ANY card in MTG history that had the words 'Counter target spell' without restrictions of any kind and left behind a creature is Rare (or possibly Mythic; haven't checked those).
Tanion, you are very clearly doing what I suggested many people are doing, and saying that this is 'Cancel with possible upside' because of the way the card is written.
Thought experiment: do you think the following card is a Rare?
New Mystic Snake
4UU
3/3
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, counter target spell.
Evoke - 1UU
Because that is 99% what this card is.
Cancel, indeed, never warped the Limited environment. Mystic Snake did. Draining Whelk did. At least enough for both of them to be Rare. (I did play in both of those Limited environments, if not very well.)
Wow didn't expect to see the day where cancel is printed as rare. For those of you saying that the other ability is useful, if you don't have better options at six mana , I pity your deck building skill.
I like this spell a lot. It's one of the more playable counter/drop a dude spells that I've seen.
What's more is I think this could be a real beast with Lumbering Falls. Yeah that's a 6/6 Hexproof Manland headed your way when it's most advantageous.
I like them both, but I love them together.
I really do think that we almost have enough decent counter spells to make an old school draw go permission deck.
A thought also occurred to me while I was pecking at my phone that Pearl Lake Ancient is worth a re look, especially in the context of landfall if not the aforementioned permission shell.
ANY card in MTG history that had the words 'Counter target spell' without restrictions of any kind and left behind a creature is Rare (or possibly Mythic; haven't checked those).
Tanion, you are very clearly doing what I suggested many people are doing, and saying that this is 'Cancel with possible upside' because of the way the card is written.
Thought experiment: do you think the following card is a Rare?
New Mystic Snake
4UU
3/3
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, counter target spell.
Evoke - 1UU
Because that is 99% what this card is.
Cancel, indeed, never warped the Limited environment. Mystic Snake did. Draining Whelk did. At least enough for both of them to be Rare. (I did play in both of those Limited environments, if not very well.)
seiloque: Then I would have to say that you don't understand the concept that certain effects belong at rare, and creature counters are one of them.
If you don't agree with that statement, that is your prerogative, but you are the one who is against quite literally the entire history of Magic to date, as has already been discussed in this thread. Again, there is no spell in Magic that is a pure hard counter that leaves behind a creature that is not at least Rare. If you don't like this fact, that is fine. But the fact is a fact, and stating that 'you'd be fine with it at Uncommon' only puts you against Magic R&D.
And sure, the card I shown can be Cloudshifted. And Scatter can be Snapcastered. They have different abilities. Different effects.
I have said nothing about the power level of this card, in Limited or Constructed. It could easily be a crap rare. It's not like 90% of all rares are crap rares. But to say that 'this should not be Rare' is just wrong without a much better case than, 'I think so.'
Also you would need 7 lands if you want to live in the christmasland of countering a spell and then using the creature to block.
You also need your opponent to be trying to cast something before blocks in a situation where a 3/3 becomes problematic for them. It's pretty hard to engineer a situation where that's likely to happen and your opponent hasn't just catastrophically misplayed, particularly in a format where this kind of thing can happen.
If it were awaken X, where X is the CMC of the countered spell, I could see it at rare. In fact, now that I've typed that out, I'm sad it's not awaken X. Awaken 3 is suitably underwhelming. I imagine this is just going to be cancel the vast majority of the time anyway. I'm going to really resent every cent i have to shell over the $1 or so I was expecting for an uncommon counterspell. I may even just run straight Cancel in protest until preorder hype dies and expedition chasing tanks the price of rares.
I like this spell a lot. It's one of the more playable counter/drop a dude spells that I've seen.
What's more is I think this could be a real beast with Lumbering Falls. Yeah that's a 6/6 Hexproof Manland headed your way when it's most advantageous.
I like them both, but I love them together.
I really do think that we almost have enough decent counter spells to make an old school draw go permission deck.
A thought also occurred to me while I was pecking at my phone that Pearl Lake Ancient is worth a re look, especially in the context of landfall if not the aforementioned permission shell.
First of all, Lumbering Falls is GU, which is not the colors of traditional draw go by a longshot (look more to UW or Esper). Secondly, Lumbering falls only has hexproof when you animate it, so awakening it with an awaken cost just removes it hexproof and your opponent says "thank you" as they Ruinous Path your man land. If you wanted to do that, you would need to keep 2UG up at all times to actually maintain the hexproof, while also needing W or B for your control effects. We're talking about a 4-5 color draw go control deck that for ideal circumstances can't win the game until there is at least 12 lands on the field. That is insanely slow and begging to get overrun by even the most tame of red decks.
seiloque: Then I would have to say that you don't understand the concept that certain effects belong at rare, and creature counters are one of them.
