With the current trend in aggressive creature based decks, what is the odds that Oath of Nissa is going to be a 4 of pseudo ponder? Whilst I admit that I dislike walkers as a part of magic I Really hope that super friends does not become a thing in standard. Can you imagine how expensive a deck made up of mythics only would be? Not to mention the 4/5 colour mana base.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Using Rares to enable Mythics - bravo Wizards you've done it again!
If this Standard season is expensive I can only imagine how expensive a "stuporfriends" deck will be
To be fair, these oaths will be played regardless of their ability to use their planeswalker buffs. Superfriends decks are always pretty damn expensive, simply because they are mythic heavy to begin with. The are hardly format deining. The super-friends cards are cards that honesty will see play on their own in most cases.
I would easily play Oath of Nissa regardless of whether or not I had planeswalkers in my deck. However, I dislike this push towards making a Mythic-heavy deck a potentially top tier deck. You're right, stuporfriends normally aren't top tier but I'm definitely put off by this possibility.
Oath of Nissa isn't supposed to enable 5color superfriends lists, or rather, those lists are silly enough that it no. At least not in standard. It's supposed to reduce the burden of all these CC cost walkers so they can actually gatewatch together. Now you can fit Nissa and Gideon in a deck together and have room for a third color or C(since you can spend your C as colored for the walkers. Obviously.) It's funny, cause I saw Oath of Nissa and the first deck that came to mind was Abzan Aggro. It can't hit thoughtseize or charm, but if your top 3 was all those you were gonna have a bad time anyway. Maybe the deck has a wider spell spread than I'm aware? I'll admit I know basically nothing about it other than it likes 4/5s.
The cards good. Superfriends is stupid. Slot it into your midrange for some land and creature filtering in your top 3 for 1 and go to town. Its good turn one. Its good late game. Its good.
Also someone already hit on this but the Oath art looks silly as hell. Also the oath idea itself is a bit silly. I like the planeswalker tech tho. It's really nice design space. I just wish it came in a set not named what this set is named. It's ridiculous. One five second event while the plane is crumbling around them is worth a whole set. Nicely summarizes what planeswalkers have done to magic lore in a sense, doesn't it?
I like the land. Crag Puca is one of my favorite cards. This is similar, but might actually be playable. But it's not Puca. Guess everything comes at a cost. If only it could be this but also be Puca.
Does anyone else find zero mana instant speed activated abilities tacky? It reminds me of old magic cards where they didn't really know how design cards. When was the last time we had an ability like this?
Blinking Spirit was printed in 8th Edition I think. Damn thing is almost impossible to kill - bar split second cards like sudden death/ shock.
The land: Cool idea, blew all the predictions on ability out of the water. Good in limited formats, likely standard, who knows about the rest until people start brewing.
Nissa's Oath (intentional switch) - This is amazeballz. Plays well in most formats. Chase rare of the set, I want at least two... (I do not even play constructed!)
msun: Knives scoop ice cream.
Highroller: No they don't, knives don't scoop. Spoons scoop.
msun: Well, knives SHOULD scoop icecream.
Highroller: We have spoons that do it. Moreover, the shape of a knife that would scoop ice cream would make it horrible for performing the functions of a knife.
msun: Highroller, you bring up spoons as though they were the utensil used for scooping ice cream.
Maybe I don't get it. I would think if you activate him, then pay his 0, then someone bolts in response, he would die. If you activate it again in response, then he's alive after bolt, but his activation on the stack will kill him. And of course activating him again will kill him. Did I miss something here?
Oath of Nissa seems very good. But one another note, would it have killed them to either make the manland a 4/1 to begin with or to give the ability a may clause so it can be aggressive while actually still dodging bolt? I mean, it costs 4 to activate.
^^^^^^This
They should have had it start as a 4/1 and then change to a 1/4 if needed. I would assume the only reason they did it was for damaged based removal because of awaken in standard. Or they could have made it activate for 1UR. As it is it's not great, but not terrible. The only problem I see with it is that it ports directly into twin and doesn't really fit any of the tempo based UR decks. If they were trying to make sure it wasn't too powerful for twin they actually did a very poor job. However, they have stated many times they don't test for modern, but I'm sure they at least keep it in the back of their minds.
I don't think the manland is necessarily "bad", because hitting for 4 is always nice out of a manland, however if your playing jeskai, grixis, basically any three color deck and not just izzet then all of the other manland choices are probably better. I haven't got around to testing it yet so this is all just theory from me at this point.
Give me an example of when you'd want Needle Spires over Wandering Fumarole.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
You should take that 1/4 body and be thankful it doesn't die to a gentle breeze unless you tell it to.
Thanks for answering that one for me. I haven't been on this topic in awhile. I was referencing Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tarpit more so than Needle Spire, but I am sure there are instances like these in which it is better. Context is always key as you have shown. Thanks to Galspanic as well for also answering.
On a similar topic. I have been testing Wandering Fumarole the last couple of days and have been pleantly surprised with how well it has been performing. I will preface this by saying that I play jeskai prowess and can't really play Celestial Colonnade because I only have room for one manland in my manabase and my deck is more aggressive/tempo. I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but it has performed better than I had originally anticipated. If it continues to test well I will be more than happy to admit that I was wrong about the card initially. I still think most three color decks will want colonnade or tarpit, but there are certain decks (twin, prowess, etc) that will actually utilize this card. I am speaking of modern as I don't play standard very often.
Once ppl figure out how it works though, it will not be able to take a lightning bolt.
P1: pays 0 to switch power and toughness
P2: in response casts Electrolyze, 1 damage to the land, 1 to player
At this point P1 can switch in response as they please, but at some point the land is going to take the 1 damage and then switch its power and toughness.
If it was 4/1, it would die from the damage, if it was 1/4 it would take 1 then switch to 4/1 and die.
I guess there are multiple reasons they resort to the power/toughness switch ability in blue/red things, but the way it works out is just weird for this reason, especially after m2010. It might flow better if it used a wording w/ its activation was like Primal Clay and it just became a 4/1 or a 1/4. Maybe not.
Land is basically 2UR to become a 4/4 that is worse in creature combat. Not great, but it is still an ETB tapped UR land with an upside.
Nissa's Oath will miss more often than people think, though it is solid.
It hits lands, creatures and walkers. It will hit land quite often. Its a green ponder.
It is not a Ponder. It will miss more than you think.
If 60% of your deck are hits, it will still miss 6.4% of the time.
It's also fairly dead lategame if you are in a boardstate where lands are dead.
It's ETB trigger is of a similar power level to Sleight of Hand, which was never a particularly good cantrip. Playable yes, but not actively good and certainly not something to ever compare to Ponder.
Land is basically 2UR to become a 4/4 that is worse in creature combat. Not great, but it is still an ETB tapped UR land with an upside.
Nissa's Oath will miss more often than people think, though it is solid.
It hits lands, creatures and walkers. It will hit land quite often. Its a green ponder.
It is not a Ponder. It will miss more than you think.
If 60% of your deck are hits, it will still miss 6.4% of the time.
It's also fairly dead lategame if you are in a boardstate where lands are dead.
It's ETB trigger is of a similar power level to Sleight of Hand, which was never a particularly good cantrip. Playable yes, but not actively good and certainly not something to ever compare to Ponder.
Lategame you can pick from three cards, not just a land. So it's not dead lategame.
Also, if 60% of your deck are hits, you've lowballed this card during deck construction. Put it in a deck with 80%+ hits.
That gives you 99.2% chance to hit, with 12/60 slots still for other stuff.
Thanks for answering that one for me. I haven't been on this topic in awhile. I was referencing Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tarpit more so than Needle Spire, but I am sure there are instances like these in which it is better. Context is always key as you have shown. Thanks to Galspanic as well for also answering.
WELL TO BE FAIR IT'S HARD TO COMPARE TO CREEPING TAR PIT.
CELESTIAL COLONNADE DOES ITS BEST BUT WE ALL KNOW WHO THE REAL BOSS OF THIS GYM IS.
But seriously, I'm just really mad Boros has to work with a card that doesn't compare all that favorably in the efficiency department to Ghitu Encampment and doesn't really have what it takes to be good until someone craps out a RW Tokens deck.
Also I'm not sure I'd put Fumarole in a tempo deck; in light of Fumarole's vulnerability to misplays you could end up on the nasty end of a tempo blowout, a major pitfall of the manlands that cost 4 or more to animate (and a major contributor to the attitude of "cheaper = better" with manland animation costs).
Land is only boltproof if you don't switch power and toughness. As soon as you go to switch power and toughness, and they respond with bolt, you can switch power and toughness alll you like, it'll still be dead, unless you pump it somehow.
Thanks for answering that one for me. I haven't been on this topic in awhile. I was referencing Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tarpit more so than Needle Spire, but I am sure there are instances like these in which it is better. Context is always key as you have shown. Thanks to Galspanic as well for also answering.
WELL TO BE FAIR IT'S HARD TO COMPARE TO CREEPING TAR PIT.
CELESTIAL COLONNADE DOES ITS BEST BUT WE ALL KNOW WHO THE REAL BOSS OF THIS GYM IS.
But seriously, I'm just really mad Boros has to work with a card that doesn't compare all that favorably in the efficiency department to Ghitu Encampment and doesn't really have what it takes to be good until someone craps out a RW Tokens deck.
Also I'm not sure I'd put Fumarole in a tempo deck; in light of Fumarole's vulnerability to misplays you could end up on the nasty end of a tempo blowout, a major pitfall of the manlands that cost 4 or more to animate (and a major contributor to the attitude of "cheaper = better" with manland animation costs).
I can't disagree with you here. I love the boss of the gym part. I too was none to pleased with the boros manland. It's predictable and weak for 4 mana. I justify don't see why the new ones had to be sooo much worse than the old ones. A little worse is fine, but some aren't comparable. I would have been a much better idea to make the fumarole start as a 4/1 and switch to 1/4 or make it a 3 activation cost.
As for the tempo deck part, you are correct it could be pretty nasty and is a bit pricey, but so far I found it to be better than expected. Mainly because if I do have to activate the land it's often at a point in the game where the opponent has no removal left in hand. Like I said before, I'm not sold on it but it has been better than I originally thought (however my original opinion was very low so I guess it had to be better than that). Fairie conclave is likely a better choice, but tapping for two colors is a huge plus. I am a firm believer in testing before making a final judgment so I will continue to give it a chance. My Faerire conclave is still sleeved up ready to replace it as soon as I flip the table when my opponent bolts my manland when I switch the power and toughness for lethal damage. If only tar-pit was UR. A man can dream.
Land is only boltproof if you don't switch power and toughness. As soon as you go to switch power and toughness, and they respond with bolt, you can switch power and toughness alll you like, it'll still be dead, unless you pump it somehow.
What? If you switch it back then it will survive the bolt.
Land is only boltproof if you don't switch power and toughness. As soon as you go to switch power and toughness, and they respond with bolt, you can switch power and toughness alll you like, it'll still be dead, unless you pump it somehow.
What? If you switch it back then it will survive the bolt.
No, it won't. Think about it.
If you activate the ability to switch from 1/4 to 4/1 and the opponent bolts the lands, the stack looks like:
-Bolt (on top)
-Switch (on the bottom)
if you let everything resolve, the land will die.
If you activate the switch-ability again, the stack looks like:
-Switch
-Bolt
-Switch
... and your land also dies.
Land is only boltproof if you don't switch power and toughness. As soon as you go to switch power and toughness, and they respond with bolt, you can switch power and toughness alll you like, it'll still be dead, unless you pump it somehow.
What? If you switch it back then it will survive the bolt.
No, it won't. Think about it.
If you activate the ability to switch from 1/4 to 4/1 and the opponent bolts the lands, the stack looks like:
-Bolt (on top)
-Switch (on the bottom)
if you let everything resolve, the land will die.
If you activate the switch-ability again, the stack looks like:
-Switch
-Bolt
-Switch
... and your land also dies.
damn, you're right, my bad. This card is even worse then I thought and I already thought it was pretty bad.
Land is basically 2UR to become a 4/4 that is worse in creature combat. Not great, but it is still an ETB tapped UR land with an upside.
Nissa's Oath will miss more often than people think, though it is solid.
It hits lands, creatures and walkers. It will hit land quite often. Its a green ponder.
It is not a Ponder. It will miss more than you think.
If 60% of your deck are hits, it will still miss 6.4% of the time.
It's also fairly dead lategame if you are in a boardstate where lands are dead.
It's ETB trigger is of a similar power level to Sleight of Hand, which was never a particularly good cantrip. Playable yes, but not actively good and certainly not something to ever compare to Ponder.
Missing on 1 out of 16 is not bad, but it not designed for decks that thin on targets. If you have a more reasonable 15 misses in the deck, the odds fall to about 1.3% of a miss, or about 1 out of 80. That's pretty negligible. On the flip side of that, it gives you 3 hits, which is much better than Sleight of Hand, on about 38% of its uses. It is still no Ponder but is closer to it in a reasonable deck than Sleight of Hand.
Wandering fumarole seems good enough to play. Yes they were a little more careful with this cycle of manlands, but I think that is ok.
I think this is a fine addition to the manland roster, and its cool that its a version of the card no one was really guessing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
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BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I would easily play Oath of Nissa regardless of whether or not I had planeswalkers in my deck. However, I dislike this push towards making a Mythic-heavy deck a potentially top tier deck. You're right, stuporfriends normally aren't top tier but I'm definitely put off by this possibility.
The cards good. Superfriends is stupid. Slot it into your midrange for some land and creature filtering in your top 3 for 1 and go to town. Its good turn one. Its good late game. Its good.
Also someone already hit on this but the Oath art looks silly as hell. Also the oath idea itself is a bit silly. I like the planeswalker tech tho. It's really nice design space. I just wish it came in a set not named what this set is named. It's ridiculous. One five second event while the plane is crumbling around them is worth a whole set. Nicely summarizes what planeswalkers have done to magic lore in a sense, doesn't it?
I like the land. Crag Puca is one of my favorite cards. This is similar, but might actually be playable. But it's not Puca. Guess everything comes at a cost. If only it could be this but also be Puca.
Blinking Spirit was printed in 8th Edition I think. Damn thing is almost impossible to kill - bar split second cards like sudden death/ shock.
The land: Cool idea, blew all the predictions on ability out of the water. Good in limited formats, likely standard, who knows about the rest until people start brewing.
Nissa's Oath (intentional switch) - This is amazeballz. Plays well in most formats. Chase rare of the set, I want at least two... (I do not even play constructed!)
EDIT: nvm, this has been beaten to death already.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Where's a Riptide Chimera in the format when you actually want one.
Thanks for answering that one for me. I haven't been on this topic in awhile. I was referencing Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tarpit more so than Needle Spire, but I am sure there are instances like these in which it is better. Context is always key as you have shown. Thanks to Galspanic as well for also answering.
On a similar topic. I have been testing Wandering Fumarole the last couple of days and have been pleantly surprised with how well it has been performing. I will preface this by saying that I play jeskai prowess and can't really play Celestial Colonnade because I only have room for one manland in my manabase and my deck is more aggressive/tempo. I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but it has performed better than I had originally anticipated. If it continues to test well I will be more than happy to admit that I was wrong about the card initially. I still think most three color decks will want colonnade or tarpit, but there are certain decks (twin, prowess, etc) that will actually utilize this card. I am speaking of modern as I don't play standard very often.
It is not a Ponder. It will miss more than you think.
If 60% of your deck are hits, it will still miss 6.4% of the time.
It's also fairly dead lategame if you are in a boardstate where lands are dead.
It's ETB trigger is of a similar power level to Sleight of Hand, which was never a particularly good cantrip. Playable yes, but not actively good and certainly not something to ever compare to Ponder.
Lategame you can pick from three cards, not just a land. So it's not dead lategame.
Also, if 60% of your deck are hits, you've lowballed this card during deck construction. Put it in a deck with 80%+ hits.
That gives you 99.2% chance to hit, with 12/60 slots still for other stuff.
( 0.0 )
=O ((U/R)) O=
(")(")
I'm an AI making Magic cards.
http://www.staalmedia.nl/nexus/#generate
WELL TO BE FAIR IT'S HARD TO COMPARE TO CREEPING TAR PIT.
CELESTIAL COLONNADE DOES ITS BEST BUT WE ALL KNOW WHO THE REAL BOSS OF THIS GYM IS.
But seriously, I'm just really mad Boros has to work with a card that doesn't compare all that favorably in the efficiency department to Ghitu Encampment and doesn't really have what it takes to be good until someone craps out a RW Tokens deck.
Also I'm not sure I'd put Fumarole in a tempo deck; in light of Fumarole's vulnerability to misplays you could end up on the nasty end of a tempo blowout, a major pitfall of the manlands that cost 4 or more to animate (and a major contributor to the attitude of "cheaper = better" with manland animation costs).
I can't disagree with you here. I love the boss of the gym part. I too was none to pleased with the boros manland. It's predictable and weak for 4 mana. I justify don't see why the new ones had to be sooo much worse than the old ones. A little worse is fine, but some aren't comparable. I would have been a much better idea to make the fumarole start as a 4/1 and switch to 1/4 or make it a 3 activation cost.
As for the tempo deck part, you are correct it could be pretty nasty and is a bit pricey, but so far I found it to be better than expected. Mainly because if I do have to activate the land it's often at a point in the game where the opponent has no removal left in hand. Like I said before, I'm not sold on it but it has been better than I originally thought (however my original opinion was very low so I guess it had to be better than that). Fairie conclave is likely a better choice, but tapping for two colors is a huge plus. I am a firm believer in testing before making a final judgment so I will continue to give it a chance. My Faerire conclave is still sleeved up ready to replace it as soon as I flip the table when my opponent bolts my manland when I switch the power and toughness for lethal damage. If only tar-pit was UR. A man can dream.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
No, it won't. Think about it.
If you activate the ability to switch from 1/4 to 4/1 and the opponent bolts the lands, the stack looks like:
-Bolt (on top)
-Switch (on the bottom)
if you let everything resolve, the land will die.
If you activate the switch-ability again, the stack looks like:
-Switch
-Bolt
-Switch
... and your land also dies.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I think this is a fine addition to the manland roster, and its cool that its a version of the card no one was really guessing.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.