Remember that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to be entirely Lovecraftian, they're also part Galactus. They're world-eating and reality-warping monstrosities.
As for why I think there might be Eldrazi presence on Innistrad, again I point to Mindbreaker Demon. Compare it to all the other Demons of Innistrad. Most of them have a fairly traditional "horned man with bat wings" look. But Mindbreaker Demon? It looks like an alien monstrosity, and Emrakul was mentioned to be capable of warping lifeforms. The colored marks on its body have shapes simialr to what one might find on the Eldrazi, and the blue-purple-red color scheme is also commonly associated with Eldrazi.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Remember that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to be entirely Lovecraftian, they're also part Galactus. They're world-eating and reality-warping monstrosities.
As for why I think there might be Eldrazi presence on Innistrad, again I point to Mindbreaker Demon. Compare it to all the other Demons of Innistrad. Most of them have a fairly traditional "horned man with bat wings" look. But Mindbreaker Demon? It looks like an alien monstrosity, and Emrakul was mentioned to be capable of warping lifeforms. The colored marks on its body have shapes simialr to what one might find on the Eldrazi, and the blue-purple-red color scheme is also commonly associated with Eldrazi.
The only thing that is consistent about demons is that they aren't. Although several of the previous Demons from the plane have appeared as you said, several of them have not. Harvester of Souls, Renegade Demon, Soulcage Fiend and Treacherous Pit-Dweller specifically stand out.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I don't think it has to be Emrakul. It could very well be that Garruk, desperate for cure now, takes Vronos's advice and returns to Innistrad. Avacyn's solution could be to take the curse onto herself thinking she could handle it better than he could. Now instead of keeping the balance between humans, vampires and werewolves she kills all beings she comes across. This could lead Sorin to have to choose between trying to find a cure while she slaugthers the inhabitants of Innistrad or destroying his creation.
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Thanks to XenoNinja at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig.
I don't think it has to be Emrakul. It could very well be that Garruk, desperate for cure now, takes Vronos's advice and returns to Innistrad. Avacyn's solution could be to take the curse onto herself thinking she could handle it better than he could. Now instead of keeping the balance between humans, vampires and werewolves she kills all beings she comes across. This could lead Sorin to have to choose between trying to find a cure while she slaugthers the inhabitants of Innistrad or destroying his creation.
This sounds really interesting. I would love to see what Garruk is up to
I don't think it has to be Emrakul. It could very well be that Garruk, desperate for cure now, takes Vronos's advice and returns to Innistrad. Avacyn's solution could be to take the curse onto herself thinking she could handle it better than he could. Now instead of keeping the balance between humans, vampires and werewolves she kills all beings she comes across. This could lead Sorin to have to choose between trying to find a cure while she slaugthers the inhabitants of Innistrad or destroying his creation.
This sounds really interesting. I would love to see what Garruk is up to
He is hunting planeswalkers.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Except, the Eldrazi are about as Lovecraftian as Homer Simpson. Yeah, sure they are Tentacled Eldritch Abominations that want to eat the world, but they are not Lovecraftian. There is no sense of dread and inescapable doom with the Eldrazi. They are more akin to a force of nature than a lovecraftian horror.
While everything you say may be true, the question was 'why does the Emrakul theory keep surfacing?' Regardless of how genuinely Lovecraftian or not they may be, the pop-culture view of Cthulhu et al is 'big, alien, tentacley thing' and Emrakul fits that perception to a tee. Maro himself said the 'Galactus-meets-Cthulhu' comment, so again, the legitimacy of the comparison to the *actual* works of Lovecraft is irrelevant: people go 'Innistrad/Innsmouth, ergo Lovecraft, ergo Emrakul'. That's all it takes for the theory to refuse to die.
Except, the Eldrazi are about as Lovecraftian as Homer Simpson. Yeah, sure they are Tentacled Eldritch Abominations that want to eat the world, but they are not Lovecraftian. There is no sense of dread and inescapable doom with the Eldrazi. They are more akin to a force of nature than a lovecraftian horror.
While everything you say may be true, the question was 'why does the Emrakul theory keep surfacing?' Regardless of how genuinely Lovecraftian or not they may be, the pop-culture view of Cthulhu et al is 'big, alien, tentacley thing' and Emrakul fits that perception to a tee. Maro himself said the 'Galactus-meets-Cthulhu' comment, so again, the legitimacy of the comparison to the *actual* works of Lovecraft is irrelevant: people go 'Innistrad/Innsmouth, ergo Lovecraft, ergo Emrakul'. That's all it takes for the theory to refuse to die.
Just because people in general are uneducated, it does not mean that they are even remotely correct. Pushing Emrakul on us so close to BFZ block is just bad storytelling, particularly after WotC has made a huge spiel about more connected storytelling in the vein of comics, you don't spend your grand villain all at once, you vary it to keep interest in the story going. By the end of the weatherlight saga people where sick and tired of the whole friggin thing (not to mention a lot of out of character moments that led up to Urza outright murdering his strongest ally, but I digress). MaRo (and the storyline team) has spent years studying comics and storytelling in general to allow for a flowing, coherent, but also dynamic and changing storyline, this is part of why they changed the block structure like they did (not the only reason mind you, but part of it), because they kept ending up with a third act that was disconnected from the rest of the block (Rise of the Eldrazi and Avacyn Restored are prime examples). "The main story is over, but we still have a set to fill, here's something else that happened on the plane." And each time they did, they lost players, the disconnect between the sets was to friggin big. Now we get the Gatewatch to connect the various storylines, while allowing for each block to do its own separate thing. But I am getting of track here.