If you don't agree with that statement, that is your prerogative, but you are the one who is against quite literally the entire history of Magic to date, as has already been discussed in this thread. Again, there is no spell in Magic that is a pure hard counter that leaves behind a creature that is not at least Rare. If you don't like this fact, that is fine. But the fact is a fact, and stating that 'you'd be fine with it at Uncommon' only puts you against Magic R&D.
And sure, the card I shown can be Cloudshifted. And Scatter can be Snapcastered. They have different abilities. Different effects.
I have said nothing about the power level of this card, in Limited or Constructed. It could easily be a crap rare. It's not like 90% of all rares are crap rares. But to say that 'this should not be Rare' is just wrong without a much better case than, 'I think so.'
effects change the rarity of where they're printed all the time.
things that are always rare or mythic are only stuff too complex or effects too big.
You'll never see Obliterate or Cruel Ultimatum at common because they're just too big spells for that.
but flash creatures have been common, counterspells have been common, if a card with both hasn't been printed at lower rarities, it's probably just a coincidence, not some crazy rule forum theorycrafters just "discovered"
seiloque: Then I would have to say that you don't understand the concept that certain effects belong at rare, and creature counters are one of them.
If you don't agree with that statement, that is your prerogative, but you are the one who is against quite literally the entire history of Magic to date, as has already been discussed in this thread. Again, there is no spell in Magic that is a pure hard counter that leaves behind a creature that is not at least Rare. If you don't like this fact, that is fine. But the fact is a fact, and stating that 'you'd be fine with it at Uncommon' only puts you against Magic R&D.
And sure, the card I shown can be Cloudshifted. And Scatter can be Snapcastered. They have different abilities. Different effects.
I have said nothing about the power level of this card, in Limited or Constructed. It could easily be a crap rare. It's not like 90% of all rares are crap rares. But to say that 'this should not be Rare' is just wrong without a much better case than, 'I think so.'
Thank you, mucho....
I honestly don't think most of you understand this card. Its just a control focused counter-spell in an environment with tons of different counter-spells. You probably won't need 4 of these for your UX standard deck. I doubt any deck goes over 3 because of the shear number of "strictly different" counter-spells in the coming standard.
The card is a great design. Its simple, powerful, and rewards intelligent deck building and risk assessment. I'm sure there will be games in standard where you have 6 mana and its incorrect to awaken a land. There will be other games where you cast any other spell you have, along with this countering your other spell to get a 3/3 at end of your opponents turn in order to swing in for the kill. Its a fun card that gives you lots of options.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
seiloque: Then I would have to say that you don't understand the concept that certain effects belong at rare, and creature counters are one of them.
If you don't agree with that statement, that is your prerogative, but you are the one who is against quite literally the entire history of Magic to date, as has already been discussed in this thread. Again, there is no spell in Magic that is a pure hard counter that leaves behind a creature that is not at least Rare. If you don't like this fact, that is fine. But the fact is a fact, and stating that 'you'd be fine with it at Uncommon' only puts you against Magic R&D.
And sure, the card I shown can be Cloudshifted. And Scatter can be Snapcastered. They have different abilities. Different effects.
I have said nothing about the power level of this card, in Limited or Constructed. It could easily be a crap rare. It's not like 90% of all rares are crap rares. But to say that 'this should not be Rare' is just wrong without a much better case than, 'I think so.'
Thank you, mucho....
I honestly don't think most of you understand this card. Its just a control focused counter-spell in an environment with tons of different counter-spells. You probably won't need 4 of these for your UX standard deck. I doubt any deck goes over 3 because of the shear number of "strictly different" counter-spells in the coming standard.
The card is a great design. Its simple, powerful, and rewards intelligent deck building and risk assessment. I'm sure there will be games in standard where you have 6 mana and its incorrect to awaken a land. There will be other games where you cast any other spell you have, along with this countering your other spell to get a 3/3 at end of your opponents turn in order to swing in for the kill. Its a fun card that gives you lots of options.
This is the almost certainly the staple counterspell for the Standard format. They keep trying to find a way to make the staple effects for a format at rare as opposed to common or uncommon and it's really getting old.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
seiloque: Then I would have to say that you don't understand the concept that certain effects belong at rare, and creature counters are one of them.
If you don't agree with that statement, that is your prerogative, but you are the one who is against quite literally the entire history of Magic to date, as has already been discussed in this thread. Again, there is no spell in Magic that is a pure hard counter that leaves behind a creature that is not at least Rare. If you don't like this fact, that is fine. But the fact is a fact, and stating that 'you'd be fine with it at Uncommon' only puts you against Magic R&D.
