It's horrible late game because you can just spend 3 mana to give it counters? Yeah, I hate it when my cards have a built in mana sink so they aren't totally blank in the late game.
What does it do as a turn 7 topdeck? 2WWW for an molten hydra without the burn clause?
You can sink mana into it, but it requires absurd investment before it becomes a reasonable threat, to reach just a 5/5 vanilla creature you are spending 10WWWWWWW
Not suck balls, that's what. If it didn't have the ability to pump itself, then drawing it with an empty hand would give you literally nothing. Well, a prowess trigger. It doesn't start with any Lore counters, so casting it by its lonesome does zippo to advance your board state. It'd be like Bloodchief Ascendancy - amazing on turn 1 and godawful on all subsequent turns.
BUT! Adding this ability means it is not entirely worthless later on. It ain't gonna drop as a 7/7, sure, but at least you're able to cobble up a 1/1 chump blocker that will grow if it's not dealt with. You present a threat if the board is empty and you are at least doing SOMETHING if its not. That's why this clause is so critical.
With the printing of Dromoka's command coupled with the plethora of removal that has already been spoiled, it seems unlikely to be that ground breaking. Besides that it has zero evasion. Neat design idea though.
Man, I'd love to have people use great removal on my one drop.
It's horrible late game because you can just spend 3 mana to give it counters? Yeah, I hate it when my cards have a built in mana sink so they aren't totally blank in the late game.
What does it do as a turn 7 topdeck? 2WWW for an molten hydra without the burn clause?
You can sink mana into it, but it requires absurd investment before it becomes a reasonable threat, to reach just a 5/5 vanilla creature you are spending 10WWWWWWW
To the people saying it's a bad late game topdeck, most one drops tend to be.
This card is very, very good and the threat of activation can be powerful.
Well, most one drops tend not to get played, and being bad topdeck is a prime consideration. The ones that do are high aggro threats, this isnt
This card has the dual problem of being weak on turn 1-3 and giving no early threat from a one-drop, but also giving an awful topdeck. It can make up for that like the NPH shrines by giving you some serious value for low investment if, and only if, dropped early, otherwise at least it can recover at prohibitive cost as a wildly overcosted but scalable threat that dodges at least some removal.
It doesn't make the card necessarily bad, just narrow.
And I think you hit the reason in your description of them- they are all extremely aggressive cards that can take off a large chunk of life early and/or trade with bigger 2-3 drops, giving large value. This can't do that on the first few turns on the game, its very unaggressive and slow. It has the possibility to trade with a higher cost card later on or take a big chunk of life after a board wipe, its true, but its not aggro and it will keep it from ever being compared to those beaters- the decks that would run goblin guides didn't care about going lategame
If anything, you can't really appraise this as a 1-drop, its a mana sink and dead card in the first few turns, its hard to picture a deck that wouldn't have better things to do than swing with a 1/1 on turn 3 or whatever. And when you start talking about a higher cost mana sink thats sad and slow when topdecked, it doesn't get the excuse that 1-drops get of "This card is for early aggro, it doesn't matter if its bad topdeck on turn 7".
Mind you, I should add that even a turn 7 champion can chump block a ground fatty for a turn for 1, while it takes five mana just to get this to chump someone
To the people saying it's a bad late game topdeck, most one drops tend to be.
This card is very, very good and the threat of activation can be powerful.
Well, most one drops tend not to get played, and being bad topdeck is a prime consideration. The ones that do are high aggro threats, this isnt
This card has the dual problem of being weak on turn 1-3 and giving no early threat from a one-drop, but also giving an awful topdeck. It can make up for that like the NPH shrines by giving you some serious value for low investment if, and only if, dropped early, otherwise at least it can recover at prohibitive cost as a wildly overcosted but scalable threat that dodges at least some removal.
It doesn't make the card necessarily bad, just narrow.
And I think you hit the reason in your description of them- they are all extremely aggressive cards that can take off a large chunk of life early and/or trade with bigger 2-3 drops, giving large value. This can't do that on the first few turns on the game, its very unaggressive and slow. It has the possibility to trade with a higher cost card later on or take a big chunk of life after a board wipe, its true, but its not aggro and it will keep it from ever being compared to those beaters- the decks that would run goblin guides didn't care about going lategame
If anything, you can't really appraise this as a 1-drop, its a mana sink and dead card in the first few turns, its hard to picture a deck that wouldn't have better things to do than swing with a 1/1 on turn 3 or whatever. And when you start talking about a higher cost mana sink thats sad and slow when topdecked, it doesn't get the excuse that 1-drops get of "This card is for early aggro, it doesn't matter if its bad topdeck on turn 7".
Mind you, I should add that even a turn 7 champion can chump block a ground fatty for a turn for 1, while it takes five mana just to get this to chump someone
have you considered that if control is top decking, we're fine to be chumping for 5? I mean if we have nothing else to use our mana for, why not?
