Now that I think about it, another Dissipate variant in the same block pisses me off. I never like functionally similar cards in one block. There're some stale minds at Wizards...
I think using Horribly Awry has just scarred me in ways that I've yet to come back from. It isn't that Spell Shrivel is bad. Just that it isn't enough to enable our favorite nullifier. Now with this devoid Dissipate knockoff (honestly I was just hoping for a reprint but hey, this is marginally better), we might have enough between Fathom Feeder, Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, and Devoidipate to live the dream of pretending Ulamog's Nullifier is just as useful as mystic snake.
Now that I think about it, another Dissipate variant in the same block pisses me off. I never like functionally similar cards in one block. There're some stale minds at Wizards...
Now that I think about it, another Dissipate variant in the same block pisses me off. I never like functionally similar cards in one block. There're some stale minds at Wizards...
None of those cards are strictly better.
To avoid the strictly better argument, let's assume he meant that those other cards are actually legitimately playable compared to Spell Shrivel. The exile clause very rarely if ever matters in standard, considering next to no processors actually see any play. Before we had Eldrazi, we only had Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor that even remotely cared about exile. You'd play 4 Clash of Wills before the 1st shrivel for example. For pay 3 mana for what I can get better for 2 and below?
Now that I think about it, another Dissipate variant in the same block pisses me off. I never like functionally similar cards in one block. There're some stale minds at Wizards...
None of those cards are strictly better.
To avoid the strictly better argument, let's assume he meant that those other cards are actually legitimately playable compared to Spell Shrivel. The exile clause very rarely if ever matters in standard, considering next to no processors actually see any play. Before we had Eldrazi, we only had Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor that even remotely cared about exile. You'd play 4 Clash of Wills before the 1st shrivel for example. For pay 3 mana for what I can get better for 2 and below?
Rally the Ancestors cares about exile quite a bit. Not that that made Spell Shrivel great, but I think the state of Standard counterspells is such that everything is very situational and matchup-dependent. I can see a lot of edge cases where you might want a Spell Shrivel or two in your sideboard, depending on the meta... but this is quite a bit more reliable, obviously.
I'm very interested to see if Devoid Control gets enough support to become a thing (I'm really not a fan of needing to cast Herald of Kozilek before my spells get "good"). Being able to curve into Ulamog's Nullifier could certainly be a thing, but if I'm going to fill my deck with narrow counterspells that fit together like puzzle pieces and don't especially impress by themselves, I'm going to need more payoff than just a conditional Mystic Snake. And, as others have said, this doesn't really offer much that Spell Shrivel wasn't already providing.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
I feel that WOTC could have made this feel a lot less like a Dissipate reprint if they simplified it to say "Exile target spell", but then again that might have proven to be too powerful for 1UU.
I disagree. Given the standard meta right now, the counterspells I've named are strictly better because they are more relevant. Plain and simple.
@ LordOrgodemir: Now you mentioned Horribly Awry, this card makes me angrier. I'm sure PV would have felt the same upon seeing this card.
Why does Awry make you angry? Is it how incredibly niche it is? Or how it has such a wasted name on such a lackluster card? Was it because it got your hope up that exile eldrazi control would be a thing and now we are here just ramping it Ulamog's? Because...that's why I dislike it.
I feel that WOTC could have made this feel a lot less like a Dissipate reprint if they simplified it to say "Exile target spell", but then again that might have proven to be too powerful for 1UU.
Maybe...
Three mana is still a lot for a counter in Modern/Legacy/Vintage, especially for something that is functionally identical to Cancel in most circumstances. The main value of "exile target spell" is bypassing "cannot be countered" clauses, which currently are virtually impossible to bypass. Giving, say, Modern control decks an out to RG Tron hardcasting Emrakul would have a notable impact on Modern, but not, by my estimation, a particularly format-shaking one.
3 CMC "Exile Target Spell" would add an interesting tool to add to non-rotating formats, but it might not even be worth the sideboard slot. I think it would have been safe to print.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
I disagree. Given the standard meta right now, the counterspells I've named are strictly better because they are more relevant. Plain and simple.
@ LordOrgodemir: Now you mentioned Horribly Awry, this card makes me angrier. I'm sure PV would have felt the same upon seeing this card.
They don't even counter the same set of things! I'm not even trying to be pedantic about strictly better (although you could just say "better" if that's what you mean). Disdainful Stroke and Dispel don't counter the same things. Silumgar's Scorn is comparable in a non-dragon deck to Spell Shrivel.