And sure, the card I shown can be Cloudshifted. And Scatter can be Snapcastered. They have different abilities. Different effects.
I have said nothing about the power level of this card, in Limited or Constructed. It could easily be a crap rare. It's not like 90% of all rares are crap rares. But to say that 'this should not be Rare' is just wrong without a much better case than, 'I think so.'
Ulamog's Nullifier says hi, and is arguably better than the awakened land you get from scatter.
Ah. You're right there's no way I could ever put together a UWg or BUg shell that's draw go.
Again I do see your point that if I cast this spell countering whatever my opponent just tapped out for, on their turn, animating lumbering falls forcibly by spell, on their turn, that they might ruinous path it after passing to me and I pass back. There's also just no way that I could have 7-8 mana in a control shell at the point this is relevant play, or that I could use it to hold up Hexproof. Jeez I'm sorry I posted, thanks for pointing everything out to me.
Also I'm sure I wouldn't be running any sweepers or relevant point removal side or main for red Aggro, because what control shell would worry about that?
ANY card in MTG history that had the words 'Counter target spell' without restrictions of any kind and left behind a creature is Rare (or possibly Mythic; haven't checked those).
You're putting enough qualifiers on that statement to make it pretty meaningless- theres lots of creatures that counter spells, theres creatures and spells that counter spells conditionally and leave behind a creature that aren't rare, ex spellstutter sprite, geist snatch. But even in your narrow definition, of the five (?) cards that fit the description at all, voidmage apprentice was a common.
And I remember the numerous times I burned and bolted other fairies in the table to laugh in the face of Spellstutters... Or the fact that you need 7 mana for Voidmage (Not that said feature makes it a bad card, I play 3 on a morph mono blue deck)
Ah. You're right there's no way I could ever put together a UWg or BUg shell that's draw go.
Again I do see your point that if I cast this spell countering whatever my opponent just tapped out for, on their turn, animating lumbering falls forcibly by spell, on their turn, that they might ruinous path it after passing to me and I pass back. There's also just no way that I could have 7-8 mana in a control shell at the point this is relevant play, or that I could use it to hold up Hexproof. Jeez I'm sorry I posted, thanks for pointing everything out to me.
Also I'm sure I wouldn't be running any sweepers or relevant point removal side or main for red Aggro, because what control shell would worry about that?
You're an awesome person. Thanks for helping me.
Your sarcasm is appreciated, but misses the point of not just 7-8 mana, but 10-12 LANDS being needed to make awaken function properly. For this to work in any reasonable amount of time, most of the game you will be needing to tap out for land fetch via green spells, leaving little open for answers, of which all but this counterspell that have awaken on it are sorcery speed. This is nowhere near a draw go control, it's tap out control at best. So for this awaken deck to work you need:
-Heavy Investment in green land fetch
-Sacrificing of instant speed to go almost entirely sorcery
-The ability to survive long enough to get to 10-12 lands
-The ability to protect your land base once they become vanilla creatures so they can win you the game on their average clock of around 6-8 turns.
You are talking about a deck that wants the game to go to turn 15 probably, and expect to win. That is hyper slow by any formats measure. It also require far more than a splash of green, as most of your early, and even a chunk of your midgame is going to resolving land fetch in an attempt to get the critical mass of lands necessary to not completely screw yourself over by playing your overcosted, sorcery speed answers to get 1-2 Hill Giants to win you the game. It may work in casual or multiplayer, but as a standard constructed deck? Any agro deck is just going to rush it down with pure damage hate, especially since you have nothing else but yourself to endure all their burn. It may have a fighting chance against midrange, but more than likely they will have the recursion necessary to beat you down with value.
With Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper spoiled, it's easy to see awaken for what it is, it's lategame options for GUW midrange deck, disguised as control cards. In this shell, awaken effectively allows you to use the excess land you fetched for for more landfall triggers to make more dudes to try and beat down the opponent with, compared to the control shell, where you tap all your mana at sorcery speed most turns for a control effect and a dude, then leave nothing open on your opponent's turn to respond.
This is why an awaken deck can never be draw go, it has absolutely nothing to fit the shell, except this counterspell.
Hahah, wow, Wizards is really taking advantage of the fact that people are going to buy this set en mass anyway due to the Expedition lottery. So far I think I've seen ONE, maybe TWO rares other than the duals that I wouldn't mind getting from a pack? Jesus...
And I remember the numerous times I burned and bolted other fairies in the table to laugh in the face of Spellstutters... Or the fact that you need 7 mana for Voidmage (Not that said feature makes it a bad card, I play 3 on a morph mono blue deck)
Thought experiment: do you think the following card is a Rare?
