It isn't strictly better. It should be an upgrade in most cases though.
Overall there isn't much exiting things in the decks sadly.
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Samstod tweeted this: "Although not listed in the article, Momentary Blink and Dread Return are the alternate art non-face cards in Blessed vs Cursed."
I can't believe they did another Duel Deck that has every card in it from the block prior to the plane we are returning to. The zombie deck could easily have had any of the other zombie lords and used cards from Onslaught block for some more zombie tribal. They could have at least gotten a little more creative. An Adaptive Automaton wouldn't have been too much to ask in one of these.
I must admit that the cards with Delirium are pretty good, although maybe only for limited although that white spirit is real nice to lock down big dude and Tooth Collector has some creepy art, which is nice.
Ugh, this was a dud. Sure we get geist reprint and eternal masters for more reprint, but there are some cards that would've fit well in these decks like ghostly prison or casual zombie lords worth a pretty penny.
I miss the good ol days of duel decks where there was a good mix of high power and casual card mix. Now it's all casual chaff
They tend not to reprint lords who affect other players' creatures anymore. Death Baron would have been a good choice though, but I think it's too strong for a Duel Deck.
I never even considered that because I don't play standard. So... did you intend on answering the question or simply stating something that everyone already knew?
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Topplegesit will topple candles and even Giant Eldrazis lol
Yeah this duel deck is underwhelming for basically only using cards from Innistrad wich isn't an old block so they should still be comon making this duel deck kinda unecessary
Seriously, Gravecrawler and Geist are the only cards in here worth mentioning. They're like 95% of the value of the set. Oh well. These will sell for 15 bucks easily. The death spiral of the duel decks continues, sadly.
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
They tend not to reprint lords who affect other players' creatures anymore. Death Baron would have been a good choice though, but I think it's too strong for a Duel Deck.
At a single copy, it would not have made the duel deck insanely powerful. They could even do 2 lords and it still wouldn't make it good without a reliable way of drawing or tutoring into it.
The original duel decks like divine vs demonic were perfect, fun and casual but had enough power so that it didn't feel like i threw all the cards together using a bulk commons box. DDs really took a nosedive since venser and koth and it's just sad. I bought DDs when they first came out and I definitely enjoyed playing them. They also served me well after it got boring because some of the cards can be used for other decks. Now it just looks like they're pushing the duel decks to face each other and nothing else
They tend not to reprint lords who affect other players' creatures anymore. Death Baron would have been a good choice though, but I think it's too strong for a Duel Deck.
At a single copy, it would not have made the duel deck insanely powerful. They could even do 2 lords and it still wouldn't make it good without a reliable way of drawing or tutoring into it.
The original duel decks like divine vs demonic were perfect, fun and casual but had enough power so that it didn't feel like i threw all the cards together using a bulk commons box.
Gamewise, Divine vs. Demonic were the most atrocious DD ever made. The decks completely missed each other, and it was essentially a two-player solitaire.
Even Venser vs. Koth were better.
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100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
They tend not to reprint lords who affect other players' creatures anymore. Death Baron would have been a good choice though, but I think it's too strong for a Duel Deck.
At a single copy, it would not have made the duel deck insanely powerful. They could even do 2 lords and it still wouldn't make it good without a reliable way of drawing or tutoring into it.
The original duel decks like divine vs demonic were perfect, fun and casual but had enough power so that it didn't feel like i threw all the cards together using a bulk commons box. DDs really took a nosedive since venser and koth and it's just sad. I bought DDs when they first came out and I definitely enjoyed playing them. They also served me well after it got boring because some of the cards can be used for other decks. Now it just looks like they're pushing the duel decks to face each other and nothing else
I've been collecting DDs since Divine vs. Demonic. That one was terrible for playing, but it was worth buying for foil Akroma and alternative art demonic tutor. Everything else in there was chaff though. I mean, Angelic Page? Demon's Jester? OVEREAGER APPRENTICE?! Duel decks have always had bad cards in them, its just that some have more valuable reprints than others.
