Exactly. But 5 mana wraths without significant additional upside are not overpowered, so being able to cast your playable but not exciting card shouldn't be a power-level issue.
It could be 4W in lots of formats. A format with fetchable duals? You need to be extremely careful with mana costs to avoid every deck splashing a W/X dual for a wrath. A wrath they might not have access to otherwise.
Actually, that is a really good point that I hadn't considered. The fetch/tango (I'm calling them tangos now, but only because I literally just realized how stupid fetch/base manabases sounds) manabases really requires stricter costs. Thanks for pointing that out!
Awaken really seems like an overcosted ability. It should at least untap the land as well.
I KNOW! I just don't get it. What's the point of giving the land haste if it's usually just going to be tapped to pay the Awaken cost?
Besides, you could just target a land that's already been in play for more than a turn.
The haste is there to prevent "rules-lawyering". I can imagine without the haste, there will be competitive people out there in the Pre-release paying attention to every land you've dropped and immediately start invalidating your attack since he can specifically prove your land came down on this turn somehow. Since the Judges cannot be possibly be paying attention to every table (let alone land drop), they can't possibly judge that effectively in such a case.
Yes, careful playing can reduce the problems, but from what we've seen so far, Awaken feels quite Limited/Casual, I can imagine this popping up at a lot of Pre-releases. There are players out there who deem every game as Competitive REL regardless and plenty of newer players in Pre-releases.
Yes, it's one of those "simplified for beginners" abilities, but I can see the rationale behind it and I'd take the chance to not having to memorize everyone's land drops for the sake of that haste during a game.
That being said, I'm also wondering how often I will have an extra land for the awaken and haste to be relevant together though, considering the awaken costs we have so far. The tapped land can't even block like Phyrexian Rebirth at least can.
Agreed. It still should untap the land though. I asked Maro earlier today and he gave this response.
jtgap asked: Why doesn't awaken untap the awakened land in addition to giving it haste? The haste just seems like it won't do much a lot of the time since you need an extra mana to make it work and the awaken costs seem costed as though they untapped the land.
They were costed for the land to not untap.
Even in Limited, this format will have to be even slower than expected if Maro is expecting the haste to actually allow awakened lands to attack immediately with haste a lot of the time.
This is the second set in a row with a 5CMC conditional sweeper. My understanding was that current design philosophy was to have 5CMC wraths with upside and cheaper conditional wraths. I don't see any reason Tragic Arrogance or Planar Outburst couldn't cost 2WW. It says to me they view outburst on a par with End Hostilities which, in turn, says to me they view awaken as flavour text. Only the durdliest of decks is ever going to awaken a land with this. With the state of white removal, I'm not sure anyone will ever awaken a land with this.
I was hopeful that awaken would provide some utility and inevitability for control decks at the cost of being sorcery speed. So far, it seems what we've got is nerfed versions of control cards with laughable alternate costs.
This is the second set in a row with a 5CMC conditional sweeper. My understanding was that current design philosophy was to have 5CMC wraths with upside and cheaper conditional wraths. I don't see any reason Tragic Arrogance or Planar Outburst couldn't cost 2WW. It says to me they view outburst on a par with End Hostilities which, in turn, says to me they view awaken as flavour text. Only the durdliest of decks is ever going to awaken a land with this. With the state of white removal, I'm not sure anyone will ever awaken a land with this.
I was hopeful that awaken would provide some utility and inevitability for control decks at the cost of being sorcery speed. So far, it seems what we've got is nerfed versions of control cards with laughable alternate costs.
While I agree that the Awaken on this is overcosted, Tragic Arrogance being 5 mana is fine because it has massive upside in a lot of matchups where you can cast it, keep your Siege Rhino, and leave your opponent with an Elvish Mystic, Soldier of the Pantheon, or Monastery Swiftspear.
While I agree that the Awaken on this is overcosted, Tragic Arrogance being 5 mana is fine because it has massive upside in a lot of matchups where you can cast it, keep your Siege Rhino, and leave your opponent with an Elvish Mystic, Soldier of the Pantheon, or Monastery Swiftspear.
I just realized how Tragic Arrogance is good against Awaken (I didn't think of it until you mentioned the card). Just choose the Awakened Land as the creature option since it's going to survive regardless and wipe out all other actual creatures.
I don't get why people are crying over one more mana on a wrath. You don't need to lay sweepers on curve. You cast them when you have to and not as soon as possible. If you need to cast this turn 4 because you can't deal with a pair of 1 and/or 2 drops then it's not because of the extra mana but because your deck is horrible.
