This is absolutely begging to be used with Karn, Liberated. Not sure how that will hold up in modern or if the deck has room, but I'm gonna wager it's not a bad place to start.
Good enough in standard? Let's see, there's Ugin and Ulamog. Yea, it's probably good enough and going to see play in a new archetype.
When would this be useful outside of colorless EDH? This feels like it couldn't possibly be any more winmore.
Because no one's ever lost after resolving an Ugin. (Hero's downfall is leaving the format though so I'd put good money on Ugin becoming a lot more dominant since it's really hard to deal with something that sweeps every threat to it off the board when it drops.)
Yes, that is precisely why this card is "winmore."
Well, it's going to be a fun limited format! Might see constructed play as a miser in some kind of mono coloured or mostly mono splashing a second colour control deck to grab a hangarback walker when you cast ugin or ulamog.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
This card seems pretty rad. Being an actual land has its advantages over Eye of Ugin, though the Eye is still more powerful in abstract. Really too bad you can't sacrifice this when you cast Conduit of Ruin, but you will be able to use it when you can't whatever the Conduit searched.
As a R/G Tron player, this card got worse the more i thought about it. The huge issue is that it takes a land drop away. The last thing I ever want to do is kill one of my land drops as hitting 7 mana on three, and then 8 mana including colored mana on 4 is almost required to win against twin or faster decks.
If it didn't have the sacrifice requirement this would be an intriguing option. Blowing up your land relegates this to the garbage pile.
When would this be useful outside of colorless EDH? This feels like it couldn't possibly be any more winmore. And you have to sac the land to get a creature, setting your manabase back a turn. First they power down the Eldrazi Temple, then they give us this instead of Eye of Ugin?
yeah.... and the downgrades season goes on.
bad eldrazi temple? check....
bad Eye of Ugin? check.... badVinelasher Kudzu? check... badSteppe Lynx? check... badBloodghast? Ok... I'm stretching it and Despoiler of Souls is a closer call, but... check. badPlated Geopede? Also stretching and this may not be even that bad... still, check.
The temple of the forsaken gods is actually way better than what Eldrazi temple was anyway because eldrazi used to be expensive and helping casting Ugin and artifacts is relevant. Comparing it to what Eldrazi temple could have been here is not accurate as the format has à lot more colorless/eldrazi options. That land will be cool.
Undergrowth Champion is a better card than Vinelasher Kudzu.
Scythe Leopard is clearly not as good as Steppe Lynx, but steppe lynx was too good, especially in limited. That is not a bad card though. A consistent 3/3 for 1 will definetely see play in standard.
There seem to be lots of rare lands in this set... That will be weird in limited. I don't particularily like this design, even if you can chain Hangarback Walkers I think it is too narrow and eldrazis have enough lands like this.
but that's not the real issue...
Kudzu is an aggressive card, it's power rivals Tarmogoyf in a dedicated landfall deck, I have a modern and a legacy landfall decks and in both of them Kudzu easily overperforms Goyf... I've even won 2 FNMs with the modern aggro landfall version in days that had more than 30 players with pretty decent decks.
The main issue with him is that he can be chumpblocked all day....
what happens when you chumpblock Undergrowth Champion? yeah... you guessed it... IT SHRINKS!
the damage prevention and counter removal is actually a drawback a lot of time.
It makes the card survive Lightning Bolt but doesn't do anything against other commonly used removal and makes it a better chump blocker (as if you'd want to chumpblock with your potential win condition), but it doesn't help much it's aggro side...
you still can't go into "bad attack mode" as if your opponent has a bigger dude, he'll just block, and Champion shrinks...
Kudzu will attack into a good trade or if it will be chumped.
Champion will attack if your opponent has no good block to make at all.
Kudzu is by far the better card because the upside of champion that makes him cost that extra mana is not really that up.
When would this be useful outside of colorless EDH? This feels like it couldn't possibly be any more winmore. And you have to sac the land to get a creature, setting your manabase back a turn. First they power down the Eldrazi Temple, then they give us this instead of Eye of Ugin?
yeah.... and the downgrades season goes on.
bad eldrazi temple? check....
bad Eye of Ugin? check.... badVinelasher Kudzu? check... badSteppe Lynx? check... badBloodghast? Ok... I'm stretching it and Despoiler of Souls is a closer call, but... check. badPlated Geopede? Also stretching and this may not be even that bad... still, check.
The temple of the forsaken gods is actually way better than what Eldrazi temple was anyway because eldrazi used to be expensive and helping casting Ugin and artifacts is relevant. Comparing it to what Eldrazi temple could have been here is not accurate as the format has à lot more colorless/eldrazi options. That land will be cool.
Undergrowth Champion is a better card than Vinelasher Kudzu.