Sometimes DDs can surprise you though. Sorin vs. Tibalt looked terrible, but if you actually play them out, they were amazing, despite having less than valuable cards (lingering souls and sorin aside). I'll be proxy testing this DD before judging it. I'm excited for this one since both of them have blue (which is underrepresented in DD) and no red (which is over represented in DD).
I certainly did not get that vibe when I bought the deck and played with my friends for hours. I thought it was thematically correct and the gameplay reflected that: forces of hell sieging while the humans hold out long enough to call for the 1-2 angels to be able to turn the tide. It was very simple and elegant to me.
I'm personally tired of Duel Decks playing like 60 card singleton decks. At least makes the decks semi-consistent and put a playset or two of some decent commons. At least this has a few double copies in each deck. That's a small step up I guess.
was excited for this so i can finally grab a GoST for TL, but upon seeing the lists, I'll definitely just grab a single as it is literally the only card in both decks I care about. I've already got plenty of Innistrad chaff and bulk rares from the first time around.
The original duel decks like divine vs demonic were perfect, fun and casual but had enough power so that it didn't feel like i threw all the cards together using a bulk commons box.
Since all the cool kids are commenting on this, I think I'll quote an old rant of mine about how awful Divine vs Demonic was:
Oh, I wanted Divine vs Demonic to be good, believe you me. I like angels and demons too, which is why I'm so critical of the Divine vs Demonic duel decks. I don't, for example, care about knights or dragons, so I don't care about the fact that the Knights vs Dragons duel decks were supposedly pretty bad and poorly balanced.
-The Divine deck has almost no removal, so, most of the time, the only answer it has to the Demonic deck dropping a bomb is to drop its own bomb, and hope that it doesn't eat a Dark Banishing. (The Demonic deck, honestly, is also lighter on removal than I'd like it to be.)
-The Divine deck is fairly good at stalling, and the Demonic deck is bad at quick kills, so the life/mana/whatever payments that many of the Demonic deck's cards have can actually cripple you pretty easily.
-Including Akroma was a terrible choice. The Demonic deck has precisely five answers to Akroma, if you include Demonic Tutor's ability to fetch an answer, and all but one of those answers are sacrifice effects, so most of the time, they won't even work. The Demonic deck can't race her, either; her protection means that she is a guaranteed six damage per turn, and her vigilance means that she can, at the same time, stop (and likely kill) whatever you're trying to race her with. My friends and I played dozens of games with these duel decks, and the Demonic deck never survived Akroma hitting the field.
-I don't know how WotC failed to notice the fact that Lord of the Pit started sucking over a decade ago, nor why they thought it was cool enough to be the foil mythic of the Demonic deck. The only reason that it works (and I use that word only in the loosest sense) in the Demonic deck is because the Divine deck has so little removal, so you rarely have to worry about Lord of the Pit or your sacrifice fodder getting killed.
-Breeding Pit is useless except to provide sacrifice fodder, but there are only five cards in the Demonic deck that need sacrifice fodder (and two of them are one-time effects), so good luck drawing both Breeding Pit and a card that needs sac fodder in the same game. The thrull tokens have zero power, so they're no good on offense, and they don't have flying, so they can't block any of the Divine deck's creatures that you actually want to be chump blocking. I guess they included it to make the Lord of the Pit better, but playing bad cards in order to make other bad cards suck slightly less is bad deckbuilding philosophy.
-Speaking of bad cards, both decks are chock full of them, like Icatian Priest, Healing Salve, Serra's Boon, Dusk Imp, Souldrinker, Unholy Strength, and two of the luckycharms, just to name a few. So when you inevitably take the decks apart, most of their contents will just end up going in your "crap commons and uncommons" box. If it weren't for the foil Akroma and the alt-art Demonic Tutor, it wouldn't be worth the MSRP. So if you don't want to actually play the duel decks, and are just interested in the individual cards, you're typically better off just buying or trading for the cards you want. (Which is what I did.)
