Not sure where you compare an $80 Heroic Deck to a $2500 Delver deck. In standard most players don't have complete lists and a lot of players have to budget, but you can still be in contention with a budgeted deck. In legacy budgeting means spending $1000 on a deck instead of $1800 not to mention there are far fewer legacy tournaments and the disparity between a real legacy and a budgeted legacy deck is astronomical when you compare it to the same disparity in standard.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
Not sure where you compare an $80 Heroic Deck to a $2500 Delver deck. In standard most players don't have complete lists and a lot of players have to budget, but you can still be in contention with a budgeted deck. In legacy budgeting means spending $1000 on a deck instead of $1800 not to mention there are far fewer legacy tournaments and the disparity between a real legacy and a budgeted legacy deck is astronomical when you compare it to the same disparity in standard.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
There are legacy decks cheaper than modern decks. You can go with Burn, and manaless dredge variants. There are cheap options. They are not tire 1 decks per say, but they show up in the top 8 once in a while, so they aren't junk either.
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Not sure where you compare an $80 Heroic Deck to a $2500 Delver deck. In standard most players don't have complete lists and a lot of players have to budget, but you can still be in contention with a budgeted deck. In legacy budgeting means spending $1000 on a deck instead of $1800 not to mention there are far fewer legacy tournaments and the disparity between a real legacy and a budgeted legacy deck is astronomical when you compare it to the same disparity in standard.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
There are legacy decks cheaper than modern decks. You can go with Burn, and manaless dredge variants. There are cheap options. They are not tire 1 decks per say, but they show up in the top 8 once in a while, so they aren't junk either.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community. Playing 'a deck' is not the same as playing 'a format'. I look at my collection against the top 8 of the last few opens. I have literally 80% or better of every list there. The pieces I don't have (ABU Duals, FOW, LED, Gaea's Cradle) total 6 months rent. For a house. With more than 1 bedroom. That's stupid.
I don't like that the format is basically getting shelved. But whatever powers that be, whatever vocal minority put pressure on WotC to not get rid of the RL, did this. The writing should have been on the wall for Legacy players right then and there. You didn't make WotC change their mind, now you're seeing the first signs the format dies. It's sad, but it was also preventable. There isn't much use complaining about tournament support now when the format's required staples were held under a no-reprint lock and key for years.
Honestly, I am not too certain what people were expecting. This is simply a numbers game and legacy is on the losing side of it.
While SCG practice is not necessarily ethical, it is sensible from a financial perspective, especially since as many have pointed out,
Legacy players as a generalization, have a tendency to not require the most recent sets of cards or only require a few specific ones,
e.g. Deathrite, Dig, TC, True Name, etc. As a result, it is very hard to trade into the format and once the SCG stock for Legacy is gone, there is very little financial incentive to continue to support the format. Couple with the obvious problem of the Reserve List preventing core card reprints, further barring people from trading into the format through Standard or simply restricting availability of the cards.
Finally, I find the comparisons that people make for Legacy event sizes to be disingenuous. Sure, if you take the average event size over the course of a year is roughly comparable or even exceeding their Standard counterparts, but the problem arises when you take into account that the number of events is a fraction of Standard, thus causing Legacy player to travel further for the fewer high level events.
If anything, when SCG opens were done on a regular bases a few years ago, thus making the average number of events more comparable, the general trend in attendance to Legacy was on the decline.
On the plus side, and with significant speculation/ hope on my part, if the death of legacy is too be a thing, perhaps it is for the best. If the play-ability of duals/ reserve list cards finally falls off, the price of the cards should also take a dive. If that happens, the biggest arguments from proponents of the reserve list as a tool to preserve the price of cards would be removed, thus potentially allowing Wizard to abolish the list and print the problems cards in some specialist product on mass, thus allowing Legacy to become a Wizard supported eternal format.
Not sure where you compare an $80 Heroic Deck to a $2500 Delver deck. In standard most players don't have complete lists and a lot of players have to budget, but you can still be in contention with a budgeted deck. In legacy budgeting means spending $1000 on a deck instead of $1800 not to mention there are far fewer legacy tournaments and the disparity between a real legacy and a budgeted legacy deck is astronomical when you compare it to the same disparity in standard.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
There are legacy decks cheaper than modern decks. You can go with Burn, and manaless dredge variants. There are cheap options. They are not tire 1 decks per say, but they show up in the top 8 once in a while, so they aren't junk either.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community. Playing 'a deck' is not the same as playing 'a format'. I look at my collection against the top 8 of the last few opens. I have literally 80% or better of every list there. The pieces I don't have (ABU Duals, FOW, LED, Gaea's Cradle) total 6 months rent. For a house. With more than 1 bedroom. That's stupid.
