Let's see if they can deliver with SoI before holding a eulogy. BFZ was bad and OGW is just alright, but bad sets happen from time to time. I absolutely hated the Scars of Mirrodin block - next one was Innistrad.
I think the set's okay, and that a lot of the Magic: The Theorying going on in this thread is a tad unfair. See, design and development are really good at their jobs. The Creative stuff, however... leaves much to be desired. Don't expect it to get better since the company doesn't put even an iota of the same effort into that side of things.
Also, is it just me or does the color pie seem a bit looser this set? Like, how is Nissa's Judgment within pie?
Nissa's Judgement is perfectly within the colour pie. It doesn't make creatures, like Ezuri's Predation, which is a break. It only allows you to destroy your opponent's creatures if you already have creatures on the board. That's very much how green does things. So far as I can see, the only things which stretch the colour pie are Stone Haven Outfitter, which is a deliberate attempt to experiment with white's portion of the pie (the idea that maybe white can be allowed to draw cards if it's tied to very specific white strategies) and Chandra, Flamecaller who allows red to have actual permanent card advantage.
I think WotC's creative team could maybe use some new blood.
Strange, I think the problem is there's too much new blood.
Let's see if they can deliver with SoI before holding a eulogy. BFZ was bad and OGW is just alright, but bad sets happen from time to time. I absolutely hated the Scars of Mirrodin block - next one was Innistrad.
I did a bit of indepth comparison to SoM over here, but one thing I see in retrospect was that even when SoM was at its worst design, it produced two very interesting mechanics in living weapon + proliferate, and development kept the sets plenty playable, and then NPH came along and had positively stellar design, it and ISD were the best couple set all round in recent memory. Meanwhile BFZ was significantly worse designed than SoM/MBS, a new low in almost every way possible- mechanics, art, playability, worldbuilding- and OGW like you say is just alright, hardly the third act redemption we saw with NPH
This block was a real failure. I don't know if its the worst of all time, at least since magic matured, but it might be. I'd like to pretend SoI has nowhere to go but up, but that feels like a jinx
I'm actually surprised, oath looks so much better than I expected. It has it's share of either fun or promising cards for standard and I believe some for modern as well. I'm also quite fond of several pieces of artwork, bfz was absolutely horrendous in that regard. Limited looks like a fast, powerful environment, heck even the majority of commons seem very playable.
My biggest gripe with this set (and bfz) is the complete lack of any meaningful modern reprints. No, I don't want a set with snapcaster, goblin guide, tarmogoyf and every other 10$ uncommon imaginable, but at least throw players interested in modern a bone and show them that you're willing to support your super awesome format. Modern masters has been done twice already and didn't do jack**** long-term to reduce the price of high-demand modern cards. Frankly, I don't care because I don't play modern... but I would love to if cards didn't cost an arm and a leg. The core-set is gone now so I really hope future sets have been designed with some modern-reprints in mind.
I don't get the flavor with Captain's Claws. Why not be a Bag of Coins so you can recruit allies. Or a Banner of Zendikar.
Maybe this art was a leftover piece and they had no real clue what to do with it. The claws look pretty impressive, I think, yet have nothing to do with recruiting allies whatsoever.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I know we hear this every time..but this set really is the worst. I was not even a little bit of a fan of BFZ and this is like the stinky cousin of that set.
It'd be too much of a good thing if all 10 duals were in the same Standard with fetches. Once SOI comes out, the fetches leave Standard and maybe we can see the enemy tangos.
There are quite a few cards from this set I want, so I do consider it a good one. And significantly superior to BFZ by leaps and bounds.
That said, my complaint with it is similar - too much Eldrazi, not enough Zendikar. I'd have just printed the titans and ignored this entire drone concept creatively and in the cards. From a story perspective I'd prefer the Eldrazi to be so monstrous and immense that they can single handedly wipe out a majority of Zendikar just by existing before stopped. They, the titans, would be the villains under the spotlight alone, with no lineages.
