That is true now, but when Innistrad was first released its price was much lower: it was comparable (even if significantly lower) to the one of a foil Cryptic or a foil Hierarch. Two to one. The same goes for Mythics: a foil Liliana has to be compared to a foil Goyf, a foil Vendilion, a foil Karn or a foil Mox: four to one. I get yours was probably just a joke, but I think it's relevant to make a comparison between this set and one of the best ever made, both in draft and in value: this one costs more than twice as much, but also rewards more than twice as much. Furthermore, nowadays I'm not able to find an Innistrad booster pack for less than 10$, and for that price I'd rather play the bigger lottery
A week after release of the set you could take a foil snapcaster and trade it in for a box of innistrade , not sure if every store did that but that is the going buying price where I was at the time.
So the change is only about fifty dollars but still stays relevant.
OK guys, just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. MM2 is quite a divisive topic, so please keep it friendly among us.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's just so funny to read this thread and see how completely transparent some of these corporations are with their practice of injecting paid shills in social media to argue with actual, real forum readers.
BackToBasics2 -
Join Date: 5/22/2015
Posts: 68
Arguing vociferously to claim that this latest set has high value and is worth purchasing!
Sounds like a real, genuine, non-biased Magic player to me!
Just too funny to see these marketing ploys in action and how completely transparent they are. I mean, you don't even bother to register a more real-looking account? Like maybe register a whole stockpile of these years in advance so that when you finally use them they aren't "just registered"?
And if you decide to pick a username, maybe something a little less obvious than the name of an iconic Magic card? That's just screaming "LOOK AT ME YES I DO ACTUALLY PLAY MAGIC FOR FUN AND I'M NOT JUST BEING PAID BY HASBRO TO POST THIS".
From what I understand from my LGC wizards is letting them repeatably buy a case or so of it. There is no second wave as in i want 20 cases ok here you go but they will continue to trickle out.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
I don't understand; the lottery aspect of MM15 has been mathematically demonstrated and the low count of modern-playable commons and uncommons is not something that can be argued around.
And that's pretty significant. When you draft the latest standard set, even you you don't open the money-mythic, you end-up with cards that are standard-playable. The problem with the MM15 set is that outside of rare slot, you draft it and then almost all the cards you ended-up with are throw-away immediately. A beginner cannot draft MM15 a few times and end-up with the skeleton of a modern deck that would bring you to want more of modern. The number of feel-bad rares and the status of light-on-fire of the rest of the chaff you end-up with does not make the set desirable.
Making the set good in draft makes for nice camera time at MM15 weekend-end GP bash, but given the limited-run and high-price of the packs, is it really that important? It's not like the set will be drafted for months. Already, no one wants to draft it at the LGS I go to, ever since the release week-end. Praise it, praise it, praise it all you want, I know people here *are* voting with their wallet, they don't find the 40$+ experience worthwhile.
I don't understand; the lottery aspect of MM15 has been mathematically demonstrated and the low count of modern-playable commons and uncommons is not something that can be argued around.
And that's pretty significant. When you draft the latest standard set, even you you don't open the money-mythic, you end-up with cards that are standard-playable. The problem with the MM15 set is that outside of rare slot, you draft it and then almost all the cards you ended-up with are throw-away immediately. A beginner cannot draft MM15 a few times and end-up with the skeleton of a modern deck that would bring you to want more of modern. The number of feel-bad rares and the status of light-on-fire of the rest of the chaff you end-up with does not make the set desirable.
Making the set good in draft makes for nice camera time at MM15 weekend-end GP bash, but given the limited-run and high-price of the packs, is it really that important? It's not like the set will be drafted for months. Already, no one wants to draft it at the LGS I go to, ever since the release week-end. Praise it, praise it, praise it all you want, I know people here *are* voting with their wallet, they don't find the 40$+ experience worthwhile.
It's really a shame because the limited format is quite good. The MSRP for this product is just absurd.
I don't understand; the lottery aspect of MM15 has been mathematically demonstrated and the low count of modern-playable commons and uncommons is not something that can be argued around.
And that's pretty significant. When you draft the latest standard set, even you you don't open the money-mythic, you end-up with cards that are standard-playable. The problem with the MM15 set is that outside of rare slot, you draft it and then almost all the cards you ended-up with are throw-away immediately. A beginner cannot draft MM15 a few times and end-up with the skeleton of a modern deck that would bring you to want more of modern. The number of feel-bad rares and the status of light-on-fire of the rest of the chaff you end-up with does not make the set desirable.
Making the set good in draft makes for nice camera time at MM15 weekend-end GP bash, but given the limited-run and high-price of the packs, is it really that important? It's not like the set will be drafted for months. Already, no one wants to draft it at the LGS I go to, ever since the release week-end. Praise it, praise it, praise it all you want, I know people here *are* voting with their wallet, they don't find the 40$+ experience worthwhile.
I'm running on assumptions that I made from the recent "feel" and vibes Wizards have given out concerning Magic, I might be wrong, but I still think the situation can't be that far off what I think it is like.