But yeah, Lovecraft's horror was never about the huge world ending abominations. It was about that no matter what we did, no matter how far we came, in the end we will lose. Heck, the original version of The Call of Cthulhu even showed it perfectly, the protagonist of the story rams a god damn battleship through the Great Old One himself, and loses his mind when he realizes that the only thing it did was mildly annoy Cthulhu. And this wasn't even the true Cthulhu, put a pale shadow of the actual entity. Thus the protagonist eventually gave into despair because he realized that it was all for naught. Heck, the first popular movie to get the feel of Lovecraftian horror right was Alien, it made people afraid of what lurks in the shadows, actual primal, unknown fear. And the really freaky part about the Mythos is that these things that have become part of our pop-culture psyche was not even the nastiest things out there. Shoggots are pretty low on the totem pole of horrors, barely above deep ones and elder things. Dagon and Mother Hydra are slightly above that, and Cthulhu himself is a mere high priest of even more powerful beings, who themselves are mere ants compared to the blind idiot god Azathoth who created everything by accident, and will end it all the same way. There is no escape in Lovecraftian horror, no matter what you do, no matter where you go, it will all be for naught and will be utterly meaningless. The Eldrazi never captured anything even close to that level of horror, they where just another natural disaster, although one that was mobile. Innistrad on the the other hand captures the bleakness that is lovecraftian horror perfectly, because, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the humans on Innistrad are just unknowing cattle to the vampires and demons of the plane. Mikaeus figured it out shortly before dying, which is why he kept Avacyn getting imprisoned in the Helvault a secret. It was preferable to him to have the vampires wipe out human kind on the plane rather than continuing on as cattle. Avacyn is a literal Shepherd watching over her flock, and that is the true horror of Innistrad. Humanity on the plane is FUBAR'ed, and they don't even know it. They can't win. Zendikar provided hope, Innistradi humans have none.
Incidentally, if anyone who reads this thread and hasn't sought out the works of H.P. Lovecraft, you should do so. I recommend starting with "Shadow Over Innsmouth". Just be aware that you will get nightmares. The stories themselves don't feel so scary when you read them, but afterwards, when you dream, that's when the horror sets in. Unless you have one or more cats.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I don't think it has to be Emrakul. It could very well be that Garruk, desperate for cure now, takes Vronos's advice and returns to Innistrad. Avacyn's solution could be to take the curse onto herself thinking she could handle it better than he could. Now instead of keeping the balance between humans, vampires and werewolves she kills all beings she comes across. This could lead Sorin to have to choose between trying to find a cure while she slaugthers the inhabitants of Innistrad or destroying his creation.
This sounds really interesting. I would love to see what Garruk is up to
He is hunting planeswalkers.
If Liliana or Sorin is on Innistrad I could very much see him being there.
I don't think it has to be Emrakul. It could very well be that Garruk, desperate for cure now, takes Vronos's advice and returns to Innistrad. Avacyn's solution could be to take the curse onto herself thinking she could handle it better than he could. Now instead of keeping the balance between humans, vampires and werewolves she kills all beings she comes across. This could lead Sorin to have to choose between trying to find a cure while she slaugthers the inhabitants of Innistrad or destroying his creation.
This sounds really interesting. I would love to see what Garruk is up to
He is hunting planeswalkers.
If Liliana or Sorin is on Innistrad I could very much see him being there.
He doesn't really have a reason to be there. Also we know he left during the M15 story. Garruk doesn't want to be cured, he wants to hunt the most dangerous game. If someone clued him in on Bolas being the (allegedly) most powerful planeswalker, I could see him try to take on the dragon.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Bit of a rant there, so I snipped it to save space, since I'm likely to rant as well I'm a fan of Lovecraft myself (started reading something like 12 years ago) so I get the whole point of the Eldrazi not actually behaving or having similar abilities to Cthulhu, nor having anything close to the sense of dread and inescapable, bleak horror that defines Lovecraft's works. However, in their lore, the Eldrazi are giant, unfathomable, tentacled, cosmic entities with too many limbs. You're ignoring some pretty blatant inspiration because you don't like the comparison. They look like Lovecraftian monstrosities but act something closer to Galactus, hence the Galactus-meets-Cthulhu remark. The story where Tazri sees herself in the future as some sort of immortal servant to Kozilek pretty clearly has some Lovecraftian inspiration, even if the horror elements were only very loosely (and somewhat amateurishly) included.
That said, I think Emrakul's powers in particular could be good for bringing a more Lovecraftian tone to Innistrad. Like you said yourself, the plane is already very good for that in the terms of the human situation on Innistrad. Emrakul's ability to transform the very biology of creatures could lead to some fairly gruesome and Lovecraftian transformations like the human/Deep One transformations in The Shadow Over Innsmouth. Emrakul could very well be more of a behind-the-scenes terror, rather than the destructive force of nature that Ulamog and Kozilek are in BFZ-block.
I also don't think it would necessarily be bad story-telling, either. Part of the problem with Magic's story in general has been the drastic disconnect from one expansion to the next. They've often had absolutely nothing to do with each other. Oftentimes not even having any of the same characters involved at all. That was bad storytelling. I also don't look at Emrakul as the biggest grand villain, though. Or even a villain at all, at least not any more than an asteroid heading towards a planet is. Ob Nixilis, Nicol Bolas, the Phyrexians, the Raven Man, the Onakke trying to return through the Chain Veil... there are a ton of loose threads right now in Magic's story. Too many, I think. I wouldn't be too upset about them closing one or more of those threads soon. We don't even know that the three titans are the only Eldrazi out there. There are a ton of possibilities, and we're talking about a story that's going to span years and years, with each blocks story taking six months to tell. I don't think closing the door on the known Eldrazi within this year would be moving too fast at all, all things considered.