I don't like that the format is basically getting shelved. But whatever powers that be, whatever vocal minority put pressure on WotC to not get rid of the RL, did this. The writing should have been on the wall for Legacy players right then and there. You didn't make WotC change their mind, now you're seeing the first signs the format dies. It's sad, but it was also preventable. There isn't much use complaining about tournament support now when the format's required staples were held under a no-reprint lock and key for years.
If you think monocolored decks or manaless dredge arent viable you haven't been playing real legacy.
Not sure where you compare an $80 Heroic Deck to a $2500 Delver deck. In standard most players don't have complete lists and a lot of players have to budget, but you can still be in contention with a budgeted deck. In legacy budgeting means spending $1000 on a deck instead of $1800 not to mention there are far fewer legacy tournaments and the disparity between a real legacy and a budgeted legacy deck is astronomical when you compare it to the same disparity in standard.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
There are legacy decks cheaper than modern decks. You can go with Burn, and manaless dredge variants. There are cheap options. They are not tire 1 decks per say, but they show up in the top 8 once in a while, so they aren't junk either.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community. Playing 'a deck' is not the same as playing 'a format'. I look at my collection against the top 8 of the last few opens. I have literally 80% or better of every list there. The pieces I don't have (ABU Duals, FOW, LED, Gaea's Cradle) total 6 months rent. For a house. With more than 1 bedroom. That's stupid.
I don't like that the format is basically getting shelved. But whatever powers that be, whatever vocal minority put pressure on WotC to not get rid of the RL, did this. The writing should have been on the wall for Legacy players right then and there. You didn't make WotC change their mind, now you're seeing the first signs the format dies. It's sad, but it was also preventable. There isn't much use complaining about tournament support now when the format's required staples were held under a no-reprint lock and key for years.
If you think monocolored decks or manaless dredge arent viable you haven't been playing real legacy.
I didn't say anything about viability. Neither did he. What are you talking about?
Not sure where you compare an $80 Heroic Deck to a $2500 Delver deck. In standard most players don't have complete lists and a lot of players have to budget, but you can still be in contention with a budgeted deck. In legacy budgeting means spending $1000 on a deck instead of $1800 not to mention there are far fewer legacy tournaments and the disparity between a real legacy and a budgeted legacy deck is astronomical when you compare it to the same disparity in standard.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
There are legacy decks cheaper than modern decks. You can go with Burn, and manaless dredge variants. There are cheap options. They are not tire 1 decks per say, but they show up in the top 8 once in a while, so they aren't junk either.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community. Playing 'a deck' is not the same as playing 'a format'. I look at my collection against the top 8 of the last few opens. I have literally 80% or better of every list there. The pieces I don't have (ABU Duals, FOW, LED, Gaea's Cradle) total 6 months rent. For a house. With more than 1 bedroom. That's stupid.
I don't like that the format is basically getting shelved. But whatever powers that be, whatever vocal minority put pressure on WotC to not get rid of the RL, did this. The writing should have been on the wall for Legacy players right then and there. You didn't make WotC change their mind, now you're seeing the first signs the format dies. It's sad, but it was also preventable. There isn't much use complaining about tournament support now when the format's required staples were held under a no-reprint lock and key for years.
If you think monocolored decks or manaless dredge arent viable you haven't been playing real legacy.
Isn't that the root of the problem?
My Burn is worth $600, and just because it isn't "tier 1", it doesn't mean it doesn't win. In 4 years it has generated more than 12 times it's value in prizes at local montly events. I don't even play all months and some months I've played Elves or Pox instead.
In contrast, I have stopped playing Standard because despite winning as often as I did in Legacy, my numbers were never in green because of the ammount of overcosted singles I had to keep buying because the meta keeps shifting and if there is a format where having a good deck matters more than being a good player, it's Standard.
Besides, people who ***** about being told to play a deck that's not tier 1, are often not tier 1 players either so playing Burn or Omnishow would be the same waste of time and money because they aren't winning the Legacy GP anyway.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community.
where he called cheap decks junkers and said that you can't win with them and that simply isn't true.
Basically the richest collectors in the world will send an army of lawyers at Hasbro dragging them through the dirt if they try to abolish the reserved list.