Scythe Leopard is clearly not as good as Steppe Lynx, but steppe lynx was too good, especially in limited. That is not a bad card though. A consistent 3/3 for 1 will definetely see play in standard.
There seem to be lots of rare lands in this set... That will be weird in limited. I don't particularily like this design, even if you can chain Hangarback Walkers I think it is too narrow and eldrazis have enough lands like this.
but that's not the real issue...
Kudzu is an aggressive card, it's power rivals Tarmogoyf in a dedicated landfall deck, I have a modern and a legacy landfall decks and in both of them Kudzu easily overperforms Goyf... I've even won 2 FNMs with the modern aggro landfall version in days that had more than 30 players with pretty decent decks.
The main issue with him is that he can be chumpblocked all day....
what happens when you chumpblock Undergrowth Champion? yeah... you guessed it... IT SHRINKS!
the damage prevention and counter removal is actually a drawback a lot of time.
It makes the card survive Lightning Bolt but doesn't do anything against other commonly used removal and makes it a better chump blocker (as if you'd want to chumpblock with your potential win condition), but it doesn't help much it's aggro side...
you still can't go into "bad attack mode" as if your opponent has a bigger dude, he'll just block, and Champion shrinks...
Kudzu will attack into a good trade or if it will be chumped.
Champion will attack if your opponent has no good block to make at all.
Kudzu is by far the better card because the upside of champion that makes him cost that extra mana is not really that up.
Kudzu is worse(not strictly) than Champion. That's a fact.
I wonder why 7... considering Shrine of the Forsaken Gods is also 7. Coincidence? Or is there some kind of meaning to 7 in this context. Ugin's ultimate is 7's because Bolas's is, so that's probably a coincidence.
The only odd/bad thing about this land is that it fetches a creature. Fetching a colorless card of any type would have been perfect.
I wonder why 7... considering Shrine of the Forsaken Gods is also 7. Coincidence? Or is there some kind of meaning to 7 in this context. Ugin's ultimate is 7's because Bolas's is, so that's probably a coincidence.
The only odd/bad thing about this land is that it fetches a creature. Fetching a colorless card of any type would have been perfect.
Gain an Extra Turn
Draw 4 cards
Exile permanents
Reanimate
Etc...
Eldrazies all the way
When would this be useful outside of colorless EDH? This feels like it couldn't possibly be any more winmore. And you have to sac the land to get a creature, setting your manabase back a turn. First they power down the Eldrazi Temple, then they give us this instead of Eye of Ugin?
yeah.... and the downgrades season goes on.
bad eldrazi temple? check....
bad Eye of Ugin? check.... badVinelasher Kudzu? check... badSteppe Lynx? check... badBloodghast? Ok... I'm stretching it and Despoiler of Souls is a closer call, but... check. badPlated Geopede? Also stretching and this may not be even that bad... still, check.
The temple of the forsaken gods is actually way better than what Eldrazi temple was anyway because eldrazi used to be expensive and helping casting Ugin and artifacts is relevant. Comparing it to what Eldrazi temple could have been here is not accurate as the format has à lot more colorless/eldrazi options. That land will be cool.
Undergrowth Champion is a better card than Vinelasher Kudzu.
Scythe Leopard is clearly not as good as Steppe Lynx, but steppe lynx was too good, especially in limited. That is not a bad card though. A consistent 3/3 for 1 will definetely see play in standard.
There seem to be lots of rare lands in this set... That will be weird in limited. I don't particularily like this design, even if you can chain Hangarback Walkers I think it is too narrow and eldrazis have enough lands like this.
but that's not the real issue...
Kudzu is an aggressive card, it's power rivals Tarmogoyf in a dedicated landfall deck, I have a modern and a legacy landfall decks and in both of them Kudzu easily overperforms Goyf... I've even won 2 FNMs with the modern aggro landfall version in days that had more than 30 players with pretty decent decks.
The main issue with him is that he can be chumpblocked all day....
what happens when you chumpblock Undergrowth Champion? yeah... you guessed it... IT SHRINKS!
the damage prevention and counter removal is actually a drawback a lot of time.
It makes the card survive Lightning Bolt but doesn't do anything against other commonly used removal and makes it a better chump blocker (as if you'd want to chumpblock with your potential win condition), but it doesn't help much it's aggro side...
you still can't go into "bad attack mode" as if your opponent has a bigger dude, he'll just block, and Champion shrinks...
Kudzu will attack into a good trade or if it will be chumped.
Champion will attack if your opponent has no good block to make at all.
Kudzu is by far the better card because the upside of champion that makes him cost that extra mana is not really that up.
Kudzu is worse(not strictly) than Champion. That's a fact.
damn, you convinced me...
very powerful argumentation, congrats.