Yeah, "exile target spell" would have been perfect to both clean up the wording and distinguish this new card from Dissipate. On the other hand, Dissipate is already a solid counter, so they probably didn't want to print an (almost) strictly better version.
I disagree. Given the standard meta right now, the counterspells I've named are strictly better because they are more relevant. Plain and simple.
@ LordOrgodemir: Now you mentioned Horribly Awry, this card makes me angrier. I'm sure PV would have felt the same upon seeing this card.
Come on, man. "Strictly better" is when there are no possible (or at least relevant) circumstances in which one card can be stronger than the other. That is clearly not the case here. Just say "better", or even "much better".
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Yeah, "exile target spell" would have been perfect to both clean up the wording and distinguish this new card from Dissipate. On the other hand, Dissipate is already a solid counter, so they probably didn't want to print an (almost) strictly better version.
I think the problem with "Exile target spell" is that it would "counter" any spell whatsoever, whether it be uncounterable or not. Sort of like creature Venser, except instead of sending it back to your hand, it's permanent.
Yeah, "exile target spell" would have been perfect to both clean up the wording and distinguish this new card from Dissipate. On the other hand, Dissipate is already a solid counter, so they probably didn't want to print an (almost) strictly better version.
I think the problem with "Exile target spell" is that it would "counter" any spell whatsoever, whether it be uncounterable or not. Sort of like creature Venser, except instead of sending it back to your hand, it's permanent.
I think that's the point. Just about everything in magic has something that offsets it, but currently, "cannot be countered" has no answer other than Mindbreak Trap. Giving an otherwise mediocre counter the ability to bypass that defense would be an interesting design direction.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
I disagree. Given the standard meta right now, the counterspells I've named are strictly better because they are more relevant. Plain and simple.
@ LordOrgodemir: Now you mentioned Horribly Awry, this card makes me angrier. I'm sure PV would have felt the same upon seeing this card.
They don't even counter the same set of things! I'm not even trying to be pedantic about strictly better (although you could just say "better" if that's what you mean). Disdainful Stroke and Dispel don't counter the same things. Silumgar's Scorn is comparable in a non-dragon deck to Spell Shrivel.
Yeah, Clash of Wills is much more flexible.
Yeah, I wish we could all agree to use "well-positioned/poorly-positioned" when that's what we mean, and save "strictly better/worse" for those rare cases where it's actually true (as in Counterspell v. Cancel).
I'm not trying to be pedantic either, but counterspells in Standard is a weird and complicated topic that's hard to clearly define, so we should be more careful about our claims... Silumgar's Scorn is an excellent case study: you can easily say, "yeah, it's awesome if you have a dragon but it's just a strictly worse Force Spike otherwise!" when the fact of the matter is, at the moment, if you have a deck that wants efficient counterspells Dragonlord Ojutai is very likely to be its win condition. So a (competitive) non-dragon deck that's looking for a counterspell is not necessarily a thing?
I think it's a really interesting problem and it's the right way to go for Standard; very few catchalls and a lot of things that get better or worse based on the meta. You can't just write up a draw-go deck in an afternoon; you have to think really hard about what people are playing and tweak from week to week. As for Horribly Awry, I've tried it a bit with very limited success. I think I'd rather just lean on black for my removal, even without Bile Blight and Hero's Downfall than go out of my way to line that thing up with there threats. In my meta at least it's a lot better on paper than it is in practice.
Why does Awry make you angry? Is it how incredibly niche it is? Or how it has such a wasted name on such a lackluster card? Was it because it got your hope up that exile eldrazi control would be a thing and now we are here just ramping it Ulamog's? Because...that's why I dislike it.
No. I meant I forgot about Awry until you mentioned it. My anger was directed towards the new card.
Basically in most situations, Shrivel is strictly better than the new Dissipate.
Why does Awry make you angry? Is it how incredibly niche it is? Or how it has such a wasted name on such a lackluster card? Was it because it got your hope up that exile eldrazi control would be a thing and now we are here just ramping it Ulamog's? Because...that's why I dislike it.
No. I meant I forgot about Awry until you mentioned it. My anger was directed towards the new card.
Basically in most situations, Shrivel is strictly better than the new Dissipate.
Come on, man. At this point you have to be trolling or something.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
The Eldrazi are likely only sealed as they have impacted the cards that one would think are standard for expansions (they got the cancel variant instead of the Allies getting it). So chances are they will be back when someone like Ob triggers it.