While they're getting what they want. Legacy will be taken out the back with a shotgun and those that loved it will shed some tears as they hear the bullet being fired.
They refused the treatment that could save it because of short term financial gain. Those people that met with Hasbro and WoTC and forced this situation are to blame and they will pay the price for their greed as legacy dies and people sell off the cards and values plummet.
I refuse to watch Legacy opens. I don't mind it but it's the principle that I don't want to be interested in a format I can't participate in. That's like being allowed to watch football but if you want to play it yourself the only football you can buy costs $3000 and cheap imitation footballs are illegal and not allowed.
Burn and dredge are completely viable on a local level. Local players are 99% not professional players. As a result, we make lots of play errors. So the cheap burn deck or dredge deck are often pretty darn good because most players are on a less than optimal skill level. The few legacy events in my area had a wide mix of deck styles including 12 post, MUD, burn, death and taxes, loam pox, Delver, S&T, and that stupid deck that plays a turn 1 chalice that I can't remember the name of. I'm the guy who plays a 4 color miracles deck splashing black for lim duo's vault. Nothing like countering a 3 drop with counterbalance by filtering through to an Entreat the Angels. It is like a counter and a demonic tutor in one.
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That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community.
where he called cheap decks junkers and said that you can't win with them and that simply isn't true.
Context, sir. That was part of an overarching point about this stance the community, especially Legacy players, has defaulted to - this concept of 'take the cheapest decks and just be glad you get to show up at all'. It's a deflection of the problem that was at the heart of Legacy: cost barrier to entry. Instead of raging at SCG and their pretty scummy tactics, you blame the player that wants to play in your format but can't afford it.
I'm a pretty damn good player if results are any indication. That said, I've never played a burn deck in my life, and I suck at dredge decks. Delver, RUG, Maverick, Miracles are much more my playstyle, but all 4 of them require an investment I'm not willing to make. I probably would have tried if the format was healthy in Charlotte, but it just wasn't. The money isn't there for the players, and a lot of the up-and-coming players in the area are new blood that have only been playing the past 5 years or less. I've been playing since CHK-RAV, so I missed the boat, too. I have little pieces here and there, but nothing I can finish a deck with.
Look at it this way - if I said 3 years ago I'm going to start working toward a Legacy deck, Underground Sea was at $170 (which is still ridiculous for a land), so I start trading up, saving money, etc. By next year, it was hovering around $222. A year later it was at $409. Prices are finally starting to cool again, but they're still at $290. I'd have been chasing a monster. Meanwhile, these collectors were like 'Don't reprint, it's worth $180. Now you really can't reprint, it's worth $220. Now you better never reprint, it's at $400.' The bubble had to burst eventually, unfortunately it took the format with it.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community.
where he called cheap decks junkers and said that you can't win with them and that simply isn't true.
Context, sir. That was part of an overarching point about this stance the community, especially Legacy players, has defaulted to - this concept of 'take the cheapest decks and just be glad you get to show up at all'. It's a deflection of the problem that was at the heart of Legacy: cost barrier to entry. Instead of raging at SCG and their pretty scummy tactics, you blame the player that wants to play in your format but can't afford it.
Your argument could be used to argue against Modern and Standard as well. Tier 1 Modern decks cost nearly the same as a Legacy deck and Tier 1 Standard decks are approaching $1,000. Isn't that the same financial barrier players face with regards to Legacy? Yeah I could make a $15 Standard deck out of commons and uncommons and not win much, but I could still play. That's the same argument people are making with regards to Legacy only the "cheaper" deck actually does win. Burn beats two of three of my Legacy decks right now and I also lose Game 1 to Dredge.
Technically by your argument, ALL formats are inaccessible to newer players due to high cost.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community.
where he called cheap decks junkers and said that you can't win with them and that simply isn't true.
Context, sir. That was part of an overarching point about this stance the community, especially Legacy players, has defaulted to - this concept of 'take the cheapest decks and just be glad you get to show up at all'. It's a deflection of the problem that was at the heart of Legacy: cost barrier to entry. Instead of raging at SCG and their pretty scummy tactics, you blame the player that wants to play in your format but can't afford it.
Your argument could be used to argue against Modern and Standard as well. Tier 1 Modern decks cost nearly the same as a Legacy deck and Tier 1 Standard decks are approaching $1,000. Isn't that the same financial barrier players face with regards to Legacy? Yeah I could make a $15 Standard deck out of commons and uncommons and not win much, but I could still play. That's the same argument people are making with regards to Legacy only the "cheaper" deck actually does win. Burn beats two of three of my Legacy decks right now and I also lose Game 1 to Dredge.
