If I had the mentality of your average 60 card competitive player, I'd be bashing this as a waste of a PW slot because it's pretty mediocre in multiplayer EDH. But I don't, so I'm gonna point out how ******* cool this dude is. Our first 1 mana walker certainly exceeds expectations.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Oh man this is super.... meh. Other than the indestructibility, Gideon Jura just does it better, and there are very few times where I want to play Jura.
No, using my example I'd be left with a Swiftspear and a Berserker, which quite frankly is a good place to be at Turn 2. Kytheon/Gideon is not meant to be the lynch pin of ANY deck he would be run in, merely a solid support card that can help close out games quickly, or provide decks more reach that they otherwise would not have. Only one planeswalker in the history of Magic has been able to win the game on his own, and that was Jace, the Mind Sculptor. You can use the "Dies to Removal" argument til the cows come home, but an efficient 1 mana 2/1 creature with so many upsides once flipped makes it's inclusion worth it. And casting on curve isn't too difficult especially running 8-12 white mana sources (as previously stated, I suspect the RW fetchland will be released in Origins as well, or in BFZ).
No, you dashed the Berserker. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to try to flip to Gideon on turn 2. In this situation, you played a card in a way that is weaker than Raging Goblin, since it returned to your hand, and you didn't get your payoff. That's problematic for aggro. It's fine to claim that Kytheon isn't a lynchpin card, but in the example given, a poor line has been taken to try to get a flip, and if it's stopped, that leaves the aggro deck in a weaker state than if Kytheon had been another of aggro's 1-drops. Keep in mind, several 2/1s for 1 with upside exist in Standard currently, and they aren't seeing any play.
Edit: The RW fetch won't support this play. We need either Battlefield Forge or Mana Confluence. It's possible, but four of each still doesn't guarantee that the colors will be there. And that's a lot of potential pain to take.
Sorry, I kinda misconstrued what you were saying. I thought you were saying that my Lightning Berserker would have been Bile Blighted as well (which makes no sense, obviously, but I personally have been wrong about a card does before, to err is to be human, so I thought you may have done the same). However, I still disagree on Kytheon being Bile Blighted as putting an aggro deck in a weakened state. I can't tell you how many times I've had my Foundry Street Denizen killed on Turn 2 before he could do his business. Or Zurgo. Or any other 1 drop in Standard that does something that's worth a damn. Toughness doesn't really matter to the aggro player, only Power, so any other case you could make for an aggressive 1 drop with 2 Power is moot.
As far as your opinion on the RW Fetch not "supporting this play," I honestly don't understand what you mean. If it's released, great! If not, the deck can still work without it (albeit, a little less efficiently). Honestly, I'd just add a few more plains if this is the case. Or Wind-Scarred Crag (which, consequently would maybe change the deck to an Aggro/Midrange deck, believe it or not, such a thing exists). And about the pain... Aggro, especially aggro that runs A LOT of red, don't care 'bout no pain! We run Eidolon of the Great Revel after all!!!
"Strike first. Strike hard. No mercy Sir!!!"
We're talking past one another, let me try to make my point more clear. I realize that 1-drops die all the time. I realize that toughness is of secondary concern to an aggro player.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Currently, an aggro player plays a good 1-drop, then on turn 2 ideally has a 2-drop to play or two powerful 1-drops. The only real haste 1-drop in Standard is Monastery Swiftspear. If we can play two of those on turn 2, great, but the odds of that are low. Lightning Berserker can sub in, but dashing it without any mana for the firebreathing effect is a poor use of a turn. If that manages to flip Kytheon, then yay, you're justified. If not, then your play was weak.
If your opening plays were turn 1 Zurgo followed up with turn 2 Eidolon and I Bile Blight your Zurgo in response to the Eidolon, you're still in a fine state. I've traded one-for-one with one of your creatures. You've made use of your mana effectively so far, and have applied pressure in a reasonable fashion for an aggro deck.
If your opening plays were turn 1 Kytheon into turn 2 Swiftspear and dashed Lightning Berserker and I kill Kytheon pre-combat, your board state is a lone Swiftspear when the dust settles. This was not as good an opening series of plays as in the other example, because you've made a sub-optimal play in order to attempt to flip your Planeswalker. Unlike other good 1-drops in Aggro, Kytheon can ask a bit more of you.
So, realistically, he doesn't flip on turn 2. More likely turn 3 or later, if ever. And if he never flips, he was basically another 2/1 for 1, which is pretty marginal in the current Standard.
I thought my point about the lands was pretty clear. Arid Mesa on turn 1 in a format without fetchable dual lands won't let you have W on turn 1 and RR on turn 2. It would be good in this hypothetical RW aggro deck, without a doubt, but it doesn't enable Kytheon flipping on turn 2.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Oh man this is super.... meh. Other than the indestructibility, Gideon Jura just does it better, and there are very few times where I want to play Jura.