Not that I actually think that's likely to happen, but I wouldn't be upset if it did.
Bit of a rant there, so I snipped it to save space, since I'm likely to rant as well I'm a fan of Lovecraft myself (started reading something like 12 years ago) so I get the whole point of the Eldrazi not actually behaving or having similar abilities to Cthulhu, nor having anything close to the sense of dread and inescapable, bleak horror that defines Lovecraft's works. However, in their lore, the Eldrazi are giant, unfathomable, tentacled, cosmic entities with too many limbs. You're ignoring some pretty blatant inspiration because you don't like the comparison. They look like Lovecraftian monstrosities but act something closer to Galactus, hence the Galactus-meets-Cthulhu remark. The story where Tazri sees herself in the future as some sort of immortal servant to Kozilek pretty clearly has some Lovecraftian inspiration, even if the horror elements were only very loosely (and somewhat amateurishly) included.
That said, I think Emrakul's powers in particular could be good for bringing a more Lovecraftian tone to Innistrad. Like you said yourself, the plane is already very good for that in the terms of the human situation on Innistrad. Emrakul's ability to transform the very biology of creatures could lead to some fairly gruesome and Lovecraftian transformations like the human/Deep One transformations in The Shadow Over Innsmouth. Emrakul could very well be more of a behind-the-scenes terror, rather than the destructive force of nature that Ulamog and Kozilek are in BFZ-block.
I also don't think it would necessarily be bad story-telling, either. Part of the problem with Magic's story in general has been the drastic disconnect from one expansion to the next. They've often had absolutely nothing to do with each other. Oftentimes not even having any of the same characters involved at all. That was bad storytelling. I also don't look at Emrakul as the biggest grand villain, though. Or even a villain at all, at least not any more than an asteroid heading towards a planet is. Ob Nixilis, Nicol Bolas, the Phyrexians, the Raven Man, the Onakke trying to return through the Chain Veil... there are a ton of loose threads right now in Magic's story. Too many, I think. I wouldn't be too upset about them closing one or more of those threads soon. We don't even know that the three titans are the only Eldrazi out there. There are a ton of possibilities, and we're talking about a story that's going to span years and years, with each blocks story taking six months to tell. I don't think closing the door on the known Eldrazi within this year would be moving too fast at all, all things considered.
Not that I actually think that's likely to happen, but I wouldn't be upset if it did.
The Eldrazi are clearly inspired by the pop-culture version of the Mythos, but they are in no way Lovecraftian. Now Marit Lage is a proper Lovecraftian horror.
But honestly, you suggestion for Emrakul in Innistrad doesn't make a lick of sense. The whole point of the Eldrazi as we know them are that things like humanoids are entirely beneath them. Kiora's duel with Kozilek proved it without a doubt, it simply bisected Lorthos and completely ignored her like she wasn't even there. Much like a human thinks about ants, generally we don't really notice them milling about before they become an annoyance. The Gatewatch managed to become an annoyance, but before that they where pretty much ignored by the titans like everything else. Your suggestion would require Emrakul to have a malevolent intellect, something the Eldrazi have been show not to have. They are not malevolent, good, or evil, they simply are. They look like lovecraftian horrors, but they aren't, they're forces of nature plain and simple.
Now, Marit Lage on the other hand is aware of mortals, is sapient, malevolent, and capable of traversing the blind eternities...
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Bit of a rant there, so I snipped it to save space, since I'm likely to rant as well I'm a fan of Lovecraft myself (started reading something like 12 years ago) so I get the whole point of the Eldrazi not actually behaving or having similar abilities to Cthulhu, nor having anything close to the sense of dread and inescapable, bleak horror that defines Lovecraft's works. However, in their lore, the Eldrazi are giant, unfathomable, tentacled, cosmic entities with too many limbs. You're ignoring some pretty blatant inspiration because you don't like the comparison. They look like Lovecraftian monstrosities but act something closer to Galactus, hence the Galactus-meets-Cthulhu remark. The story where Tazri sees herself in the future as some sort of immortal servant to Kozilek pretty clearly has some Lovecraftian inspiration, even if the horror elements were only very loosely (and somewhat amateurishly) included.
That said, I think Emrakul's powers in particular could be good for bringing a more Lovecraftian tone to Innistrad. Like you said yourself, the plane is already very good for that in the terms of the human situation on Innistrad. Emrakul's ability to transform the very biology of creatures could lead to some fairly gruesome and Lovecraftian transformations like the human/Deep One transformations in The Shadow Over Innsmouth. Emrakul could very well be more of a behind-the-scenes terror, rather than the destructive force of nature that Ulamog and Kozilek are in BFZ-block.
I also don't think it would necessarily be bad story-telling, either. Part of the problem with Magic's story in general has been the drastic disconnect from one expansion to the next. They've often had absolutely nothing to do with each other. Oftentimes not even having any of the same characters involved at all. That was bad storytelling. I also don't look at Emrakul as the biggest grand villain, though. Or even a villain at all, at least not any more than an asteroid heading towards a planet is. Ob Nixilis, Nicol Bolas, the Phyrexians, the Raven Man, the Onakke trying to return through the Chain Veil... there are a ton of loose threads right now in Magic's story. Too many, I think. I wouldn't be too upset about them closing one or more of those threads soon. We don't even know that the three titans are the only Eldrazi out there. There are a ton of possibilities, and we're talking about a story that's going to span years and years, with each blocks story taking six months to tell. I don't think closing the door on the known Eldrazi within this year would be moving too fast at all, all things considered.