I could understand the outcry if it costed 7 mana, but on 5 it's perfectly fine and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this sees standard play.
On the other hand, I kind of hope this card will become a bin rare, because I want to get one for cheap for the art alone.
I know many have lamented the loss of the 4cc unconditional Wrath but now I see the benefits it is bringing.
It opens up a lot of design space. This and languish can potentially be one sided (and even be more powerful) than the 4cc wrath.
I fugured as much. The Awaken cost considers the land being untapped. If the land is to be untapped then the Awaken Cost will simply be 1 more. The current design is much better because you can cast it 1 turn earlier or the next turn with a hasty land. This 1 mana subtle options fixes your curve a lot.
EDIT: A ramp/awaken deck could be a possible archtype. Hoping for a Primal Growth with Awaken.
While I agree that the Awaken on this is overcosted, Tragic Arrogance being 5 mana is fine because it has massive upside in a lot of matchups where you can cast it, keep your Siege Rhino, and leave your opponent with an Elvish Mystic, Soldier of the Pantheon, or Monastery Swiftspear.
4-Mana Tragic Arrogance versus 5-mana Tragic Arrogance doesn't make a huge difference if you're casting it after Siege Rhino. The only decks you're going to get better than two for one out of Arrogance on turn 4 are the go wide decks that white based control can't handle. It also has the significant downside of being uncastable more often than most wraths. I think it would be fine at four. Regardless, I'm happy to cede the point because my main point is a self-interested 'give us better control cards' tantrum.
I enjoy everything WotC are rebalancing about standard.
I'll enjoy being on the draw and not having to fear a turn 1 Elvish Mystic, knowing my hand is way too slow to ever deal with that
I'll enjoy a variety of sweepers being in the format rather than all control decks just jamming 4 Wraths, making deckbuilding and decision trees in-game more complex and rewarding
I'll enjoy 2 mana removal that doesn't get rid of 80%+ of creatures, meaning WotC can make a bigger variety of playable creatures that don't have insane value as soon as they resolve (Snapcaster Mage, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells, Kitchen Finks)
Essentially, WoTC is making Standard like limited. What this does is increase the variance in the game, which in turn, makes things more random. There should always be universal answers, but you don't want 12+ of them, which is something they can do to have some sort of balance. When there are no universal answers, then the best thing you can do, like limited, is play creatures. That sounds like such a rewarding and fun format....There's a reason why Modern is beginning to eclipse Standard in popularity.
Losing games because you drew Ultimate Price against Hangarback, or Wild Slash against Mantis Rider, or Valorous Stance against Deathmist is just BAD game design. The format should always have 1-2 universal efficient removal (Terminate, Path, Dreadbore, etc.), and then you can augment with more situational stuff.
The haste is there to prevent "rules-lawyering". I can imagine without the haste, there will be competitive people out there in the Pre-release paying attention to every land you've dropped and immediately start invalidating your attack since he can specifically prove your land came down on this turn somehow. Since the Judges cannot be possibly be paying attention to every table (let alone land drop), they can't possibly judge that effectively in such a case.
Eh, I figured that was the case.
The thing I don't like is that you feel bad when you tap out to animate a tapped land, and you feel bad when you wait an extra turn just so you can animate an untapped land.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I enjoy everything WotC are rebalancing about standard.
I'll enjoy being on the draw and not having to fear a turn 1 Elvish Mystic, knowing my hand is way too slow to ever deal with that
I'll enjoy a variety of sweepers being in the format rather than all control decks just jamming 4 Wraths, making deckbuilding and decision trees in-game more complex and rewarding
I'll enjoy 2 mana removal that doesn't get rid of 80%+ of creatures, meaning WotC can make a bigger variety of playable creatures that don't have insane value as soon as they resolve (Snapcaster Mage, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells, Kitchen Finks)
Essentially, WoTC is making Standard like limited. What this does is increase the variance in the game, which in turn, makes things more random. There should always be universal answers, but you don't want 12+ of them, which is something they can do to have some sort of balance. When there are no universal answers, then the best thing you can do, like limited, is play creatures. That sounds like such a rewarding and fun format....There's a reason why Modern is beginning to eclipse Standard in popularity.
Losing games because you drew Ultimate Price against Hangarback, or Wild Slash against Mantis Rider, or Valorous Stance against Deathmist is just BAD game design. The format should always have 1-2 universal efficient removal (Terminate, Path, Dreadbore, etc.), and then you can augment with more situational stuff.
