the tournament.
If Wizards wanted to do so, I would say it should be done about a decade ago. Back then, finance articles were almost nonexistent. Speculation and hoarding? It was called collection. So you could play the formats you want, and be ready to play a GP or PT near you.
These "finance writers" are selling a dream, that Magic is a profiteering business first, a game second. It used to be a subculture, like how EDH and the like were just basement, kitchen table formats. Now the behavior is ingrained into our consciousness. Open a goyf? Today you think of money/valuation first. Before that the mindset was "yes! I can put this in my Atog-lookalike deck!"
In an ideal world where the reserved list would be abolished, and we get those reprints, there has to be alot of requirements.
I'll provide some hard-hitting requirements:
-larger than normal print run of sets and supplementary products
-no mythic rarity
-foils in every booster
-full art lands in each booster
-banning of finance articles
-online card/product purchases restricted to 4 (of the same card or product) per day; basically a playset rule
-continuation of promos via prerelease, FNMs, player rewards, judge programs
There's more, and only if these factors exist can we have a product like Vintage/Legacy Masters. If not, it's a pipe dream.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I think the number of people "talking about full-proxy Modern tournaments" are very very few in number. Most people I know who support proxies only support proxies of extremely expensive cards that are essential to play the game and stand a chance versus the average deck in said format. Aside from investors I don't think having essential cards at the $100+ range per card (this price point may be different for different people (my personal highest price point is around $50CAD)) is beneficial for the game or players as it creates an extremely high barrier to entry, stifles the metagame, fuels professional counterfeiters (which could really affect the viability of Magic as a CCG), makes Magic appear like a game only for the 1%, and makes Magic pay-to-stand-a-chance if you want to play in a format with reasonable counterspells, land destruction, combos, and other degenerate things.
WOTC could do many things to solve this issue:
-Allow a specific number of proxies.
-Allow proxies of reserve list cards only.
-Allow proxies of cards that hit a specific price ceiling (WOTC is like a government in that they could cap the market).
-Reasonably reprint staples.
-Ban reserve list cards.
-Implement a policy where cards will be reprint (with new art and style so they are different from the originals) if they hit a certain price point and make this policy clear so investors and players are aware.
-Do nothing, anger their player base and provide further incentive for professional counterfeiters to produce counterfeits indistinguishable from the originals.
You may counter that none of those are good options, but I would counter than doing nothing is essentially doing something and as WOTC is a business a good goal for them would be to choose an option that provides profit to them (because that is chiefly what businesses do in our capitalist loving society) and makes players (i.e. their customers) happy. Many of the above options could meet that goal. Allowing a specific number of proxies in stores still has players buying cards, sleeves, snacks, encourages other customers to frequent the store as they have people to play with and provides WOTC and LGSs with good PR. However, this may still provide incentive for professional counterfeiters. Reasonably reprinting staples would provide income for WOTC, while making many players happy and likely do the most to slow professional counterfeiters. Those are just some pros and cons and you can think more about the others, which I hope WOTC is also doing now too.
Also, I find it fascinating how the MtG economy mirrors the larger economy that features gross and sickening growing inequality. In addition to low supply for some cards I think part of the reason Magic cards in all formats are reaching such high prices is the 1% have too much disposable income while average wage increases for everyone else (measured to inflation) has been virtually zero since the 1970s or so. Similar to how the rich are inflating the price of real estate in world cities (e.g. Vancouver, San Francisco, London, New York, etc.) (seen as a safe place to park one's money), I think the same is happening with Magic cards (seen by some as purely an investment).
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
As for the self-entitlement issue, it's honestly a two-way street. On one end, we see self-entitlement on those who feel that every format should be readily accessible to players who haven't been investing in the game for a decade; on the other, we see individuals who have managed to obtain their cards through whatever reason, and believe the value of their cards should be preserved as a result of their dedication and effort put into their collections.
Personally, however, I find it easier to sympathize with those who wish for the formats to be more accessible. I love Magic as a game, and I feel that Legacy is a format that exemplifies and defines Magic history, and to be a format of passion, interest, and understanding of the finer aspects of the game. For this reason, I find the format to be my favorite by far, as well as the format I try explaining to friends of mine as they start to learn to core concepts of Magic as a game. I want more players to own these cards. I think more players deserve to experience the awesome and fulfilling game that is represented by the Eternal formats.
For those, on the other hand, who feel this privilege should be exclusive to those who happened to "luck out" by being introduced into the game early....I say shame on you. If you truly loved the game, loved your cards, and loved the format you claim to care about so much as a whole, you would relinquish the majority of your cards' monetary value in favor of appreciating their true value: the ability to play with them, and the value they possess within their respective formats.