Technically by your argument, ALL formats are inaccessible to newer players due to high cost.
yep!
its why i don't play standard. i'm not dumping hundreds into the format to have a competitive deck. soo... i don't play because of cost!
i do play legacy because i have the cards already.
You guys are arguing exactly why I'm a modern only player. I spent 700 bucks and I have a tier 1 deck that isn't going away. I'm not playing non tier 1 decks because I would be pissed if I lost because I wasn't P2Wing, therefore I don't play standard and I don't play legacy.
Just because I COULD win with a budget legacy deck doesn't make it remotely worthwhile. If I can't play tier 1 I'm not playing. It's not worth my time or frustration.
You guys are arguing exactly why I'm a modern only player. I spent 700 bucks and I have a tier 1 deck that isn't going away. I'm not playing non tier 1 decks because I would be pissed if I lost because I wasn't P2Wing, therefore I don't play standard and I don't play legacy.
Just because I COULD win with a budget legacy deck doesn't make it remotely worthwhile. If I can't play tier 1 I'm not playing. It's not worth my time or frustration.
That's almost the same amount of money I used to build Legacy Merfolk. As a bonus, most of the cards in the Legacy list are also playable in the Modern version. I think you're not really being fair in regards to how much a competitive Legacy deck can actually cost. There are some really expensive ones, but on the other hand, Jund in Modern is like 1800$, so it's not as if there's a galaxy of distance there.
Except there was. Check Modern prices at the start of last year vs. now. The gulf was enormous. Jund is an outlier, it's always been the most expensive deck in the format. But there was a point where many competitive decks could be had without spending much more than you would on a Standard deck. Not to mention, Standard trades into Modern easier. The guy with his 5th Geist is more likely to part with it for, say the new Gideon than a Legacy player is going to cough up a FoW for a pair of Gideons.
The real crime here is that SCG has basically become the benchmark for pricing and they are very irresponsible with that power they've come to have. Remember at the beginning of this past Modern season there was a RUG deck that ran 4 Disrupting Shoal? That card went from 50 cent bin to $10 overnight. You cannot tell me that they had a run on the card. That was purely preemptive gouging. It's gotten to the point where cards that see fringe to zero play in Modern are now commanding prices in the $8-12 range with absolutely no justification at all. Sure Modern season is over, but they've hedged their bets. Prices are cooling now, but never to where they were a year ago. This constant, exponential growth in prices doesn't match my paycheck's growth, I can tell you that. They can't keep compounding the price barrier on every format like this and expect it to stay healthy. Unfortunately, WotC hasn't seen fit to see it for what it is and be more aggressive with value reprints, so you have things like this blow to Legacy taking place (which I really do feel bad about, even not being able to play much of it).
I've been saying it for years, that these tactics were affecting the long term health of the game. Really sad to start seeing it taking place.
I predict the next few years will be:
1) Stop supporting Legacy.
2) Continue buying Legacy staples at cheap buy prices. In fact, maybe some people will consider selling now.
3) Start supporting Legacy again.
4) Sell you back your cards at inflated prices.
5) lol?
This is exactly what first came to my mind. It has been stated that the tournament attendance is not the issue it's that the dealers are not making any money, or at least not enough money, during these events.
So with this idea in mind, as Eternal formats will not ever die I hope, when is going to be the time to buy your staples and duals?
Well, there's notthing SCG can do about the declining number of players who can afford Legacy if WotC refuses to reprint dual lands, LED, etc.
The resserved list killed Legacy, not SCG. I will be the first to say I hate their shady business ways, but at least they kept the best format alive as long as they could.
Let's say the'd make up a format, Legacy unreserved. Same banlist but no cards on the reserve list allowed. How would that affect attendance?
Let's say the'd make up a format, Legacy unreserved. Same banlist but no cards on the reserve list allowed. How would that affect attendance?
That format is called Modern. It's a primary reason the format was created. Taking away dual lands alone kills a lot of the point and interest of Legacy.
Well, there's notthing SCG can do about the declining number of players who can afford Legacy if WotC refuses to reprint dual lands, LED, etc.
The resserved list killed Legacy, not SCG. I will be the first to say I hate their shady business ways, but at least they kept the best format alive as long as they could.