For Standard Gideon Jura always has been incredible and would be as soon as it would be legal in Standard.
This new Gideon costs 1 and can do a comparable job. To me it's pretty much like comparing Tasigur, the Golden Fang to Grave Titan both Black, both amazing for Standard but filling in vastly different roles.
Yup, don't disagree, I was just referring to EDH, because that's all I play.
Yeah either Gideon doesn't seem extremely appealing to (multiplayer) EDH. I think Kytheon will be wrecking tiny leader however this is a slight different thake on EDH altogether.
So far no real EDH staples have been spoiled in Origins. As far as Im aware of. I hope those will come soon!
Displacement Wave seems like a pretty useful spell in multiplayer EDH, I don't know about staple.
Yeah either Gideon doesn't seem extremely appealing to (multiplayer) EDH. I think Kytheon will be wrecking tiny leader however this is a slight different thake on EDH altogether.
So far no real EDH staples have been spoiled in Origins. As far as Im aware of. I hope those will come soon!
Lol, no apology necessary bud, I should have specified!
No, using my example I'd be left with a Swiftspear and a Berserker, which quite frankly is a good place to be at Turn 2. Kytheon/Gideon is not meant to be the lynch pin of ANY deck he would be run in, merely a solid support card that can help close out games quickly, or provide decks more reach that they otherwise would not have. Only one planeswalker in the history of Magic has been able to win the game on his own, and that was Jace, the Mind Sculptor. You can use the "Dies to Removal" argument til the cows come home, but an efficient 1 mana 2/1 creature with so many upsides once flipped makes it's inclusion worth it. And casting on curve isn't too difficult especially running 8-12 white mana sources (as previously stated, I suspect the RW fetchland will be released in Origins as well, or in BFZ).
No, you dashed the Berserker. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to try to flip to Gideon on turn 2. In this situation, you played a card in a way that is weaker than Raging Goblin, since it returned to your hand, and you didn't get your payoff. That's problematic for aggro. It's fine to claim that Kytheon isn't a lynchpin card, but in the example given, a poor line has been taken to try to get a flip, and if it's stopped, that leaves the aggro deck in a weaker state than if Kytheon had been another of aggro's 1-drops. Keep in mind, several 2/1s for 1 with upside exist in Standard currently, and they aren't seeing any play.
Edit: The RW fetch won't support this play. We need either Battlefield Forge or Mana Confluence. It's possible, but four of each still doesn't guarantee that the colors will be there. And that's a lot of potential pain to take.
Sorry, I kinda misconstrued what you were saying. I thought you were saying that my Lightning Berserker would have been Bile Blighted as well (which makes no sense, obviously, but I personally have been wrong about a card does before, to err is to be human, so I thought you may have done the same). However, I still disagree on Kytheon being Bile Blighted as putting an aggro deck in a weakened state. I can't tell you how many times I've had my Foundry Street Denizen killed on Turn 2 before he could do his business. Or Zurgo. Or any other 1 drop in Standard that does something that's worth a damn. Toughness doesn't really matter to the aggro player, only Power, so any other case you could make for an aggressive 1 drop with 2 Power is moot.
As far as your opinion on the RW Fetch not "supporting this play," I honestly don't understand what you mean. If it's released, great! If not, the deck can still work without it (albeit, a little less efficiently). Honestly, I'd just add a few more plains if this is the case. Or Wind-Scarred Crag (which, consequently would maybe change the deck to an Aggro/Midrange deck, believe it or not, such a thing exists). And about the pain... Aggro, especially aggro that runs A LOT of red, don't care 'bout no pain! We run Eidolon of the Great Revel after all!!!
"Strike first. Strike hard. No mercy Sir!!!"
We're talking past one another, let me try to make my point more clear. I realize that 1-drops die all the time. I realize that toughness is of secondary concern to an aggro player.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Currently, an aggro player plays a good 1-drop, then on turn 2 ideally has a 2-drop to play or two powerful 1-drops. The only real haste 1-drop in Standard is Monastery Swiftspear. If we can play two of those on turn 2, great, but the odds of that are low. Lightning Berserker can sub in, but dashing it without any mana for the firebreathing effect is a poor use of a turn. If that manages to flip Kytheon, then yay, you're justified. If not, then your play was weak.
If your opening plays were turn 1 Zurgo followed up with turn 2 Eidolon and I Bile Blight your Zurgo in response to the Eidolon, you're still in a fine state. I've traded one-for-one with one of your creatures. You've made use of your mana effectively so far, and have applied pressure in a reasonable fashion for an aggro deck.
If your opening plays were turn 1 Kytheon into turn 2 Swiftspear and dashed Lightning Berserker and I kill Kytheon pre-combat, your board state is a lone Swiftspear when the dust settles. This was not as good an opening series of plays as in the other example, because you've made a sub-optimal play in order to attempt to flip your Planeswalker. Unlike other good 1-drops in Aggro, Kytheon can ask a bit more of you.
