If this is real (and it is a big IF), they would need to distribute a very large number of the new basic lands. After all, basic lands are usually lent by the stores were we play draft and sealed. Anyone drafting Kozilek would want at least 6-8 of these Wastes... which probably will often be stolen by people seeking these basic lands for their own use.
The art seems very legit however...
I think it is more likely that these new lands would not be made free to add to your deck like basic lands and instead you would be required to draft them or open them in your sealed pool like any other common from the set in order to play them in your limited deck. I'm sure they will have other ways to add <> to your mana pool for cards that need it just like they support other mechanics in the set.
Probably cards with <> can be casted sacrificied Eldrazi Scion tokens... So mostly probably the <> can only be paid with colorless, and the <> added to the mana pool can only pay for colorless from colorless spells and abilities, thus Shrine of the Forsaken Gods not adding <> ( and not to spoil the new mechanic).
OR a crackpot theory of mine, that while the new Kozilek and Waste are legit, Mirrorpool is fake!
This is far easier to accept than any other weird explanation on how <> works. It would make it's design much cleaner and, being more simple, would be easier to justify the lack of reminder text on any of these cards.
I mean, we have seen many different mana symbols (Snow, Hybrid, Colorless Hybrid, Phyrexian), but none of them could be added to your mana pool.
Also, Mirrorpool is pretty pushed for a land I guess.
Should be pretty obvious that <> means "can only be paid with colorless mana" if this is real. As for why Wastes generates <>, it's because that's much prettier to put on a card than a big fat (1). People speculating otherwise are clearly ignoring the (8) in Kozilek's mana cost, here.
My biggest interest in this is, does this mean that cards that can generate mana of any color now generate colorless mana?
Also, might not be the place for it, but I think we're going to see that the Eldrazi aren't exactly malevolent, or that they had an overall positive effect on Zendikar. We'll see which, I guess.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, about collectors numbers: Colorless Spells comes first. In BFZ an 300 cards set [c]Kozilek's Channeler[\c] is 10/299 , soo if the new Kozilek is 4/184 it means we have less colorless this set ( but i could see lots of Kozileks' Eldrazi... For the new Basic Land being 189/189 it is alright cause Basic lands are the last cards from sets, and as this set hoppefully will not have other basics, it is the last ( and if there are other variations from it, they will go before this one.).
It also runs into logical problems, like X or effects that cost or add large amounts of colorless mana. How would they template with this design? How would Kyren Toy be retemplated for oracle? Add X plus one amount of <> to your mana pool? Yikes
T, Remove any number of charge counters from Kyren Toy: Add to your mana pool an amount of <> equal to the number of charge counters removed plus 1.
Yep, and all the storage lands from Fallen Empires and Time Spiral. I absolutely agree it's a huge change to make (especially with the reminder about every colorless mana rock ever too), and that alone should be a deal-breaker, but even that seems more logical than anything else.
OR a crackpot theory of mine, that while the new Kozilek and Waste are legit, Mirrorpool is fake! Waste happens to add <> and not 1 just as a reminder on the full art lands, but that is the only place <> appears as mana production and not a cost -- lands, mana rocks, etc will still say "Add 1..." I mean, the first two were actual images, while Mirrorpool is a picture of a screen. Stranger things have happened, why couldn't the first two be legit leaks, and the third one a follow-on fake?
As possible as it is that Mirrorpool is a fake, there is just as little evidence of that as there is that Kozilek and Wastes are fake. If they are fakes, the faker made no mistakes in templating, and managed to find professional-tier art as well as hi-res custom card templates (which are VERY hard to come by today btw). And on top of that, they made a new mana symbol and came up with a clever solution to Barry's Land that could actually possibly work. And if that's not enough, Kozilek and Mirrorpool both feel like real cards, cards WotC would actually print today given their current design philosophies.
My original point is that there's no more reason to think Mirrorpool is fake than there is to think the other two are.
My second point is that I would be VERY surprised if these were fake because we simply have not seen fakes of this quality before.
Duals with no drawbacks that also tap for <>? But seriously though.
Tap for <R> or <G>, and you can only spend it to cast the (roughly) 10-20 cards in OGW with that in their casting costs? That would be the biggest troll in WotC history (and therefore incredibly awesome).
While I cannot say that any of these cards are real or fake, I am going to assume, for the sake of discussion, that they are real.
It is my opinion that <> does NOT mean "colorless mana only." I think it means <>, just like {W}, {U}, {B}, {R}, and {G}. This is not a new color, because the border for this Kozilek is colorless, and this card does not have Devoid. It is simply like one of the five colored mana symbols, except it is colorless. <> can pay for {1}, just like the five colors can, but not vice-versa.
