@Mr-Banana: Actually that version of "Gideon's Ignition" would not flip Gideon, since you didn't declare attacks with the soldiers, you just put them in attacking. It's kind of like the Windbrisk Heights/Hero of Bladehold interaction.
It will just play like any other 1 drop 2/1 , and if you flip it you immediatly go for +2 , which makes this pretty much unkillable and you get to force creatures to attack into it (which you will most likely block and kill with your goyf or anything else).
Then next turn get a 4/4 attacker that still has 5 loyality. Thats just nuts, as you get all that for 1 white mana.
Well, not really just for 1 white mana.
He has to live for a few turns, you have to spend additional mana and a card or two for more dudes, then after a suicide attack (realistically not all three are going to live so the opp will gain resources for free) you might get a walker. All of this is more than W mana.
Deathrite Shaman is still the king of one mana walkers
A deck (Boros) that wants to play a 2/1 1-drop really has no issue flipping this guy turn 2.
Plenty of haste creatures and additional burn, he wont be blocked at all.
Grim lavamancer and the usual burn package makes this pretty aggressive, and once it is flipped, you can force blockers to attack into this guy, which acts as pseudo removal against otherwise annoying blockers , even a Spellskite that "must" attack will just die against your blockers or deal a wooping 0 damage to Gideon.
Once flipped hes pretty annoying to kill and a 4/4 attacker also goes around most blockers and as hes indestructable anyway you can kill all these 5+ thoughness creatures that dare to block.
Hes not a auto-include for any white deck, but he sure is a house in any aggressive Boros deck.
It's like he was templated for Battalion but since that mechanic is not in MO then it makes sense to modify it this way. I love the flipped side too. A 4/4 indestructible with damage immunity? Sign me up.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I really wish there was a betting system on here. There's no way Jace sees the least play. He's at the very least better than Chandra, and gives Ojutai's Command new life. I agree on Liliana being the best in a vacuum, but the rest is up for debate.
I really wish there was a betting system on here. There's no way Jace sees the least play. He's at the very least better than Chandra, and gives Ojutai's Command new life. I agree on Liliana being the best in a vacuum, but the rest is up for debate.
Agreed. I'd personally say, in terms of likelihood of seeing play
I really wish there was a betting system on here. There's no way Jace sees the least play. He's at the very least better than Chandra, and gives Ojutai's Command new life. I agree on Liliana being the best in a vacuum, but the rest is up for debate.
Agreed. I'd personally say, in terms of likelihood of seeing play
I really wish there was a betting system on here. There's no way Jace sees the least play. He's at the very least better than Chandra, and gives Ojutai's Command new life. I agree on Liliana being the best in a vacuum, but the rest is up for debate.
Agreed. I'd personally say, in terms of likelihood of seeing play
I really wish there was a betting system on here. There's no way Jace sees the least play. He's at the very least better than Chandra, and gives Ojutai's Command new life. I agree on Liliana being the best in a vacuum, but the rest is up for debate.
Agreed. I'd personally say, in terms of likelihood of seeing play
I think Jace, Liliana, and Gideon are all likely to see play somewhere.
I agree with this to a tee pretty much.
Which ones do you expect to be the most popular for EDH? Not exactly the most powerful, but most popular/fun.
Gideon by a huge margin, he's a strictly better Isamaru. Nissa is interesting since green is good at tutoring/cheating creatures into play, so having a creature that turns into a PW is good, and as a general, she provides constant card advantage. Chandra and Jace are the worst in EDH by far (maybe for 1v1 French banlist with 30 life, Chandra could work with a pure burn deck). Liliana is good in the right deck or as the general.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
He's not strictly better than Isamaru. Having a second toughness is very relevant, especially in standard. Trading for half a dragon fodder is not appealing, and there will be some consideration to just trading off an elvish mystic to him, whereas you'll never consider a chump block against isamaru with a mana dork unless you're dead otherwise. These aren't exactly fringe cases either, so strictly better isn't a term that applies here at all. He's better, just not strictly better.
Kytheon is an interesting new choice for Tiny Leaders. As a small white creature he's ideal for Equipment voltron decks. With Puresteel Paladin and Leonin Shikari at his side he can easily use Equipment even in his temporary creature form. Champion's Helm is a particularly good fit. Stoneforge Mystic and Steelshaper's Gift are must-have Equipment tutors. Kytheon should also play remarkably well with Odric, Master Tactician, though obviously not in Tiny Leaders.