Many people have said it, and I will reiterate once more: Magic is a game. It's a hobby. It's not an investment. If you say the game was meant just as much for collectors and it was players, then I will listen to you once "MTG collector's conventions" are held as often as Open events and GPs.
Personally I don't want them to ban the reserve list (at least in Commander, I love Volrath's Stronghold), but I also don't think banning the reserve list would work very well as many would likely still want to play with those cards and I think it is reasonable to believe banning the reserve list would hurt the market for those cards more than reprints or allowing proxies would. Banning the reserve list also leaves it reasonably possible a new format would be created as opposed to stopping legacy, vintage and counterfeiters. Maybe I just think about promises differently, but if an elected leader made a promise to voters that ended up leading to undesirable and poor consequences for a majority of people, I think it is unreasonable to hold said elected leader to keeping said promise come hell or high water. People should make reasonable decisions that take everything into account. A promise counts for something, but a hasty promise made in response to backlash seems a tenuous promise to me.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Interesting idea. Surprised I haven't heard it thrown out before.
People using proxies in Legacy or Vintage doesn't actually hurt their bottom line at all. However, I imagine that the same people who would be royally pissed about Wizards abolishing the reserve list would also be pissed if Wizards was okay with anyone and everyone using proxies of those cards. Their power level is certainly a large part of their value, after all, and that matters to collectors. Now, I don't claim to know who these people are as they don't seem to speak out much on forums like this, but Wizards seems pretty adamant that those people exist and that there are quite a few of them (I wouldn't be at all surprised if several of them had large stakes in Wizards/Hasbro). Enough so that they're afraid of pissing them off. I would imagine that this policy is more to protect the interest of those people than anything else.
I think a good compromise would be allowing a specific number of proxies in Vintage and Legacy events. Keeping them banned outright in Modern and Standard protects Wizards interests, and only allowing a handful of proxies in the older formats should be enough to keep some of the players happy while not royally pissing investors/collectors off. I think specifying specific cards that are/aren't allowed to be proxies (like just saying you can only proxy P9 or something along those lines) is a good idea, though. It would likely piss off collectors with those cards as well as lower their price on the secondary market and/or increase the price of all other cards in the format. I don't think I could ever imagine Wizards being officially okay with full-proxy decks in any format, though. Nor do I really think they should be.
This may come as a shock, but Magic is not only about playing with expensive cards. if you NEED expensive cards to play and have fun, you aren't doing it right. I run a casual group that regularly has 30 people showing up to play casual magic. The people aren't there to win, they are there to have fun. So if you need 700$ worth of cards to have fun, then yes, you shouldn't be playing.
I don't understand these "requirements".
larger than normal print run of sets and supplementary products - This is the one obvious requirement but why is it a problem? The money Wizards would make off of a Legacy/Vintage reprint set would pay for the printing of the next ten magic sets. It's not like they would possibly lose money by printing to demand. Sure, there would be shortages at first and stores would try to price gouge, but if Wizards made it clear that they were going to print to demand and told people not to freak out and just be patient if they couldn't get their hands on initial supply because there would be plenty more coming, then I think things would be fine.
no mythic rarity - I'm no fan of mythic rarity, but why not?
foils in every booster - While this would be a good thing to do, why would it be required? I'm not a fan of the "foil in every pack" gimmick because it gives Wizards an excuse to try to sell packs for $10.
full art lands in each booster - Why would this be required? Full art lands aren't necessary for deck building in Legacy/Vintage. They would be a great bonus but I think just reprinting some RL stuff alongside other old Vintage/Legacy era playables would be enough.
banning of finance articles - Why? That's obviously something that is not feasible in the least. Even if Wizards could somehow ban the posting of MTG-related finance articles online, it wouldn't stop people from trying to profit off the set.
online card/product purchases restricted to 4 (of the same card or product) per day; basically a playset rule - Another requirement that would never be feasible. If Wizards printed to demand supply would eventually meet the demand and there wouldn't be issues. Just look at the Commander 2014 deck that had True-name Nemesis in it. At first that deck was impossible to find because of TNN and other cards making it worth more than double the retail cost. TNN was $40 and paid for the entire deck by itself. It was also in high demand so it was easy to move it and actually profit from buying the deck and reselling singles. But Wizards re-supplied after the initial sellouts, people got their playset of TNN and demand began to dwindle. I saw the decks sitting around at Walmart for quite some time, unsold. Now TNN is a $14 card. Same thing happened with the Karador deck and Scavenging Ooze. It was $40 for a long time, but then it was reprinted and promo'd and it became a sub $5 card for most of it's Standard duration.
continuation of promos via prerelease, FNMs, player rewards, judge programs - Why would this not happen? We've had two Modern Masters sets now, but we still get modern staples as FNM promos and I'm sure we've gotten some as judge promos too. I don't see how Legacy/Vintage masters would have any effect on prerelease promos since those are always Standard cards and we're probably not going to be seeing any Legacy/Vintage reprints in Standard anytime soon with the way things are going now.
