perhaps it's not true, or perhaps the scope is not as big as it seems to me, but it surprised me a bit. On the one hand I can see WotC feeling that with the ongoing counterfeit problems that they combat that allowing proxy tournaments with an entry fee at WPN stores could be seen as creating a legimate reason to buy counterfeits as proxies. On the other hand this seems a tad heavy handed.
I understand that they want to do everything in their power to choke the market for counterfeit cards, but this seems like an overreach to me. Stores can`t do what they want with non-sanctioned events without being threatened to lose WPN status?
Besides, I`d think the market for good fakes would be the sanctioned events, not the proxy events. Lets put it this way, I wouldn`t bother with 10-20 dollar proxies for a tournament where magic marker on a basic would do. People buy these so-called high quality proxies to pass them off as the real thing, not to actually use them as openly declared proxies.
I know what a cliché complaint this has already been for a while, but I`m gonna say it: It`s like they`re actually trying actively to kill Legacy.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
I'm not going to give any details, but of all the shops in my area, at least two will keep running Proxies event under the tables. That's absolute BS and they have no way to verify the cards, so...
It's now for both Unsanctioned & Sanctioned events. That's kinda irritating, since it let me test out different decks in an event setting without investing in the cards. Which was actually handy as it showed me how the match-ups played against some more fringe decks that others might now have off-hand, and see if I actually enjoyed even playing the archetype.
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If Wizards truly wants to just kill a couple formats they could come out and say it already, although I'm not quite sure who exactly would narc (my choice of words) on the store having a proxy tournament, but you know there is someone out there that would either out of joy or being a douche canoe.
So I take it this means Wizards is finally going to abolish the Reserved List and start making a real effort to reign in insane secondary market prices, riiiight?
I wonder if Wizards will ban players for not reporting that their store allows proxies in unsanctioned tournaments?
This has been their policy, iirc. It's not a change, it's just something that's very rarely enforced since it's basically impossible for Wizards to know about that stuff happening at lgs's unless someone specifically tells them it is. Moral of the story is that if you want your lgs to run unsanctioned events that allow proxies, don't go around telling Wizards that they do so.
So I take it this means Wizards is finally going to abolish the Reserved List and start making a real effort to reign in insane secondary market prices, riiiight?
I wonder if Wizards will ban players for not reporting that their store allows proxies in unsanctioned tournaments?
Obviously this means we'll get Vintage Masters with unlimted printing instead of Conspiracy 2. /s
End the reserved list and start printing the cards people need/demand, and this policy is just fine. Outside of that, people will just proxy in playgroups and everybody will pitch in 5 bucks or whatever to be given to the top X players of the night.
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This is entirely economic. You stop creation of a card, you encourage a black market to flourish. It's called Vintage and Legacy Masters. This is the same thing as Napster versus Istore. People wanted to get digital, so went illegal Napster. Eventually someone had the ability to create the Istore and boom Napster is dead. Yes, there are other pirates these days, however most people no longer have to rely on piracy to get digital goods from Istore, Amazon, and other retailers.
The reserved list is THE PROBLEM, not THE SOLUTION.
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* I thought the entire meaning of "unsanctioned" was that the event was specifically NOT required to follow official rules? What the hell does "unsanctioned" even mean now?
* What gives Wizards the right to tell people what they can and can't do outside of the DCI?
Wizards is telling WPN stores (well, at least one WPN store that we know of) that if they want to remain WPN stores, they cannot run tournaments that allow proxies. Like it or not, legally they can do that, because they have the authority to take away WPN for any reason they want.
So...how do they plan on enforcing this? They're gonna send armed WotC police squads to shops and check if people are playing with proxies? What's stopping the shops with registering the tournament as a casual event without any further descriptions? How do they plan on proving that it was a proxy Legacy tournament, rather than a Chaos Draft or Pauper Standard or anything?
Well, people could report them. Of course in this case, people probably won't. However, as with all things stores do that is against Wizards rules, people could just notify Wizards and they will take action.
But here is the thing: who would report this? Unlike *****ty promo distributions, seeding rounds and other stuff, proxy tournaments aren't inherently bad or hurting players. Someone would have to be a real ******** to report this kind of thing.
Side note, does it affect only Legacy/Vintage? Because my shop has full proxy Modern/Standard tournaments too.