And I do believe this is the first creature with an "end of combat" ability that checks whether the creature attacked that combat since Kjeldoran Home Guard, though Kytheon is the first to check exclusively attacking. Funnily enough, I had designed my own card with such an ability the other day, though it was ironically a BR Legend.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
he isn't that bad because he's still a 2/1 for W that gainst indestructible. the flip thing is what makes it actually good, but 2/1 for W is pretty serviceable, so i think we can't complain.
Ill also put them in order of power. If you disagree with Nissa on top you're just very wrong. I'd also like to note that while I put Jace last it doesn't mean it is weak, Just that it takes more conditions to be good. Also, Liliana might be worse than it seems, she is the one in those 5 that the opponent can ignore for a lot of time (never remove or block the creature with few consequence, if he doesn't plan to attack), even though it is resilient to removal.
1) Nissa
2) Chandra
3) Liliana
4) Gideon
5) Jace
If my opp puts Elvish Mystic turn one or, in another case, wins a die roll and puts Fleecemance Lion turn 2, when exactly are we planning to flip Gideon?
There is no hand that transforms him in a timely manner for him to be relevant. Unless we have 2 Ornithopters...
In older formats people are playing Delver, Deathrite, Goyf, Stoneforge, turn 2 Tasigur, any amount of removal...
Perfect hand with Kytheon into Swiftspear + Guide is still bricked by a single 1/1 creature, no matter how much removal we have.
Everthing puts a halt on quick flip.
Affinity could use him just fine.
He is good but there is a reason why wizards think he can cost 1 mana.
I just dont understand the hate on these guys. they are all way smaller than normal PW's and cost less, aside from tibalt YUCK!! Anyways, Jace WILL see play, and Gideon will forsure be a staple...I just dont know what people want from PW"s. you want a
If your EDH would run a Merfolk Looter you can just as good run jace, simply to get a "better" option to hit a spell later on.
But in general hes pretty bad, as you must flip it, even if you do not have a target for his -3, which is quite annoying as thats when you want the looter most (to find more spells).
Nissa would be decent if she would actual "ramp" you, as she allready is a restricted land tutor (basic forest only) , you can even find a dual with her and even if you flip her late game, shes just "fair", not really good, but if a deck wants fillers, she serves.
Liliana is clearly good if shes reliable and easy to flip. Doesnt go in every black deck and really wants some specific decks (coupled with stuff like Sakura-Tribe elder it works fairly well).
But in any older format, old Liliana is miles better and playing both seems quite a stretch.
Chandra badly lacks haste. Shes not completly bad, but the fact that she has to stay alive 1 turn in super aggressive red decks is a stretch, especially as nearly every alternative has an impact immediatly.
Then we have Gideon, 1 mana, just good no matter what and potentially a game winning bomb if the effects matter, its just good and especially brutal in Boros decks that play a ton of 1 drops anyway, coupled with burn and haste 1 drops.
The indestructible activated ability is so expensive and might be used so rarely, that it will probably eat some spells as a surprise or to survive a late game burn spell that others would not survive.
Together with Bloodsoaked Champion it might even produce a nice white/black deck with tons of reach, just add Bloodghast and other black 1 drop warriors to the mix.
So many options for gideon. You really just want a deck that is super aggressive, full of 1 drops and creatures that attack anyway , and without much effort hes a hero.
He's just so good in the early game as well as the late game, which is so awesome for aggro. Since you can drop him on turn one, you have time to get the mana to protect him or just flip him before most removal spells can be cast. As far as the late game, you can just drop him and already have the mana to protect him, plus in a good aggro build he will probably flip almost immediately.
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Standard: UR Artifacts
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Just a ruling question. I know that creatures reanimate with Alesha don't trigger attact trigger but do they trigger Kytheon ability since they still attacked ?
I'm pretty sure it would trigger since they did in fact attack. Otherwise, Kytheon would probably say something about the creatures having to be declared as attackers and that would be a little awkward.
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Ummm, you can flip him turn 2. Ky, Ornithopter, Ornithopter. DUH....
LOL that would be funny
Douchebag a father to the Hero? Nah can't, be Zeus wasn't like that...ohh wait.
A deck (Boros) that wants to play a 2/1 1-drop really has no issue flipping this guy turn 2.
Plenty of haste creatures and additional burn, he wont be blocked at all.
Goblin Guide and Monastary Swiftspear sounds like a nice package to start with.
Grim lavamancer and the usual burn package makes this pretty aggressive, and once it is flipped, you can force blockers to attack into this guy, which acts as pseudo removal against otherwise annoying blockers , even a Spellskite that "must" attack will just die against your blockers or deal a wooping 0 damage to Gideon.
Once flipped hes pretty annoying to kill and a 4/4 attacker also goes around most blockers and as hes indestructable anyway you can kill all these 5+ thoughness creatures that dare to block.
Hes not a auto-include for any white deck, but he sure is a house in any aggressive Boros deck.
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none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
It's like he was templated for Battalion but since that mechanic is not in MO then it makes sense to modify it this way. I love the flipped side too. A 4/4 indestructible with damage immunity? Sign me up.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I really wish there was a betting system on here. There's no way Jace sees the least play. He's at the very least better than Chandra, and gives Ojutai's Command new life. I agree on Liliana being the best in a vacuum, but the rest is up for debate.
Agreed. I'd personally say, in terms of likelihood of seeing play
Standard:
1. Gideon
2. Liliana
3. Jace
4. Nissa
5. Chandra
Modern:
1. Gideon
2. Jace
3. Liliana
4. Chandra
5. Nissa
Legacy:
1. Jace
2. Liliana
3. Gideon
4. Chandra
5. Nissa
I think Jace, Liliana, and Gideon are all likely to see play somewhere.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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I agree with this to a tee pretty much.
Which ones do you expect to be the most popular for EDH? Not exactly the most powerful, but most popular/fun.
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Jace in legacy? What would make him see legacy play? admitedly, that is a format where -2/-0 can actually occasionally be relevant
Gideon by a huge margin, he's a strictly better Isamaru. Nissa is interesting since green is good at tutoring/cheating creatures into play, so having a creature that turns into a PW is good, and as a general, she provides constant card advantage. Chandra and Jace are the worst in EDH by far (maybe for 1v1 French banlist with 30 life, Chandra could work with a pure burn deck). Liliana is good in the right deck or as the general.
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Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
And I do believe this is the first creature with an "end of combat" ability that checks whether the creature attacked that combat since Kjeldoran Home Guard, though Kytheon is the first to check exclusively attacking. Funnily enough, I had designed my own card with such an ability the other day, though it was ironically a BR Legend.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
1) Nissa
2) Chandra
3) Liliana
4) Gideon
5) Jace
There is no hand that transforms him in a timely manner for him to be relevant. Unless we have 2 Ornithopters...
In older formats people are playing Delver, Deathrite, Goyf, Stoneforge, turn 2 Tasigur, any amount of removal...
Perfect hand with Kytheon into Swiftspear + Guide is still bricked by a single 1/1 creature, no matter how much removal we have.
Everthing puts a halt on quick flip.
Affinity could use him just fine.
He is good but there is a reason why wizards think he can cost 1 mana.
GOD
Planeswalker-GOD
When this card enters the game you win the game
Loyalty (99)
It wont happen lol
But in general hes pretty bad, as you must flip it, even if you do not have a target for his -3, which is quite annoying as thats when you want the looter most (to find more spells).
Nissa would be decent if she would actual "ramp" you, as she allready is a restricted land tutor (basic forest only) , you can even find a dual with her and even if you flip her late game, shes just "fair", not really good, but if a deck wants fillers, she serves.
Liliana is clearly good if shes reliable and easy to flip. Doesnt go in every black deck and really wants some specific decks (coupled with stuff like Sakura-Tribe elder it works fairly well).
But in any older format, old Liliana is miles better and playing both seems quite a stretch.
Chandra badly lacks haste. Shes not completly bad, but the fact that she has to stay alive 1 turn in super aggressive red decks is a stretch, especially as nearly every alternative has an impact immediatly.
Then we have Gideon, 1 mana, just good no matter what and potentially a game winning bomb if the effects matter, its just good and especially brutal in Boros decks that play a ton of 1 drops anyway, coupled with burn and haste 1 drops.
The indestructible activated ability is so expensive and might be used so rarely, that it will probably eat some spells as a surprise or to survive a late game burn spell that others would not survive.
Together with Bloodsoaked Champion it might even produce a nice white/black deck with tons of reach, just add Bloodghast and other black 1 drop warriors to the mix.
So many options for gideon. You really just want a deck that is super aggressive, full of 1 drops and creatures that attack anyway , and without much effort hes a hero.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Modern: Affinity
Standard: UR Artifacts
EDH: Reaper King
Good that we now know this.
OTOH, just claiming that anyone disagreeing with you is very wrong is just egoistical and ensure people will ignore your posts.
Modern: Affinity
Standard: UR Artifacts
EDH: Reaper King