From a gameplay perspective, I just don't like colorless cards and I don't care about the Eldrazi at all, titans included. So for me, half both these sets already will not appeal to me regardless. And they don't. I also don't care for Allies, but I know many do, and they make flavor sense as well as seem like fun across many formats including limited, so it doesn't feel as alienating to have them despite having no desire for any. But all these Eldrazi cards just mean nothing to me. It's like New Phyrexia or whatever. Whatever block that was as a whole I abhorred.
limited thoughts
There is a lot more on board tricks than usual, almost lorwyn style.
I am so glad pretty much everything is an ally this time it was so annoying in BFZ
I like cohort
I think there is too little equipment unfortunately, in draft you'll basically have to wheel all the bone saws to make that deck work.
Surge might be hard to get going.
Blue seems weak green doesn't seem to have improved that much. Black looks great, lots of cheap removal.
Constructed thoughts. grasp of darkness ding ding excellent.
The colourless/wastes cards are super powerful they will have a big impact.
There are quite a few cards from this set I want, so I do consider it a good one. And significantly superior to BFZ by leaps and bounds.
That said, my complaint with it is similar - too much Eldrazi, not enough Zendikar. I'd have just printed the titans and ignored this entire drone concept creatively and in the cards. From a story perspective I'd prefer the Eldrazi to be so monstrous and immense that they can single handedly wipe out a majority of Zendikar just by existing before stopped. They, the titans, would be the villains under the spotlight alone, with no lineages.
From a gameplay perspective, I just don't like colorless cards and I don't care about the Eldrazi at all, titans included. So for me, half both these sets already will not appeal to me regardless. And they don't. I also don't care for Allies, but I know many do, and they make flavor sense as well as seem like fun across many formats including limited, so it doesn't feel as alienating to have them despite having no desire for any. But all these Eldrazi cards just mean nothing to me. It's like New Phyrexia or whatever. Whatever block that was as a whole I abhorred.
Amen, Jenrik. One of my buddies and I each have a vampire tribal edh deck. He likes Innistrad's red-black hedonistic vampires, and I loved original Zendikar ' s shamanistic vampires. I got Drana, Liberator of Malakir in BFZ, and little else for the deck this block. Yes, I'm aware Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is great. My buddy will put it in Olivia just fine. I can't because he and Drana are opposed in the story. The point is I was hoping for great or at least new additions to vampires. Instead I got decent limited ones - and don't get me wrong, I do like the vampires for limited a lot - and a Drana who felt oddly disconnected from her past form. Not bad, just disconnected. I was hoping Oath would give me more ammo - or any - for a standard vamp deck. Doesn't seem that way. Innistradian vampires are just not as cool to me as the Zendikari ones.
The set is fine. Like others have mentioned, it just doesn't pick up the slack where BFZ left off enough. I think Development has gotten too cautious if Shock, Lightning Strike and Rampant Growth are too OP for standard, and this set seems to confirm that. Surge is fun and I look forward to playing it some. Cohort had potential, but seems very safely played and underpowered as result. The block is too scattered outside of Eldrazi to have any great Zendikari draft strategies, and the equipment subtheme we were given outside of the claws of allyfall is a bit insulting.
Like you said, the absurd number of Eldrazi killed this block for me. I liked Zendikar block originally for the natives and the adventure world. I'm so bored of Eldrazi that Im actually starting to pray they don't Emrakul back for SOI. I get some people like them. I just don't. This is the first set Im not buying into in years. I'll play limited, but that's it. Doesn't mean much, but I don't support this block's design, development and story, and so I'm going to exercise my right as a consumer and just not buy in. I get people love this set, and that's fair. Just not my thing.
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Vorthos-player with way too much time on his hands and a love of thematic decks.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
They have never said the following were too powerful in standard Lightning Strike and Shock. I love how people just assume that ***** because oh man we haven't had a shock variant in a few sets and lightning strike is not in standard currently. Do people start claiming that Essence Scatter is too strong for standard? We haven't seen that card in an EVEN LONGER period of time. How about claiming that Opportunity is too strong for standard also, I mean we haven't had that card in quite a while.
Right now standard has a shock variant called Wild Slash and it has a form of lightning strike type card in Draconic Roar. They don't need to throw out a shock and lightning strike variant in every ******* set to prove that they think it's fine in standard.
Let's see if they can deliver with SoI before holding a eulogy. BFZ was bad and OGW is just alright, but bad sets happen from time to time. I absolutely hated the Scars of Mirrodin block - next one was Innistrad.