The thing is someone obviously did report this, or talk about it in the wrong place. They said wizards called them and said this, so wizards was tipped off that this store was doing these events. Its not like they just randomly call stores and say "hey, uh we don't know if you've ever done this but never run unsanctioned proxy events" So its not a question of who "would" report this but who "did" and no one will fess up to that. It also could have been a confession in ignorance, someone off-handedly mentioning on an official site that their store runs proxy events, and there is no malice involved.
Also if it effects your store at all it will effect all proxy events.
Side note, does it affect only Legacy/Vintage? Because my shop has full proxy Modern/Standard tournaments too.
I would assume it goes for everything, just proxy events for Legacy/Vintage is more common due to card availability. Personally, I've seen Legacy events that allow a certain number of proxies, but never for Modern/Standard, though I have played pickup games in my store vs. people who haven't finished their Modern decks and prefer to use proxies rather than substandard cards (in the case of Scalding Tarn, for example, which is quite expensive for a college student).
I don't think that Wizards would care about a group of players sitting in a shop playing a game by their own rules, but if they ask the store to collected money/distribute prizes, that crosses the line... that's my reading, anyway.
So if we go to our cardshop with our fully proxied Modern decks, one of us brings a laptop so we have access to something like Challonge, and we pool money for prize packs, all while at our LGS, it's perfectly fine? The number of ways you can cheat this "ruling" is so incredibly high that it really makes me wonder how is WotC gonna try to enforce it.
I think if someone reported your store as allowing/encouraging this, they could still get into trouble.
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What exactly stops WotC from calling the store and saying "We hear that you have players there who are running illegal counterfeits in their decks. If you want to keep WPN status, you need to deal with that." This is WotC deciding that they are not accountable to anyone, because they own the DCI and the WPN. They've already decided they can ban anyone for any or no reason at all from tournament play, so now they are using the same bullying tactics against LGS owners. It's very clear from the past that they do not understand "restraint" or "subtlety" and will just hit whatever they like with the biggest hammer they have available.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
So if we go to our cardshop with our fully proxied Modern decks, one of us brings a laptop so we have access to something like Challonge, and we pool money for prize packs, all while at our LGS, it's perfectly fine? The number of ways you can cheat this "ruling" is so incredibly high that it really makes me wonder how is WotC gonna try to enforce it.
I think wizards is relying on shops, wanting to preserve their own WPN status, to enforce the proxy ban for them. If magic is the lifeblood of LGS x, then I think wizards is anticipating the LGS wants to protect their WPN-supported income stream and not risk wizard's wrath.
I live in seattle, where plenty of wizards employees drop by and play at the local shops, so I'd bet some of the LGS' in my area won't be super liberal about proxy announcements, for fear that the rando playing at table 2 is possibly a mtg dev out for a saturday game. (Not that I'm even aware of any proxy tournaments in the city in the first place. The most risque think I've heard about in seattle are iron man drafts, that wizards just seems to object to the principle of in general, rather than on a counterfeit basis.)
maybe this shows my ignorance as I don't follow the formats much but I'll give a bit of a opinion, albeit a bit uninformed
I think that this hurts vintage really bad, as it seems that a lot of vintage events that I hear about are "X amount of proxy events" as there's a great part of the player base who just can't afford power among other cards
With legacy I can see it hurting the format since there may be people who wish to learn the format/certain decks who don't have all the cards yet but wanna learn the deck
I mean I get that they wanna support modern/standard and limited but it kinda sucks they're trying to get rid of formats
I'm sorry but I had to laugh when people asked who would ever report their store. Try about any immature or sore loser player who either didn't get their way or can't cope with the idea of losing. It's the same has playing cod, beating someone and them reporting you're a hacker.
The magic community has some of the best people I know but also the absolute worst. I'm more then sure it was a griefer who even brought this to the attention of wizards to begin with.
As for wizards "enforcing" this, it's understandable. It'd be like iTunes encouraging piracy. Granted as a player I don't agree with this but if I was an employee I'd assume this kind of thing would be a given
I'm still hoping for the day when MaRo or Forscythe hop on TCGPlayer and go "Martha Focker! An Volcanic Island costs $200? A Scalding Tarn is $100? Whoops! We really botched this one. Ladies and gentlemen, please fire up the reprint machine right meow!"