Let's say the'd make up a format, Legacy unreserved. Same banlist but no cards on the reserve list allowed. How would that affect attendance?
Honestly, all that would need to be printed for legacy is the ABUR dual lands. Being able to play all the color combinations is the biggest restriction to legacy. Sure, there are expensive cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and others, but for the vast majority of decks, including the best decks in the format, cards like that aren't needed. Take Legacy Miracles for instance, what other cards are on the reserved list? None. Depending on the list, you may play Karakas, but that isn't on the reserved list, nor is it necessary depending on the meta you are involved in. In fact, much of many legacy decks are modern legal, or at least modern era cards that got the ban hammer. If only the dual lands were pulled off the reserved list, Legacy would get a big boost in viability. Unfortunately, the increase in availability of ABUR lands would likely lead to a spike in other cards that include modern staples like Snapster, Clickmeister, Griselbrandy, and Lil Lilly. Then we could all complain about how both Legacy and Modern are too expensive. Oh wait, Modern is already "too expensive."
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You guys are arguing exactly why I'm a modern only player. I spent 700 bucks and I have a tier 1 deck that isn't going away. I'm not playing non tier 1 decks because I would be pissed if I lost because I wasn't P2Wing, therefore I don't play standard and I don't play legacy.
Just because I COULD win with a budget legacy deck doesn't make it remotely worthwhile. If I can't play tier 1 I'm not playing. It's not worth my time or frustration.
That's almost the same amount of money I used to build Legacy Merfolk. As a bonus, most of the cards in the Legacy list are also playable in the Modern version. I think you're not really being fair in regards to how much a competitive Legacy deck can actually cost. There are some really expensive ones, but on the other hand, Jund in Modern is like 1800$, so it's not as if there's a galaxy of distance there.
Except there was. Check Modern prices at the start of last year vs. now. The gulf was enormous. Jund is an outlier, it's always been the most expensive deck in the format. But there was a point where many competitive decks could be had without spending much more than you would on a Standard deck. Not to mention, Standard trades into Modern easier. The guy with his 5th Geist is more likely to part with it for, say the new Gideon than a Legacy player is going to cough up a FoW for a pair of Gideons.
The real crime here is that SCG has basically become the benchmark for pricing and they are very irresponsible with that power they've come to have. Remember at the beginning of this past Modern season there was a RUG deck that ran 4 Disrupting Shoal? That card went from 50 cent bin to $10 overnight. You cannot tell me that they had a run on the card. That was purely preemptive gouging. It's gotten to the point where cards that see fringe to zero play in Modern are now commanding prices in the $8-12 range with absolutely no justification at all. Sure Modern season is over, but they've hedged their bets. Prices are cooling now, but never to where they were a year ago. This constant, exponential growth in prices doesn't match my paycheck's growth, I can tell you that. They can't keep compounding the price barrier on every format like this and expect it to stay healthy. Unfortunately, WotC hasn't seen fit to see it for what it is and be more aggressive with value reprints, so you have things like this blow to Legacy taking place (which I really do feel bad about, even not being able to play much of it).
I've been saying it for years, that these tactics were affecting the long term health of the game. Really sad to start seeing it taking place.
Is it really an outlier though? Just doing a quick look at the Modern metagame, we find all of these decks, with plenty more hovering aroung 800$. All of these could just as easily be competitive Legacy decks.
It was, definitely. Not so much anymore. As it stands right now, which you can see in the Modern prices discussion, the argument has been for a while that this increase in price is not healthy. I mean, look at this:
A 4th printing of a card that rarely makes more than 2-of in 5/18 of the tier-1 decks in Modern, and that's what it finally took to make a dent in the price tag...yet it's still not back to the pre-2013 price when it only had 2 printings...how is that even possible? Supply went up, demand went down. This card should have cratered to $10 by now, yet you still can't get it for the $25 it was prior to GP Richmond. Since that event, SCG has been fixing secondary market prices on Modern with the trend always heading up. Legacy, too, but that bubble had to burst. Modern will, too...it's just going to take longer.
The guy's just applying the Standard mindset to a format where "Tier 1" isn't even so well defined.
Legacy's meta is mostly shaped by player preference, not necessity like Standard where his "if I'm not playing tier 1 I'm not even playing" bull is actually true. It wasn't even two years ago when Monastery Swiftspear made it so that Burn (apparently the ***** deck it's so cool to call out for being useless crap that can't win) was unbeatable to many BUG variants despite their ridiculous card value and price tag.