-All in all, the decks are just poorly balanced, and shoddily built. Games are decided less by who outplays who, and more by who gets the better draws.
The abundance of single copies is very much intentional. These decks are meant to be played against one another many times; an important part of keeping them engaging in the long term is to give them more variance in their draws, so that multiple games don't play out the same every time. Building a deck to win a tournament or FNM is very different from building a deck with the intention of being, essentially, a self-contained mini-game. Wizards has gotten better at tuning these decks for that purpose. And better at making them less appealing for purchase by people who don't want to use them that way, but just as a source of singles, denying access to the product for people who do want to play it in its intended form.
Man, I love having a second Ghostway for my Ally EDH! Geist is a cool reprint. Otherwise...nothing here for those of us who lived through the first Innistrad block. I don't like how these decks are 99% Innistrad block cards.
Yeah.... Power and singles value is not what these decks are meant for so I don't exactly see the point of people complaining that these decks don't have powerful reprints or cards you can pawn off for cash. Those can be nice when they happen (Unless people just scalp up all of the decks, leaving none for the people who just want then for fun. You know, the target market.) but there's no sense in complaining that a DD set doesn't have that because it actually isn't supposed to.
On Tooth Collector and Topplegeist: I really, really, REALLY hope we see more art like this in SOI and not the mediocre CG fest we were subjected to in BFZ and OGW. Like, look at Topplegeist's little baby finger! I can almost hear him knock over a candle and giggle his ghostly butt off while levitating down the hallway.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
The abundance of single copies is very much intentional. These decks are meant to be played against one another many times; an important part of keeping them engaging in the long term is to give them more variance in their draws, so that multiple games don't play out the same every time. Building a deck to win a tournament or FNM is very different from building a deck with the intention of being, essentially, a self-contained mini-game. Wizards has gotten better at tuning these decks for that purpose. And better at making them less appealing for purchase by people who don't want to use them that way, but just as a source of singles, denying access to the product for people who do want to play it in its intended form.
Yeah.... Power and singles value is not what these decks are meant for so I don't exactly see the point of people complaining that these decks don't have powerful reprints or cards you can pawn off for cash. Those can be nice when they happen (Unless people just scalp up all of the decks, leaving none for the people who just want then for fun. You know, the target market.) but there's no sense in complaining that a DD set doesn't have that because it actually isn't supposed to.
On Tooth Collector and Topplegeist: I really, really, REALLY hope we see more art like this in SOI and not the mediocre CG fest we were subjected to in BFZ and OGW. Like, look at Topplegeist's little baby finger! I can almost hear him knock over a candle and giggle his ghostly butt off while levitating down the hallway.
These sell at Wal Mart, there's way much more product than there is demand, even the most in demand ever Elspeth vs Tezzeret, was easy to find at big box stores for MSRP.
And now we get ******* KTK common duals as 4-ofs instead of a single slow-fetch, tainted land or any other interesting old uncommon land that hasn't been reprinted in the modern border? It's like facelifting good, cheap cards for people who collect them physically hurts them or something.
This is just two Intro Decks with a foil Mythic each (and the demon barely feels mythic). These don't feel like the original duel decks at all and I know, I have them all, many in multiples. This product line has gone down the drain the hardest both in collectible value and playability. The last decks capable of beating Liliana or Garruk were Sorin and Tibalt, and GvS is not the top of the DD power level, they're just good, fun decks with the capability to entertain.
Only 4 new arts, no MBB first timers, no constructed playables other than Geist, Gravecrawler and the new blink, singles of all but the worst cards and not even ONE old ONS zombie in the DD: Spirits vs Zombies? **** this *****.
Why does WotC hate selling product so much? They need to fire their sales adivsors ASAP because that "selling product across target audiences is bad" ***** is hurting their numbers and hurting the products we the players have access to.
Even being sold at Wal-Mart, etc. products like the Mind Sieze Commander precon were purchased en masse to resell their high-priced singles, to the point where they could scarcely be found on store shelves until they had to send out special restock packages that had twice as many of that deck as the other four, which had sat and rotted on the shelves.