This would mean that no previous mana sources would need to be changed, since this is a new mana symbol. Sol Ring still produces 2 colorless, not 2 <> mana. Kozilek will require 2 sources that tap for <>, not 8 colorless plus a Sol Ring.
I really do not like the fact the new Kozilek requires waste mana. That really rules him out of any Cloudpost type approach. Irksome.
Keep in mind that it's still possible that <> can be paid with colorless mana of any kind. That doesn't rule out Cloudpost. In fact, it quite encourages it.
While we're speculating about how <> works, I should bring up Herald of Kozilek. Assuming <> will replace 1 in all mana-generating abilities, how does this affect cost-reduction effects? Does Herald of Kozilek now reduce colorless costs by <>, or by one mana that can be payed with any color? My money is on the latter, but it increases the confusion around <> a bit.
Honestly, although converting every colorless-producing card in Magic's history will be tedious, it is absolutely doable without major issue.
That goes beyond "tedious" and into "useless". I'm in the camp that this is intended to be parasitic (it didn't even appear in the "big" set) and not evergreen. The idea being, the "6th color" implication would seem huge while actually being quite small.
I'm pretty sure Iso is right with the <> symbol in Kozilek meaning it has to be paid with only colorless and not WUBRG and if so it will still be able to work in cloudpost.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
With the banning of twin comes the end of an era...
Duals with no drawbacks that also tap for <>? But seriously though.
Tap for <R> or <G>, and you can only spend it to cast the (roughly) 10-20 cards in OGW with that in their casting costs? That would be the biggest troll in WotC history (and therefore incredibly awesome).
No, I mean
Land - Mountain Forest
(tap to add R or G to your mana pool)
and
Tap to add <> to your mana pool.
Duals with no drawbacks that also tap for <>? But seriously though.
Tap for <R> or <G>, and you can only spend it to cast the (roughly) 10-20 cards in OGW with that in their casting costs? That would be the biggest troll in WotC history (and therefore incredibly awesome).
No, I mean
Land - Mountain Forest
(tap to add R or G to your mana pool)
and
Tap to add <> to your mana pool.
Ok many just cant put something into laymans terms. the distinction for what (1) and <> are already exist they just are shown with the same symbol
Now they seem to be showing (1) and other numbered symbols as generic mana whilst <> is colorless mana WUBRG<> all usable in generic mana. Cost reduction effects are also simpler if your say what it does in that "blah blah blah costs one generic mana less to cast
Duals with no drawbacks that also tap for <>? But seriously though.
Tap for <R> or <G>, and you can only spend it to cast the (roughly) 10-20 cards in OGW with that in their casting costs? That would be the biggest troll in WotC history (and therefore incredibly awesome).
No, I mean
Land - Mountain Forest
(tap to add R or G to your mana pool)
and
Tap to add <> to your mana pool.
Should be pretty obvious that <> means "can only be paid with colorless mana" if this is real. As for why Wastes generates <>, it's because that's much prettier to put on a card than a big fat (1). People speculating otherwise are clearly ignoring the (8) in Kozilek's mana cost, here.
My biggest interest in this is, does this mean that cards that can generate mana of any color now generate colorless mana?
Also, might not be the place for it, but I think we're going to see that the Eldrazi aren't exactly malevolent, or that they had an overall positive effect on Zendikar. We'll see which, I guess.
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
First, there is absolutely no reason to have Kozilek's cost be <><> plus 8 generic mana if <> means "can only be paid with colorless mana." That cost would functionally be identical to 10 colorless mana in 99.9% of games. In what game have you ever seen someone have access to ten mana, but all of them colored? That's not a cost restriction, it's just a gimick. Second, your suggestion paired with the templating on mirropool would require errata to every colorless mana producer ever! That's a no go! Never gonna happen! Thran dynamo will not read "T: add <><><> to your mana pool" next time it's printed! And if it did, think of the confusion, especially for new players, unless this is an evergreen mechanic. New players will not learn to match <> with colorless mana costs. Nope. This is snow mana pure and simple. <> in a cost means it has to be paid with a card that generates <>.
Second, your suggestion paired with the templating on mirropool would require errata to every colorless mana producer ever! That's a no go! Never gonna happen!
It's not like they just issued errata on every modal spell ever in Khans of Tarkir, right?
OR a crackpot theory of mine, that while the new Kozilek and Waste are legit, Mirrorpool is fake!
This is far easier to accept than any other weird explanation on how <> works. It would make it's design much cleaner and, being more simple, would be easier to justify the lack of reminder text on any of these cards.