This is a core issue with MM2 - I feel that Wizards has a "silent" "every set must be a great Limited format" policy running about. The first MM ran out of stock pretty fast because they were restricted to a Limited Print Run, and it didn't run out because people were drafting them fast, they ran out because people were rushing to buy boosters to open for value. To us, it isn't much a problem (well, except that the stock ran out and prices rose because of that), but I think Wizards felt that lack of Limited played felt like the set "failed as a set" since it wasn't "played" in "Limited: the Gathering".
In Standard, you will more or less end up with playables because in the end, most cards are "playable" in Standard (other than the obvious created-for-solely-limited-cards). In Modern, the number of such cards (at common/uncommon) isn't that much and that creates quite the price discrepancy between playables and non-playables past rotation. It probably won't happen at Common (MM1 proves that), but at the uncommon level, it is possible for the uncommons alone to "pay for the pack". It won't happen every pack, but it does reduce the incentive to draft since the rate of "paying for the pack through uncommons" is greatly reduced in draft.
Imagine the highly-wanted cards like Serum Visions, Path to Exile, Inquisition of Kozilek and more were in the set. MM2 packs can now range of "Uncommons do nothing value-wise" to "Uncommons pay for the pack". You don't want to be the person to open the later pack in a draft and having to pass the cards. You're more motivated to risk between the 2 types of packs by simply opening the pack instead.
People become less motivated to play Limited if the Limited format itself demolishes the value they could have gotten. There are probably people out there who don't play MM2 Limited solely by the possibility of opening a expensive rare and expensive foil, since every pack has a foil and on average a box does yield 1-3 foil rares/mythics.
Yes, this can happen in Standard drafts as well, but the rate is a lot lower for most sets (perhaps except Innistrad and Dark Ascension due to flip cards), because the uncommons don't usually hold enough value to support the pack (If it does, it's only usually 1 or 2 cards a set).
This may be why we only got Remand (and Lightning Bolt, but it was upshifted in rarity).
I'm not saying I'm happy with this either, but I think that was the rationale behind the whole thing. I also don't approve of the price increase and I can't find any reason for it especially since they "nerfed" the set for Limited already other than "Wizards read the "Players couldn't draft MM1 due to lack of stocks regardless of price due to others just opening packs" memo rather than the "Players refuse to pay raised prices to draft MM1 due to lack of stocks from others opening packs" memo" and really thought lots of people would have drafted MM1 at increased prices if it didn't ran out of stock.
just got off the phone with my distributor. he says there is no second print run, but whatever wizards has left they are going to ship out this week, so there may be some more boxes available for stores.
We drafted a box and it did'nt seem too cohesive and felt like we were drafting a mishmash of kamigawa and metalcraft...
)
You did it wrong, then. It is not a problem of the set, but a problem of yours.
The rentability of the draft is another issue, but this is very well-thought Limited environment.
very possibly, my playgroup think it sucks tho. I guess we are not pro enough
But I guess we were pro enough to draft MM1 where it was clearer I guess. We had fun. This set totally tanks compared to that (again only for my not pro group :p)
I cannot help but feel that there are some mishaps in the goals of the set and the expectations of the crowd.
1: The set is made for a limited environment with a few goals:
- To grant an entry for new players into modern. Did it succeed: That's still debated but so far it seems the arguments tilts towards; it's worse than MM1 to provide an entrance due to the lower count of usable commons and uncommons. Does that qualify as a break of promise from WotC's side? They did provide a lot of cards that are usable in Modern. They also had a lot of filler cards that doesn't feel like they belong to a set designed to help people enter Modern. Again the subject is debatable.
- To reduce prices on incredibly inflated cards like Tarmogoyf. Did it succeed: Overall yes. For Tarmogoyf, still a long road ahead to make it relatively reasonable as an entry barrier, which in itself is a moot point considering Magic is a card collection and card playing game and there will always be highly sought-after cards with ridiculous prices.
2: The set was created with the intend to serve Modern players. And most already know that eternal formats are much more expensive to be competitive in than standard, at which point one should also expect higher prices for sets intended for such format due to the already established market value on the cards in the set.
One thing to consider here: If EV is vastly above MSRP, shops will sell them at such a marked up price or crack open the packs to sell singles - because it gives THEM the most money.
3: For those who just want to draft a fun limited environment but ain't willing to shell out the higher prices: This is sadly not the product for you, just like the Commander products ain't for Modern players or Standard players. Vintage Masters was most likely neither the product for you, as it was only released in Wizard's Magic Online.
We must all accept that not everything Wizards produce with their intents and purposes corresponds with our desires and reservation price. As for availability like the lack of MM1, it's an issue WotC has to consider and proportionate to the consumer base.
My personal review of MM2015:
I didn't buy anything. My play group has basically stopped playing and like many others I thought the prices were too steep compared to what I wanted from the set - so basically it was only for the gamble, which I wasn't inclined to take.