Same with Modern, it's ridiculous to peacock about your "tier 1" style when any season not dominated by a truly broken deck, sees a lot of rogues at the winning tables.
The guy's just applying the Standard mindset to a format where "Tier 1" isn't even so well defined.
Legacy's meta is mostly shaped by player preference, not necessity like Standard where his "if I'm not playing tier 1 I'm not even playing" bull is actually true. It wasn't even two years ago when Monastery Swiftspear made it so that Burn (apparently the ***** deck it's so cool to call out for being useless crap that can't win) was unbeatable to many BUG variants despite their ridiculous card value and price tag.
Same with Modern, it's ridiculous to peacock about your "tier 1" style when any season not dominated by a truly broken deck, sees a lot of rogues at the winning tables.
Interestingly enough Wizards posted the Day 2 breakdown for the Legacy GP and 5.5% of the decks who made Day 2 were Burn decks:
So again, Legacy players mentioning Burn and Dredge is not a "play this jank deck and stop complaining." It's a legitimate way to enter the format, do reasonably well, and if you are so inclined and like the format, invest more. It's disingenuous to say you need to drop $2,000 into a Legacy deck just to even have a chance of playing.
Exactly.
And those saying local Legacy events aren't a big deal. Get real. You can turn your $600 Burn into Delver with another $600 and then Miracles with another $800. You don't need to spend $2,000 right away, get to play the format and most probably accumulate winnings towards your deck improvement, and you end up having three decks in case your local meta becomes hostile.
Local Legacy is the best thing ever for grinding and leveling up your deck, speaking in video-game terms.
And legacy may be cheaper in the long run after years, but that means years of not playing magic as you save up for a legacy deck. In standard you can pop $200 and have a deck capable of placing in tournaments, maybe not necessarily conquering them, in legacy $200 gets you a land.
What happens is WotC listens to everyone complaining, squeaky wheel gets the grease, enough people must have complained to keep the reserved list, that'ds the bottom line. I'd love to take a shot at legacy but it's completely cost prohibitive no matter what legacy players say.
There are legacy decks cheaper than modern decks. You can go with Burn, and manaless dredge variants. There are cheap options. They are not tire 1 decks per say, but they show up in the top 8 once in a while, so they aren't junk either.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
That's like saying you can show up to a street race with a junker. Sure, you can spend money on the junker, lose and have a terrible time, but at least you got to play, right? This argument, this entire line of reasoning needs to stop in the community. Playing 'a deck' is not the same as playing 'a format'. I look at my collection against the top 8 of the last few opens. I have literally 80% or better of every list there. The pieces I don't have (ABU Duals, FOW, LED, Gaea's Cradle) total 6 months rent. For a house. With more than 1 bedroom. That's stupid.
I don't like that the format is basically getting shelved. But whatever powers that be, whatever vocal minority put pressure on WotC to not get rid of the RL, did this. The writing should have been on the wall for Legacy players right then and there. You didn't make WotC change their mind, now you're seeing the first signs the format dies. It's sad, but it was also preventable. There isn't much use complaining about tournament support now when the format's required staples were held under a no-reprint lock and key for years.
While SCG practice is not necessarily ethical, it is sensible from a financial perspective, especially since as many have pointed out,
Legacy players as a generalization, have a tendency to not require the most recent sets of cards or only require a few specific ones,
e.g. Deathrite, Dig, TC, True Name, etc. As a result, it is very hard to trade into the format and once the SCG stock for Legacy is gone, there is very little financial incentive to continue to support the format. Couple with the obvious problem of the Reserve List preventing core card reprints, further barring people from trading into the format through Standard or simply restricting availability of the cards.
Finally, I find the comparisons that people make for Legacy event sizes to be disingenuous. Sure, if you take the average event size over the course of a year is roughly comparable or even exceeding their Standard counterparts, but the problem arises when you take into account that the number of events is a fraction of Standard, thus causing Legacy player to travel further for the fewer high level events.
If anything, when SCG opens were done on a regular bases a few years ago, thus making the average number of events more comparable, the general trend in attendance to Legacy was on the decline.
On the plus side, and with significant speculation/ hope on my part, if the death of legacy is too be a thing, perhaps it is for the best. If the play-ability of duals/ reserve list cards finally falls off, the price of the cards should also take a dive. If that happens, the biggest arguments from proponents of the reserve list as a tool to preserve the price of cards would be removed, thus potentially allowing Wizard to abolish the list and print the problems cards in some specialist product on mass, thus allowing Legacy to become a Wizard supported eternal format.