I mean, we have seen many different mana symbols (Snow, Hybrid, Colorless Hybrid, Phyrexian), but none of them could be added to your mana pool.
Also, Mirrorpool is pretty pushed for a land I guess.
The way wastes is templated clearly has it saying "T: Add <> to your mana pool", so Mirrorpool doesn't do anything new past that
Should be pretty obvious that <> means "can only be paid with colorless mana" if this is real. As for why Wastes generates <>, it's because that's much prettier to put on a card than a big fat (1). People speculating otherwise are clearly ignoring the (8) in Kozilek's mana cost, here.
My biggest interest in this is, does this mean that cards that can generate mana of any color now generate colorless mana?
Also, might not be the place for it, but I think we're going to see that the Eldrazi aren't exactly malevolent, or that they had an overall positive effect on Zendikar. We'll see which, I guess.
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
First, there is absolutely no reason to have Kozilek's cost be <><> plus 8 generic mana if <> means "can only be paid with colorless mana." That cost would functionally be identical to 10 colorless mana in 99.9% of games. In what game have you ever seen someone have access to ten mana, but all of them colored? That's not a cost restriction, it's just a gimick. Second, your suggestion paired with the templating on mirropool would require errata to every colorless mana producer ever! That's a no go! Never gonna happen! Thran dynamo will not read "T: add <><><> to your mana pool" next time it's printed! And if it did, think of the confusion, especially for new players, unless this is an evergreen mechanic. New players will not learn to match <> with colorless mana costs. Nope. This is snow mana pure and simple. <> in a cost means it has to be paid with a card that generates <>.
Also, in the vast majority of games played by anyone ever in which a player has access to 10+ mana, most of that mana has been colored due simply to the existence of basic lands, not to mention the lack of colorless producers in any given format (unless someone is running Tron or something). So yes, most of the time, people will end up casting Kozilek for more colored mana than colorless mana.
I wouldn't be surprised if <> ends up being evergreen and not a new "snow mana". It solves the existing color-pie bending problem with printing artifacts that do cool things, if going forward <> means "must be paid with colorless", they can use that to make better artifacts. Doesn't hurt the color pie much because you'd need to hurt your manabase to gain access to it. You also don't need to errata all prior cards, just make it a rule that <> in a casting cost means must be paid with colorless.
Honestly, although converting every colorless-producing card in Magic's history will be tedious, it is absolutely doable without major issue.
That goes beyond "tedious" and into "useless". I'm in the camp that this is intended to be parasitic (it didn't even appear in the "big" set) and not evergreen. The idea being, the "6th color" implication would seem huge while actually being quite small.
If it's meant to be parasitic, then why bother giving Wastes such a generic name? As it is the name allows it to be reprinted in potentially any world and the mana symbol though vaguely reminiscent of a hedron (in the sense that they're both quadrilaterals standing on their points) is still generic enough to fit elsewhere.
As for why such a big change is showing up in the small set rather than the big, it seems to me like this would have started with a 'colorless mana matters in the casting cost' sort of thing, which strikes me as a natural progression of the block's 'colorless matters' subtheme. They would have realized that it would be much easier to just have a new mana symbol to denote 'colorless mana only' in a cost, and from there realize that it would solve the complexity problem of the dual meaning of 1 as well as allow them to do things like Barry's Land. This would have then sparked a great debate in R&D about whether or not they should then introduce such a big change in BFZ or OGW, or even do it at all, with the eventual winning side arguing that since the main point was to have 'colorless mana only' in costs they should keep it as a natural progression of the block subtheme in the small set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Probably cards with <> can be casted sacrificied Eldrazi Scion tokens... So mostly probably the <> can only be paid with colorless, and the <> added to the mana pool can only pay for colorless from colorless spells and abilities, thus Shrine of the Forsaken Gods not adding <> ( and not to spoil the new mechanic).
This is far easier to accept than any other weird explanation on how <> works. It would make it's design much cleaner and, being more simple, would be easier to justify the lack of reminder text on any of these cards.
I mean, we have seen many different mana symbols (Snow, Hybrid, Colorless Hybrid, Phyrexian), but none of them could be added to your mana pool.
Also, Mirrorpool is pretty pushed for a land I guess.
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
My biggest interest in this is, does this mean that cards that can generate mana of any color now generate colorless mana?