New Mystic Snake
4UU
3/3
Flash
~ enters the battlefield tapped
When ~ enters the battlefield, sacrifice a land if it was not cast for it's evoke cost
When ~ enters the battlefield,counter target spell. If you don't sacrifice ~
Evoke - 1UU
The card has an R at the bottom, so guessing it should be Rare, not Mythic.
Still, though, I think my earlier question holds: for those who think that this doesn't deserve to be Rare, do you think Draining Whelk should have been Rare?
Draining Whelk is usually going to be a lot bigger than a 3/3. If it was just a solid 3/3 for 6, I'd say no
My face when you counter a Kozilek with your Draining Whelk and laugh meniacally because you now have a 13/13 with with flying for 6. Second favorite thing to do is steal an Ulamog with a Crab. This cancel is okay, it isn't horrible. It will do work in limited I think, not really anything to write home about in EDH. A land that's become a creature is more of a liability than an asset in commander. Still, optional utility is always nice. See, I'm evil and am thinking about the horrible things I can do with Awoken, Herald of Leshrac, and a sac outlet in black/blue stax in EDH
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ANY card in MTG history that had the words 'Counter target spell' without restrictions of any kind and left behind a creature is Rare (or possibly Mythic; haven't checked those).
Tanion, you are very clearly doing what I suggested many people are doing, and saying that this is 'Cancel with possible upside' because of the way the card is written.
Thought experiment: do you think the following card is a Rare?
New Mystic Snake
4UU
3/3
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, counter target spell.
Evoke - 1UU
Because that is 99% what this card is.
Cancel, indeed, never warped the Limited environment. Mystic Snake did. Draining Whelk did. At least enough for both of them to be Rare. (I did play in both of those Limited environments, if not very well.)
This card is not Cancel.
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
What's more is I think this could be a real beast with Lumbering Falls. Yeah that's a 6/6 Hexproof Manland headed your way when it's most advantageous.
I like them both, but I love them together.
I really do think that we almost have enough decent counter spells to make an old school draw go permission deck.
A thought also occurred to me while I was pecking at my phone that Pearl Lake Ancient is worth a re look, especially in the context of landfall if not the aforementioned permission shell.
add a "tap to add mana" in the card
and a clause "if you've not evoked it, sacrifice a land"
and you'll be closer.
also, this card can be Cloudshifted or Momentary Blinked or stuff like that.
at the end of the day, the card you proposed is a lot better than what we're getting.
and I'd still be fine with it at uncommon.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
I mean, you don't say the same thing to people who play Abzan Charm because they could always choose the counters option, do you?
If you don't agree with that statement, that is your prerogative, but you are the one who is against quite literally the entire history of Magic to date, as has already been discussed in this thread. Again, there is no spell in Magic that is a pure hard counter that leaves behind a creature that is not at least Rare. If you don't like this fact, that is fine. But the fact is a fact, and stating that 'you'd be fine with it at Uncommon' only puts you against Magic R&D.
And sure, the card I shown can be Cloudshifted. And Scatter can be Snapcastered. They have different abilities. Different effects.
I have said nothing about the power level of this card, in Limited or Constructed. It could easily be a crap rare. It's not like 90% of all rares are crap rares. But to say that 'this should not be Rare' is just wrong without a much better case than, 'I think so.'
You also need your opponent to be trying to cast something before blocks in a situation where a 3/3 becomes problematic for them. It's pretty hard to engineer a situation where that's likely to happen and your opponent hasn't just catastrophically misplayed, particularly in a format where this kind of thing can happen.
If it were awaken X, where X is the CMC of the countered spell, I could see it at rare. In fact, now that I've typed that out, I'm sad it's not awaken X. Awaken 3 is suitably underwhelming. I imagine this is just going to be cancel the vast majority of the time anyway. I'm going to really resent every cent i have to shell over the $1 or so I was expecting for an uncommon counterspell. I may even just run straight Cancel in protest until preorder hype dies and expedition chasing tanks the price of rares.
First of all, Lumbering Falls is GU, which is not the colors of traditional draw go by a longshot (look more to UW or Esper). Secondly, Lumbering falls only has hexproof when you animate it, so awakening it with an awaken cost just removes it hexproof and your opponent says "thank you" as they Ruinous Path your man land. If you wanted to do that, you would need to keep 2UG up at all times to actually maintain the hexproof, while also needing W or B for your control effects. We're talking about a 4-5 color draw go control deck that for ideal circumstances can't win the game until there is at least 12 lands on the field. That is insanely slow and begging to get overrun by even the most tame of red decks.
effects change the rarity of where they're printed all the time.
things that are always rare or mythic are only stuff too complex or effects too big.