I never understand why people complain about mana "dumps" late game. If it's the only thing to use my mana on, I'm fine using it. Also, if against UW control they use one of your limited mainboard enchantment removal spells on my thing, then at least my banishing lights get better.
See the problem with Myth is that if its gonna be your finisher and your are gonna invest the time and energy to make it a finisher (read design space), it doesn't matter if its a one drop, its still gonna suck.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
See the problem with Myth is that if its gonna be your finisher and your are gonna invest the time and energy to make it a finisher (read design space), it doesn't matter if its a one drop, its still gonna suck.
Why do you view it as investing time and energy? This is the type of card that rewards you for doing what you were going to do anyway.
And I think you hit the reason in your description of them- they are all extremely aggressive cards that can take off a large chunk of life early and/or trade with bigger 2-3 drops, giving large value. This can't do that on the first few turns on the game, its very unaggressive and slow.
While I agree that this is less aggressive than the previously mentioned cards it can still be very agressive in the right modern deck. Gitaxian probe, lightning bolt, serum visions, remand, thought scour, mana leak, etc set this up to be a very under-costed beater in a short amount of time. In the right deck it can out pace tarmagoyf. In modern the W activation cost is going to be pretty prohibitive but not as prohibitive as monastery mentor's 3cmc. People have noted that it dodges sorcery speed removal but I would like to emphasize that this includes Lilliana of the veil. I think the real question is going to be if it can hold up against the other large creature options such as tasigur and goyf.
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Yep, if the deck is designed entirely around creatureless control. And then, about turn 7 or 8 when you think your gonna swing with it your opponent drops AD and its dead regardless. I mean sure, it gets big but who cares. Your going under the assumption that your opponent isn't gonna be able to deal with it. More times than not, that's a very bad assumption.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It doesn't belong in a control deck. It belongs in the RW beatdown/burn deck. There is really no good 1 drops in Standard. drop this first turn. Cast your burn spells, token generators and whenever they tap low, you hit them for 3-4 for W.
Swiftspear really isn't that powerful in standard outside of sligh. It can't really deal with big creatures and the instnts and sorceries in standard aren't cheap enought to reliably cast multiple a turn.
Yep, if the deck is designed entirely around creatureless control. And then, about turn 7 or 8 when you think your gonna swing with it your opponent drops AD and its dead regardless. I mean sure, it gets big but who cares. Your going under the assumption that your opponent isn't gonna be able to deal with it. More times than not, that's a very bad assumption.
I'm not sure who you are replying too, but I think most people are discussing a tempo deck suck as jeskia fireworks, or a token deck such as RW aggro. These types of decks have been successful in the current as well as modern and legacy (well tokens not so much in legacy). Ideally you will win before turn 7-8 but if it does drag on that long then this card will have to be answered by your opponent and if rabble master has showed us anything it's that must answer threats are very very good.
Myth Realized is probably better the older the format is. For instance, it is probably at its best in vintage as almost a better version of Quirion Dryad. Can't be removed with Bolt even early on, and benefits massively from all the fast mana of the format and the lack of enchantment removal (outside of Abrupt Decay).
Unaffected by sorcery-speed creature removal (like sweepers), comes down before counterspells, can be charged up at end of turn keeping your mana open. Sounds like the recipe for a control finisher?
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Turn 1 perma-prowess end gamer that's immune to all of your wraths? I'm ok with this. It shouldn't need evasion or protection in counterwrath.dec. This card enables a very, very mean deck.
This card reeeaaally wished it stopped being an enchantment when it became a dude so it doesnt randomly die to the gw command or reclaimation sages or whatever
Control decks historically have played plenty of noncreature permanents that turn into small creatures. Hell, I'm pretty sure the sages wrote about control mages of old doing this even before Jesus fought Tupac: the resulting ten millennia we've lived without fear from Vegan overlords taking away our Mishra's Factory and Genju of the Falls is just a blink of an eye.
This thing requires little investment, rewards investment, and can be a mana-dump later on to pump even when you're low on cards. It can be a cheap blocker that grows larger incidentally from you just playing your deck, and a cheap attacker that can seal the deal when you're ready to close it out. It could get hated out, but you could say the same for any card in Magic. If it sees play, it'll be taking names and chewing bubble gum all over the place. If it doesn't, it's still a sweet card.
Yep, if the deck is designed entirely around creatureless control. And then, about turn 7 or 8 when you think your gonna swing with it your opponent drops AD and its dead regardless. I mean sure, it gets big but who cares. Your going under the assumption that your opponent isn't gonna be able to deal with it. More times than not, that's a very bad assumption.