I enjoy everything WotC are rebalancing about standard.
I'll enjoy being on the draw and not having to fear a turn 1 Elvish Mystic, knowing my hand is way too slow to ever deal with that
I'll enjoy a variety of sweepers being in the format rather than all control decks just jamming 4 Wraths, making deckbuilding and decision trees in-game more complex and rewarding
I'll enjoy 2 mana removal that doesn't get rid of 80%+ of creatures, meaning WotC can make a bigger variety of playable creatures that don't have insane value as soon as they resolve (Snapcaster Mage, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells, Kitchen Finks)
Essentially, WoTC is making Standard like limited. What this does is increase the variance in the game, which in turn, makes things more random. There should always be universal answers, but you don't want 12+ of them, which is something they can do to have some sort of balance. When there are no universal answers, then the best thing you can do, like limited, is play creatures. That sounds like such a rewarding and fun format....There's a reason why Modern is beginning to eclipse Standard in popularity.
Losing games because you drew Ultimate Price against Hangarback, or Wild Slash against Mantis Rider, or Valorous Stance against Deathmist is just BAD game design. The format should always have 1-2 universal efficient removal (Terminate, Path, Dreadbore, etc.), and then you can augment with more situational stuff.
Downfall is rotating, and I wouldn't call 3 mana sorcery speed spot removal as efficient. Look, point and click removal is almost universally a 1 for 1. You certainly don't want 10 variations of path, terminate, and swords in a standard format, but you also don't want zero. Given that creatures can actually win the game, and removal cannot, it's a bit silly to have formats where the removal is so situational/expensive, that you'd much rather run a bunch of PW's and creatures. That's essentially what WoTC has created with standard now-a-days. It's boring.
As far as the poster who called standard deck-building interesting and meta-gamey...come on, really? You're almost universally better off playing Rhino, Walker, and Den Protector, and or, going so far over the top by making a bajillion mana and P/T with stuff like GR devotion. Let's stop pretending that standard is interesting or diverse. It's just a mash of CA/Efficient creatures and 'going-over-the-top' cards like Elspeth. Or, if everyone is being lazy one week you play 28 red creature + 14 burn spell.dec. Bleh standard.
So people would rather have a standard with one or two unbeatable decks than what we have. Interesting. The 28 creature + 14 burn spell deck loses on the draw. What's the point of having almost 1,000 cards to play with in standard to only bring it down to >10% being playable? 60% or more of sets are for limited and the other 40% or less should be for potential deck ideas (Demonic Pact, etc). Abzan is the deck Modern-oriented people play, but it isn't unbeatable either. We will see where standard will be in a couple of weeks.
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"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
The "good" thing about awaken is that you "can" play a controll deck without any real finisher, as all your answers provide a finisher themself !
If you run a fair deal of forests Nissa could provide the massive ramp, together with the land tokens to win the game fairly quickly after that point.
I just wonder if we will get "instant" speed awaken aswell, like a counterspell ! (would be like a mystic snake)
If we get decent cards that just have an additional awaken ability, it could provide the cards for a deck full of answers, that also work as finishers.
I wonder if the core set having all new walkers will lead to reprinted ones in other sets. If so I'm hoping for a Nissa worldwaker reprint. That card was great and perfect for the way this block is shaping up. And I'm not sure how it could be made better without being busted... although with awaken around it would probably be busted as is
I feel a lot of people are making valid points for and against this card, but what many are potentially failing to do is think of an environment outside of current standard. When Theros rotates out, we are mostly a Tarkir block and some decks will go away, others will change a bit, and some will make it pretty untouched. Additionally, as with every rotation, a new deck type or two will form. When Dragons came out, we all the sudden had a mill deck. When BFZ becomes standard, there is a good possibility we see new deck types.
Simply put, what worked before may not work anymore. So there is a chance this sort of card shines. If Wizards expects people to cast eldrazi spells, then mana acceleration is likely to be decent. They have to know that there is no point in having 10 cost cards like Ulamog if games are often over by the time we get to even 6 lands in play. That means cards like this have a decent shot at being cast both for 5 and for 8. Anybody worried about an Armageddon against your awakened lands has to also think that they won't be awakening all their lands. Only a fool would do that. You awaken 1 or 2 lands that you could live without. If those lands go to pound town on your opponent great. If they get blown up, your opponent used removal on lands when you are already flush with lands. You should be able to survive that type of land loss.