Not that I actually think that's likely to happen, but I wouldn't be upset if it did.
The Eldrazi are clearly inspired by the pop-culture version of the Mythos, but they are in no way Lovecraftian. Now Marit Lage is a proper Lovecraftian horror.
But honestly, you suggestion for Emrakul in Innistrad doesn't make a lick of sense. The whole point of the Eldrazi as we know them are that things like humanoids are entirely beneath them. Kiora's duel with Kozilek proved it without a doubt, it simply bisected Lorthos and completely ignored her like she wasn't even there. Much like a human thinks about ants, generally we don't really notice them milling about before they become an annoyance. The Gatewatch managed to become an annoyance, but before that they where pretty much ignored by the titans like everything else. Your suggestion would require Emrakul to have a malevolent intellect, something the Eldrazi have been show not to have. They are not malevolent, good, or evil, they simply are. They look like lovecraftian horrors, but they aren't, they're forces of nature plain and simple.
Now, Marit Lage on the other hand is aware of mortals, is sapient, malevolent, and capable of traversing the blind eternities...
Agreed on Marit Lage, but I don't think that Emrakul needs to have a malevolent intellect to go to Innistrad. Just a sense of self-preservation. Kiora was no threat to Kozilek, and he ignored her (and the others) as such. Sorin, on the other hand, was one of the three who imprisoned the titans on Zendikar. He, Ugin and Nahiri have already proven to be a threat to the titans (or at least to their freedom). They are already an annoyance, so it would make sense to not ignore them. Maybe Emrakul just wouldn't think about them at all. Maybe Emrakul just drifted to Innistrad by sheer coincidence. Hell, maybe Emrakul's still floating around Zendikar and just hasn't bothered to show herself yet. She does still have some spawn there, after all.
I honestly don't think that Emrakul will be on Zendikar, but there are any number of random reasons they could make up for that to be the case. Or even just no reason at all. I do think it's likely that she'll be featured in either the block after SOI or the block after that one, though. Maybe I'm just hoping they'll not leave such a huge loose end for once. From this block we already have Ob Nixilis on the loose for the Gatewatch to eventually hunt down, not to mention we still have no idea why the hell Bolas wanted the Eldrazi freed in the first place. They've always played it super safe every single block as far as leaving a bunch of loose story threads dangling for them to return to eventually. I would really, really like for them to actually end a story arc fairly neatly for once.
Side note: do we know what came of Marit Lage? Last I remember she was still frozen on Dominaria. Did that ever change in any of the events following ice age?
Is anyone else annoyed about people talking about Liliana not having a reason to be on Innistrad? Story can make one up. What reason did Chandra have to be on Zendikar? or Ajani on Theros?
Sure he does. If the hedron stalled the curse, Garruk could have gain his senses back and remembered what vronos said about Avacyn on Innistrad. Desperate to rid himself of the cure, he returns to Innistrad where Avacyn takes the curse upon herself corrupting herself in the process. Then, as a juicy climax, Garruk cannot leave Innistrad because the hedron is still within him. This means Garruk must hide from Avacyn. This means Garruk goes from Apex Predator to hiding from an angel deadset on destroying all life on Innistrad. Hey, Garruk could get a Legendary Creature card since the hedron saps his spark. Can you imagine the utter glee Liliana would feel seeing an angel slaughter humans, werewolves, vampires, and other angels??
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Thanks to XenoNinja at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig.
Remember that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to be entirely Lovecraftian, they're also part Galactus. They're world-eating and reality-warping monstrosities.
As for why I think there might be Eldrazi presence on Innistrad, again I point to Mindbreaker Demon. Compare it to all the other Demons of Innistrad. Most of them have a fairly traditional "horned man with bat wings" look. But Mindbreaker Demon? It looks like an alien monstrosity, and Emrakul was mentioned to be capable of warping lifeforms. The colored marks on its body have shapes simialr to what one might find on the Eldrazi, and the blue-purple-red color scheme is also commonly associated with Eldrazi.
The only thing that is consistent about demons is that they aren't. Although several of the previous Demons from the plane have appeared as you said, several of them have not. Harvester of Souls, Renegade Demon, Soulcage Fiend and Treacherous Pit-Dweller specifically stand out.
I did say "most". Do any of those look anywhere near as alien as Mindbreaker? Judging by the fact those four don't have flying, I'm guessing they're lesser Demons who serve the big nasties.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Sure he does. If the hedron stalled the curse, Garruk could have gain his senses back and remembered what vronos said about Avacyn on Innistrad. Desperate to rid himself of the cure, he returns to Innistrad where Avacyn takes the curse upon herself corrupting herself in the process. Then, as a juicy climax, Garruk cannot leave Innistrad because the hedron is still within him. This means Garruk must hide from Avacyn. This means Garruk goes from Apex Predator to hiding from an angel deadset on destroying all life on Innistrad. Hey, Garruk could get a Legendary Creature card since the hedron saps his spark. Can you imagine the utter glee Liliana would feel seeing an angel slaughter humans, werewolves, vampires, and other angels??
Garruk doesn't care that he's cursed anymore. He actually relishes his newfound bloodlust. If he would return to Innistrad, my guess is that his hedron becomes attracted to Nahiri's reawakened presence on the plane, so he follows the signal out of curiosity and for the opportunity of a challenge.