If you think monocolored decks or manaless dredge arent viable you haven't been playing real legacy.
I didn't say anything about viability. Neither did he. What are you talking about?
Isn't that the root of the problem?
My Burn is worth $600, and just because it isn't "tier 1", it doesn't mean it doesn't win. In 4 years it has generated more than 12 times it's value in prizes at local montly events. I don't even play all months and some months I've played Elves or Pox instead.
In contrast, I have stopped playing Standard because despite winning as often as I did in Legacy, my numbers were never in green because of the ammount of overcosted singles I had to keep buying because the meta keeps shifting and if there is a format where having a good deck matters more than being a good player, it's Standard.
Besides, people who ***** about being told to play a deck that's not tier 1, are often not tier 1 players either so playing Burn or Omnishow would be the same waste of time and money because they aren't winning the Legacy GP anyway.
where he called cheap decks junkers and said that you can't win with them and that simply isn't true.
While they're getting what they want. Legacy will be taken out the back with a shotgun and those that loved it will shed some tears as they hear the bullet being fired.
They refused the treatment that could save it because of short term financial gain. Those people that met with Hasbro and WoTC and forced this situation are to blame and they will pay the price for their greed as legacy dies and people sell off the cards and values plummet.
I refuse to watch Legacy opens. I don't mind it but it's the principle that I don't want to be interested in a format I can't participate in. That's like being allowed to watch football but if you want to play it yourself the only football you can buy costs $3000 and cheap imitation footballs are illegal and not allowed.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Context, sir. That was part of an overarching point about this stance the community, especially Legacy players, has defaulted to - this concept of 'take the cheapest decks and just be glad you get to show up at all'. It's a deflection of the problem that was at the heart of Legacy: cost barrier to entry. Instead of raging at SCG and their pretty scummy tactics, you blame the player that wants to play in your format but can't afford it.
I'm a pretty damn good player if results are any indication. That said, I've never played a burn deck in my life, and I suck at dredge decks. Delver, RUG, Maverick, Miracles are much more my playstyle, but all 4 of them require an investment I'm not willing to make. I probably would have tried if the format was healthy in Charlotte, but it just wasn't. The money isn't there for the players, and a lot of the up-and-coming players in the area are new blood that have only been playing the past 5 years or less. I've been playing since CHK-RAV, so I missed the boat, too. I have little pieces here and there, but nothing I can finish a deck with.
Look at it this way - if I said 3 years ago I'm going to start working toward a Legacy deck, Underground Sea was at $170 (which is still ridiculous for a land), so I start trading up, saving money, etc. By next year, it was hovering around $222. A year later it was at $409. Prices are finally starting to cool again, but they're still at $290. I'd have been chasing a monster. Meanwhile, these collectors were like 'Don't reprint, it's worth $180. Now you really can't reprint, it's worth $220. Now you better never reprint, it's at $400.' The bubble had to burst eventually, unfortunately it took the format with it.
Your argument could be used to argue against Modern and Standard as well. Tier 1 Modern decks cost nearly the same as a Legacy deck and Tier 1 Standard decks are approaching $1,000. Isn't that the same financial barrier players face with regards to Legacy? Yeah I could make a $15 Standard deck out of commons and uncommons and not win much, but I could still play. That's the same argument people are making with regards to Legacy only the "cheaper" deck actually does win. Burn beats two of three of my Legacy decks right now and I also lose Game 1 to Dredge.
Technically by your argument, ALL formats are inaccessible to newer players due to high cost.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
yep!
its why i don't play standard. i'm not dumping hundreds into the format to have a competitive deck. soo... i don't play because of cost!
i do play legacy because i have the cards already.
Just because I COULD win with a budget legacy deck doesn't make it remotely worthwhile. If I can't play tier 1 I'm not playing. It's not worth my time or frustration.
That's what you think, sucker.
Except there was. Check Modern prices at the start of last year vs. now. The gulf was enormous. Jund is an outlier, it's always been the most expensive deck in the format. But there was a point where many competitive decks could be had without spending much more than you would on a Standard deck. Not to mention, Standard trades into Modern easier. The guy with his 5th Geist is more likely to part with it for, say the new Gideon than a Legacy player is going to cough up a FoW for a pair of Gideons.