So, realistically, he doesn't flip on turn 2. More likely turn 3 or later, if ever. And if he never flips, he was basically another 2/1 for 1, which is pretty marginal in the current Standard.
I thought my point about the lands was pretty clear. Arid Mesa on turn 1 in a format without fetchable dual lands won't let you have W on turn 1 and RR on turn 2. It would be good in this hypothetical RW aggro deck, without a doubt, but it doesn't enable Kytheon flipping on turn 2.
You're right, we're like two ships passing in the night. I get what you meant by "making the play." You we're speaking of the scenario I mentioned. And you're right, Arid Mesa would not allow me to flip Kytheon on Turn 2. I never meant to imply that it would. I only mentioned it because it would help the deck I posted a couple of pages back cast on curve. Currently, only Mana Confluence and Battlefield Forge would allow a Turn 2 Kytheon flip.
That being said, I still feel like attempting to flip Kytheon Turn 2 is still the stronger play. There's much more upside to flipping him then making any of the plays you mentioned previously. Look at it like this: You're trading short term incremental damage for long term potential big damage, tempo control, and slight card advantage.
We both like the card, and I personally can't wait to get my hands on a full playeset (along with Liliana)
What I meant is "sometimes I'm wrong but not this time". But I like polemics.
Well, considering what I said wasn't a verbal attack on a person and I conceded to some of his (her?) points... Polemic wouldn't be the right word for this conversation.
Well, if we get a RW Sorcery that produces a couple hasty Soldier tokens, we can flip Kytheon turn 2. But that might be a reason why we won't likely get a 2 cmc Sorcery that produces two such tokens in Origins, possibly in Standard while Kytheon's around. Instead we're more likely to get a 4 cmc Sorcery with three hasty tokens, which allows Kytheon to flip on turn 4 which would be more "on curve" judging by Gideon, Battle-Forged's stats.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
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Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
We're talking past one another, let me try to make my point more clear. I realize that 1-drops die all the time. I realize that toughness is of secondary concern to an aggro player.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Currently, an aggro player plays a good 1-drop, then on turn 2 ideally has a 2-drop to play or two powerful 1-drops. The only real haste 1-drop in Standard is Monastery Swiftspear. If we can play two of those on turn 2, great, but the odds of that are low. Lightning Berserker can sub in, but dashing it without any mana for the firebreathing effect is a poor use of a turn. If that manages to flip Kytheon, then yay, you're justified. If not, then your play was weak.
If your opening plays were turn 1 Zurgo followed up with turn 2 Eidolon and I Bile Blight your Zurgo in response to the Eidolon, you're still in a fine state. I've traded one-for-one with one of your creatures. You've made use of your mana effectively so far, and have applied pressure in a reasonable fashion for an aggro deck.
If your opening plays were turn 1 Kytheon into turn 2 Swiftspear and dashed Lightning Berserker and I kill Kytheon pre-combat, your board state is a lone Swiftspear when the dust settles. This was not as good an opening series of plays as in the other example, because you've made a sub-optimal play in order to attempt to flip your Planeswalker. Unlike other good 1-drops in Aggro, Kytheon can ask a bit more of you.
So, realistically, he doesn't flip on turn 2. More likely turn 3 or later, if ever. And if he never flips, he was basically another 2/1 for 1, which is pretty marginal in the current Standard.
I thought my point about the lands was pretty clear. Arid Mesa on turn 1 in a format without fetchable dual lands won't let you have W on turn 1 and RR on turn 2. It would be good in this hypothetical RW aggro deck, without a doubt, but it doesn't enable Kytheon flipping on turn 2.
Well the first one was Deathrite Shaman at least unofficially and that one was good enough to be banned in Modern
If you said yes, congrats, you're playing him and he's all upside from there.
Yup, don't disagree, I was just referring to EDH, because that's all I play.
Displacement Wave seems like a pretty useful spell in multiplayer EDH, I don't know about staple.
Lol, no apology necessary bud, I should have specified!
You're right, we're like two ships passing in the night. I get what you meant by "making the play." You we're speaking of the scenario I mentioned. And you're right, Arid Mesa would not allow me to flip Kytheon on Turn 2. I never meant to imply that it would. I only mentioned it because it would help the deck I posted a couple of pages back cast on curve. Currently, only Mana Confluence and Battlefield Forge would allow a Turn 2 Kytheon flip.
That being said, I still feel like attempting to flip Kytheon Turn 2 is still the stronger play. There's much more upside to flipping him then making any of the plays you mentioned previously. Look at it like this: You're trading short term incremental damage for long term potential big damage, tempo control, and slight card advantage.
We both like the card, and I personally can't wait to get my hands on a full playeset (along with Liliana)
Well, considering what I said wasn't a verbal attack on a person and I conceded to some of his (her?) points... Polemic wouldn't be the right word for this conversation.
See what I did there?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.