I don't think highly of the limited environment of the set and was disappointed compared to the MM1-release, which I found had a lot of good interactions and interesting deck-building opportunities. It's quite possible that MM2015 also have a lot of deck-building opportunities but I wasn't tempted to try it out due to the price and cards included and that's quite alright.
I've read a couple of the articles which analyzed the set in terms of card-playability and I must say that I'm in the camp who claims that WotC didn't deliver what was promised. This is of course subjectivity but the analysis shows that compared to MM1, the MM2015-set did a worse job at providing an entry-opportunity for players to get into Modern.
very possibly, my playgroup think it sucks tho. I guess we are not pro enough
But I guess we were pro enough to draft MM1 where it was clearer I guess. We had fun. This set totally tanks compared to that (again only for my not pro group :p)
Yeah, I am trying to keep an open mind about it. Though so far I have liked MM1 a lot more. Part of it is I liked the strategies in MM1 more so far. Also I was excited for a lot more commons and uncommons in that set.
very possibly, my playgroup think it sucks tho. I guess we are not pro enough
But I guess we were pro enough to draft MM1 where it was clearer I guess. We had fun. This set totally tanks compared to that (again only for my not pro group :p)
Yeah, I am trying to keep an open mind about it. Though so far I have liked MM1 a lot more. Part of it is I liked the strategies in MM1 more so far. Also I was excited for a lot more commons and uncommons in that set.
I am actually beginning to think that thats it (the part in bold). I've really been trying to see where MM2 is a good draft. Rather than just a draft experience that I can get with ... just about any other set? And I have been looking for feedback about the draft experiences. I have found stuff on both sides of the fence. I found quite a bit of negativity (tho that might have been more with relation to the price), ... but its mostly anecdoctal (like my own playgroup's experience), but I think found a thread in reddit where the players seems mostly spikish and they seemed to like it =) . So I looked at their descriptions of their experiences and it kinda hit me... well it did'nt until I read your post. I think I did'nt like the strategies. For what its worth I went with b/w spirits and the rest kinda went affinity and I think there was 5-colour. So it kinda fit with what I read online(in terms of archtypes).. and thinking back... I guess I did'nt like the strategies. Also MM1 really felt tighter and almost like a cube, plus hey I like giants. In fact I still keep the cards and did'nt really break it up into other decks. MM2 tho...
We drafted a box and it did'nt seem too cohesive and felt like we were drafting a mishmash of kamigawa and metalcraft...
)
You did it wrong, then. It is not a problem of the set, but a problem of yours.
The rentability of the draft is another issue, but this is very well-thought Limited environment.
very possibly, my playgroup think it sucks tho. I guess we are not pro enough
But I guess we were pro enough to draft MM1 where it was clearer I guess. We had fun. This set totally tanks compared to that (again only for my not pro group :p)
Don't make yourself look stupid. I was not talking about being "pro" at all.
Let me clarify: When I saw MM1, I thought that this will be a kickass environment. And it was.
When I saw MM15, I thought - what the heck were they thinking? What a pile of uninteresting mish-mashed cards is that?
But when I looked at the set more closely, read a couple of articles, I realized that this might be even more well-thought Limited environment as MM1. It might be deceiving at first look, but much more rewarding once you understand.
In it, it is probably less intuitive, but more rewarding for a little more skilled drafters than complete beginners than MM1 was.
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100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
We drafted a box and it did'nt seem too cohesive and felt like we were drafting a mishmash of kamigawa and metalcraft...
)
You did it wrong, then. It is not a problem of the set, but a problem of yours.
The rentability of the draft is another issue, but this is very well-thought Limited environment.
very possibly, my playgroup think it sucks tho. I guess we are not pro enough
But I guess we were pro enough to draft MM1 where it was clearer I guess. We had fun. This set totally tanks compared to that (again only for my not pro group :p)
Don't make yourself look stupid. I was not talking about being "pro" at all.
Let me clarify: When I saw MM1, I thought that this will be a kickass environment. And it was.
When I saw MM15, I thought - what the heck were they thinking? What a pile of uninteresting mish-mashed cards is that?
But when I looked at the set more closely, read a couple of articles, I realized that this might be even more well-thought Limited environment as MM1. It might be deceiving at first look, but much more rewarding once you understand.
In it, it is probably less intuitive, but more rewarding for a little more skilled drafters than complete beginners than MM1 was.
It wasn't difficult to draft at all. I just got back from Vegas and did a ton of side events after scrubbing out of the main. I am generally terrible at limited, but I was able to draft a couple different pretty successful archetypes. I felt the most dominant was the BW soulshift deck. I drafted one of those with Double Strike Equipment backup plan and killed a side event. In 2HG, my partner was running 4C "Good Stuff Eldrazi Ramp" and I had Esper "kill everything and annoy you" deck. We would have 5-0'd if he did draw all 16 lands in his deck final round. In the main event (my first attempt) I went with equipment/artifacts for early drops, about 6 ramp cards, and Karn Liberated/2x Ulamog's Crusher. Worked great with Eye of Ugin and Expedition Map. When it connected, I was crushing it, but when it mulls or whiffs, it whiffs HARD.