Bit of a rant there, so I snipped it to save space, since I'm likely to rant as well I'm a fan of Lovecraft myself (started reading something like 12 years ago) so I get the whole point of the Eldrazi not actually behaving or having similar abilities to Cthulhu, nor having anything close to the sense of dread and inescapable, bleak horror that defines Lovecraft's works. However, in their lore, the Eldrazi are giant, unfathomable, tentacled, cosmic entities with too many limbs. You're ignoring some pretty blatant inspiration because you don't like the comparison. They look like Lovecraftian monstrosities but act something closer to Galactus, hence the Galactus-meets-Cthulhu remark. The story where Tazri sees herself in the future as some sort of immortal servant to Kozilek pretty clearly has some Lovecraftian inspiration, even if the horror elements were only very loosely (and somewhat amateurishly) included.
That said, I think Emrakul's powers in particular could be good for bringing a more Lovecraftian tone to Innistrad. Like you said yourself, the plane is already very good for that in the terms of the human situation on Innistrad. Emrakul's ability to transform the very biology of creatures could lead to some fairly gruesome and Lovecraftian transformations like the human/Deep One transformations in The Shadow Over Innsmouth. Emrakul could very well be more of a behind-the-scenes terror, rather than the destructive force of nature that Ulamog and Kozilek are in BFZ-block.
I also don't think it would necessarily be bad story-telling, either. Part of the problem with Magic's story in general has been the drastic disconnect from one expansion to the next. They've often had absolutely nothing to do with each other. Oftentimes not even having any of the same characters involved at all. That was bad storytelling. I also don't look at Emrakul as the biggest grand villain, though. Or even a villain at all, at least not any more than an asteroid heading towards a planet is. Ob Nixilis, Nicol Bolas, the Phyrexians, the Raven Man, the Onakke trying to return through the Chain Veil... there are a ton of loose threads right now in Magic's story. Too many, I think. I wouldn't be too upset about them closing one or more of those threads soon. We don't even know that the three titans are the only Eldrazi out there. There are a ton of possibilities, and we're talking about a story that's going to span years and years, with each blocks story taking six months to tell. I don't think closing the door on the known Eldrazi within this year would be moving too fast at all, all things considered.
Not that I actually think that's likely to happen, but I wouldn't be upset if it did.
The Eldrazi are clearly inspired by the pop-culture version of the Mythos, but they are in no way Lovecraftian. Now Marit Lage is a proper Lovecraftian horror.
But honestly, you suggestion for Emrakul in Innistrad doesn't make a lick of sense. The whole point of the Eldrazi as we know them are that things like humanoids are entirely beneath them. Kiora's duel with Kozilek proved it without a doubt, it simply bisected Lorthos and completely ignored her like she wasn't even there. Much like a human thinks about ants, generally we don't really notice them milling about before they become an annoyance. The Gatewatch managed to become an annoyance, but before that they where pretty much ignored by the titans like everything else. Your suggestion would require Emrakul to have a malevolent intellect, something the Eldrazi have been show not to have. They are not malevolent, good, or evil, they simply are. They look like lovecraftian horrors, but they aren't, they're forces of nature plain and simple.
Now, Marit Lage on the other hand is aware of mortals, is sapient, malevolent, and capable of traversing the blind eternities...
Agreed on Marit Lage, but I don't think that Emrakul needs to have a malevolent intellect to go to Innistrad. Just a sense of self-preservation. Kiora was no threat to Kozilek, and he ignored her (and the others) as such. Sorin, on the other hand, was one of the three who imprisoned the titans on Zendikar. He, Ugin and Nahiri have already proven to be a threat to the titans (or at least to their freedom). They are already an annoyance, so it would make sense to not ignore them. Maybe Emrakul just wouldn't think about them at all. Maybe Emrakul just drifted to Innistrad by sheer coincidence. Hell, maybe Emrakul's still floating around Zendikar and just hasn't bothered to show herself yet. She does still have some spawn there, after all.
I honestly don't think that Emrakul will be on Zendikar, but there are any number of random reasons they could make up for that to be the case. Or even just no reason at all. I do think it's likely that she'll be featured in either the block after SOI or the block after that one, though. Maybe I'm just hoping they'll not leave such a huge loose end for once. From this block we already have Ob Nixilis on the loose for the Gatewatch to eventually hunt down, not to mention we still have no idea why the hell Bolas wanted the Eldrazi freed in the first place. They've always played it super safe every single block as far as leaving a bunch of loose story threads dangling for them to return to eventually. I would really, really like for them to actually end a story arc fairly neatly for once.
Side note: do we know what came of Marit Lage? Last I remember she was still frozen on Dominaria. Did that ever change in any of the events following ice age?
Emrakul is still much more likely to appear on a plane that, like Zendikar, is abundant in mana. Something Innistrad is not (it's more average in mana). Of the planes we know of, that would mean either Shandalar or Alara, and that is if it is a plane we know of.
As for Marit Lage, she thawed out at the end of the Ice Age when the glacier imprisoning her melted, she then "disappeared". We know she is no longer on Dominaria, but exactly where she is, is currently unknown.
Is anyone else annoyed about people talking about Liliana not having a reason to be on Innistrad? Story can make one up. What reason did Chandra have to be on Zendikar? or Ajani on Theros?
Chandra went to Zendikar because she was feeling guilty due to her part in accidentally freeing the Eldrazi.
Ajani went to Theros to visit his close friend Elspeth.
Both had valid reasons to show up. Lily does not. She is done with Innistrad, she got what she wanted and left.