I like it when people say that cards are unplayable without even playing with them. If you wanna have fun with people who think they know everything for sure, look at this treat about Treasure Cruise when it was first spoiled . Some of the comments are hilarious, my favorite: " people are really bad at judging delve cards... this card is unplayable outside of standard maybe. its so bad in multiples. comparing it to visions or recall is laughable. especially with snapcaster existing in other formats"
People judge cards by what they usually play and mostly do not account that you have to change your deck to fully power a card.
Especially cards that work with fetchlands and lots of free/cheap spells tend to be really broken, but not so outside of these abusive decks.
Play Treasure Cruise in Limited without filling your graveyard with enablers, its pretty bad, but it still does the job in the late-game to draw you cards (and gets a tremendous boost with enablers that quickly dump cards in your yard) ; and its totally true that the card doesnt work particular well with too much delve cards ; thats also why you are limited to a set amount of delve cards a deck can support (in Modern thats usually 4).
So nothing the people said is completly wrong, its just heavily influenced by what they assume to be important and what they assume decks to look like.
Its not wrong to say the card is bad with Snapcaster , but that sure as hell doesnt make it unplayable at all.
Monastery Mentor on the other side never took really off in standard, but its a real hit in vintage.
Lots of examples in which it totally switches between views , exchanging this opinions is after all part of the fun in spoiler season ; some cards get put in existing decks, others require decks to adapt to them.
Either way, tutoring for a big colorless creature after casting Ugin is still relevant.
Well I do love the flavour of the card, good for commander.
(^ Is not serious)
I feel like it's kinda disingenuous to call a card that played a central role in an actual deck "weak" necessarily.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Ruinous Path is a lot more restrictive than Downfall though, so there will certainly be fewer floating around.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Still rather decent in Commander
Good enough in standard? Let's see, there's Ugin and Ulamog. Yea, it's probably good enough and going to see play in a new archetype.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Yes, that is precisely why this card is "winmore."
(Getting that backup Ugin could be nice though!)
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
If it didn't have the sacrifice requirement this would be an intriguing option. Blowing up your land relegates this to the garbage pile.
Undergrowth Champion is nowhere near the power of Vinelasher Kudzu and for a multitude of reasons.
first of all, it's 1G vs 1GG...
at 1GG Tarmogoyf would be a bad Terravore
but that's not the real issue...
Kudzu is an aggressive card, it's power rivals Tarmogoyf in a dedicated landfall deck, I have a modern and a legacy landfall decks and in both of them Kudzu easily overperforms Goyf... I've even won 2 FNMs with the modern aggro landfall version in days that had more than 30 players with pretty decent decks.
The main issue with him is that he can be chumpblocked all day....
what happens when you chumpblock Undergrowth Champion? yeah... you guessed it... IT SHRINKS!
the damage prevention and counter removal is actually a drawback a lot of time.
It makes the card survive Lightning Bolt but doesn't do anything against other commonly used removal and makes it a better chump blocker (as if you'd want to chumpblock with your potential win condition), but it doesn't help much it's aggro side...
you still can't go into "bad attack mode" as if your opponent has a bigger dude, he'll just block, and Champion shrinks...
Kudzu will attack into a good trade or if it will be chumped.
Champion will attack if your opponent has no good block to make at all.
Kudzu is by far the better card because the upside of champion that makes him cost that extra mana is not really that up.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
The only odd/bad thing about this land is that it fetches a creature. Fetching a colorless card of any type would have been perfect.
Gain an Extra Turn
Draw 4 cards
Exile permanents
Reanimate
Etc...
Eldrazies all the way
And I'm now forever going to think of this card as "Ugin's Honey Trap" whenever I see it...
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damn, you convinced me...
very powerful argumentation, congrats.
People judge cards by what they usually play and mostly do not account that you have to change your deck to fully power a card.
Especially cards that work with fetchlands and lots of free/cheap spells tend to be really broken, but not so outside of these abusive decks.
Play Treasure Cruise in Limited without filling your graveyard with enablers, its pretty bad, but it still does the job in the late-game to draw you cards (and gets a tremendous boost with enablers that quickly dump cards in your yard) ; and its totally true that the card doesnt work particular well with too much delve cards ; thats also why you are limited to a set amount of delve cards a deck can support (in Modern thats usually 4).
So nothing the people said is completly wrong, its just heavily influenced by what they assume to be important and what they assume decks to look like.
Its not wrong to say the card is bad with Snapcaster , but that sure as hell doesnt make it unplayable at all.
Monastery Mentor on the other side never took really off in standard, but its a real hit in vintage.
Lots of examples in which it totally switches between views , exchanging this opinions is after all part of the fun in spoiler season ; some cards get put in existing decks, others require decks to adapt to them.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