Assuming this page is still valid, this is what Wizards considers a proxy:
Proxies are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Proxies do not include any graphical reproduction of their intended substitutes.
Maybe the notice is using the WPN's meaning of "proxy" to basically say that judge-created proxies are not allowed outside of the event in which they were created?
Proxy Changes?
perhaps it's not true, or perhaps the scope is not as big as it seems to me, but it surprised me a bit. On the one hand I can see WotC feeling that with the ongoing counterfeit problems that they combat that allowing proxy tournaments with an entry fee at WPN stores could be seen as creating a legimate reason to buy counterfeits as proxies. On the other hand this seems a tad heavy handed.
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Besides, I`d think the market for good fakes would be the sanctioned events, not the proxy events. Lets put it this way, I wouldn`t bother with 10-20 dollar proxies for a tournament where magic marker on a basic would do. People buy these so-called high quality proxies to pass them off as the real thing, not to actually use them as openly declared proxies.
I know what a cliché complaint this has already been for a while, but I`m gonna say it: It`s like they`re actually trying actively to kill Legacy.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
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I wonder if Wizards will ban players for not reporting that their store allows proxies in unsanctioned tournaments?
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The reserved list is THE PROBLEM, not THE SOLUTION.
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Wizards is telling WPN stores (well, at least one WPN store that we know of) that if they want to remain WPN stores, they cannot run tournaments that allow proxies. Like it or not, legally they can do that, because they have the authority to take away WPN for any reason they want.
The thing is someone obviously did report this, or talk about it in the wrong place. They said wizards called them and said this, so wizards was tipped off that this store was doing these events. Its not like they just randomly call stores and say "hey, uh we don't know if you've ever done this but never run unsanctioned proxy events" So its not a question of who "would" report this but who "did" and no one will fess up to that. It also could have been a confession in ignorance, someone off-handedly mentioning on an official site that their store runs proxy events, and there is no malice involved.
Also if it effects your store at all it will effect all proxy events.
I would assume it goes for everything, just proxy events for Legacy/Vintage is more common due to card availability. Personally, I've seen Legacy events that allow a certain number of proxies, but never for Modern/Standard, though I have played pickup games in my store vs. people who haven't finished their Modern decks and prefer to use proxies rather than substandard cards (in the case of Scalding Tarn, for example, which is quite expensive for a college student).
I don't think that Wizards would care about a group of players sitting in a shop playing a game by their own rules, but if they ask the store to collected money/distribute prizes, that crosses the line... that's my reading, anyway.
I think if someone reported your store as allowing/encouraging this, they could still get into trouble.
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Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I think wizards is relying on shops, wanting to preserve their own WPN status, to enforce the proxy ban for them. If magic is the lifeblood of LGS x, then I think wizards is anticipating the LGS wants to protect their WPN-supported income stream and not risk wizard's wrath.
I live in seattle, where plenty of wizards employees drop by and play at the local shops, so I'd bet some of the LGS' in my area won't be super liberal about proxy announcements, for fear that the rando playing at table 2 is possibly a mtg dev out for a saturday game. (Not that I'm even aware of any proxy tournaments in the city in the first place. The most risque think I've heard about in seattle are iron man drafts, that wizards just seems to object to the principle of in general, rather than on a counterfeit basis.)
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I think that this hurts vintage really bad, as it seems that a lot of vintage events that I hear about are "X amount of proxy events" as there's a great part of the player base who just can't afford power among other cards
With legacy I can see it hurting the format since there may be people who wish to learn the format/certain decks who don't have all the cards yet but wanna learn the deck
I mean I get that they wanna support modern/standard and limited but it kinda sucks they're trying to get rid of formats
The magic community has some of the best people I know but also the absolute worst. I'm more then sure it was a griefer who even brought this to the attention of wizards to begin with.
As for wizards "enforcing" this, it's understandable. It'd be like iTunes encouraging piracy. Granted as a player I don't agree with this but if I was an employee I'd assume this kind of thing would be a given
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The game store in question was streaming their tournaments on Twitch, so it might not have been a store-goer who reported it.
Maybe the notice is using the WPN's meaning of "proxy" to basically say that judge-created proxies are not allowed outside of the event in which they were created?