Either way, this past weekend has drastically changed my opinion of the validity of MM15 as a draft format. It is bonkers and a lot of fun. I kind of stuck to what I was used to, but lots of different synergies available.
I was told by a store owner that there would be more Modern Masters 2015 product coming in and based on the amount of product received they would schedule additional Modern Masters drafts so stores are getting more product. Whether that is part of the same print run I don't know but that was what I was told.
I do agree that Modern Master 2015 Format is really fun to draft. The price of entry to draft is high with the $10 packs though.
The story above is why MM15 fails. There shouldn't be so many insult-rares in the set. At least half of the insult-rares should have been reasonable non-exorbitant pulls like Puresteel Paladin, Birds of Paradise, Leyline of the Void, Kataki, 8.5 Tails, etc.
In the 12 packs I had (The 6 opened and the 6 passed to me), there were 2 value cards: Spellskite in the pool I passed, Leyline of Sanctity in the pool I recieved. The rares in my play pool were:
Leyline of Anticipation
Hurkyl's Recall
Nobilis of War
Creakwood Liege
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Chimeric Mass
Now ain't that a kick in the face? Oh, it gets worse. Thought I could perhaps make a RW deck with the Nobilis as kingping? Fuggedaboutit, only 2 white creatures. Green/Black tokens? Sure, except aside from Endrek and the Liege, I only had a few of the Eldrazi Drones and nothing to DO with those tokens. Maybe something with artifacts? Nah, very few of those too. Removal? All in white, one Combust, and that was it.
So I cobble together some Jund Aggro, and what happens?
Round 1:
Game 1: Turn 7 Elesh Norn demolishes my field and gives him the win.
Game 2: Turn 8 Elesh Norn demolishes my field and gives him the win.
OK, nut draws happen, on to round two...
Game 1: Primeval Titan into Comet Storm kills you.
Game 2: Comet Storm into Vengeful Rebirth into Comet Storm kills you.
Thanks for the feelbad Wizards. It may be a lot of fun to draft, but stuff like this? Yeah, it kind of ruins one's GP experience pretty badly. So you can add that up to the reasons MM2 is a huge disappointment.
Oh well, at least the side events and the trading was fun.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
In the 12 packs I had (The 6 opened and the 6 passed to me), there were 2 value cards: Spellskite in the pool I passed, Leyline of Sanctity in the pool I recieved. The rares in my play pool were:
Leyline of Anticipation
Hurkyl's Recall
Nobilis of War
Creakwood Liege
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Chimeric Mass
Now ain't that a kick in the face? Oh, it gets worse. Thought I could perhaps make a RW deck with the Nobilis as kingping? Fuggedaboutit, only 2 white creatures. Green/Black tokens? Sure, except aside from Endrek and the Liege, I only had a few of the Eldrazi Drones and nothing to DO with those tokens. Maybe something with artifacts? Nah, very few of those too. Removal? All in white, one Combust, and that was it.
So I cobble together some Jund Aggro, and what happens?
Round 1:
Game 1: Turn 7 Elesh Norn demolishes my field and gives him the win.
Game 2: Turn 8 Elesh Norn demolishes my field and gives him the win.
OK, nut draws happen, on to round two...
Game 1: Primeval Titan into Comet Storm kills you.
Game 2: Comet Storm into Vengeful Rebirth into Comet Storm kills you.
Thanks for the feelbad Wizards. It may be a lot of fun to draft, but stuff like this? Yeah, it kind of ruins one's GP experience pretty badly. So you can add that up to the reasons MM2 is a huge disappointment.
Oh well, at least the side events and the trading was fun.
To be fair, Sealed always has a chance of ending up like this. Sure, MM2 made it a lot more obvious since the power of the Mythics is demonstrably there, but Sealed in any set is still going to be a flunk if you get a mediocre pool and either useless rares or rares "in the wrong colors/all over the place".
Which is I think why Draft is usually always the better Limited format. Maybe except in Cube formats.
Doesn't excuse MM2 for being such a "Lottery Set" for the sake of "Limited: the Gathering" though.
A guy at my local shop bought 8 boxes at full retail. I heard him say there was still a few cards he needed, and it was at that point that I started laughing at him.
I'm a sucker for the thrill of cracking packs, but 8 boxes o mm15 at retail price is insane! I told him he should have bought singles after I was done laughing, and that's when the entire group of people around us gave a collective "yep"at the same time.
A guy at my local shop bought 8 boxes at full retail. I heard him say there was still a few cards he needed, and it was at that point that I started laughing at him.
I'm a sucker for the thrill of cracking packs, but 8 boxes o mm15 at retail price is insane! I told him he should have bought singles after I was done laughing, and that's when the entire group of people around us gave a collective "yep"at the same time.
He just shrugged.
one of my customers bought 6 boxes for 1500, he readily trades on forums and other websites, he cracked 1900 in value, he was still missing playsets of some cards but he was happy, he will be able to trade his value for cards he needs. In the end it was a great investment for him, he was able to build 4 modern decks from the initial purchase, he was happy and im happy, buying singles only gets you the cards you need, if you are looking to trade up, the commons uncommons and pickup rares go along way, while most people on budget i recommend he singles, now he is the guy with everything in town.
mtg is a trading card game, and some people really enjoy working their collection for more value.
on a side note ONE of my distributors said he had 4 more boxes for me today, i still have not contacted my others.
This was a fun draft set I will admit, despite not being quite the reprint set everyone wanted it to also be. That said, there really should not be a second run. Prices have dropped enough for the time being, and frankly it's a bit of a tense draft considering its price so it's not a set I'd be too interested in playing more.
A guy at my local shop bought 8 boxes at full retail. I heard him say there was still a few cards he needed, and it was at that point that I started laughing at him.
I'm a sucker for the thrill of cracking packs, but 8 boxes o mm15 at retail price is insane! I told him he should have bought singles after I was done laughing, and that's when the entire group of people around us gave a collective "yep"at the same time.
He just shrugged.
one of my customers bought 6 boxes for 1500, he readily trades on forums and other websites, he cracked 1900 in value, he was still missing playsets of some cards but he was happy, he will be able to trade his value for cards he needs. In the end it was a great investment for him, he was able to build 4 modern decks from the initial purchase, he was happy and im happy, buying singles only gets you the cards you need, if you are looking to trade up, the commons uncommons and pickup rares go along way, while most people on budget i recommend he singles, now he is the guy with everything in town.
mtg is a trading card game, and some people really enjoy working their collection for more value.
on a side note ONE of my distributors said he had 4 more boxes for me today, i still have not contacted my others.
I don't think that most of us are considering a six-box investment. That would be the way to go, if you can afford it, since that'll tend to smooth out the distribution curve. He's much more likely to end up with the two Tarmogoyfs that will each pay for their own box. And if he got a foil 'Goyf, then sure he's happy no matter how many boxes he had to buy. But buying enough boxes to smooth out distribution gambles isn't really a workable plan for most of us.
I am curious how he calculated the value of his boxes - TCG mid/low, or your store prices? That is to say, is it $1900 based on how much he would've had to spend to acquire his new loot, or can he turn around and expect people to give him $1900 for his new loot?
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Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
I don't get what else Wizards could have done to make it better. If its full of staples and highly playables in every pack...the price goes nuts like the 2013 version. I ripped a case, kept what I needed and sold what I didn't while the prices were still high. I got about $250 for my foils alone....you just have to be smart about how you move them.
This set IS NOT a failure. It is only a failure to kids who ripped a few packs, didn't get a goyf and are on here crying about it. It has made many staples cheaper for people to snatch up and get into the format. Nobody loses when that happens.
If you want to see something crazy...I bought a ROE All is Dust about 2 months ago from MTGO for $10....and you now can buy it for about $0.50 online. Isn't that what is SUPPOSED to happen? Making it cheaper for those that want to break into the modern format? Daybreak Coronets went from $20+ to $1. That's a loss for players? Cmon....
The release was exactly what they wanted...get staples out and reduce the prices of them by AT LEAST 30% on the market as well as making a format that is actually fun to draft and participate in....without making it SO GOOD and SO VALUABLE that all the packs get marked up big time so that the casual collector/player doesn't get any.
I don't get what else Wizards could have done to make it better. If its full of staples and highly playables in every pack...the price goes nuts like the 2013 version.
They could print to demand so that price per pack and EV regressed closer to MSRP while still having lots of value cards.
I don't get what else Wizards could have done to make it better. If its full of staples and highly playables in every pack...the price goes nuts like the 2013 version. I ripped a case, kept what I needed and sold what I didn't while the prices were still high. I got about $250 for my foils alone....you just have to be smart about how you move them.
This set IS NOT a failure. It is only a failure to kids who ripped a few packs, didn't get a goyf and are on here crying about it. It has made many staples cheaper for people to snatch up and get into the format. Nobody loses when that happens.
If you want to see something crazy...I bought a ROE All is Dust about 2 months ago from MTGO for $10....and you now can buy it for about $0.50 online. Isn't that what is SUPPOSED to happen? Making it cheaper for those that want to break into the modern format? Daybreak Coronets went from $20+ to $1. That's a loss for players? Cmon....
The release was exactly what they wanted...get staples out and reduce the prices of them by AT LEAST 30% on the market as well as making a format that is actually fun to draft and participate in....without making it SO GOOD and SO VALUABLE that all the packs get marked up big time so that the casual collector/player doesn't get any.
Nice to see you have zero understanding why people hate this set.
MM2015 is completely, and one-sidedly top heavy. If you don't win the mythic sweepstakes (or if you pull Comet Storm, Primeval Titan, or Tezzeret), you're screwed. There are 34 rares in the set at less than $1. The set's EV is $164. There are THREE uncommons worth mentioning, and everything else is chaff. There is zero comparison to the first Modern Masters whatsoever. First MM had 27 worthwhile uncommons and 12 commons. MM2 had 3 uncommons, and zero commons.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
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A week after release of the set you could take a foil snapcaster and trade it in for a box of innistrade , not sure if every store did that but that is the going buying price where I was at the time.
So the change is only about fifty dollars but still stays relevant.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
BackToBasics2 -
Join Date: 5/22/2015
Posts: 68
Arguing vociferously to claim that this latest set has high value and is worth purchasing!
Sounds like a real, genuine, non-biased Magic player to me!
Just too funny to see these marketing ploys in action and how completely transparent they are. I mean, you don't even bother to register a more real-looking account? Like maybe register a whole stockpile of these years in advance so that when you finally use them they aren't "just registered"?
And if you decide to pick a username, maybe something a little less obvious than the name of an iconic Magic card? That's just screaming "LOOK AT ME YES I DO ACTUALLY PLAY MAGIC FOR FUN AND I'M NOT JUST BEING PAID BY HASBRO TO POST THIS".
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
And that's pretty significant. When you draft the latest standard set, even you you don't open the money-mythic, you end-up with cards that are standard-playable. The problem with the MM15 set is that outside of rare slot, you draft it and then almost all the cards you ended-up with are throw-away immediately. A beginner cannot draft MM15 a few times and end-up with the skeleton of a modern deck that would bring you to want more of modern. The number of feel-bad rares and the status of light-on-fire of the rest of the chaff you end-up with does not make the set desirable.
Making the set good in draft makes for nice camera time at MM15 weekend-end GP bash, but given the limited-run and high-price of the packs, is it really that important? It's not like the set will be drafted for months. Already, no one wants to draft it at the LGS I go to, ever since the release week-end. Praise it, praise it, praise it all you want, I know people here *are* voting with their wallet, they don't find the 40$+ experience worthwhile.
It's really a shame because the limited format is quite good. The MSRP for this product is just absurd.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
I'm running on assumptions that I made from the recent "feel" and vibes Wizards have given out concerning Magic, I might be wrong, but I still think the situation can't be that far off what I think it is like.
This is a core issue with MM2 - I feel that Wizards has a "silent" "every set must be a great Limited format" policy running about. The first MM ran out of stock pretty fast because they were restricted to a Limited Print Run, and it didn't run out because people were drafting them fast, they ran out because people were rushing to buy boosters to open for value. To us, it isn't much a problem (well, except that the stock ran out and prices rose because of that), but I think Wizards felt that lack of Limited played felt like the set "failed as a set" since it wasn't "played" in "Limited: the Gathering".
In Standard, you will more or less end up with playables because in the end, most cards are "playable" in Standard (other than the obvious created-for-solely-limited-cards). In Modern, the number of such cards (at common/uncommon) isn't that much and that creates quite the price discrepancy between playables and non-playables past rotation. It probably won't happen at Common (MM1 proves that), but at the uncommon level, it is possible for the uncommons alone to "pay for the pack". It won't happen every pack, but it does reduce the incentive to draft since the rate of "paying for the pack through uncommons" is greatly reduced in draft.
Imagine the highly-wanted cards like Serum Visions, Path to Exile, Inquisition of Kozilek and more were in the set. MM2 packs can now range of "Uncommons do nothing value-wise" to "Uncommons pay for the pack". You don't want to be the person to open the later pack in a draft and having to pass the cards. You're more motivated to risk between the 2 types of packs by simply opening the pack instead.
People become less motivated to play Limited if the Limited format itself demolishes the value they could have gotten. There are probably people out there who don't play MM2 Limited solely by the possibility of opening a expensive rare and expensive foil, since every pack has a foil and on average a box does yield 1-3 foil rares/mythics.
Yes, this can happen in Standard drafts as well, but the rate is a lot lower for most sets (perhaps except Innistrad and Dark Ascension due to flip cards), because the uncommons don't usually hold enough value to support the pack (If it does, it's only usually 1 or 2 cards a set).
This may be why we only got Remand (and Lightning Bolt, but it was upshifted in rarity).
I'm not saying I'm happy with this either, but I think that was the rationale behind the whole thing. I also don't approve of the price increase and I can't find any reason for it especially since they "nerfed" the set for Limited already other than "Wizards read the "Players couldn't draft MM1 due to lack of stocks regardless of price due to others just opening packs" memo rather than the "Players refuse to pay raised prices to draft MM1 due to lack of stocks from others opening packs" memo" and really thought lots of people would have drafted MM1 at increased prices if it didn't ran out of stock.
EDIT: Fixed some sentence errors.
very possibly, my playgroup think it sucks tho. I guess we are not pro enough
But I guess we were pro enough to draft MM1 where it was clearer I guess. We had fun. This set totally tanks compared to that (again only for my not pro group :p)
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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"The brain is wider than the sky,
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The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
1: The set is made for a limited environment with a few goals:
- To grant an entry for new players into modern. Did it succeed: That's still debated but so far it seems the arguments tilts towards; it's worse than MM1 to provide an entrance due to the lower count of usable commons and uncommons. Does that qualify as a break of promise from WotC's side? They did provide a lot of cards that are usable in Modern. They also had a lot of filler cards that doesn't feel like they belong to a set designed to help people enter Modern. Again the subject is debatable.
- To reduce prices on incredibly inflated cards like Tarmogoyf. Did it succeed: Overall yes. For Tarmogoyf, still a long road ahead to make it relatively reasonable as an entry barrier, which in itself is a moot point considering Magic is a card collection and card playing game and there will always be highly sought-after cards with ridiculous prices.
2: The set was created with the intend to serve Modern players. And most already know that eternal formats are much more expensive to be competitive in than standard, at which point one should also expect higher prices for sets intended for such format due to the already established market value on the cards in the set.
One thing to consider here: If EV is vastly above MSRP, shops will sell them at such a marked up price or crack open the packs to sell singles - because it gives THEM the most money.
3: For those who just want to draft a fun limited environment but ain't willing to shell out the higher prices: This is sadly not the product for you, just like the Commander products ain't for Modern players or Standard players. Vintage Masters was most likely neither the product for you, as it was only released in Wizard's Magic Online.
We must all accept that not everything Wizards produce with their intents and purposes corresponds with our desires and reservation price. As for availability like the lack of MM1, it's an issue WotC has to consider and proportionate to the consumer base.
My personal review of MM2015:
I didn't buy anything. My play group has basically stopped playing and like many others I thought the prices were too steep compared to what I wanted from the set - so basically it was only for the gamble, which I wasn't inclined to take.
I don't think highly of the limited environment of the set and was disappointed compared to the MM1-release, which I found had a lot of good interactions and interesting deck-building opportunities. It's quite possible that MM2015 also have a lot of deck-building opportunities but I wasn't tempted to try it out due to the price and cards included and that's quite alright.
I've read a couple of the articles which analyzed the set in terms of card-playability and I must say that I'm in the camp who claims that WotC didn't deliver what was promised. This is of course subjectivity but the analysis shows that compared to MM1, the MM2015-set did a worse job at providing an entry-opportunity for players to get into Modern.
Yeah, I am trying to keep an open mind about it. Though so far I have liked MM1 a lot more. Part of it is I liked the strategies in MM1 more so far. Also I was excited for a lot more commons and uncommons in that set.
I am actually beginning to think that thats it (the part in bold). I've really been trying to see where MM2 is a good draft. Rather than just a draft experience that I can get with ... just about any other set? And I have been looking for feedback about the draft experiences. I have found stuff on both sides of the fence. I found quite a bit of negativity (tho that might have been more with relation to the price), ... but its mostly anecdoctal (like my own playgroup's experience), but I think found a thread in reddit where the players seems mostly spikish and they seemed to like it =) . So I looked at their descriptions of their experiences and it kinda hit me... well it did'nt until I read your post. I think I did'nt like the strategies. For what its worth I went with b/w spirits and the rest kinda went affinity and I think there was 5-colour. So it kinda fit with what I read online(in terms of archtypes).. and thinking back... I guess I did'nt like the strategies. Also MM1 really felt tighter and almost like a cube, plus hey I like giants. In fact I still keep the cards and did'nt really break it up into other decks. MM2 tho...
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Don't make yourself look stupid. I was not talking about being "pro" at all.
Let me clarify: When I saw MM1, I thought that this will be a kickass environment. And it was.
When I saw MM15, I thought - what the heck were they thinking? What a pile of uninteresting mish-mashed cards is that?
But when I looked at the set more closely, read a couple of articles, I realized that this might be even more well-thought Limited environment as MM1. It might be deceiving at first look, but much more rewarding once you understand.
In it, it is probably less intuitive, but more rewarding for a little more skilled drafters than complete beginners than MM1 was.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
It wasn't difficult to draft at all. I just got back from Vegas and did a ton of side events after scrubbing out of the main. I am generally terrible at limited, but I was able to draft a couple different pretty successful archetypes. I felt the most dominant was the BW soulshift deck. I drafted one of those with Double Strike Equipment backup plan and killed a side event. In 2HG, my partner was running 4C "Good Stuff Eldrazi Ramp" and I had Esper "kill everything and annoy you" deck. We would have 5-0'd if he did draw all 16 lands in his deck final round. In the main event (my first attempt) I went with equipment/artifacts for early drops, about 6 ramp cards, and Karn Liberated/2x Ulamog's Crusher. Worked great with Eye of Ugin and Expedition Map. When it connected, I was crushing it, but when it mulls or whiffs, it whiffs HARD.
Either way, this past weekend has drastically changed my opinion of the validity of MM15 as a draft format. It is bonkers and a lot of fun. I kind of stuck to what I was used to, but lots of different synergies available.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I do agree that Modern Master 2015 Format is really fun to draft. The price of entry to draft is high with the $10 packs though.
In the 12 packs I had (The 6 opened and the 6 passed to me), there were 2 value cards: Spellskite in the pool I passed, Leyline of Sanctity in the pool I recieved. The rares in my play pool were:
Leyline of Anticipation
Hurkyl's Recall
Nobilis of War
Creakwood Liege
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Chimeric Mass
Now ain't that a kick in the face? Oh, it gets worse. Thought I could perhaps make a RW deck with the Nobilis as kingping? Fuggedaboutit, only 2 white creatures. Green/Black tokens? Sure, except aside from Endrek and the Liege, I only had a few of the Eldrazi Drones and nothing to DO with those tokens. Maybe something with artifacts? Nah, very few of those too. Removal? All in white, one Combust, and that was it.
So I cobble together some Jund Aggro, and what happens?
Round 1:
Game 1: Turn 7 Elesh Norn demolishes my field and gives him the win.
Game 2: Turn 8 Elesh Norn demolishes my field and gives him the win.
OK, nut draws happen, on to round two...
Game 1: Primeval Titan into Comet Storm kills you.
Game 2: Comet Storm into Vengeful Rebirth into Comet Storm kills you.
Thanks for the feelbad Wizards. It may be a lot of fun to draft, but stuff like this? Yeah, it kind of ruins one's GP experience pretty badly. So you can add that up to the reasons MM2 is a huge disappointment.
Oh well, at least the side events and the trading was fun.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
To be fair, Sealed always has a chance of ending up like this. Sure, MM2 made it a lot more obvious since the power of the Mythics is demonstrably there, but Sealed in any set is still going to be a flunk if you get a mediocre pool and either useless rares or rares "in the wrong colors/all over the place".
Which is I think why Draft is usually always the better Limited format. Maybe except in Cube formats.
Doesn't excuse MM2 for being such a "Lottery Set" for the sake of "Limited: the Gathering" though.
I'm a sucker for the thrill of cracking packs, but 8 boxes o mm15 at retail price is insane! I told him he should have bought singles after I was done laughing, and that's when the entire group of people around us gave a collective "yep"at the same time.
He just shrugged.
one of my customers bought 6 boxes for 1500, he readily trades on forums and other websites, he cracked 1900 in value, he was still missing playsets of some cards but he was happy, he will be able to trade his value for cards he needs. In the end it was a great investment for him, he was able to build 4 modern decks from the initial purchase, he was happy and im happy, buying singles only gets you the cards you need, if you are looking to trade up, the commons uncommons and pickup rares go along way, while most people on budget i recommend he singles, now he is the guy with everything in town.
mtg is a trading card game, and some people really enjoy working their collection for more value.
on a side note ONE of my distributors said he had 4 more boxes for me today, i still have not contacted my others.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I don't think that most of us are considering a six-box investment. That would be the way to go, if you can afford it, since that'll tend to smooth out the distribution curve. He's much more likely to end up with the two Tarmogoyfs that will each pay for their own box. And if he got a foil 'Goyf, then sure he's happy no matter how many boxes he had to buy. But buying enough boxes to smooth out distribution gambles isn't really a workable plan for most of us.
I am curious how he calculated the value of his boxes - TCG mid/low, or your store prices? That is to say, is it $1900 based on how much he would've had to spend to acquire his new loot, or can he turn around and expect people to give him $1900 for his new loot?
I don't get what else Wizards could have done to make it better. If its full of staples and highly playables in every pack...the price goes nuts like the 2013 version. I ripped a case, kept what I needed and sold what I didn't while the prices were still high. I got about $250 for my foils alone....you just have to be smart about how you move them.
This set IS NOT a failure. It is only a failure to kids who ripped a few packs, didn't get a goyf and are on here crying about it. It has made many staples cheaper for people to snatch up and get into the format. Nobody loses when that happens.
If you want to see something crazy...I bought a ROE All is Dust about 2 months ago from MTGO for $10....and you now can buy it for about $0.50 online. Isn't that what is SUPPOSED to happen? Making it cheaper for those that want to break into the modern format? Daybreak Coronets went from $20+ to $1. That's a loss for players? Cmon....
The release was exactly what they wanted...get staples out and reduce the prices of them by AT LEAST 30% on the market as well as making a format that is actually fun to draft and participate in....without making it SO GOOD and SO VALUABLE that all the packs get marked up big time so that the casual collector/player doesn't get any.
They could print to demand so that price per pack and EV regressed closer to MSRP while still having lots of value cards.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Nice to see you have zero understanding why people hate this set.
MM2015 is completely, and one-sidedly top heavy. If you don't win the mythic sweepstakes (or if you pull Comet Storm, Primeval Titan, or Tezzeret), you're screwed. There are 34 rares in the set at less than $1. The set's EV is $164. There are THREE uncommons worth mentioning, and everything else is chaff. There is zero comparison to the first Modern Masters whatsoever. First MM had 27 worthwhile uncommons and 12 commons. MM2 had 3 uncommons, and zero commons.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."