Sure he does. If the hedron stalled the curse, Garruk could have gain his senses back and remembered what vronos said about Avacyn on Innistrad. Desperate to rid himself of the cure, he returns to Innistrad where Avacyn takes the curse upon herself corrupting herself in the process. Then, as a juicy climax, Garruk cannot leave Innistrad because the hedron is still within him. This means Garruk must hide from Avacyn. This means Garruk goes from Apex Predator to hiding from an angel deadset on destroying all life on Innistrad. Hey, Garruk could get a Legendary Creature card since the hedron saps his spark. Can you imagine the utter glee Liliana would feel seeing an angel slaughter humans, werewolves, vampires, and other angels??
Garruk doesn't care that he's cursed anymore. He actually relishes his newfound bloodlust. If he would return to Innistrad, my guess is that his hedron becomes attracted to Nahiri's reawakened presence on the plane, so he follows the signal out of curiosity and for the opportunity of a challenge.
Nahiri is still not on Innistrad. We don't know where she is, but Innistrad it isn't. We know this. Sorin knows this.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Remember that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to be entirely Lovecraftian, they're also part Galactus. They're world-eating and reality-warping monstrosities.
As for why I think there might be Eldrazi presence on Innistrad, again I point to Mindbreaker Demon. Compare it to all the other Demons of Innistrad. Most of them have a fairly traditional "horned man with bat wings" look. But Mindbreaker Demon? It looks like an alien monstrosity, and Emrakul was mentioned to be capable of warping lifeforms. The colored marks on its body have shapes simialr to what one might find on the Eldrazi, and the blue-purple-red color scheme is also commonly associated with Eldrazi.
The only thing that is consistent about demons is that they aren't. Although several of the previous Demons from the plane have appeared as you said, several of them have not. Harvester of Souls, Renegade Demon, Soulcage Fiend and Treacherous Pit-Dweller specifically stand out.
I did say "most". Do any of those look anywhere near as alien as Mindbreaker? Judging by the fact those four don't have flying, I'm guessing they're lesser Demons who serve the big nasties.
I think both the Shadows over Innistrad = Shadow over Innsmouth and the Demon art connections are very weak indeed.
The name reference is not very particular, the term "shadow over" to associate some kind of lurking danger is much older than Lovecrafts works. If you goolge "shadow over" you will find numerable fantasies using this term within the first few pages, none of them actually having much to do with Lavecraft.
The demon art isn't telling much either. First off, it's the Duel Decks art, which has always been different to the one printed in the following set, so I could use your argument against it, that Wizards put it on the DD card because it was too alien for the actual Innistrad block. Anyways, I can't see the resemblance to Emrakul (or her influences), neither in art nor in mechanics.
Incidentally, if anyone who reads this thread and hasn't sought out the works of H.P. Lovecraft, you should do so. I recommend starting with "Shadow Over Innsmouth". Just be aware that you will get nightmares. The stories themselves don't feel so scary when you read them, but afterwards, when you dream, that's when the horror sets in. Unless you have one or more cats.
I just purchased The Call of Cthulu as my first one yesterday. It should be arriving tomorrow.
Is anyone else annoyed about people talking about Liliana not having a reason to be on Innistrad? Story can make one up. What reason did Chandra have to be on Zendikar? or Ajani on Theros?
Chandra and Ajani had friends who needed help. Lili doesn't do friends very well. (Just ask Jace.)
The only two plot threads Liliana is part of right now are her remaining demons, and the return of the Onakke. The former no longer has any connection to Innistrad, now that Griselbrand is dead, and the latter never did.
Expecting Liliana to show up in Shadows is like if you expected Sarkhan to show up in BfZ just because he was in the last Zendikar block.
Remember that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to be entirely Lovecraftian, they're also part Galactus. They're world-eating and reality-warping monstrosities.
As for why I think there might be Eldrazi presence on Innistrad, again I point to Mindbreaker Demon. Compare it to all the other Demons of Innistrad. Most of them have a fairly traditional "horned man with bat wings" look. But Mindbreaker Demon? It looks like an alien monstrosity, and Emrakul was mentioned to be capable of warping lifeforms. The colored marks on its body have shapes simialr to what one might find on the Eldrazi, and the blue-purple-red color scheme is also commonly associated with Eldrazi.
The only thing that is consistent about demons is that they aren't. Although several of the previous Demons from the plane have appeared as you said, several of them have not. Harvester of Souls, Renegade Demon, Soulcage Fiend and Treacherous Pit-Dweller specifically stand out.
I did say "most". Do any of those look anywhere near as alien as Mindbreaker? Judging by the fact those four don't have flying, I'm guessing they're lesser Demons who serve the big nasties.
As for why I think there might be Eldrazi presence on Innistrad, again I point to Mindbreaker Demon. Compare it to all the other Demons of Innistrad. Most of them have a fairly traditional "horned man with bat wings" look. But Mindbreaker Demon? It looks like an alien monstrosity, and Emrakul was mentioned to be capable of warping lifeforms. The colored marks on its body have shapes simialr to what one might find on the Eldrazi, and the blue-purple-red color scheme is also commonly associated with Eldrazi.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
The only thing that is consistent about demons is that they aren't. Although several of the previous Demons from the plane have appeared as you said, several of them have not. Harvester of Souls, Renegade Demon, Soulcage Fiend and Treacherous Pit-Dweller specifically stand out.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Thanks to XenoNinja at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig.
This sounds really interesting. I would love to see what Garruk is up to
He is hunting planeswalkers.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
While everything you say may be true, the question was 'why does the Emrakul theory keep surfacing?' Regardless of how genuinely Lovecraftian or not they may be, the pop-culture view of Cthulhu et al is 'big, alien, tentacley thing' and Emrakul fits that perception to a tee. Maro himself said the 'Galactus-meets-Cthulhu' comment, so again, the legitimacy of the comparison to the *actual* works of Lovecraft is irrelevant: people go 'Innistrad/Innsmouth, ergo Lovecraft, ergo Emrakul'. That's all it takes for the theory to refuse to die.
