I'm fine with these changes. I put Condemn in the first commander deck I built but removed it right after the first time I played it. I thought it was annoying to build a deck around a certain card just to be deprived of that card in every game, so I just stopped doing that and encouraged my playgroup to do the same with Hinder and the like. Commander is not meant to be a competitive format, so I think there is no reason to make the game unfun on purpose.
About bouncing, I think they just wanted the rules to cover the remaining possibility, but I'm sure they are aware nobody is sending his general to the command zone after being bounced.
Really weird rules change. I find it hard to believe that they actually deemed the unfun factor of a commander occasionally being tucked to be less fun than getting railed over and over again by some of the oppressive commanders. And I'm obviously not the only one who thinks that the amount of tutors people play isn't going to change at all. I don't run Eladamri's Call to get back my Rafiq once it's been tucked, I run it to get something stupid like Iona, Prophet of Kruphix, or Deadeye Navigator. Having free access to Rafiq again after this rule is only going to make the deck better, and less fun for my opponents.
A solid decision. I agree with them on it. You shouldn't have to splash white or blue to deal with certain commanders. You are going to have to get a bit more creative.
Hey, look, you'll still need to splash blue or white. The cards that can fulfill the same purpose as tuck cards, are primarily in the same colors (even auras like Pacifism and Darksteel Mutation).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My decks
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
while i agree that tuck was a good answer (uril is my first and favorite EDH deck); the fourth point in the RC's argument is a good selling point for the change.
for those who haven't read the link mentioned earlier:
"4) It clears up some corner case rules awkwardness, mostly dealing with knowing the commanders locationin the library (since highly unlikely to actually end up there).
When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commanderness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a facedown commander can kill you. "
i'm also surmising that they spoke with the 1-1 committee on feedback since that format has not had any tuck and is a growing format; as well as the new tiny leaders which has no tuck effects.
but like all changes to the format, i say try it out. if your group doesn't like it, house rule!
The problem with the argument about rules and commanderness problem is that with this new ruling... they don't go away. You can still allow your commander to be tucked. It's a choice, so it doesn't avoid corner cases, just make them rarer.
IMO, the whole problem is single-mindedness about commanderness. For example, I think it's wrong that a a face-down commander would stillbe your commander. In all other games, and according to the MTG rulebook, a face-down card has no abilities. It the same in all format... except commander? The weird part is that commander is steered by many top-level judges. If you ask them about face-down cards in any format, they'll tell you they have no abilities.
I think the obsession about flavor end up flavoring things that should not be. A card in a library is card, it's not a commander. The flavor of a library is that it's a library, not a permanent.
I never saw the reason why interactions in moving a Commander from one zone to another (thereby giving the option to put it back in the Command zone if the player wished) would function differently. I see this as a tightening up of the rules - now when the Commander moves to wherever, you have the option of returning it to the command zone.
The rules beforehand were clunky and encouraged degenerate play - remember, this isn't a serious format.
I think everyone is seriously blowing this whole thing out of proportion. As someone who plays tuck effects in every deck I have that can use them, I don't feel like their value has diminished because I lost the commander as a tuck target. Worst case, it makes their Commander cost 2 more, which can be brutal against a high cost general sometimes.
There are still plenty of amazing targets for Tuck that are not the commander of the deck, and plenty of ways to stop commanders that are degenerate without tucking. Most creatures can be enchanted with something that stops them from activating their abilities and attacking, or turning them into something useless. And for the Hexproof commanders you still have Prison Term as well as Arcane Lighthouse and every other card that can now target them.
I don't play 1v1 commander at all, and they've had this, and it's not a big deal. It really sucks to have a voltron deck and have your commander tucked, really discourages an entire strategy, suiting up your commander with a pile of swords/auras and swinging for victory. Voltron can be hard enough in multiplayer, let alone when your general ends up getting tucked either before it hits the board the first time or before you get to untap with them.
And, for those talking about combo generals, it's generally another card enabling them (Food Chain for example, which was just banned in 1v1).
So, what I'm hearing is that there's now literally no complete answer in any color but black for Skullbriar. I'm hearing that Chaos Warp, a card printed exclusively in Commander preconstructed decks, is basically useless in Commander save as enchantment removal for mono-red. I'm hearing that there's no real reason to run Hallowed Burial ever, and even Terminus is now iffy compared to Final Judgment. I'm hearing that Oblation, which has been reprinted twice in Commander preconstructed decks, is completely useless in Commander. I'm hearing that Spell Crumple, another card printed exclusively in Commander preconstructed decks, is now equal in Commander to Cancel.
Yeah, safe to say I'm not happy right now. First time in a long time I've completely disagreed with a rule change. If it's really because new players are incapable of reading cards correctly and tucking hurts their feelings, then the rules committee is pathetic. What an asinine decision.