You'll never see Obliterate or Cruel Ultimatum at common because they're just too big spells for that.
but flash creatures have been common, counterspells have been common, if a card with both hasn't been printed at lower rarities, it's probably just a coincidence, not some crazy rule forum theorycrafters just "discovered"
Thank you, mucho....
I honestly don't think most of you understand this card. Its just a control focused counter-spell in an environment with tons of different counter-spells. You probably won't need 4 of these for your UX standard deck. I doubt any deck goes over 3 because of the shear number of "strictly different" counter-spells in the coming standard.
The card is a great design. Its simple, powerful, and rewards intelligent deck building and risk assessment. I'm sure there will be games in standard where you have 6 mana and its incorrect to awaken a land. There will be other games where you cast any other spell you have, along with this countering your other spell to get a 3/3 at end of your opponents turn in order to swing in for the kill. Its a fun card that gives you lots of options.
- Manite
This is the almost certainly the staple counterspell for the Standard format. They keep trying to find a way to make the staple effects for a format at rare as opposed to common or uncommon and it's really getting old.
Ulamog's Nullifier says hi, and is arguably better than the awakened land you get from scatter.
Also, 2 different colors.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
Again I do see your point that if I cast this spell countering whatever my opponent just tapped out for, on their turn, animating lumbering falls forcibly by spell, on their turn, that they might ruinous path it after passing to me and I pass back. There's also just no way that I could have 7-8 mana in a control shell at the point this is relevant play, or that I could use it to hold up Hexproof. Jeez I'm sorry I posted, thanks for pointing everything out to me.
Also I'm sure I wouldn't be running any sweepers or relevant point removal side or main for red Aggro, because what control shell would worry about that?
You're an awesome person. Thanks for helping me.
You're putting enough qualifiers on that statement to make it pretty meaningless- theres lots of creatures that counter spells, theres creatures and spells that counter spells conditionally and leave behind a creature that aren't rare, ex spellstutter sprite, geist snatch. But even in your narrow definition, of the five (?) cards that fit the description at all, voidmage apprentice was a common.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
Your sarcasm is appreciated, but misses the point of not just 7-8 mana, but 10-12 LANDS being needed to make awaken function properly. For this to work in any reasonable amount of time, most of the game you will be needing to tap out for land fetch via green spells, leaving little open for answers, of which all but this counterspell that have awaken on it are sorcery speed. This is nowhere near a draw go control, it's tap out control at best. So for this awaken deck to work you need:
-Heavy Investment in green land fetch
-Sacrificing of instant speed to go almost entirely sorcery
-The ability to survive long enough to get to 10-12 lands
-The ability to protect your land base once they become vanilla creatures so they can win you the game on their average clock of around 6-8 turns.
You are talking about a deck that wants the game to go to turn 15 probably, and expect to win. That is hyper slow by any formats measure. It also require far more than a splash of green, as most of your early, and even a chunk of your midgame is going to resolving land fetch in an attempt to get the critical mass of lands necessary to not completely screw yourself over by playing your overcosted, sorcery speed answers to get 1-2 Hill Giants to win you the game. It may work in casual or multiplayer, but as a standard constructed deck? Any agro deck is just going to rush it down with pure damage hate, especially since you have nothing else but yourself to endure all their burn. It may have a fighting chance against midrange, but more than likely they will have the recursion necessary to beat you down with value.
With Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper spoiled, it's easy to see awaken for what it is, it's lategame options for GUW midrange deck, disguised as control cards. In this shell, awaken effectively allows you to use the excess land you fetched for for more landfall triggers to make more dudes to try and beat down the opponent with, compared to the control shell, where you tap all your mana at sorcery speed most turns for a control effect and a dude, then leave nothing open on your opponent's turn to respond.
This is why an awaken deck can never be draw go, it has absolutely nothing to fit the shell, except this counterspell.
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Those goalposts sure can move!
Fix'd
Uncommon
Common
In fact the best creature counter of all time Spellstutter Sprite was common.
My face when you counter a Kozilek with your Draining Whelk and laugh meniacally because you now have a 13/13 with with flying for 6. Second favorite thing to do is steal an Ulamog with a Crab. This cancel is okay, it isn't horrible. It will do work in limited I think, not really anything to write home about in EDH. A land that's become a creature is more of a liability than an asset in commander. Still, optional utility is always nice. See, I'm evil and am thinking about the horrible things I can do with Awoken, Herald of Leshrac, and a sac outlet in black/blue stax in EDH