Also, might not be the place for it, but I think we're going to see that the Eldrazi aren't exactly malevolent, or that they had an overall positive effect on Zendikar. We'll see which, I guess.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As possible as it is that Mirrorpool is a fake, there is just as little evidence of that as there is that Kozilek and Wastes are fake. If they are fakes, the faker made no mistakes in templating, and managed to find professional-tier art as well as hi-res custom card templates (which are VERY hard to come by today btw). And on top of that, they made a new mana symbol and came up with a clever solution to Barry's Land that could actually possibly work. And if that's not enough, Kozilek and Mirrorpool both feel like real cards, cards WotC would actually print today given their current design philosophies.
My original point is that there's no more reason to think Mirrorpool is fake than there is to think the other two are.
My second point is that I would be VERY surprised if these were fake because we simply have not seen fakes of this quality before.
Tap for <R> or <G>, and you can only spend it to cast the (roughly) 10-20 cards in OGW with that in their casting costs? That would be the biggest troll in WotC history (and therefore incredibly awesome).
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
It is my opinion that <> does NOT mean "colorless mana only." I think it means <>, just like {W}, {U}, {B}, {R}, and {G}. This is not a new color, because the border for this Kozilek is colorless, and this card does not have Devoid. It is simply like one of the five colored mana symbols, except it is colorless. <> can pay for {1}, just like the five colors can, but not vice-versa.
This would mean that no previous mana sources would need to be changed, since this is a new mana symbol. Sol Ring still produces 2 colorless, not 2 <> mana. Kozilek will require 2 sources that tap for <>, not 8 colorless plus a Sol Ring.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Keep in mind that it's still possible that <> can be paid with colorless mana of any kind. That doesn't rule out Cloudpost. In fact, it quite encourages it.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
That goes beyond "tedious" and into "useless". I'm in the camp that this is intended to be parasitic (it didn't even appear in the "big" set) and not evergreen. The idea being, the "6th color" implication would seem huge while actually being quite small.
No, I mean
Land - Mountain Forest
(tap to add R or G to your mana pool)
and
Tap to add <> to your mana pool.
Which is why I think it's wishful thinking.
Your card is missing a very large drawback.
Now they seem to be showing (1) and other numbered symbols as generic mana whilst <> is colorless mana WUBRG<> all usable in generic mana. Cost reduction effects are also simpler if your say what it does in that "blah blah blah costs one generic mana less to cast
I think it was a joke.
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
First, there is absolutely no reason to have Kozilek's cost be <><> plus 8 generic mana if <> means "can only be paid with colorless mana." That cost would functionally be identical to 10 colorless mana in 99.9% of games. In what game have you ever seen someone have access to ten mana, but all of them colored? That's not a cost restriction, it's just a gimick. Second, your suggestion paired with the templating on mirropool would require errata to every colorless mana producer ever! That's a no go! Never gonna happen! Thran dynamo will not read "T: add <><><> to your mana pool" next time it's printed! And if it did, think of the confusion, especially for new players, unless this is an evergreen mechanic. New players will not learn to match <> with colorless mana costs. Nope. This is snow mana pure and simple. <> in a cost means it has to be paid with a card that generates <>.
It's not like they just issued errata on every modal spell ever in Khans of Tarkir, right?
Has noone pointed out the problem with this image?
It is supposed to be a picture someone took of a card, at the standard semi-awkward angle.
But it has a visible mouse cursor IN THE ART OF THE CARD.
Twitter
The way wastes is templated clearly has it saying "T: Add <> to your mana pool", so Mirrorpool doesn't do anything new past that
Also, in the vast majority of games played by anyone ever in which a player has access to 10+ mana, most of that mana has been colored due simply to the existence of basic lands, not to mention the lack of colorless producers in any given format (unless someone is running Tron or something). So yes, most of the time, people will end up casting Kozilek for more colored mana than colorless mana.
If it's meant to be parasitic, then why bother giving Wastes such a generic name? As it is the name allows it to be reprinted in potentially any world and the mana symbol though vaguely reminiscent of a hedron (in the sense that they're both quadrilaterals standing on their points) is still generic enough to fit elsewhere.
As for why such a big change is showing up in the small set rather than the big, it seems to me like this would have started with a 'colorless mana matters in the casting cost' sort of thing, which strikes me as a natural progression of the block's 'colorless matters' subtheme. They would have realized that it would be much easier to just have a new mana symbol to denote 'colorless mana only' in a cost, and from there realize that it would solve the complexity problem of the dual meaning of 1 as well as allow them to do things like Barry's Land. This would have then sparked a great debate in R&D about whether or not they should then introduce such a big change in BFZ or OGW, or even do it at all, with the eventual winning side arguing that since the main point was to have 'colorless mana only' in costs they should keep it as a natural progression of the block subtheme in the small set.