Just because people in general are uneducated, it does not mean that they are even remotely correct. Pushing Emrakul on us so close to BFZ block is just bad storytelling, particularly after WotC has made a huge spiel about more connected storytelling in the vein of comics, you don't spend your grand villain all at once, you vary it to keep interest in the story going. By the end of the weatherlight saga people where sick and tired of the whole friggin thing (not to mention a lot of out of character moments that led up to Urza outright murdering his strongest ally, but I digress). MaRo (and the storyline team) has spent years studying comics and storytelling in general to allow for a flowing, coherent, but also dynamic and changing storyline, this is part of why they changed the block structure like they did (not the only reason mind you, but part of it), because they kept ending up with a third act that was disconnected from the rest of the block (Rise of the Eldrazi and Avacyn Restored are prime examples). "The main story is over, but we still have a set to fill, here's something else that happened on the plane." And each time they did, they lost players, the disconnect between the sets was to friggin big. Now we get the Gatewatch to connect the various storylines, while allowing for each block to do its own separate thing. But I am getting of track here.
But yeah, Lovecraft's horror was never about the huge world ending abominations. It was about that no matter what we did, no matter how far we came, in the end we will lose. Heck, the original version of The Call of Cthulhu even showed it perfectly, the protagonist of the story rams a god damn battleship through the Great Old One himself, and loses his mind when he realizes that the only thing it did was mildly annoy Cthulhu. And this wasn't even the true Cthulhu, put a pale shadow of the actual entity. Thus the protagonist eventually gave into despair because he realized that it was all for naught. Heck, the first popular movie to get the feel of Lovecraftian horror right was Alien, it made people afraid of what lurks in the shadows, actual primal, unknown fear. And the really freaky part about the Mythos is that these things that have become part of our pop-culture psyche was not even the nastiest things out there. Shoggots are pretty low on the totem pole of horrors, barely above deep ones and elder things. Dagon and Mother Hydra are slightly above that, and Cthulhu himself is a mere high priest of even more powerful beings, who themselves are mere ants compared to the blind idiot god Azathoth who created everything by accident, and will end it all the same way. There is no escape in Lovecraftian horror, no matter what you do, no matter where you go, it will all be for naught and will be utterly meaningless. The Eldrazi never captured anything even close to that level of horror, they where just another natural disaster, although one that was mobile. Innistrad on the the other hand captures the bleakness that is lovecraftian horror perfectly, because, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the humans on Innistrad are just unknowing cattle to the vampires and demons of the plane. Mikaeus figured it out shortly before dying, which is why he kept Avacyn getting imprisoned in the Helvault a secret. It was preferable to him to have the vampires wipe out human kind on the plane rather than continuing on as cattle. Avacyn is a literal Shepherd watching over her flock, and that is the true horror of Innistrad. Humanity on the plane is FUBAR'ed, and they don't even know it. They can't win. Zendikar provided hope, Innistradi humans have none.
Incidentally, if anyone who reads this thread and hasn't sought out the works of H.P. Lovecraft, you should do so. I recommend starting with "Shadow Over Innsmouth". Just be aware that you will get nightmares. The stories themselves don't feel so scary when you read them, but afterwards, when you dream, that's when the horror sets in. Unless you have one or more cats.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
If Liliana or Sorin is on Innistrad I could very much see him being there.
He doesn't really have a reason to be there. Also we know he left during the M15 story. Garruk doesn't want to be cured, he wants to hunt the most dangerous game. If someone clued him in on Bolas being the (allegedly) most powerful planeswalker, I could see him try to take on the dragon.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Bit of a rant there, so I snipped it to save space, since I'm likely to rant as well I'm a fan of Lovecraft myself (started reading something like 12 years ago) so I get the whole point of the Eldrazi not actually behaving or having similar abilities to Cthulhu, nor having anything close to the sense of dread and inescapable, bleak horror that defines Lovecraft's works. However, in their lore, the Eldrazi are giant, unfathomable, tentacled, cosmic entities with too many limbs. You're ignoring some pretty blatant inspiration because you don't like the comparison. They look like Lovecraftian monstrosities but act something closer to Galactus, hence the Galactus-meets-Cthulhu remark. The story where Tazri sees herself in the future as some sort of immortal servant to Kozilek pretty clearly has some Lovecraftian inspiration, even if the horror elements were only very loosely (and somewhat amateurishly) included.
That said, I think Emrakul's powers in particular could be good for bringing a more Lovecraftian tone to Innistrad. Like you said yourself, the plane is already very good for that in the terms of the human situation on Innistrad. Emrakul's ability to transform the very biology of creatures could lead to some fairly gruesome and Lovecraftian transformations like the human/Deep One transformations in The Shadow Over Innsmouth. Emrakul could very well be more of a behind-the-scenes terror, rather than the destructive force of nature that Ulamog and Kozilek are in BFZ-block.
I also don't think it would necessarily be bad story-telling, either. Part of the problem with Magic's story in general has been the drastic disconnect from one expansion to the next. They've often had absolutely nothing to do with each other. Oftentimes not even having any of the same characters involved at all. That was bad storytelling. I also don't look at Emrakul as the biggest grand villain, though. Or even a villain at all, at least not any more than an asteroid heading towards a planet is. Ob Nixilis, Nicol Bolas, the Phyrexians, the Raven Man, the Onakke trying to return through the Chain Veil... there are a ton of loose threads right now in Magic's story. Too many, I think. I wouldn't be too upset about them closing one or more of those threads soon. We don't even know that the three titans are the only Eldrazi out there. There are a ton of possibilities, and we're talking about a story that's going to span years and years, with each blocks story taking six months to tell. I don't think closing the door on the known Eldrazi within this year would be moving too fast at all, all things considered.