And even when these products are available at big retailers, there is a lot to be said about availability at game stores as well. The stock problems become even more dramatic there, and Wizards has a vested interest in keeping Magic purchases flowing at these locations. You can't play FNM or do drafts at Wal-Mart, after all. And they have a vested interest in making sure there is a variety of product available for the casual play crowd as well as the more invested or "serious" players as well. They've tried a lot of similar products in recent years to try cater to that audience (Clash packs, those semi-random battle pack things, etc.) and it seems Duel Decks are the only ones that have been selling well to them, since they're the only ones that haven't been left by the wayside. When something has not been working for them, financially or otherwise, they have abandoned the practice. They know a hell of a lot more about their sales numbers and their demographic information than we do, and they're working with that data to get the results they want in the way that's most effective. If there's been a change in Duel Deck design, it's for a reason, and not an arbitrary one.
1. Jace looks so cute on Pore Over the Pages. Also, Tamiyo reference and cool effect. Right into my EDH deck it will go.
2. I love the art on Topplegeist. I didn't even read its effect. Also going into the Geist and Angel EDH deck I'm making. Man I love Innistrad. Can't believe how much I've missed it. This amazing art is making me excited and nostalgic and everything. I can't imagine when we Return to Theros. I'll probably explode.
3. This set is going to be a return set done right. I can already sense it. Nothing like terrible BFZ.
4. Eerie Interlude is insane! Very strong card. I'm impressed. Theme is on point too. UGH I just want everything.
Compelling Deterrence. Somewhere Recoil is starting to feel inadequate. I mean, you're probably in black regardless, and Recoil doesn't require a tribal theme, and can hit lands, but dropping a whole colored mana is still a big argument.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Alright, as promised I played a few games with proxies:
Game 1 -
Zombies Cursed wins the dice roll and has to choose between blue mana (tap land) for a screeching skaab and a turn 1 diregraf ghoul. I lead with the ghoul. Humans Blessed goes turn 1 cathedral sanctifier. Cursed draws an island and screeching skaab comes down, milling two. I attack with my ghoul and Blessed chooses not to block. Blessed has yet to draw an island, so it enchants the sanctifier with bonds of faith and swings for three. Sadly, Blessed doesn't draw an island for the rest of the game as Cursed plays more zombies. Blessed has the removal though, rebuke on unbreathing horde and fiend hunter for diregraf captain. Mindwrack Demon comes down though, and the game ends shortly as Blessed can't even chump block after tooth collector starts triggering (Delirium is easy to trigger when you can mill yourself!)
Game 2 -
Fiend hunter eats a butcher ghoul so thraben heteric begins the beats. Cursed plays a skaab and exiles a flier with appetite for brains. Blessed plays a grey ogre of some sort and continues the attack. Blessed chumps with the skaab. Cursed plays moan of the unhallowed to stabilize. Blessed plays a couple of creatures and gains some life. An unbreathing horde comes down and a removal spell clears out the heteric. Blessed casts increasing devotion and suddenly the humans have won the numbers game. The zombies recruit a traitorous human in tooth collector, but he's not crazy enough to start picking off the townsfolk yet. Blessed begins changing the tides as it plays a couple of angels. The zombies are forced to take a couple hits, but a Mindwrack demon stabilizes the air.
Although Cursed is forced to take 4 from its demon, another skaab triggers delirium. Blessed has gained almost twenty life this game, but it's clear that the board is turning back in the zombie's favor. Compelling deterrence does an amazing recoil as goldnight redeemer is bounced and then discarded. Blessed flashbacks increasing devotion, but sever the bloodline means that faith can't save the human army. Blessed is now at 4, with tooth collector picking off random weenies here and there. Blessed knows its on it's fateful hour when it gather the townsfolk, but Cursed soars over head for the win.