I'm a player who favors control, so I may be bias in being hopeful this does well in standard. I've already brewed a backbone of a deck that this fits perfectly in. I hope the rest of it comes together.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
If you can get it to be a one sided wrath, that'd be awesome!
Individually I prefer End Hostilities, or Duneblast for the respective cost modes, but this has the potential to be better than either though in a man land deck, and more versatile.
I will say that I'm pretty apprehensive of an awaken deck... Losing your creatures and your manabase will suck.
If you can get it to be a one sided wrath, that'd be awesome!
Individually I prefer End Hostilities, or Duneblast for the respective cost modes, but this has the potential to be better than either though in a man land deck, and more versatile.
I will say that I'm pretty apprehensive of an awaken deck... Losing your creatures and your manabase will suck.
Don't forget Tragic Arrogance. This standard is going to hate agro quite a bit, with 6 different wrath effects in 3 different colors (End Hostilities, Tragic Arrogance, Crux of Fate, Languish, The Great Aurora, and now Planar Outburst). It feels like we are setting up for an incredibly slow meta.
As for the card itself, this will live or die by how much awaken flourishes. If everybody has man lands everywhere, then this is too risky to play over End Hostilities. Arrogance also misses man lands, but hits things besides creatures and busts indestructible with it's sacrifice wording. It will be interesting to see which of the two is favored.
If you can get it to be a one sided wrath, that'd be awesome!
Individually I prefer End Hostilities, or Duneblast for the respective cost modes, but this has the potential to be better than either though in a man land deck, and more versatile.
I will say that I'm pretty apprehensive of an awaken deck... Losing your creatures and your manabase will suck.
Don't forget Tragic Arrogance. This standard is going to hate agro quite a bit, with 6 different wrath effects in 3 different colors (End Hostilities, Tragic Arrogance, Crux of Fate, Languish, The Great Aurora, and now Planar Outburst). It feels like we are setting up for an incredibly slow meta.
As for the card itself, this will live or die by how much awaken flourishes. If everybody has man lands everywhere, then this is too risky to play over End Hostilities. Arrogance also misses man lands, but hits things besides creatures and busts indestructible with it's sacrifice wording. It will be interesting to see which of the two is favored.
Wraths have never hated on aggro decks - they've always been too slow, especially now at 5 mana. Wraths have been a very good card against Mid-range decks, but now you can build your mid-range decks to make these essentially plague-wind a lot of the time, which is...kinda stupid, but OK, sure.
Actually, that is a really good point that I hadn't considered. The fetch/tango (I'm calling them tangos now, but only because I literally just realized how stupid fetch/base manabases sounds) manabases really requires stricter costs. Thanks for pointing that out!
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Agreed. It still should untap the land though. I asked Maro earlier today and he gave this response.
Even in Limited, this format will have to be even slower than expected if Maro is expecting the haste to actually allow awakened lands to attack immediately with haste a lot of the time.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
...Aw, who am I kidding? If Titania was part white, I'd have to play Armageddon, and nobody wants that.
I was hopeful that awaken would provide some utility and inevitability for control decks at the cost of being sorcery speed. So far, it seems what we've got is nerfed versions of control cards with laughable alternate costs.
While I agree that the Awaken on this is overcosted, Tragic Arrogance being 5 mana is fine because it has massive upside in a lot of matchups where you can cast it, keep your Siege Rhino, and leave your opponent with an Elvish Mystic, Soldier of the Pantheon, or Monastery Swiftspear.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I just realized how Tragic Arrogance is good against Awaken (I didn't think of it until you mentioned the card). Just choose the Awakened Land as the creature option since it's going to survive regardless and wipe out all other actual creatures.
I could understand the outcry if it costed 7 mana, but on 5 it's perfectly fine and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this sees standard play.
On the other hand, I kind of hope this card will become a bin rare, because I want to get one for cheap for the art alone.
It opens up a lot of design space. This and languish can potentially be one sided (and even be more powerful) than the 4cc wrath.
I fugured as much. The Awaken cost considers the land being untapped. If the land is to be untapped then the Awaken Cost will simply be 1 more. The current design is much better because you can cast it 1 turn earlier or the next turn with a hasty land. This 1 mana subtle options fixes your curve a lot.
EDIT: A ramp/awaken deck could be a possible archtype. Hoping for a Primal Growth with Awaken.
