You can drop a fetch land turn 4 after casting this, which means the red player can't do much. This situation is a bit too "uncommon" for my tastes, but it does need to be pointed out.
But for that, you need to play it as a drop 4, and the 4th land needs to be a fetch. If you play it on curve as a drop 3, you give opening for burns.
You can drop a fetch land turn 4 after casting this, which means the red player can't do much. This situation is a bit too "uncommon" for my tastes, but it does need to be pointed out.
But for that, you need to play it as a drop 4, and the 4th land needs to be a fetch. If you play it on curve as a drop 3, you give opening for burns.
You RARELY play landfall cards on the curve. Like Steppe Lynx is the exception cause it was a hardcore aggro card. However, landfall is typically played a turn later cause it offers either more protection or more options while non landfall cards offer better options for being played on the curve. This makes it so your deck has low cost creatures overall, but still have options for later with mana open.
EDIT: Great example is omnath himself. He's terrible to play on curve with 7 mana. You get a 5/5 that you can't protect and only bolts them for removing him. BUT playing him on turn 8 allows you to have two 5/5s that bolt when you try to remove either one. That's a lot more value.
Complexity wise, it is definitely a mythic. While understanding what is does is simple, complexity also counts how it plays out on the board. This guy is really complicated considering it goes both up and down in counters by itself.
The best part is you actually, honestly believe that using a card from 2002 proves something
Oh come on though, you don't think this is "mythic level complexity" (as if that's even a thing!) do you? And anyway, phantom nomad does prove something, that the ability (which was never controversial before) isn't too complicated. NWO says the phantom ability probably wouldn't be on a common today; it says nothing about whether that ability is only appropriate on mythics.
And people need to stop pretending that regular old rares are as plentiful or limited-warping as uncommons. If anything is "too complex" or "too powerful in limited" to be uncommon, you push it to rare. There is no amount of complexity, or limited-bombiness, that would alone justify moving a rare to mythic. A hypothetical card that complex just shouldn't be printed in the first place, if it's really a problem.
There are plenty of reasons why this might be a mythic - wotc needed to feel a slot and this seemed the most mythic of what they had left; it had originally been more powerful or exciting but got nerfed in development but still had to sit at mythic; wotc overestimated its powerlevel and/or appeal to players; or many players are currently underestimating it and it is going to turn out to be a power card and cash cow for the set. Let's stop pretending that "too complicated" or "too good for limited" are among these reasons.
No I don't think this card is that complex
I do think it can be deceptively so however, it isn't super simple either
You RARELY play landfall cards on the curve. Like Steppe Lynx is the exception cause it was a hardcore aggro card. However, landfall is typically played a turn later cause it offers either more protection or more options while non landfall cards offer better options for being played on the curve. This makes it so your deck has low cost creatures overall, but still have options for later with mana open.
EDIT: Great example is omnath himself. He's terrible to play on curve with 7 mana. You get a 5/5 that you can't protect and only bolts them for removing him. BUT playing him on turn 8 allows you to have two 5/5s that bolt when you try to remove either one. That's a lot more value.
Exactly that is the problem. This guy is supposed to be good early, but you can't play it early with safety.
A huge vanilla beater is good to pressure early, when it can overwhelm the opponent tiny creatures and force them to chump or take much damage early. But later a big dumb beater is not that good. If you don't land him early to pressure your opponent and let your opponent build a board, the opponent can keep it under control, because the olny thing he does is attack and block.
The only way i see this guy as passable is T3 him > T4 fetch hit 4, T5 fetch hit 6, but even that needs setup and an empty field.
People are thinking about him on ramp decks, but on ramp decks you already have many bad topdecks card (the ramps themselves) so you want the rest of your deck to be good topdecks or take adavantage of all the mana you already have on the fild (wich is irrelevant for this guy). Also ramp decks want to ramp before playing things, not playing things before ramping.
The only way i see this being decent is with Hardened Scales deck, but in those decks Managorger Hydra is better, because being immune to damage is not that relevant when your creature is huge. A huge trampler is far better than a huge immortal vanilla.
You RARELY play landfall cards on the curve. Like Steppe Lynx is the exception cause it was a hardcore aggro card. However, landfall is typically played a turn later cause it offers either more protection or more options while non landfall cards offer better options for being played on the curve. This makes it so your deck has low cost creatures overall, but still have options for later with mana open.
EDIT: Great example is omnath himself. He's terrible to play on curve with 7 mana. You get a 5/5 that you can't protect and only bolts them for removing him. BUT playing him on turn 8 allows you to have two 5/5s that bolt when you try to remove either one. That's a lot more value.
Exactly that is the problem. This guy is supposed to be good early, but you can't play it early with safety.
A huge vanilla beater is good to pressure early, when it can overwhelm the opponent tiny creatures and force them to chump or take much damage early. But later a big dumb beater is not that good. If you don't land him early to pressure your opponent and let your opponent build a board, the opponent can keep it under control, because the olny thing he does is attack and block.