Thoughts:
The decks do an amazing job capturing the feel of the original innistrad set and there appears to be enough removal to give the decks enough interaction. The new SOI cards made their impact and are fun, as delirium is a mini-game all by itself. Cursed feels like the stronger deck, but its difficult to tell with only two games, especially since Blessed was color-screwed in game 1. So far though, I would purchase this DD if I wanted recreate the original innistrad experience.
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It isn't strictly better. It should be an upgrade in most cases though.
Overall there isn't much exiting things in the decks sadly.
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I must admit that the cards with Delirium are pretty good, although maybe only for limited although that white spirit is real nice to lock down big dude and Tooth Collector has some creepy art, which is nice.
I never even considered that because I don't play standard. So... did you intend on answering the question or simply stating something that everyone already knew?
Yes, any "blink" type effect will let you keep the creatures. They return as a new game object.
But I'll pick it up anyway because collection needs the new printings of the zombies.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
Yeah this duel deck is underwhelming for basically only using cards from Innistrad wich isn't an old block so they should still be comon making this duel deck kinda unecessary
Seriously, Gravecrawler and Geist are the only cards in here worth mentioning. They're like 95% of the value of the set. Oh well. These will sell for 15 bucks easily. The death spiral of the duel decks continues, sadly.
Feel free to tell me yours!
At a single copy, it would not have made the duel deck insanely powerful. They could even do 2 lords and it still wouldn't make it good without a reliable way of drawing or tutoring into it.
The original duel decks like divine vs demonic were perfect, fun and casual but had enough power so that it didn't feel like i threw all the cards together using a bulk commons box. DDs really took a nosedive since venser and koth and it's just sad. I bought DDs when they first came out and I definitely enjoyed playing them. They also served me well after it got boring because some of the cards can be used for other decks. Now it just looks like they're pushing the duel decks to face each other and nothing else
Gamewise, Divine vs. Demonic were the most atrocious DD ever made. The decks completely missed each other, and it was essentially a two-player solitaire.
Even Venser vs. Koth were better.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I've been collecting DDs since Divine vs. Demonic. That one was terrible for playing, but it was worth buying for foil Akroma and alternative art demonic tutor. Everything else in there was chaff though. I mean, Angelic Page? Demon's Jester? OVEREAGER APPRENTICE?! Duel decks have always had bad cards in them, its just that some have more valuable reprints than others.
Sometimes DDs can surprise you though. Sorin vs. Tibalt looked terrible, but if you actually play them out, they were amazing, despite having less than valuable cards (lingering souls and sorin aside). I'll be proxy testing this DD before judging it. I'm excited for this one since both of them have blue (which is underrepresented in DD) and no red (which is over represented in DD).
BUG Reanimator
BWG Nic-Fit
BGR Punishing Nic-Fit
One interesting side note: Topplegeist- You've come a long way, Suntail Hawk (or, more accurately, Lantern Kami).
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
On Tooth Collector and Topplegeist: I really, really, REALLY hope we see more art like this in SOI and not the mediocre CG fest we were subjected to in BFZ and OGW. Like, look at Topplegeist's little baby finger! I can almost hear him knock over a candle and giggle his ghostly butt off while levitating down the hallway.
-Chandra Nalaar
These sell at Wal Mart, there's way much more product than there is demand, even the most in demand ever Elspeth vs Tezzeret, was easy to find at big box stores for MSRP.
And now we get ******* KTK common duals as 4-ofs instead of a single slow-fetch, tainted land or any other interesting old uncommon land that hasn't been reprinted in the modern border? It's like facelifting good, cheap cards for people who collect them physically hurts them or something.
This is just two Intro Decks with a foil Mythic each (and the demon barely feels mythic). These don't feel like the original duel decks at all and I know, I have them all, many in multiples. This product line has gone down the drain the hardest both in collectible value and playability. The last decks capable of beating Liliana or Garruk were Sorin and Tibalt, and GvS is not the top of the DD power level, they're just good, fun decks with the capability to entertain.
Only 4 new arts, no MBB first timers, no constructed playables other than Geist, Gravecrawler and the new blink, singles of all but the worst cards and not even ONE old ONS zombie in the DD: Spirits vs Zombies? **** this *****.