4-Mana Tragic Arrogance versus 5-mana Tragic Arrogance doesn't make a huge difference if you're casting it after Siege Rhino. The only decks you're going to get better than two for one out of Arrogance on turn 4 are the go wide decks that white based control can't handle. It also has the significant downside of being uncastable more often than most wraths. I think it would be fine at four. Regardless, I'm happy to cede the point because my main point is a self-interested 'give us better control cards' tantrum.
Essentially, WoTC is making Standard like limited. What this does is increase the variance in the game, which in turn, makes things more random. There should always be universal answers, but you don't want 12+ of them, which is something they can do to have some sort of balance. When there are no universal answers, then the best thing you can do, like limited, is play creatures. That sounds like such a rewarding and fun format....There's a reason why Modern is beginning to eclipse Standard in popularity.
Losing games because you drew Ultimate Price against Hangarback, or Wild Slash against Mantis Rider, or Valorous Stance against Deathmist is just BAD game design. The format should always have 1-2 universal efficient removal (Terminate, Path, Dreadbore, etc.), and then you can augment with more situational stuff.
Eh, I figured that was the case.
The thing I don't like is that you feel bad when you tap out to animate a tapped land, and you feel bad when you wait an extra turn just so you can animate an untapped land.
um Ruinous Path + Hero's Downfall seems like universal efficient removal
Downfall is rotating, and I wouldn't call 3 mana sorcery speed spot removal as efficient. Look, point and click removal is almost universally a 1 for 1. You certainly don't want 10 variations of path, terminate, and swords in a standard format, but you also don't want zero. Given that creatures can actually win the game, and removal cannot, it's a bit silly to have formats where the removal is so situational/expensive, that you'd much rather run a bunch of PW's and creatures. That's essentially what WoTC has created with standard now-a-days. It's boring.
As far as the poster who called standard deck-building interesting and meta-gamey...come on, really? You're almost universally better off playing Rhino, Walker, and Den Protector, and or, going so far over the top by making a bajillion mana and P/T with stuff like GR devotion. Let's stop pretending that standard is interesting or diverse. It's just a mash of CA/Efficient creatures and 'going-over-the-top' cards like Elspeth. Or, if everyone is being lazy one week you play 28 red creature + 14 burn spell.dec. Bleh standard.
If you run a fair deal of forests Nissa could provide the massive ramp, together with the land tokens to win the game fairly quickly after that point.
I just wonder if we will get "instant" speed awaken aswell, like a counterspell ! (would be like a mystic snake)
If we get decent cards that just have an additional awaken ability, it could provide the cards for a deck full of answers, that also work as finishers.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Simply put, what worked before may not work anymore. So there is a chance this sort of card shines. If Wizards expects people to cast eldrazi spells, then mana acceleration is likely to be decent. They have to know that there is no point in having 10 cost cards like Ulamog if games are often over by the time we get to even 6 lands in play. That means cards like this have a decent shot at being cast both for 5 and for 8. Anybody worried about an Armageddon against your awakened lands has to also think that they won't be awakening all their lands. Only a fool would do that. You awaken 1 or 2 lands that you could live without. If those lands go to pound town on your opponent great. If they get blown up, your opponent used removal on lands when you are already flush with lands. You should be able to survive that type of land loss.
I'm a player who favors control, so I may be bias in being hopeful this does well in standard. I've already brewed a backbone of a deck that this fits perfectly in. I hope the rest of it comes together.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Uncommon at best. Trash card
Individually I prefer End Hostilities, or Duneblast for the respective cost modes, but this has the potential to be better than either though in a man land deck, and more versatile.
I will say that I'm pretty apprehensive of an awaken deck... Losing your creatures and your manabase will suck.
Don't forget Tragic Arrogance. This standard is going to hate agro quite a bit, with 6 different wrath effects in 3 different colors (End Hostilities, Tragic Arrogance, Crux of Fate, Languish, The Great Aurora, and now Planar Outburst). It feels like we are setting up for an incredibly slow meta.
As for the card itself, this will live or die by how much awaken flourishes. If everybody has man lands everywhere, then this is too risky to play over End Hostilities. Arrogance also misses man lands, but hits things besides creatures and busts indestructible with it's sacrifice wording. It will be interesting to see which of the two is favored.
Wraths have never hated on aggro decks - they've always been too slow, especially now at 5 mana. Wraths have been a very good card against Mid-range decks, but now you can build your mid-range decks to make these essentially plague-wind a lot of the time, which is...kinda stupid, but OK, sure.