My requirements would have to be:
-Make the set available to the masses and make it affordable. No "super limited print run BUY NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE" BS. No "Card shop only, no big box retailer" BS. No "Your store only gets 4 boxes and the boxes only have 24 packs and cost $200+" BS. No "$10+ booster packs oh by the way they're mostly .50 rares" BS.
-Don't blow the wad in one go. Aka don't put all the power 9, all 10 duals, Force of Wills and every other RL desirable all in one set. Spread it out. Mix it up with Reserved List EDH playables like Volrath's Stronghold and Serra's Sanctum. Maybe throw in some cards like Demonic Tutor and Vindicate. Cards that would be awesome to reprint but are too strong for Standard/Modern and considered a little too good/too valuable for reprint in Duel Decks/Commander precons.
-Give people a good heads up. Not that I have a ton of sympathy for people who think their collections and decks should only ever increase in value and that people who weren't fortunate enough to play when cards were affordable don't deserve to be able to play with those cards, but it would be classy of Wizards to give a warning far in advance to give people who want to the opportunity to try to cash out.
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Wizards have updated the site and cleared things up.
if i want to have fun playng vintage or legacy then yes it is expensive and i need the expensive cards in order to play eternal
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
They mention DCI-sanctioned events and playtesting, but what about non-DCI-sanctioned tournaments? Do those fall under playtesting?
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Of course, this description is kind of flawed, as everyone uses the proxy function on magiccards.info to make playtest cards, which include the art. It seems like Wizards considers use of this function to be counterfeiting.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I think that has more to do with the fact that Tarmogoyf is now a more relevant card than it was at first. Yes, of course when I open a pack of Modern Masters I'm thinking of the market value of its most expensive card... because I'm paying real money for a random quantity and I want to be able to prevent throwing money out the window. If I want an Atog-lookalike I can just buy it as a single, whether I'm a competitive player or a casual player. I, for one, appreciate the finance articles because they allow players to make their money go further and participate more in the game they love. So, when I open a goyf I'm not looking at the picture but I'm not thinking about "profit" as such - I'm thinking "someone probably wants this, and with the amount they'd trade for it I could finish my Tron deck."
That's fair. There's a bit of slippery slope on my part when I say "start allowing proxies, then what?" But I also think the number of people who are concerned about competitive Vintage/Legacy play is too small to be on Wizards' radar. I imagine the majority of players that they aim their printing/marketing decisions towards are unaware of what a Mox Sapphire is or why it's important. Not that it doesn't suck for the people who do care, but I don't see why they have any incentive to take any action, even if you could argue away the short-term risk for long-term benefits.
A lot of these make good sense and seem like good compromises. I think the last one is a little besides the point; counterfeiters are responsible for their own immoral behavior, and the best response to their actions is to catch and prosecute those people, not to employ some sort of management strategy designed to make scams unprofitable. But that's a tangent; all of these things are reasonable compromises that should probably be on the table. I wouldn't object to any of them (not that I object to Legacy-with-proxies as a practice in the first place, I just don't think you can be surprised when Wizards decides to crack down).
Come now, let's keep a sense of perspective. The problem of homelessness in San Fransisco involves people actually suffering in very physical ways. There's no parallel in not being able to build the deck you want for a competitive gaming event. There can arguably be identifiable "classes" in Constructed Magic, but to characterize it as "sickening growing inequality" represents the kind of hyperbole that keeps us talking past each other. At the end of the day, Magic is a hobby that costs money; it is profitable for both the manufacturers and the people who allow us to play at their stores because they charge us money. Otherwise they couldn't hire designers and artists or pay the rent for their shop. Balancing your hobbies with your other hobbies and your material needs is simply part of adult life. If you want a bigger and more competitive Magic collection, you can go a long way by not buying beer or pizza or video games or going to concerts or whatever. This isn't necessarily fun but it's just part of life. The cry of "I shouldn't have to cut other recreation costs to play more Magic!" is reasonably met with "why? What makes you special?" That's why people keep bringing up entitlement. Access to a specific format in a collectible card game is not a basic right and has nothing to do with basic material needs (the lack of which among many people across the world rightly should cause moral outrage); treating it as if it is clouds the issue with a bunch of overwrought reactions and pointing fingers about who are the haves and who are the have-nots. It's just out of proportion to the problem at hand.