The real crime here is that SCG has basically become the benchmark for pricing and they are very irresponsible with that power they've come to have. Remember at the beginning of this past Modern season there was a RUG deck that ran 4 Disrupting Shoal? That card went from 50 cent bin to $10 overnight. You cannot tell me that they had a run on the card. That was purely preemptive gouging. It's gotten to the point where cards that see fringe to zero play in Modern are now commanding prices in the $8-12 range with absolutely no justification at all. Sure Modern season is over, but they've hedged their bets. Prices are cooling now, but never to where they were a year ago. This constant, exponential growth in prices doesn't match my paycheck's growth, I can tell you that. They can't keep compounding the price barrier on every format like this and expect it to stay healthy. Unfortunately, WotC hasn't seen fit to see it for what it is and be more aggressive with value reprints, so you have things like this blow to Legacy taking place (which I really do feel bad about, even not being able to play much of it).
I've been saying it for years, that these tactics were affecting the long term health of the game. Really sad to start seeing it taking place.
This is exactly what first came to my mind. It has been stated that the tournament attendance is not the issue it's that the dealers are not making any money, or at least not enough money, during these events.
So with this idea in mind, as Eternal formats will not ever die I hope, when is going to be the time to buy your staples and duals?
Let's say the'd make up a format, Legacy unreserved. Same banlist but no cards on the reserve list allowed. How would that affect attendance?
That format is called Modern. It's a primary reason the format was created. Taking away dual lands alone kills a lot of the point and interest of Legacy.
Honestly, all that would need to be printed for legacy is the ABUR dual lands. Being able to play all the color combinations is the biggest restriction to legacy. Sure, there are expensive cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and others, but for the vast majority of decks, including the best decks in the format, cards like that aren't needed. Take Legacy Miracles for instance, what other cards are on the reserved list? None. Depending on the list, you may play Karakas, but that isn't on the reserved list, nor is it necessary depending on the meta you are involved in. In fact, much of many legacy decks are modern legal, or at least modern era cards that got the ban hammer. If only the dual lands were pulled off the reserved list, Legacy would get a big boost in viability. Unfortunately, the increase in availability of ABUR lands would likely lead to a spike in other cards that include modern staples like Snapster, Clickmeister, Griselbrandy, and Lil Lilly. Then we could all complain about how both Legacy and Modern are too expensive. Oh wait, Modern is already "too expensive."
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
It was, definitely. Not so much anymore. As it stands right now, which you can see in the Modern prices discussion, the argument has been for a while that this increase in price is not healthy. I mean, look at this:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/Lorwyn/Cryptic_Command
A 4th printing of a card that rarely makes more than 2-of in 5/18 of the tier-1 decks in Modern, and that's what it finally took to make a dent in the price tag...yet it's still not back to the pre-2013 price when it only had 2 printings...how is that even possible? Supply went up, demand went down. This card should have cratered to $10 by now, yet you still can't get it for the $25 it was prior to GP Richmond. Since that event, SCG has been fixing secondary market prices on Modern with the trend always heading up. Legacy, too, but that bubble had to burst. Modern will, too...it's just going to take longer.
Legacy's meta is mostly shaped by player preference, not necessity like Standard where his "if I'm not playing tier 1 I'm not even playing" bull is actually true. It wasn't even two years ago when Monastery Swiftspear made it so that Burn (apparently the ***** deck it's so cool to call out for being useless crap that can't win) was unbeatable to many BUG variants despite their ridiculous card value and price tag.
Same with Modern, it's ridiculous to peacock about your "tier 1" style when any season not dominated by a truly broken deck, sees a lot of rogues at the winning tables.
Interestingly enough Wizards posted the Day 2 breakdown for the Legacy GP and 5.5% of the decks who made Day 2 were Burn decks:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea15/day-2-metagame-breakdown-2015-11-08
So again, Legacy players mentioning Burn and Dredge is not a "play this jank deck and stop complaining." It's a legitimate way to enter the format, do reasonably well, and if you are so inclined and like the format, invest more. It's disingenuous to say you need to drop $2,000 into a Legacy deck just to even have a chance of playing.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
And those saying local Legacy events aren't a big deal. Get real. You can turn your $600 Burn into Delver with another $600 and then Miracles with another $800. You don't need to spend $2,000 right away, get to play the format and most probably accumulate winnings towards your deck improvement, and you end up having three decks in case your local meta becomes hostile.
Local Legacy is the best thing ever for grinding and leveling up your deck, speaking in video-game terms.
Just after I unloaded my staples I don't use of course haha