The only way i see this guy as passable is T3 him > T4 fetch hit 4, T5 fetch hit 6, but even that needs setup and an empty field.
People are thinking about him on ramp decks, but on ramp decks you already have many bad topdecks card (the ramps themselves) so you want the rest of your deck to be good topdecks or take adavantage of all the mana you already have on the fild (wich is irrelevant for this guy). Also ramp decks want to ramp before playing things, not playing things before ramping.
The only way i see this being decent is with Hardened Scales deck, but in those decks Managorger Hydra is better, because being immune to damage is not that relevant when your creature is huge. A huge trampler is far better than a huge immortal vanilla.
I think this is looking at it with too narrow of a vision. This guy only needs to be played safely once. You had 3 previous turns before playing him, you must have done something to pressure your opponent. Now a creature is getting bigger without any real effort and you can keep pressuring them. However, I will say this is awful against Abzan mainly due to Languish.
I think this is looking at it with too narrow of a vision. This guy only needs to be played safely once. You had 3 previous turns before playing him, you must have done something to pressure your opponent. Now a creature is getting bigger without any real effort and you can keep pressuring them. However, I will say this is awful against Abzan mainly due to Languish.
While it get bigger, i woudln't say "with any real effort". You need a build around or a setup and specific cards (fetchlands) to make it worth. Playing it on turn 3 to have it 6/6 at turn 6 (considering that you didn't miss land drops and it didn't shrink by being blocked/blocking) is not good. It's also bad to topdeck it when you have 6+ lands, because you will need to draw more lands (and flood) to make it relevant. And even if it's big, it will start shring when you start attacking and you won't be able to keep it big unless you flood with fetches.
I think this is looking at it with too narrow of a vision. This guy only needs to be played safely once. You had 3 previous turns before playing him, you must have done something to pressure your opponent. Now a creature is getting bigger without any real effort and you can keep pressuring them. However, I will say this is awful against Abzan mainly due to Languish.
While it get bigger, i woudln't say "with any real effort". You need a build around or a setup and specific cards (fetchlands) to make it worth. Playing it on turn 3 to have it 6/6 at turn 6 (considering that you didn't miss land drops and it didn't shrink by being blocked/blocking) is not good. It's also bad to topdeck it when you have 6+ lands, because you will need to draw more lands (and flood) to make it relevant. And even if it's big, it will start shring when you start attacking and you won't be able to keep it big unless you flood with fetches.
Playing something on turn 3/4(for 3) that turns into AT LEAST 6/6 on turn 6(with no investment other than dropping lands) is not bad. This is standard, not modern. Also, if you are flooded and top decking, you can hold back the lands on purpose so that this guy has the chance to stall. Otherwise, top decking this card is just a weakness, which several other cards have even in tier 1 decks. The shrinking caused by being blocked is unfortunate, but if they are actively blocking it(and the damage is being done), either you messed up, or they are sacrificing board presence.
EDIT: Like I said before, he belongs in a certain deck, not he belongs in every deck under the Sun.
Playing something on turn 3/4(for 3) that turns into AT LEAST 6/6 on turn 6(with no investment other than dropping lands) is not bad.
A 6/6 on turn 6 withtou any type of utlity or evasion is bad. we had 6/6 for 5 and it didn't see much play (and it could kill fliers and become 9/9), yes it was triple green, but it was not hard to acheive considering that we had turn 1 and turn 2 acceleration that could tap for green. If there is something that recent history tell us is that just being big is not good enough (unless you are a cmc 2 3/4 or 4/5 in most of the time), can you tell me who was the last non-evasive, non-utility, big dumb beater that did see a decent play on standard?
Playing something on turn 3/4(for 3) that turns into AT LEAST 6/6 on turn 6(with no investment other than dropping lands) is not bad.
A 6/6 on turn 6 withtou any type of utlity or evasion is bad. we had 6/6 for 5 and it didn't see much play (and it could kill fliers and become 9/9), yes it was triple green, but it was not hard to acheive considering that we had turn 1 and turn 2 acceleration that could tap for green. If there is something that recent history tell us is that just being big is not good enough (unless you are a cmc 2 3/4 or 4/5 in most of the time), can you tell me who was the last non-evasive, non-utility, big dumb beater that did see a decent play on standard?
Uh... except that 6/6 for 5 COSTS 5 not 3. You can't compare a 5 drop to a 3 drop especially in such different standards. Mana acceleration on turn 1/2 to drop a 5 drop on turn 3 for Arbor Colossus could be spent doing ANYTHING ELSE with this card. It's not a 5 drop, it's a 3 drop that either A) grows, B) stalls, or C) dies to hard removal.