Not that I actually think that's likely to happen, but I wouldn't be upset if it did.
The Eldrazi are clearly inspired by the pop-culture version of the Mythos, but they are in no way Lovecraftian. Now Marit Lage is a proper Lovecraftian horror.
But honestly, you suggestion for Emrakul in Innistrad doesn't make a lick of sense. The whole point of the Eldrazi as we know them are that things like humanoids are entirely beneath them. Kiora's duel with Kozilek proved it without a doubt, it simply bisected Lorthos and completely ignored her like she wasn't even there. Much like a human thinks about ants, generally we don't really notice them milling about before they become an annoyance. The Gatewatch managed to become an annoyance, but before that they where pretty much ignored by the titans like everything else. Your suggestion would require Emrakul to have a malevolent intellect, something the Eldrazi have been show not to have. They are not malevolent, good, or evil, they simply are. They look like lovecraftian horrors, but they aren't, they're forces of nature plain and simple.
Now, Marit Lage on the other hand is aware of mortals, is sapient, malevolent, and capable of traversing the blind eternities...
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Agreed on Marit Lage, but I don't think that Emrakul needs to have a malevolent intellect to go to Innistrad. Just a sense of self-preservation. Kiora was no threat to Kozilek, and he ignored her (and the others) as such. Sorin, on the other hand, was one of the three who imprisoned the titans on Zendikar. He, Ugin and Nahiri have already proven to be a threat to the titans (or at least to their freedom). They are already an annoyance, so it would make sense to not ignore them. Maybe Emrakul just wouldn't think about them at all. Maybe Emrakul just drifted to Innistrad by sheer coincidence. Hell, maybe Emrakul's still floating around Zendikar and just hasn't bothered to show herself yet. She does still have some spawn there, after all.
I honestly don't think that Emrakul will be on Zendikar, but there are any number of random reasons they could make up for that to be the case. Or even just no reason at all. I do think it's likely that she'll be featured in either the block after SOI or the block after that one, though. Maybe I'm just hoping they'll not leave such a huge loose end for once. From this block we already have Ob Nixilis on the loose for the Gatewatch to eventually hunt down, not to mention we still have no idea why the hell Bolas wanted the Eldrazi freed in the first place. They've always played it super safe every single block as far as leaving a bunch of loose story threads dangling for them to return to eventually. I would really, really like for them to actually end a story arc fairly neatly for once.
Side note: do we know what came of Marit Lage? Last I remember she was still frozen on Dominaria. Did that ever change in any of the events following ice age?
But i do think Emrakul will be there.
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Thanks to XenoNinja at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig.
I did say "most". Do any of those look anywhere near as alien as Mindbreaker? Judging by the fact those four don't have flying, I'm guessing they're lesser Demons who serve the big nasties.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Emrakul is still much more likely to appear on a plane that, like Zendikar, is abundant in mana. Something Innistrad is not (it's more average in mana). Of the planes we know of, that would mean either Shandalar or Alara, and that is if it is a plane we know of.
As for Marit Lage, she thawed out at the end of the Ice Age when the glacier imprisoning her melted, she then "disappeared". We know she is no longer on Dominaria, but exactly where she is, is currently unknown.
Chandra went to Zendikar because she was feeling guilty due to her part in accidentally freeing the Eldrazi.
Ajani went to Theros to visit his close friend Elspeth.
Both had valid reasons to show up. Lily does not. She is done with Innistrad, she got what she wanted and left.
Nahiri is still not on Innistrad. We don't know where she is, but Innistrad it isn't. We know this. Sorin knows this.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Sorry but what´s happening in the weekend?
I think both the Shadows over Innistrad = Shadow over Innsmouth and the Demon art connections are very weak indeed.
The name reference is not very particular, the term "shadow over" to associate some kind of lurking danger is much older than Lovecrafts works. If you goolge "shadow over" you will find numerable fantasies using this term within the first few pages, none of them actually having much to do with Lavecraft.
The demon art isn't telling much either. First off, it's the Duel Decks art, which has always been different to the one printed in the following set, so I could use your argument against it, that Wizards put it on the DD card because it was too alien for the actual Innistrad block. Anyways, I can't see the resemblance to Emrakul (or her influences), neither in art nor in mechanics.
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
I just purchased The Call of Cthulu as my first one yesterday. It should be arriving tomorrow.
Just realised: you should *definitely* have said 'as Lovecraftian as Dr. Zoidberg' here That's all. Sorry to interrupt. Everyone carry on.
Er... OT comment to make amends: Um... Ooh! What if the Shadow over Innistrad is* Marit Lage?!
(*It isn't.)
It is highly unlikely, but not 100% impossible. Besides tentacled eldritch abominations two blocks in a row would be bad storytelling.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Chandra and Ajani had friends who needed help. Lili doesn't do friends very well. (Just ask Jace.)
The only two plot threads Liliana is part of right now are her remaining demons, and the return of the Onakke. The former no longer has any connection to Innistrad, now that Griselbrand is dead, and the latter never did.
Expecting Liliana to show up in Shadows is like if you expected Sarkhan to show up in BfZ just because he was in the last Zendikar block.
Essence Harvest