Chaos Warp is still really sweet removal. I mean it's an instant Vindicate in mono red just like Oblation is an instant Vindicate. They're awesome political tools, efficient universal removal, and you might even cast them on your own stuff. Hallowed Burial can be meta dependently better than Wrath of God and Terminus is a miracle. Spell Crumple is still better than Cancel. It just may or may not be better than Dissipate. Condemn is still going to be one mana removal. I think the only cards people will necessarily stop playing altogether are the ones that were only not horrible because they could tuck. Of course, I have a feeling the 3 X where X is the amount you spent on them commanders could go the command zone if they get bounced. Sure, it's corner case but it makes Unsummon and Boomerang better for the grixis one. It might even lead to Blood Clock and its functional equilivant from way back seeing a little more play.
That's not the main issue. I don't have that an extreme revulsion of this decision. I'm focussing more of the players' regard for the RC. Particularly enfranchised players.
One could say they won't care but I personally think WotC would be regarded and adhered with more understanding and willingness than the RC. One bases its decision from solid data and the other bases it on flavor and feeling.
And "anti-tucking" rule isn't new. It's practically adopted from its sister variant Duel Commander, who is slowly but surely getting more responses and reviews from players. That their RC is more data-driven and up to speed, whilst the EDH RC makes its rules and bannings based on flavor and some tabletalk.
It makes one wonder if one day EDH would be considered as an extension of Duel Commander instead of the current reverse.
Well, this makes those flip planeswalker commanders from Origins even cooler. No need to worry about them getting shuffled, just play them in a clear sleeve.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
I don't mind the no-tucking rule as much, but I am not sure it'll be too great. It is nice sometimes to relieve the game of certain commanders for a while. Like Kaalia. I don't like decks that revolve too much around their general to the point that one must get rid of it just to have a better game state.
Since EDH is a casual format, I see no reason not to simply ignore this new ruling if my play group chooses.
I know my group will largely ignore this, as we aren't really gonna want to change around our EDH decks to take all the tuck effects out. This decision is pretty odd, and I feel like something that most people will ignore anyway, as it's kind of an obscure ruling. Definitely our group did not even realize that tucking didn't work in 1-on-1s until very recently.
No tucking is a great rule. The commander is special and should always be available to cast from the command zone.
As one of the unique features of this format, I think it is good that you can't mess around with it anymore.
i am definitely a bit miffed at this thing, but i do think the cards that tuck are still valuable (just not the counterspells, now i just have to take two cancels out of my esper deck ). I'm still totally down with oblation, condemn and chaos warp as cards that "kill" any commander at instant speed.
on that note, if i cast oblation and they go to the command zone instead of getting shuffled away, my opponent gets no cards correct?
if i cast oblation and they go to the command zone instead of getting shuffled away, my opponent gets no cards correct?
They would still draw two cards. In order for the draw part to be nullified it would have to read something like: "The owner of target nonland permanent shuffles it into his or her library. If he or she does, they draw two cards."
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
It is nice sometimes to relieve the game of certain commanders for a while. Like Kaalia.
Just wanting to say that I don't really see the problem with an 8-mana Kaalia =)
(Point is valid for other commanders of course)
I couldn't think of other examples at the time of Commanders who have the entire deck built around them and can be antagonizing. Though I will say even at 8 mana it's not much because they're not usually using their mana to cast the big hitters, but she does it for them. Either way my playgroup keeps things casual so it's never too bad.
That said, how many would actually return their General to the command zone? Casting it form hand is probably better anyway. It's tucking that really changes things. But I doubt it'll have the impact we might think it will having just learned of the change.
At first I was going to comment on all of the asinine comments about how this is a good rule change ect ect, but I wont.
Then I was going to complain about how this is about the dumbest thing that they could have done to EDH, but I wont.
I was also going to say that this is just more pandering to the butt hurt cry babies who need to learn how to play the game, but I wont.
In the end, I think my play group will probably just ignore this atrocity and play real grown-up Magic.
Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Really wish Wizards would just take ober as the RC. They do stuff for the right reasons and not cause it makes you feel bad. Heavens forbid Sheldon gets upset at a card in a game.
I feel the people here are acting in a way that is very appropriate for EDH, a format about giant plays. Why simply react to something when you can overreact instead.
my experiences with tucking have been the following:
I casted Hallowed Burial once and tucked away two opponent generals. they proceeded to gang up on me (rightfully so) but the game lasted for about 3 hours because they didn't have their generals to kill me off with. I took Hallowed burial out immediately after that.
in all the other games, one player's general will get tucked, and they'll just sit there wondering what song they could humm while wallowing in unbelievable disadvantage compared to other players whose generals are still in the command zone.
so idk man, tucking has proven to be a bit toxic in my playgroup, so I really love this change, but I think part of the reason is because we have infinite combos banned.
I can see both the pros and cons for this, but for me I think the cons outweigh the pros in this case. Certain commanders are going to be even more annoying to take care of and this does make tuck cards slightly worse because of this. I understand the thought that you should always be able to play your commander, which is the leader of your army or whatever, but there had to be at least one way of dealing with them a little more than to keep killing it over and over.
Commanders going to your hand being an addition to the "can put it into the commander zone instead" seems odd as everyone doesn't mind that happening.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
About bouncing, I think they just wanted the rules to cover the remaining possibility, but I'm sure they are aware nobody is sending his general to the command zone after being bounced.
Hey, look, you'll still need to splash blue or white. The cards that can fulfill the same purpose as tuck cards, are primarily in the same colors (even auras like Pacifism and Darksteel Mutation).
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
for those who haven't read the link mentioned earlier:
"4) It clears up some corner case rules awkwardness, mostly dealing with knowing the commanders locationin the library (since highly unlikely to actually end up there).
When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commanderness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a facedown commander can kill you. "
i'm also surmising that they spoke with the 1-1 committee on feedback since that format has not had any tuck and is a growing format; as well as the new tiny leaders which has no tuck effects.
but like all changes to the format, i say try it out. if your group doesn't like it, house rule!
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
IMO, the whole problem is single-mindedness about commanderness. For example, I think it's wrong that a a face-down commander would stillbe your commander. In all other games, and according to the MTG rulebook, a face-down card has no abilities. It the same in all format... except commander? The weird part is that commander is steered by many top-level judges. If you ask them about face-down cards in any format, they'll tell you they have no abilities.
I think the obsession about flavor end up flavoring things that should not be. A card in a library is card, it's not a commander. The flavor of a library is that it's a library, not a permanent.
The rules beforehand were clunky and encouraged degenerate play - remember, this isn't a serious format.
Maybe if we don't complain, let the format die a little, and they'll start unbanning cards? lol
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
There are still plenty of amazing targets for Tuck that are not the commander of the deck, and plenty of ways to stop commanders that are degenerate without tucking. Most creatures can be enchanted with something that stops them from activating their abilities and attacking, or turning them into something useless. And for the Hexproof commanders you still have Prison Term as well as Arcane Lighthouse and every other card that can now target them.
I don't play 1v1 commander at all, and they've had this, and it's not a big deal. It really sucks to have a voltron deck and have your commander tucked, really discourages an entire strategy, suiting up your commander with a pile of swords/auras and swinging for victory. Voltron can be hard enough in multiplayer, let alone when your general ends up getting tucked either before it hits the board the first time or before you get to untap with them.
And, for those talking about combo generals, it's generally another card enabling them (Food Chain for example, which was just banned in 1v1).
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page
One could say they won't care but I personally think WotC would be regarded and adhered with more understanding and willingness than the RC. One bases its decision from solid data and the other bases it on flavor and feeling.
And "anti-tucking" rule isn't new. It's practically adopted from its sister variant Duel Commander, who is slowly but surely getting more responses and reviews from players. That their RC is more data-driven and up to speed, whilst the EDH RC makes its rules and bannings based on flavor and some tabletalk.
It makes one wonder if one day EDH would be considered as an extension of Duel Commander instead of the current reverse.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I know my group will largely ignore this, as we aren't really gonna want to change around our EDH decks to take all the tuck effects out. This decision is pretty odd, and I feel like something that most people will ignore anyway, as it's kind of an obscure ruling. Definitely our group did not even realize that tucking didn't work in 1-on-1s until very recently.
As one of the unique features of this format, I think it is good that you can't mess around with it anymore.
on that note, if i cast oblation and they go to the command zone instead of getting shuffled away, my opponent gets no cards correct?
They would still draw two cards. In order for the draw part to be nullified it would have to read something like: "The owner of target nonland permanent shuffles it into his or her library. If he or she does, they draw two cards."
They're "newb"ifying EDH again!
The loss of separate banlists was bad enough,
but I'm pretty sure this is a sign we're already on that "slippery slope" to Dumbston.
I guarantee you we will see a mashup of Command Tower and Cavern of Souls in one of the upcoming Commander releases.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I couldn't think of other examples at the time of Commanders who have the entire deck built around them and can be antagonizing. Though I will say even at 8 mana it's not much because they're not usually using their mana to cast the big hitters, but she does it for them. Either way my playgroup keeps things casual so it's never too bad.
That said, how many would actually return their General to the command zone? Casting it form hand is probably better anyway. It's tucking that really changes things. But I doubt it'll have the impact we might think it will having just learned of the change.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Then I was going to complain about how this is about the dumbest thing that they could have done to EDH, but I wont.
I was also going to say that this is just more pandering to the butt hurt cry babies who need to learn how to play the game, but I wont.
In the end, I think my play group will probably just ignore this atrocity and play real grown-up Magic.
Warning for trolling
-ktkenshinx-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
I casted Hallowed Burial once and tucked away two opponent generals. they proceeded to gang up on me (rightfully so) but the game lasted for about 3 hours because they didn't have their generals to kill me off with. I took Hallowed burial out immediately after that.
in all the other games, one player's general will get tucked, and they'll just sit there wondering what song they could humm while wallowing in unbelievable disadvantage compared to other players whose generals are still in the command zone.
so idk man, tucking has proven to be a bit toxic in my playgroup, so I really love this change, but I think part of the reason is because we have infinite combos banned.
Commanders going to your hand being an addition to the "can put it into the commander zone instead" seems odd as everyone doesn't mind that happening.