Also, that question is a little vague. Even this isn't just a big dumb beater, it's a beater that can't easily be killed by burn or blocking bigger creatures. I think the best example is Loxodon Smiter. Loxodon Smiter was as big dumb beater that made sure the opponent at least let you cast him, but was also a 4/4 for CMC3. He lived in a time where the only way he was getting evasion was through Selesnya Charm. If you want me to pull up something more recent, I'll go back and try to find something, but it's not impossible for a CMC 3 big dumb beater to be relevant in standard.
Also, that question is a little vague. Even this isn't just a big dumb beater, it's a beater that can't easily be killed by burn or blocking bigger creatures. I think the best example is Loxodon Smiter. Loxodon Smiter was as big dumb beater that made sure the opponent at least let you cast him, but was also a 4/4 for CMC3. He lived in a time where the only way he was getting evasion was through Selesnya Charm. If you want me to pull up something more recent, I'll go back and try to find something, but it's not impossible for a CMC 3 big dumb beater to be relevant in standard.
You forgot to mention that loxodon couldn't be countered and was a strong player against liliana, he fell much in flavor when Innistrad rotated out. Being strong against counter and discard seems a utility to me. Not dying to damage isn't that utility when it's attched to big bodies because you know, generally big bodies doesn't die easily to damage anyway.
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You RARELY play landfall cards on the curve. Like Steppe Lynx is the exception cause it was a hardcore aggro card. However, landfall is typically played a turn later cause it offers either more protection or more options while non landfall cards offer better options for being played on the curve. This makes it so your deck has low cost creatures overall, but still have options for later with mana open.
EDIT: Great example is omnath himself. He's terrible to play on curve with 7 mana. You get a 5/5 that you can't protect and only bolts them for removing him. BUT playing him on turn 8 allows you to have two 5/5s that bolt when you try to remove either one. That's a lot more value.
No I don't think this card is that complex
I do think it can be deceptively so however, it isn't super simple either
A huge vanilla beater is good to pressure early, when it can overwhelm the opponent tiny creatures and force them to chump or take much damage early. But later a big dumb beater is not that good. If you don't land him early to pressure your opponent and let your opponent build a board, the opponent can keep it under control, because the olny thing he does is attack and block.
The only way i see this guy as passable is T3 him > T4 fetch hit 4, T5 fetch hit 6, but even that needs setup and an empty field.
People are thinking about him on ramp decks, but on ramp decks you already have many bad topdecks card (the ramps themselves) so you want the rest of your deck to be good topdecks or take adavantage of all the mana you already have on the fild (wich is irrelevant for this guy). Also ramp decks want to ramp before playing things, not playing things before ramping.
The only way i see this being decent is with Hardened Scales deck, but in those decks Managorger Hydra is better, because being immune to damage is not that relevant when your creature is huge. A huge trampler is far better than a huge immortal vanilla.
I think this is looking at it with too narrow of a vision. This guy only needs to be played safely once. You had 3 previous turns before playing him, you must have done something to pressure your opponent. Now a creature is getting bigger without any real effort and you can keep pressuring them. However, I will say this is awful against Abzan mainly due to Languish.
Playing something on turn 3/4(for 3) that turns into AT LEAST 6/6 on turn 6(with no investment other than dropping lands) is not bad. This is standard, not modern. Also, if you are flooded and top decking, you can hold back the lands on purpose so that this guy has the chance to stall. Otherwise, top decking this card is just a weakness, which several other cards have even in tier 1 decks. The shrinking caused by being blocked is unfortunate, but if they are actively blocking it(and the damage is being done), either you messed up, or they are sacrificing board presence.
EDIT: Like I said before, he belongs in a certain deck, not he belongs in every deck under the Sun.
Uh... except that 6/6 for 5 COSTS 5 not 3. You can't compare a 5 drop to a 3 drop especially in such different standards. Mana acceleration on turn 1/2 to drop a 5 drop on turn 3 for Arbor Colossus could be spent doing ANYTHING ELSE with this card. It's not a 5 drop, it's a 3 drop that either A) grows, B) stalls, or C) dies to hard removal.
Also, that question is a little vague. Even this isn't just a big dumb beater, it's a beater that can't easily be killed by burn or blocking bigger creatures. I think the best example is Loxodon Smiter. Loxodon Smiter was as big dumb beater that made sure the opponent at least let you cast him, but was also a 4/4 for CMC3. He lived in a time where the only way he was getting evasion was through Selesnya Charm. If you want me to pull up something more recent, I'll go back and try to find something, but it's not impossible for a CMC 3 big dumb beater to be relevant in standard.
You forgot to mention that loxodon couldn't be countered and was a strong player against liliana, he fell much in flavor when Innistrad rotated out. Being strong against counter and discard seems a utility to me. Not dying to damage isn't that utility when it's attched to big bodies because you know, generally big bodies doesn't die easily to damage anyway.