Heh, I loved Scars of Mirrodin, and didn't give a flying flip about Innistrad.
They have never said the following were too powerful in standard Lightning Strike and Shock. I love how people just assume that ***** because oh man we haven't had a shock variant in a few sets and lightning strike is not in standard currently. Do people start claiming that Essence Scatter is too strong for standard? We haven't seen that card in an EVEN LONGER period of time. How about claiming that Opportunity is too strong for standard also, I mean we haven't had that card in quite a while.
Right now standard has a shock variant called Wild Slash and it has a form of lightning strike type card in Draconic Roar. They don't need to throw out a shock and lightning strike variant in every ******* set to prove that they think it's fine in standard.
Except there's a very clear downgrade from Wild Slash/Draconic Roar to Reality Hemorrhage, whereas the power level of conditional counterspells and big draw has remained largely the same, regardless of the specific cards printed. It's not just that Lightning Strike and Shock are absent this block, it's that the closest equivalents all cost one mana extra, or do one damage less. That's why people are wondering what WotC thinks is an appropriate power level for burn in Standard. (Although, the issue is actually not about burn being too powerful, but rather, what creatures can be playable alongside efficient burn.)
When WotC prints a draw four spell that costs seven, then people will start asking if WotC thinks Opportunity is too strong.
Nissa's Judgement is perfectly within the colour pie. It doesn't make creatures, like Ezuri's Predation, which is a break. It only allows you to destroy your opponent's creatures if you already have creatures on the board. That's very much how green does things. So far as I can see, the only things which stretch the colour pie are Stone Haven Outfitter, which is a deliberate attempt to experiment with white's portion of the pie (the idea that maybe white can be allowed to draw cards if it's tied to very specific white strategies) and Chandra, Flamecaller who allows red to have actual permanent card advantage.
I'm what way is Ezuri's Predation a break? It makes tokens and fights. Those are very Green things. It's like MaRo has said in the past. They won't make a card that makes a deathtouch token and fights something because that is basically Murder. But Ezuri's Predation is just fine. Chandra may push things but it's in a very Red way. And personally I don't like this experiment with White draw. But that may be more due to my dislike of white in general than anything else.
Nissa's Judgement is perfectly within the colour pie. It doesn't make creatures, like Ezuri's Predation, which is a break. It only allows you to destroy your opponent's creatures if you already have creatures on the board. That's very much how green does things. So far as I can see, the only things which stretch the colour pie are Stone Haven Outfitter, which is a deliberate attempt to experiment with white's portion of the pie (the idea that maybe white can be allowed to draw cards if it's tied to very specific white strategies) and Chandra, Flamecaller who allows red to have actual permanent card advantage.
I'm what way is Ezuri's Predation a break? It makes tokens and fights. Those are very Green things. It's like MaRo has said in the past. They won't make a card that makes a deathtouch token and fights something because that is basically Murder. But Ezuri's Predation is just fine. Chandra may push things but it's in a very Red way. And personally I don't like this experiment with White draw. But that may be more due to my dislike of white in general than anything else.
Maro has stated on his blog that he considers Ezuri's Predation a break because it does not depend on an existing permanent. With it you can kill creatures from an empty board, with only a Sorcery. This is fundamentally different from other fight spells, and is a break from Green, which is permanent-based removal, according to Maro.
I really do wonder how long Wizards can keep phoning it in before low sales demand a change. This set is better for sure, but it's still incredibly boring which is worse than being underpowered in my opinion. At least Warping Wail is cool.
* An Eldrazi lord like Glorious Anthem (+1/+1 to all your eldrazi / colorless stuff)
* Another Eldrazi lord with ingest (Ingest for all your other eldrazi)
* Maybe an Ancient Stirrings variant (Search the first 4 cards instead of 5 for example)
The stuff I like a lot:
* Lots of support for Allies, like several cards that generate tokens to keep the Rally triggers flowing each turn, Captain's Claws is excellent, and I'll get a playset for my old Ally +1/+1 counters deck.
* More Eldrazi mana dorks to ramp (We have three of those here now, and they curve from 3 to 5 mana) and that's not counting the non-eldrazi mana dork that also generates C and costs 2.