I think using Horribly Awry has just scarred me in ways that I've yet to come back from. It isn't that Spell Shrivel is bad. Just that it isn't enough to enable our favorite nullifier. Now with this devoid Dissipate knockoff (honestly I was just hoping for a reprint but hey, this is marginally better), we might have enough between Fathom Feeder, Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, and Devoidipate to live the dream of pretending Ulamog's Nullifier is just as useful as mystic snake.
There are an overwhelmingly large amount of counterspells in the format right now, and mindswipe hasn't gone anywhere.
I'd probably try Grixis to try and get some use out of Ulamog's Nullifier
None of those cards are strictly better.
To avoid the strictly better argument, let's assume he meant that those other cards are actually legitimately playable compared to Spell Shrivel. The exile clause very rarely if ever matters in standard, considering next to no processors actually see any play. Before we had Eldrazi, we only had Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor that even remotely cared about exile. You'd play 4 Clash of Wills before the 1st shrivel for example. For pay 3 mana for what I can get better for 2 and below?
Rally the Ancestors cares about exile quite a bit. Not that that made Spell Shrivel great, but I think the state of Standard counterspells is such that everything is very situational and matchup-dependent. I can see a lot of edge cases where you might want a Spell Shrivel or two in your sideboard, depending on the meta... but this is quite a bit more reliable, obviously.
@ LordOrgodemir: Now you mentioned Horribly Awry, this card makes me angrier. I'm sure PV would have felt the same upon seeing this card.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
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StaffWhy does Awry make you angry? Is it how incredibly niche it is? Or how it has such a wasted name on such a lackluster card? Was it because it got your hope up that exile eldrazi control would be a thing and now we are here just ramping it Ulamog's? Because...that's why I dislike it.
Maybe...
Three mana is still a lot for a counter in Modern/Legacy/Vintage, especially for something that is functionally identical to Cancel in most circumstances. The main value of "exile target spell" is bypassing "cannot be countered" clauses, which currently are virtually impossible to bypass. Giving, say, Modern control decks an out to RG Tron hardcasting Emrakul would have a notable impact on Modern, but not, by my estimation, a particularly format-shaking one.
3 CMC "Exile Target Spell" would add an interesting tool to add to non-rotating formats, but it might not even be worth the sideboard slot. I think it would have been safe to print.
They don't even counter the same set of things! I'm not even trying to be pedantic about strictly better (although you could just say "better" if that's what you mean). Disdainful Stroke and Dispel don't counter the same things. Silumgar's Scorn is comparable in a non-dragon deck to Spell Shrivel.
Yeah, Clash of Wills is much more flexible.
Come on, man. "Strictly better" is when there are no possible (or at least relevant) circumstances in which one card can be stronger than the other. That is clearly not the case here. Just say "better", or even "much better".
I think the problem with "Exile target spell" is that it would "counter" any spell whatsoever, whether it be uncounterable or not. Sort of like creature Venser, except instead of sending it back to your hand, it's permanent.
I think that's the point. Just about everything in magic has something that offsets it, but currently, "cannot be countered" has no answer other than Mindbreak Trap. Giving an otherwise mediocre counter the ability to bypass that defense would be an interesting design direction.
Also Time Stop. Venser, Shaper Savant, Ertai's Meddling, and Brutal Expulsion at least slow down uncounterable spells.
Yeah, I wish we could all agree to use "well-positioned/poorly-positioned" when that's what we mean, and save "strictly better/worse" for those rare cases where it's actually true (as in Counterspell v. Cancel).
I'm not trying to be pedantic either, but counterspells in Standard is a weird and complicated topic that's hard to clearly define, so we should be more careful about our claims... Silumgar's Scorn is an excellent case study: you can easily say, "yeah, it's awesome if you have a dragon but it's just a strictly worse Force Spike otherwise!" when the fact of the matter is, at the moment, if you have a deck that wants efficient counterspells Dragonlord Ojutai is very likely to be its win condition. So a (competitive) non-dragon deck that's looking for a counterspell is not necessarily a thing?
I think it's a really interesting problem and it's the right way to go for Standard; very few catchalls and a lot of things that get better or worse based on the meta. You can't just write up a draw-go deck in an afternoon; you have to think really hard about what people are playing and tweak from week to week. As for Horribly Awry, I've tried it a bit with very limited success. I think I'd rather just lean on black for my removal, even without Bile Blight and Hero's Downfall than go out of my way to line that thing up with there threats. In my meta at least it's a lot better on paper than it is in practice.
Basically in most situations, Shrivel is strictly better than the new Dissipate.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Come on, man. At this point you have to be trolling or something.
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Strictly_better
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG