If I can guarantee that the mode has to 'hit' for discard 2, sac a creature, or sac a PW, then, creature tokens aside, there is no bad mode for this card. I understand that it's worse because you don't always get the mode you need, but it's not like it's bad.
What about the times when you can't guarantee it? The biggest problem with punisher cards is that deck slots in the best decks are generally too tight for cards that are good just 'sometimes'; they'd rather have a card that helps them deal with their bad matchups more effectively, since the returns on optimizing your winning matchups diminish incredibly quickly. In this case, this card gets better the more card advantage you have against an opponent, and worse the less you have; that is the definition of a card black doesn't want to be playing.
Urza's Throbbing Manhood1R
Instant (R)
Urza's Throbbing Manhood deals 13 damage to target player unless that player sacrifices all permanents he or she controls.
It would be obscenely overpowered. Its still a punisher mechanic, its entirely their choice, but both options are completely undercosted (actually, they can't be printed at almost any cost due to cheat-in mechanics).
Now say the kind of card wizards would realistically print:
Urza's This-doesn't-happen-to-me-normally1RR
Sorcery (R)
Destroy target creature, artifact or land unless its controller has ~ deal 4 damage to him/her.
It suddenly becomes a mediocre, weak card, because this was costed poorly
The problem isn't inherent to the punisher mechanic intrinsically, its just a product of how wizards has historically printed some real stinkers with this mechanic, probably a result of them simply not grasping how to price it properly. When we decide to arbitrarily exclude counterexamples like FoF / Gifts, its just a no true scotsman thing. Even if there weren't any good punisher mechanics in all of MTG history, it wouldn't change the fact that they easily could print one.
But like so often before, this thing is garbage, a worse blightning for nearly twice the cost.
Reflector Mage is awesome. Flayer Drone and Mindmelter are good. Relentless Hunter wishes it had haste, but is kind of 'meh' as is. Joraga Auxiliary is just aweful. They could have given Auxiliary vigilance and reduced activate cost by 1 and it would still only be 'okay'. I wish the mage and hunter had ally though. That feels like missed opportunity.
Curious about something. How would Reflector Mage work against a general in EDH? If you tried to bounce your opponent's general and they chose to put it into the Command Zone, would they still be restricted from casting it next turn? If so this card is really nasty in Brago and other blink decks!
Something I didn't see covered in this thread (I might have missed the post or forgotten whose it is) that I think bears reminding... assuming I am not remembering the rule on it incorrectly:
There are not always "six" options available to the opponent, necessarily. They HAVE to literally do an 'unless' option in order for them to avoid the hit to their life total. No creature? Can't choose to sacrifice it. Same for planeswalker and discarding two cards (i.e. must have 2+ cards in hand to do this). This isn't a card that allows chicanery in the form of an empty board/hand to avoid dying if at <= 10 life, just to name a specific case.
Curious about something. How would Reflector Mage work against a general in EDH? If you tried to bounce your opponent's general and they chose to put it into the Command Zone, would they still be restricted from casting it next turn? If so this card is really nasty in Brago and other blink decks!
Yes, that would work as you imagine. It's not a replacement effect based on the creature returning to their hand, so whether the creature goes to the command zone instead doesn't affect Reflector Mage's second ability.
Curious about something. How would Reflector Mage work against a general in EDH? If you tried to bounce your opponent's general and they chose to put it into the Command Zone, would they still be restricted from casting it next turn? If so this card is really nasty in Brago and other blink decks!
Yes, that would work as you imagine. It's not a replacement effect based on the creature returning to their hand, so whether the creature goes to the command zone instead doesn't affect Reflector Mage's second ability.
Nice. I thought as much but wanted to make sure. Such an awesome card. I almost wish it were rare so it could maybe have Flash. Guess that would be too powerful though.
Curious about something. How would Reflector Mage work against a general in EDH? If you tried to bounce your opponent's general and they chose to put it into the Command Zone, would they still be restricted from casting it next turn? If so this card is really nasty in Brago and other blink decks!
Yes, that would work as you imagine. It's not a replacement effect based on the creature returning to their hand, so whether the creature goes to the command zone instead doesn't affect Reflector Mage's second ability.
Nice. I thought as much but wanted to make sure. Such an awesome card. I almost wish it were rare so it could maybe have Flash. Guess that would be too powerful though.
Eh... with it's current wording flashing it in is no better than flashing in any other bounce creature, since doing so on your opponents turn essentially negates the "until your next turn" clause on it.
Every time we get a new punisher card people still try to justify them as good cards.
but theres nothing implicitly good nor bad about punisher cards. They don't have to be bad. Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven are both variants on the punisher mechanic where the opponent has a choice. And they're plainly overpowered.
They're overpowered because they're tutors/draw spells where any choice your opponent makes will typically benefit you, since it's so easy to access cards in your graveyard in the formats where these cards are played. Anyway you slice it, you get good stuff somewhere.
This doesn't give you anything; it hurts your opponent in a way they control, giving them a chance to manage their own resources and play to their outs.
I know your point was a bit tangential to whether this card specifically is bad; I just wanted to highlight that FoF/Gifts are really bad parallels because they're good for reasons that aren't in play for most of these cards.
Urza's Throbbing Manhood1R
Instant (R)
Urza's Throbbing Manhood deals 13 damage to target player unless that player sacrifices all permanents he or she controls.
It would be obscenely overpowered. Its still a punisher mechanic, its entirely their choice, but both options are completely undercosted (actually, they can't be printed at almost any cost due to cheat-in mechanics).
Now say the kind of card wizards would realistically print:
Urza's This-doesn't-happen-to-me-normally1RR
Sorcery (R)
Destroy target creature, artifact or land unless its controller has ~ deal 4 damage to him/her.
It suddenly becomes a mediocre, weak card, because this was costed poorly
The problem isn't inherent to the punisher mechanic intrinsically, its just a product of how wizards has historically printed some real stinkers with this mechanic, probably a result of them simply not grasping how to price it properly. When we decide to arbitrarily exclude counterexamples like FoF / Gifts, its just a no true scotsman thing. Even if there weren't any good punisher mechanics in all of MTG history, it wouldn't change the fact that they easily could print one.
But like so often before, this thing is garbage, a worse blightning for nearly twice the cost.
even though you're right, this doesn't apply to the card in question because not all modes are overpowered for 3BB
that said, should Remorseless Punishment cost 2B and it would be crazy good, even if you don't get to choose what it does, any of the 10 modes are far above what you get for 2B
at 3BB, it competes with all other spells that cost 3BB, and Priest of the Blood Rite, for example would be a lot more relevant play most of the time...
at the end of the day, you're right, the issue is not with the punisher mechanic but with the fact that the card actually should gain a ton of power because you don't choose it's modes.
for a punisher card to actually be playable, all it's modes MUST be far above the curve, and along with that, all it's modes needs to be playable in the same deck and that's why Vexing Devil was the only one that saw a good amount of competitive play.
Vexing Devil have 2 very aggresive modes, both of with are highly playable in any aggro deck that plays red.
it does the "same thing" every time, puts pressure in the battlefield.
even your overpowered example is infinitely worse than each of those sides.
If your opponent has 14+ life and is preparing to alpha strike you for the win, they'll gladly take those 13 damage
if you play that in turn 2, they're very likely to lose 2 lands and a 2 drop instead of 13 damage....
it all depends on the deck though.
either side would be insanely better than what you came up, that's why punisher cards mostly suck
Desecration Demon will always be in play. It is not a one time thing. Vexing Devil has never been good, and I challenge anyone to point out a single GP Top 8 with a Vexing Devil. If you want to qualify counterspells as punisher cards then I see no reason to go any further in the conversation.
Also, he did say in the strictest sense, and he is correct that strictly speaking, cards with the rhystic mechanic are indeed a variation of punisher in which one choice is pay mana. Leak and Daze therefore do qualify as punisher mechanic spells, but they are playable because a) they tax a resource that exhausts far more reliably in the early game than life and b) you can decide to only offer that choice when they are unable to actually choose the mana payment. There are plenty of points in a game where Daze would be no good, because your opponent will simply choose to not pay the and it sees play only because the early game is so important in legacy.
On the topic of remorseless punishment, bad card is bad. There isn't enough upside in every possible mode at 5 mana, and there are too many options for your opponent to choose from to effectively control which ones they will pick reliably.
Cards I do like from this batch of spoils? Reflector Mage is sweet. It's been awhile since constructed has played with Man-o'-War type cards, but I like this take on it. Lacking flash is likely to keep it out of serious constructed play. Mindmelter is chuckles. Phantom Warrior/Azure Mage hybrid is an interesting design, but feels like it should have had ingest. Flayer Drone feels like a potential playable in a more devoid heavy rally deck or potentially in either colorless aggro or something with from beyond and catacomb sifter. Not too strong, but maybe just good enough to be a cog.
Desecration Demon will always be in play. It is not a one time thing.
I get that Remorseless Punishment is a one time punisher card, thus it's easier to compare with other one time punishers, but nothing in your initial post mentioned anything about only discussing one time punisher cards.
Vexing Devil has never been good, and I challenge anyone to point out a single GP Top 8 with a Vexing Devil.
Grand Prix Kobe 2014. 1st place, 4-of, and maindeck.
If you want to qualify counterspells as punisher cards then I see no reason to go any further in the conversation.
If you mean that cards which say "counter target spell" can never qualify as punisher cards, then I'd like to point out Perplex. If you mean that tax counters like Mana Leak and Daze are functionally counterspells, then in a practical sense I agree. Again, I was using a very, very strict definition of punisher card which is giving the opponent choices between two or more unfavorable outcomes. By the text, tax counters do exactly that even if in practice they are (usually) not used that way. Semantics aside, the only reason I chose tax counters as an example is to demonstrate how a successful punisher card could work. By narrowing down choices, the potency of a punisher card increases. If for instance Remorseless Punishment didn't care about creatures, it could have been a serviceable finisher in a discard deck. If it didn't care about discard, it could have worked as a creatureless deck hoser.
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I didn't say it was. I said it was a card where your opponent's the only one who makes any decisions about what happens after you play it.
What about the times when you can't guarantee it? The biggest problem with punisher cards is that deck slots in the best decks are generally too tight for cards that are good just 'sometimes'; they'd rather have a card that helps them deal with their bad matchups more effectively, since the returns on optimizing your winning matchups diminish incredibly quickly. In this case, this card gets better the more card advantage you have against an opponent, and worse the less you have; that is the definition of a card black doesn't want to be playing.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Urza's Throbbing Manhood 1R
Instant (R)
Urza's Throbbing Manhood deals 13 damage to target player unless that player sacrifices all permanents he or she controls.
It would be obscenely overpowered. Its still a punisher mechanic, its entirely their choice, but both options are completely undercosted (actually, they can't be printed at almost any cost due to cheat-in mechanics).
Now say the kind of card wizards would realistically print:
Urza's This-doesn't-happen-to-me-normally 1RR
Sorcery (R)
Destroy target creature, artifact or land unless its controller has ~ deal 4 damage to him/her.
It suddenly becomes a mediocre, weak card, because this was costed poorly
The problem isn't inherent to the punisher mechanic intrinsically, its just a product of how wizards has historically printed some real stinkers with this mechanic, probably a result of them simply not grasping how to price it properly. When we decide to arbitrarily exclude counterexamples like FoF / Gifts, its just a no true scotsman thing. Even if there weren't any good punisher mechanics in all of MTG history, it wouldn't change the fact that they easily could print one.
But like so often before, this thing is garbage, a worse blightning for nearly twice the cost.
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There are not always "six" options available to the opponent, necessarily. They HAVE to literally do an 'unless' option in order for them to avoid the hit to their life total. No creature? Can't choose to sacrifice it. Same for planeswalker and discarding two cards (i.e. must have 2+ cards in hand to do this). This isn't a card that allows chicanery in the form of an empty board/hand to avoid dying if at <= 10 life, just to name a specific case.
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Nice. I thought as much but wanted to make sure. Such an awesome card. I almost wish it were rare so it could maybe have Flash. Guess that would be too powerful though.
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Eh... with it's current wording flashing it in is no better than flashing in any other bounce creature, since doing so on your opponents turn essentially negates the "until your next turn" clause on it.
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Let's pray that it is not.
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They're overpowered because they're tutors/draw spells where any choice your opponent makes will typically benefit you, since it's so easy to access cards in your graveyard in the formats where these cards are played. Anyway you slice it, you get good stuff somewhere.
This doesn't give you anything; it hurts your opponent in a way they control, giving them a chance to manage their own resources and play to their outs.
I know your point was a bit tangential to whether this card specifically is bad; I just wanted to highlight that FoF/Gifts are really bad parallels because they're good for reasons that aren't in play for most of these cards.
even though you're right, this doesn't apply to the card in question because not all modes are overpowered for 3BB
that said, should Remorseless Punishment cost 2B and it would be crazy good, even if you don't get to choose what it does, any of the 10 modes are far above what you get for 2B
at 3BB, it competes with all other spells that cost 3BB, and Priest of the Blood Rite, for example would be a lot more relevant play most of the time...
at the end of the day, you're right, the issue is not with the punisher mechanic but with the fact that the card actually should gain a ton of power because you don't choose it's modes.
for a punisher card to actually be playable, all it's modes MUST be far above the curve, and along with that, all it's modes needs to be playable in the same deck and that's why Vexing Devil was the only one that saw a good amount of competitive play.
Vexing Devil have 2 very aggresive modes, both of with are highly playable in any aggro deck that plays red.
it does the "same thing" every time, puts pressure in the battlefield.
even your overpowered example is infinitely worse than each of those sides.
If your opponent has 14+ life and is preparing to alpha strike you for the win, they'll gladly take those 13 damage
if you play that in turn 2, they're very likely to lose 2 lands and a 2 drop instead of 13 damage....
it all depends on the deck though.
either side would be insanely better than what you came up, that's why punisher cards mostly suck
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Also, he did say in the strictest sense, and he is correct that strictly speaking, cards with the rhystic mechanic are indeed a variation of punisher in which one choice is pay mana. Leak and Daze therefore do qualify as punisher mechanic spells, but they are playable because a) they tax a resource that exhausts far more reliably in the early game than life and b) you can decide to only offer that choice when they are unable to actually choose the mana payment. There are plenty of points in a game where Daze would be no good, because your opponent will simply choose to not pay the and it sees play only because the early game is so important in legacy.
On the topic of remorseless punishment, bad card is bad. There isn't enough upside in every possible mode at 5 mana, and there are too many options for your opponent to choose from to effectively control which ones they will pick reliably.
Cards I do like from this batch of spoils?
Reflector Mage is sweet. It's been awhile since constructed has played with Man-o'-War type cards, but I like this take on it. Lacking flash is likely to keep it out of serious constructed play.
Mindmelter is chuckles. Phantom Warrior/Azure Mage hybrid is an interesting design, but feels like it should have had ingest.
Flayer Drone feels like a potential playable in a more devoid heavy rally deck or potentially in either colorless aggro or something with from beyond and catacomb sifter. Not too strong, but maybe just good enough to be a cog.
Grand Prix Kobe 2014. 1st place, 4-of, and maindeck.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkob14
If you mean that cards which say "counter target spell" can never qualify as punisher cards, then I'd like to point out Perplex. If you mean that tax counters like Mana Leak and Daze are functionally counterspells, then in a practical sense I agree. Again, I was using a very, very strict definition of punisher card which is giving the opponent choices between two or more unfavorable outcomes. By the text, tax counters do exactly that even if in practice they are (usually) not used that way. Semantics aside, the only reason I chose tax counters as an example is to demonstrate how a successful punisher card could work. By narrowing down choices, the potency of a punisher card increases. If for instance Remorseless Punishment didn't care about creatures, it could have been a serviceable finisher in a discard deck. If it didn't care about discard, it could have worked as a creatureless deck hoser.