* The chance to make a fully colorless deck based on Wastes, Ruins of Oran-Rief and the cards that get fine from having Wastes in the table.
I think the problem is that this is the first block that was shifted to the two set paradigm. I don't think they knew it was two when they started design
There's a new word for Parasitic Design: Cohort. That's really a huge stain on the set.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Well, Lou, if you're making an Ally deck, you're going to naturally include as many allies as possible to get the most from the Rally triggers and from cards such as March from the Tomb, most tribal decks use as many creatures from the tribe as possible.
I think the set's okay, and that a lot of the Magic: The Theorying going on in this thread is a tad unfair. See, design and development are really good at their jobs. The Creative stuff, however... leaves much to be desired. Don't expect it to get better since the company doesn't put even an iota of the same effort into that side of things.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Nissa's Judgement is perfectly within the colour pie. It doesn't make creatures, like Ezuri's Predation, which is a break. It only allows you to destroy your opponent's creatures if you already have creatures on the board. That's very much how green does things. So far as I can see, the only things which stretch the colour pie are Stone Haven Outfitter, which is a deliberate attempt to experiment with white's portion of the pie (the idea that maybe white can be allowed to draw cards if it's tied to very specific white strategies) and Chandra, Flamecaller who allows red to have actual permanent card advantage.
I did a bit of indepth comparison to SoM over here, but one thing I see in retrospect was that even when SoM was at its worst design, it produced two very interesting mechanics in living weapon + proliferate, and development kept the sets plenty playable, and then NPH came along and had positively stellar design, it and ISD were the best couple set all round in recent memory. Meanwhile BFZ was significantly worse designed than SoM/MBS, a new low in almost every way possible- mechanics, art, playability, worldbuilding- and OGW like you say is just alright, hardly the third act redemption we saw with NPH
This block was a real failure. I don't know if its the worst of all time, at least since magic matured, but it might be. I'd like to pretend SoI has nowhere to go but up, but that feels like a jinx
My biggest gripe with this set (and bfz) is the complete lack of any meaningful modern reprints. No, I don't want a set with snapcaster, goblin guide, tarmogoyf and every other 10$ uncommon imaginable, but at least throw players interested in modern a bone and show them that you're willing to support your super awesome format. Modern masters has been done twice already and didn't do jack**** long-term to reduce the price of high-demand modern cards. Frankly, I don't care because I don't play modern... but I would love to if cards didn't cost an arm and a leg. The core-set is gone now so I really hope future sets have been designed with some modern-reprints in mind.
Maybe this art was a leftover piece and they had no real clue what to do with it. The claws look pretty impressive, I think, yet have nothing to do with recruiting allies whatsoever.
This card is really dumb.I woudn't be suprised if this guy sees constructed play,specially modern
That said, my complaint with it is similar - too much Eldrazi, not enough Zendikar. I'd have just printed the titans and ignored this entire drone concept creatively and in the cards. From a story perspective I'd prefer the Eldrazi to be so monstrous and immense that they can single handedly wipe out a majority of Zendikar just by existing before stopped. They, the titans, would be the villains under the spotlight alone, with no lineages.
From a gameplay perspective, I just don't like colorless cards and I don't care about the Eldrazi at all, titans included. So for me, half both these sets already will not appeal to me regardless. And they don't. I also don't care for Allies, but I know many do, and they make flavor sense as well as seem like fun across many formats including limited, so it doesn't feel as alienating to have them despite having no desire for any. But all these Eldrazi cards just mean nothing to me. It's like New Phyrexia or whatever. Whatever block that was as a whole I abhorred.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Either way, they're doing something wrong.
There is a lot more on board tricks than usual, almost lorwyn style.
I am so glad pretty much everything is an ally this time it was so annoying in BFZ
I like cohort
I think there is too little equipment unfortunately, in draft you'll basically have to wheel all the bone saws to make that deck work.
Surge might be hard to get going.
Blue seems weak green doesn't seem to have improved that much. Black looks great, lots of cheap removal.
Constructed thoughts.
grasp of darkness ding ding excellent.