Disagree, most people I know use the Sharpie-on-card method for playtesting.
And yes, printed proxies using MTG illustration are copyright infringement. Note that MTGSalvation rules do not allow for the promotion of such proxies:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/introduce-yourself/655145-mtgsalvation-forum-rules#Illegal
I think you should reread what I wrote. My use of the phrase "sickening growing inequality" was used to refer to the "larger economy" as explicitly stated in my post. The mirroring part is disposable income by the very rich used to inflate assets seen as safe places to park money. I also underlined the term "part" for good reason and started my paragraph with "Also, I find it fascinating" to suggest I was simply sharing a simple thought and not posting a solid argument.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
I think counterfeiters exist more on a spectrum as opposed to black/white only. I made a post earlier in this thread about drugs and I think it is related to this issue.
Sure counterfeiters are responsible for their behaviour, but the system they exist in that incentivizes counterfeiting and the actions (or lack of actions) by those with the power to change things play a role as well. Similar to how with drugs it is not most beneficial for society to "catch and prosecute those people", I think there are more beneficial courses of action for everyone. Do you think the status quo is currently the best for everyone?
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
The "I don't have money for these decks" isn't a valid excuse. Magic cards have TONS of value in them, and with a modicum of effort it is not difficult to trade for cards you want, circumventing the need for cash in hand. You can then play these real cards at WPN events, and all is right in the world. Even if you live in the middle of nowhere, the internet has made card accessibility trivial via Pucatrade, various Facebook/Twitter/Reddit trading groups. Certainly, you all have access to a mailbox, and again, there are a ton of ways to insulate yourself from being defrauded by trading in the mail - thousands of players do it daily.
The proxy problem is this: people who don't have to play with real cards in an event will just play not real cards, because why wouldn't you other than some social pressures or some personal feeling that you should? They aren't buying singles at their store in all likelihood. A lot of LGS really have a problem where a player is in their store 52+ days a year but spends next to nothing. They won't say it to your face, but store owners have to eat too, and events in and of themselves are not meaningfully profitable. They really just want you to buy their product. You aren't doing them any favors by just being present.
So, we come to the Vintage/Legacy issue. Wizards has blatantly acknowledged they aren't going to actively support the formats because their hands are tied with the Reserved list. You can be mad on the internet that the Reserved List exists, but it isn't a moral argument - it just is. WoTC is not going back on it. They have had ample opportunity to do so and have chosen not to, so unless you want to pony up a lot of card board to trade into Power (which, again, you can certainly do using the methods outlined above), coupled with the low frequency of those events, you may just have to accept this is how it is, and play Legacy/vintage online if you want your fix. Failing that, well, being mad about the injustice of it all is not terribly productive.
I can't afford a Jaguar, but I am not screaming at the Jaguar dealership either. If this sounds silly to you, that is what it sounds like when people complain about card prices and accessibility for something that is not a necessity.
You are restrained by an illusion, my Brothers and Sisters! You are beholden to a vapor, entwined with mist! This List closes off a small, tiny country previously peopled by The Old Cards, but it leaves open numerous rich and fertile lands to every side! For every function you would have the Old Cards perform, I say to you, there are unplowed fields and fallow Earth ready for the seeds of new function to sew!
For the truth, my Brothers and Sisters, is that is NOT the Reserve List that prevents the Wizards of the Coast, praise be upon them, from releasing onto you the Snow Duals. It is not the Reserve List that prevents the creation of Old Cards with new types and mechanics differing from the old.
What stops the farmers from sewing those unplowed fields, then? Fear, my friends! Fear of the very horror that would be unleashed by creating more entities and great and mighty as those Old Cards! Fear that the World of Standard or even Dirty Casuals be OVERRUN with a power they cannot control, and upended like moneylender's table.
Preach no more the gospel of the False Reserve List, Brothers and Sisters! Recognize it is not the List, but a fear of destruction, that binds you!
Depends on the context. If you're talking about putting cards into your cube, then I think people are totally justified in wanting to avoid buying a small house just for the privilege of playing a card game. Let'em buy the Playtest cards (to use WOTC's apparent new definition of non-official-proxy, non-counterfeit cards) and use em all day long. If they want to compete in sanctioned play for prizes, well, that requires you pay to play.
Ultimately, this debate always devolves into people saying the other side is wrong to feel one way or the other, and that kind of argument is destined to fail.