Why does WotC hate selling product so much? They need to fire their sales adivsors ASAP because that "selling product across target audiences is bad" ***** is hurting their numbers and hurting the products we the players have access to.
And even when these products are available at big retailers, there is a lot to be said about availability at game stores as well. The stock problems become even more dramatic there, and Wizards has a vested interest in keeping Magic purchases flowing at these locations. You can't play FNM or do drafts at Wal-Mart, after all. And they have a vested interest in making sure there is a variety of product available for the casual play crowd as well as the more invested or "serious" players as well. They've tried a lot of similar products in recent years to try cater to that audience (Clash packs, those semi-random battle pack things, etc.) and it seems Duel Decks are the only ones that have been selling well to them, since they're the only ones that haven't been left by the wayside. When something has not been working for them, financially or otherwise, they have abandoned the practice. They know a hell of a lot more about their sales numbers and their demographic information than we do, and they're working with that data to get the results they want in the way that's most effective. If there's been a change in Duel Deck design, it's for a reason, and not an arbitrary one.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
2. I love the art on Topplegeist. I didn't even read its effect. Also going into the Geist and Angel EDH deck I'm making. Man I love Innistrad. Can't believe how much I've missed it. This amazing art is making me excited and nostalgic and everything. I can't imagine when we Return to Theros. I'll probably explode.
3. This set is going to be a return set done right. I can already sense it. Nothing like terrible BFZ.
4. Eerie Interlude is insane! Very strong card. I'm impressed. Theme is on point too. UGH I just want everything.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
On phasing:
Game 1 -
ZombiesCursed wins the dice roll and has to choose between blue mana (tap land) for a screeching skaab and a turn 1 diregraf ghoul. I lead with the ghoul.HumansBlessed goes turn 1 cathedral sanctifier. Cursed draws an island and screeching skaab comes down, milling two. I attack with my ghoul and Blessed chooses not to block. Blessed has yet to draw an island, so it enchants the sanctifier with bonds of faith and swings for three. Sadly, Blessed doesn't draw an island for the rest of the game as Cursed plays more zombies. Blessed has the removal though, rebuke on unbreathing horde and fiend hunter for diregraf captain. Mindwrack Demon comes down though, and the game ends shortly as Blessed can't even chump block after tooth collector starts triggering (Delirium is easy to trigger when you can mill yourself!)Game 2 -
Fiend hunter eats a butcher ghoul so thraben heteric begins the beats. Cursed plays a skaab and exiles a flier with appetite for brains. Blessed plays a grey ogre of some sort and continues the attack. Blessed chumps with the skaab. Cursed plays moan of the unhallowed to stabilize. Blessed plays a couple of creatures and gains some life. An unbreathing horde comes down and a removal spell clears out the heteric. Blessed casts increasing devotion and suddenly the humans have won the numbers game. The zombies recruit a traitorous human in tooth collector, but he's not crazy enough to start picking off the townsfolk yet. Blessed begins changing the tides as it plays a couple of angels. The zombies are forced to take a couple hits, but a Mindwrack demon stabilizes the air.
Although Cursed is forced to take 4 from its demon, another skaab triggers delirium. Blessed has gained almost twenty life this game, but it's clear that the board is turning back in the zombie's favor. Compelling deterrence does an amazing recoil as goldnight redeemer is bounced and then discarded. Blessed flashbacks increasing devotion, but sever the bloodline means that faith can't save the human army. Blessed is now at 4, with tooth collector picking off random weenies here and there. Blessed knows its on it's fateful hour when it gather the townsfolk, but Cursed soars over head for the win.
Thoughts:
The decks do an amazing job capturing the feel of the original innistrad set and there appears to be enough removal to give the decks enough interaction. The new SOI cards made their impact and are fun, as delirium is a mini-game all by itself. Cursed feels like the stronger deck, but its difficult to tell with only two games, especially since Blessed was color-screwed in game 1. So far though, I would purchase this DD if I wanted recreate the original innistrad experience.