The colourless/wastes cards are super powerful they will have a big impact.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Amen, Jenrik. One of my buddies and I each have a vampire tribal edh deck. He likes Innistrad's red-black hedonistic vampires, and I loved original Zendikar ' s shamanistic vampires. I got Drana, Liberator of Malakir in BFZ, and little else for the deck this block. Yes, I'm aware Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is great. My buddy will put it in Olivia just fine. I can't because he and Drana are opposed in the story. The point is I was hoping for great or at least new additions to vampires. Instead I got decent limited ones - and don't get me wrong, I do like the vampires for limited a lot - and a Drana who felt oddly disconnected from her past form. Not bad, just disconnected. I was hoping Oath would give me more ammo - or any - for a standard vamp deck. Doesn't seem that way. Innistradian vampires are just not as cool to me as the Zendikari ones.
The set is fine. Like others have mentioned, it just doesn't pick up the slack where BFZ left off enough. I think Development has gotten too cautious if Shock, Lightning Strike and Rampant Growth are too OP for standard, and this set seems to confirm that. Surge is fun and I look forward to playing it some. Cohort had potential, but seems very safely played and underpowered as result. The block is too scattered outside of Eldrazi to have any great Zendikari draft strategies, and the equipment subtheme we were given outside of the claws of allyfall is a bit insulting.
Like you said, the absurd number of Eldrazi killed this block for me. I liked Zendikar block originally for the natives and the adventure world. I'm so bored of Eldrazi that Im actually starting to pray they don't Emrakul back for SOI. I get some people like them. I just don't. This is the first set Im not buying into in years. I'll play limited, but that's it. Doesn't mean much, but I don't support this block's design, development and story, and so I'm going to exercise my right as a consumer and just not buy in. I get people love this set, and that's fair. Just not my thing.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
Right now standard has a shock variant called Wild Slash and it has a form of lightning strike type card in Draconic Roar. They don't need to throw out a shock and lightning strike variant in every ******* set to prove that they think it's fine in standard.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Heh, I loved Scars of Mirrodin, and didn't give a flying flip about Innistrad.
Magic, man. ***** is crazy.
Except there's a very clear downgrade from Wild Slash/Draconic Roar to Reality Hemorrhage, whereas the power level of conditional counterspells and big draw has remained largely the same, regardless of the specific cards printed. It's not just that Lightning Strike and Shock are absent this block, it's that the closest equivalents all cost one mana extra, or do one damage less. That's why people are wondering what WotC thinks is an appropriate power level for burn in Standard. (Although, the issue is actually not about burn being too powerful, but rather, what creatures can be playable alongside efficient burn.)
When WotC prints a draw four spell that costs seven, then people will start asking if WotC thinks Opportunity is too strong.
It's not the greatest set ever, but it's certainly better than BFZ!
I'm what way is Ezuri's Predation a break? It makes tokens and fights. Those are very Green things. It's like MaRo has said in the past. They won't make a card that makes a deathtouch token and fights something because that is basically Murder. But Ezuri's Predation is just fine. Chandra may push things but it's in a very Red way. And personally I don't like this experiment with White draw. But that may be more due to my dislike of white in general than anything else.
Maro has stated on his blog that he considers Ezuri's Predation a break because it does not depend on an existing permanent. With it you can kill creatures from an empty board, with only a Sorcery. This is fundamentally different from other fight spells, and is a break from Green, which is permanent-based removal, according to Maro.
Noooo don´t say that
* An Eldrazi lord like Glorious Anthem (+1/+1 to all your eldrazi / colorless stuff)
* Another Eldrazi lord with ingest (Ingest for all your other eldrazi)
* Maybe an Ancient Stirrings variant (Search the first 4 cards instead of 5 for example)
The stuff I like a lot:
* Lots of support for Allies, like several cards that generate tokens to keep the Rally triggers flowing each turn, Captain's Claws is excellent, and I'll get a playset for my old Ally +1/+1 counters deck.
* More Eldrazi mana dorks to ramp (We have three of those here now, and they curve from 3 to 5 mana) and that's not counting the non-eldrazi mana dork that also generates C and costs 2.
* The chance to make a fully colorless deck based on Wastes, Ruins of Oran-Rief and the cards that get fine from having Wastes in the table.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm