Woow they gave up because of a simple rule change?Bunch of babies.Come on some people din't like it but learned to deal with it and still kept playing adapting to it instead of just givinng up
Commander has damn-near died at my shop. We've started our first Commander League since the rule change and noone signed up, which is odd since we've had at least a dozen people per league, if not more. The handful of people I've talked to cited the rule change and how it makes the compeitive nature of the League miserable, especially with Prossh, Animar, and Kaalia players around. I'm not sure if the rule change alone was responsible for the exodus of EDH players from my LGS, but it's become hard even starting a casual game. It's a shame; Commander's my favorite format.
Same with my local game store. Now i have to drive twice far to play in a small 6-8 people group instead of 10-16 i am use to.
Why do people keep talking about splashing blue/white into a deck to have access to tuck? I thought that the commander's colors dictated what colors could be in your deck. If you want to play a Xenagos deck you surely cannot splash white or blue. I suppose you can change to play Surrak, but then doesn't that change what else you are putting into your deck anyway?
Why do people keep talking about splashing blue/white into a deck to have access to tuck? I thought that the commander's colors dictated what colors could be in your deck. If you want to play a Xenagos deck you surely cannot splash white or blue. I suppose you can change to play Surrak, but then doesn't that change what else you are putting into your deck anyway?
Because they're forgetting red and green can do it, too. 4 colors have access to it. If you're outside those colors (like mono black), odds are you are using a totally different strategy anyway. But at any given 4 player pod I've ever been in, someone at the table had access to it if something became degenerate, or that degenerate thing curb stomped the other 3 guys.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
This isn't a hard to thing to fix.
Here's what my friends and I do:
"hey, the new legend rule is stupid, let's keep playing with the one that makes sense."
"I agree."
And then we play.
I assume the same rule applies here.
Also, other fun EDH variants to make the table more balanced
10$ EDH Decks
BDH deck (10 rares/mythics, 20 uncommons, 35 commons)
Or if you have enough people willing to pitch in, make a cube large enough to draft edh decks.
I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
This isn't a hard to thing to fix.
Here's what my friends and I do:
"hey, the new legend rule is stupid, let's keep playing with the one that makes sense."
"I agree."
And then we play.
I assume the same rule applies here.
Also, other fun EDH variants to make the table more balanced
10$ EDH Decks
BDH deck (10 rares/mythics, 20 uncommons, 35 commons)
Or if you have enough people willing to pitch in, make a cube large enough to draft edh decks.
That is good if you have a group of friends. Though the intent of the rules committee isn't for groups of friends.
The problem comes when you go some place to play with strangers or people you don't know that well. Then the rules help everyone to know what to expect. So it sounds like the rules could be turning people off from going to the local game store and searching out others to play with.
I am mixed on the rules change. When I was first being taught about the format I was a little confused on the tuck. Though I think it was taught to me that if the commander ever has anything done to it then it goes back. When it should of just been taught as graveyard or exile. So I can see the confusion for new players but its probably more of not teaching it right. I do think the bigger problem is some kind of degenerative commander which this was the only way to deal with it. I would have to imagine it was saved more for this happening rather than just trolling a new player.
The best way to get the rule changed back is for everyone to get hyper competitive and run degenerative commanders. That way the issue gets pushed to have more attention as why this kind of affect is important.
This is why Highlander is a better format. It's competitive. Can be 1v1 or free for all. And it's a normal game of magic. Not a format based on who can have the dumbest card as their commander that breaks the format. Like eggs in modern. The only people who were made when eggs was banned was the players playing it. It was a stupid non interactive deck that was better off in the trash can then at a LGS. and now one rules change just destroyed blue as a worth while color in EDH. Play highlander. It's a mans format where cards like Bounce are still relevant.
Moral of the story if you can't handle a magic card that tucks, you can always buy candyland and play that with your friends. Or everyone can go back to playing highlander like it should be.
This is why Highlander is a better format. It's competitive. Can be 1v1 or free for all. And it's a normal game of magic. Not a format based on who can have the dumbest card as their commander that breaks the format. Like eggs in modern. The only people who were made when eggs was banned was the players playing it. It was a stupid non interactive deck that was better off in the trash can then at a LGS. and now one rules change just destroyed blue as a worth while color in EDH. Play highlander. It's a mans format where cards like Bounce are still relevant.
Moral of the story if you can't handle a magic card that tucks, you can always buy candyland and play that with your friends. Or everyone can go back to playing highlander like it should be.
and now one rules change just destroyed blue as a worth while color in EDH.
I agree, blue has always been the worse color in commander and poor Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Oona, Queen of the Fae, the most fair commanders are now completely unplayable.
oh wait...
I agree, blue has always been the worse color in commander and poor Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Oona, Queen of the Fae, the most fair commanders are now completely unplayable.
oh wait...
See, my answer to Azami and Oona was usually to send them somewhere they would never come back from.
The best way to get the rule changed back is for everyone to get hyper competitive and run degenerative commanders. That way the issue gets pushed to have more attention as why this kind of affect is important.
I agree with this, and might start playing tutor-heavy combo Prossh on MTGO when the rules change goes live.
Duel Commander works because the format bans the degenerate enablers (broken mana, broken tutors). EDH doesn't (well, it's inconsistent - some broken mana is banned such as Mox Ruby, some much higher power level broken mana isn't), and the format relied upon tuck as a safety valve. Do something absurd, and someone *will* Hinder your Prossh.
I think the best rules change to deal with the broken commanders is to ban Derevi, then make rescuing your commander from the Command Zone cost a draw step. Not just a card, an actual 'for the turn draw'.
Your commander is always available to you except for a turn when they get killed, but you can't abuse the rules to cast your commander multiple times in a turn.
The handful of people I've talked to cited the rule change and how it makes the compeitive nature of the League miserable
Maybe that is the real problem here.
I mean I don't play Commander and probably never will but the format is clearly advertised as being a strictly casual format.
It's in the first sentence on the official Wizards website http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/gameplay/formats/commander
"In this casual, multiplayer format, you start with a life total of 40 (rather than the usual 20) and choose a legendary creature to serve as your Commander."
After reading this very entertaining thread for a while this is the conclusion that I have come to. All the people who complain about losing to certain stuff because of the rules change are spikes/competitive people. If you are that concerned with winning or losing than you are not a casual player.
This entry about the casual gamer sums it up quite nicely even though they are only mentioning pc and console games here http://de.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=casual gamer
"use pc and console games as a means of socializing or to connect with friends rather than as an achievement or to further their reputation as a skillful game player."
"Obviousy, all gamers are bound by the desire to win at any given game, there would be no point to any game if that were not true, but the over-riding desire to connect with other individuals, be it close friends or distant aquaintances define the casual gamer."
I think it's fair to say that there are people who problably shouldn't be playing Commander or at least acknowledge that the format wasn't made for them and is and will not be tailored to them in the future.
I would say that a clear statement from the guy/s responsible for the Commander format would certainly help in bringing that across and to clear it up.
The handful of people I've talked to cited the rule change and how it makes the compeitive nature of the League miserable
Maybe that is the real problem here.
I mean I don't play Commander and probably never will but the format is clearly advertised as being a strictly casual format.
It's in the first sentence on the official Wizards website http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/gameplay/formats/commander
"In this casual, multiplayer format, you start with a life total of 40 (rather than the usual 20) and choose a legendary creature to serve as your Commander."
After reading this very entertaining thread for a while this is the conclusion that I have come to. All the people who complain about losing to certain stuff because of the rules change are spikes/competitive people. If you are that concerned with winning or losing than you are not a casual player.
This entry about the casual gamer sums it up quite nicely even though they are only mentioning pc and console games here http://de.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=casual gamer
"use pc and console games as a means of socializing or to connect with friends rather than as an achievement or to further their reputation as a skillful game player."
"Obviousy, all gamers are bound by the desire to win at any given game, there would be no point to any game if that were not true, but the over-riding desire to connect with other individuals, be it close friends or distant aquaintances define the casual gamer."
I think it's fair to say that there are people who problably shouldn't be playing Commander or at least acknowledge that the format wasn't made for them and is and will not be tailored to them in the future.
I would say that a clear statement from the guy/s responsible for the Commander format would certainly help in bringing that across and to clear it up.
Is this an argument for changing the banned list to just ante cards and hated lock cards (Limited Resources, Winter Orb, etc)? It sounds like that is what you are for.
I would say that a clear statement from the guy/s responsible for the Commander format would certainly help in bringing that across and to clear it up.
My playgroups house ruled that rule away years ago. It is unfun to play a game where the main feature of the game is turned off. It would be like playing Settlers of Catan without trading or playing Planechase without the planar die.
Commanders across the world: I realize you have people in your playgroup that try to ruin the game by becoming un-interactive, prevent you from playing, or bring about the end of every game they play. I realize you want them to get theirs, let karma get them, or adapt to a punishing strategy or deck to counteract their nonsense. But let me just say this: tucking was not the answer to this problem. It doesn't matter what the rules of Magic are, these people are still going to find ways of playing the game the way they want to be played-- for themselves, at the cost of everyone else's entertainment. They are some level of selfish, they want their own experience, they don't care about the experience of their group. But changing the rules of Commander, the rules of Free for All, or the rules of Magic itself is not going to change that. Only those players can change that. And you may be the only ones who can make them change. Do what you can to tell them it's unfun to play with them. If it's so bad that we have an uprising every time a rule changes, then clearly there's something else bothering us than just simply a rule being fun or unfun. And that something else is the people we play with. If it comes to it, and a player won't give up being unfun, just stop playing with him. That's true for any game or any activity you participate with them. If they ruin the experience, and they don't care that they ruin it, then nobody's going to ask them back. It's the same as someone who gets angry at every camping trip we take him on-- we just don't invite him to camping trips anymore. Guys, we can blame rules changes, banlists, commander lists, certain combos, certain strategies, certain environments, on and on and on. We can change them forever and still have the same problems forever. Look for the root of the problem, because in 99% of situations I've seen or been apart of, the problem has been the players, not the game.
No more tucking on generals? HURRAY!
It was always fairly BS that you needed to run tutors or hexproof/shroud for your general just so they didn't get tucked which was a worse fate than being exiled if you had no easy means of recovering your general.
Okay, this idea is janky and terrible and certainly not new and libertarians will despise it, but:
Commander tax brackets.
To replay better-performing commanders, you have to pay more. Someone counters or kills that Azami? The whole table gets to breathe while the player tries to find 4 more mana. Prossh players scoffing at a measly 2 mana in a token-heavy green deck? Might not be scoffing at 5. Zurgo Bellstriker decks performing poorly? Well, they probably still will, but having a commander tax of only 1 will help.
It's inelegant, yes, requiring a whole bunch of work from the rules committee and some research by the players, but once we have a working document of the brackets, the advent of smartphones will make it pretty easy to refer to even in the middle of a paper game. It won't solve everything, but it might make some of the scarier commander centric decks a little less scary. Which, without tucking, is something we might need.
Something like this, but with less bookkeeping, allow qualifying targeted removal to hit commanders in the command zone (maybe after they've been cast once) - in order to increase the play cost. So for extra dangerous commanders, people can hate them with extra removal in order to make it harder to play them (though not impossible).
One thing that I would REALLY like to know is when will Wizards implement this rule into MTGO? I have my commander tucked just about every match still to this day. I am not in favor of the rule change to no more tucking, but either make it so, or formally take it back.
One thing that I would REALLY like to know is when will Wizards implement this rule into MTGO? I have my commander tucked just about every match still to this day. I am not in favor of the rule change to no more tucking, but either make it so, or formally take it back.
They announced this would happen with the Magic Origins release.
Same with my local game store. Now i have to drive twice far to play in a small 6-8 people group instead of 10-16 i am use to.
Because they're forgetting red and green can do it, too. 4 colors have access to it. If you're outside those colors (like mono black), odds are you are using a totally different strategy anyway. But at any given 4 player pod I've ever been in, someone at the table had access to it if something became degenerate, or that degenerate thing curb stomped the other 3 guys.
My LGS just doesn't use it.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
Here's what my friends and I do:
"hey, the new legend rule is stupid, let's keep playing with the one that makes sense."
"I agree."
And then we play.
I assume the same rule applies here.
Also, other fun EDH variants to make the table more balanced
10$ EDH Decks
BDH deck (10 rares/mythics, 20 uncommons, 35 commons)
Or if you have enough people willing to pitch in, make a cube large enough to draft edh decks.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
That is good if you have a group of friends. Though the intent of the rules committee isn't for groups of friends.
The problem comes when you go some place to play with strangers or people you don't know that well. Then the rules help everyone to know what to expect. So it sounds like the rules could be turning people off from going to the local game store and searching out others to play with.
I am mixed on the rules change. When I was first being taught about the format I was a little confused on the tuck. Though I think it was taught to me that if the commander ever has anything done to it then it goes back. When it should of just been taught as graveyard or exile. So I can see the confusion for new players but its probably more of not teaching it right. I do think the bigger problem is some kind of degenerative commander which this was the only way to deal with it. I would have to imagine it was saved more for this happening rather than just trolling a new player.
The best way to get the rule changed back is for everyone to get hyper competitive and run degenerative commanders. That way the issue gets pushed to have more attention as why this kind of affect is important.
Moral of the story if you can't handle a magic card that tucks, you can always buy candyland and play that with your friends. Or everyone can go back to playing highlander like it should be.
I agree, blue has always been the worse color in commander and poor Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Oona, Queen of the Fae, the most fair commanders are now completely unplayable.
oh wait...
Oh wait...
I agree with this, and might start playing tutor-heavy combo Prossh on MTGO when the rules change goes live.
Duel Commander works because the format bans the degenerate enablers (broken mana, broken tutors). EDH doesn't (well, it's inconsistent - some broken mana is banned such as Mox Ruby, some much higher power level broken mana isn't), and the format relied upon tuck as a safety valve. Do something absurd, and someone *will* Hinder your Prossh.
I think the best rules change to deal with the broken commanders is to ban Derevi, then make rescuing your commander from the Command Zone cost a draw step. Not just a card, an actual 'for the turn draw'.
Your commander is always available to you except for a turn when they get killed, but you can't abuse the rules to cast your commander multiple times in a turn.
Maybe that is the real problem here.
I mean I don't play Commander and probably never will but the format is clearly advertised as being a strictly casual format.
It's in the first sentence on the official Wizards website http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/gameplay/formats/commander
"In this casual, multiplayer format, you start with a life total of 40 (rather than the usual 20) and choose a legendary creature to serve as your Commander."
After reading this very entertaining thread for a while this is the conclusion that I have come to. All the people who complain about losing to certain stuff because of the rules change are spikes/competitive people. If you are that concerned with winning or losing than you are not a casual player.
This entry about the casual gamer sums it up quite nicely even though they are only mentioning pc and console games here http://de.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=casual gamer
"use pc and console games as a means of socializing or to connect with friends rather than as an achievement or to further their reputation as a skillful game player."
"Obviousy, all gamers are bound by the desire to win at any given game, there would be no point to any game if that were not true, but the over-riding desire to connect with other individuals, be it close friends or distant aquaintances define the casual gamer."
I think it's fair to say that there are people who problably shouldn't be playing Commander or at least acknowledge that the format wasn't made for them and is and will not be tailored to them in the future.
I would say that a clear statement from the guy/s responsible for the Commander format would certainly help in bringing that across and to clear it up.
Is this an argument for changing the banned list to just ante cards and hated lock cards (Limited Resources, Winter Orb, etc)? It sounds like that is what you are for.
You mean something like http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254
They should totally do that.
Commanders across the world: I realize you have people in your playgroup that try to ruin the game by becoming un-interactive, prevent you from playing, or bring about the end of every game they play. I realize you want them to get theirs, let karma get them, or adapt to a punishing strategy or deck to counteract their nonsense. But let me just say this: tucking was not the answer to this problem. It doesn't matter what the rules of Magic are, these people are still going to find ways of playing the game the way they want to be played-- for themselves, at the cost of everyone else's entertainment. They are some level of selfish, they want their own experience, they don't care about the experience of their group. But changing the rules of Commander, the rules of Free for All, or the rules of Magic itself is not going to change that. Only those players can change that. And you may be the only ones who can make them change. Do what you can to tell them it's unfun to play with them. If it's so bad that we have an uprising every time a rule changes, then clearly there's something else bothering us than just simply a rule being fun or unfun. And that something else is the people we play with. If it comes to it, and a player won't give up being unfun, just stop playing with him. That's true for any game or any activity you participate with them. If they ruin the experience, and they don't care that they ruin it, then nobody's going to ask them back. It's the same as someone who gets angry at every camping trip we take him on-- we just don't invite him to camping trips anymore. Guys, we can blame rules changes, banlists, commander lists, certain combos, certain strategies, certain environments, on and on and on. We can change them forever and still have the same problems forever. Look for the root of the problem, because in 99% of situations I've seen or been apart of, the problem has been the players, not the game.
It was always fairly BS that you needed to run tutors or hexproof/shroud for your general just so they didn't get tucked which was a worse fate than being exiled if you had no easy means of recovering your general.
Something like this, but with less bookkeeping, allow qualifying targeted removal to hit commanders in the command zone (maybe after they've been cast once) - in order to increase the play cost. So for extra dangerous commanders, people can hate them with extra removal in order to make it harder to play them (though not impossible).
Custom Set
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hu9uNBSUt92PwGhvexYlwFvsh6_SJBlEEIUV3H9_XyU/edit?usp=sharing
They announced this would happen with the Magic Origins release.