A few problems I have with this:
1. If any deck has the ability to get under removal spells, it is any kind of control deck.
2. Another person has this quote in their sig about how "Goyf doesn't die to removal. Removal dies to Goyf". It's definitely right sometimes to Murderous Cut a Monastery Swiftspear, but you're not happy to do it. I'm not saying your Azorious Control list should be 28x Land 4x Myth Realized x28 Counters. This is a 1-mana card to put down, becomes a 1 mana blocker when it advantages you. There's never a situation where you HAVE to put anything into it. Mana still untapped end of opponent's turn and nothing better to do? How about adding a counter instead of doing absolutely nothing?
Unless you just don't play any non-hexproof, non-ETB creature EVER.
Yep, if the deck is designed entirely around creatureless control. And then, about turn 7 or 8 when you think your gonna swing with it your opponent drops AD and its dead regardless. I mean sure, it gets big but who cares. Your going under the assumption that your opponent isn't gonna be able to deal with it. More times than not, that's a very bad assumption.
A few problems I have with this:
1. If any deck has the ability to get under removal spells, it is any kind of control deck.
2. Another person has this quote in their sig about how "Goyf doesn't die to removal. Removal dies to Goyf". It's definitely right sometimes to Murderous Cut a Monastery Swiftspear, but you're not happy to do it. I'm not saying your Azorious Control list should be 28x Land 4x Myth Realized x28 Counters. This is a 1-mana card to put down, becomes a 1 mana blocker when it advantages you. There's never a situation where you HAVE to put anything into it. Mana still untapped end of opponent's turn and nothing better to do? How about adding a counter instead of doing absolutely nothing?
Unless you just don't play any non-hexproof, non-ETB creature EVER.
Welcome to modern...lol.(Bold part...) I get what you're saying. Honestly this might be what everyone wanted Monastery Mentor to be, which is pretty high praise. I just don't think it pushes GoST or Celestial Colonnade out of their respective roles.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
In Standard, I don't think this is as good as people think. Even if the 2nd ability seems like it was shooed in for constructed, the presence of Dromoka's Command, Abrupt Decay, etc will nerf any attempts.
Not that people won't try anyways. It should be awesome with Rebound in limited at least. Or until we get a good rebound cantrip like Think Twice.
Why would you want evasion, just play a board sweeper (which powers it up) tap mana and attack against an empty board. Or you can give it evasion with spells, again powering it up. Open your mind, you might discover something.
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What does it do as a turn 7 topdeck?
2WWW for an molten hydra without the burn clause?
You can sink mana into it, but it requires absurd investment before it becomes a reasonable threat, to reach just a 5/5 vanilla creature you are spending 10WWWWWWW
Not suck balls, that's what. If it didn't have the ability to pump itself, then drawing it with an empty hand would give you literally nothing. Well, a prowess trigger. It doesn't start with any Lore counters, so casting it by its lonesome does zippo to advance your board state. It'd be like Bloodchief Ascendancy - amazing on turn 1 and godawful on all subsequent turns.
BUT! Adding this ability means it is not entirely worthless later on. It ain't gonna drop as a 7/7, sure, but at least you're able to cobble up a 1/1 chump blocker that will grow if it's not dealt with. You present a threat if the board is empty and you are at least doing SOMETHING if its not. That's why this clause is so critical.
Man, I'd love to have people use great removal on my one drop.
This card is very, very good and the threat of activation can be powerful.
Only if you're running a deck with 4 Myth Realized and 56 plains.
special thanks to sentimentgx4 for the sig
Pourquoi?
It's a 1 drop that is terrible on turns 1-3, but becomes a smaller Scute Mob that is immune to sorceries.
I don't think it will get there in Standard, but it merits testing in all formats.
It certainly is a better card late than Champion of the Parish, Goblin Guide, Delver of Secrets and Monastery Swiftspear, which were unambiguously the best aggressive 1 drops of the last ten years. (Those are all better early and I don't think this will ever reach their power level)
Well, most one drops tend not to get played, and being bad topdeck is a prime consideration. The ones that do are high aggro threats, this isnt
This card has the dual problem of being weak on turn 1-3 and giving no early threat from a one-drop, but also giving an awful topdeck. It can make up for that like the NPH shrines by giving you some serious value for low investment if, and only if, dropped early, otherwise at least it can recover at prohibitive cost as a wildly overcosted but scalable threat that dodges at least some removal.
It doesn't make the card necessarily bad, just narrow.
And I think you hit the reason in your description of them- they are all extremely aggressive cards that can take off a large chunk of life early and/or trade with bigger 2-3 drops, giving large value. This can't do that on the first few turns on the game, its very unaggressive and slow. It has the possibility to trade with a higher cost card later on or take a big chunk of life after a board wipe, its true, but its not aggro and it will keep it from ever being compared to those beaters- the decks that would run goblin guides didn't care about going lategame
If anything, you can't really appraise this as a 1-drop, its a mana sink and dead card in the first few turns, its hard to picture a deck that wouldn't have better things to do than swing with a 1/1 on turn 3 or whatever. And when you start talking about a higher cost mana sink thats sad and slow when topdecked, it doesn't get the excuse that 1-drops get of "This card is for early aggro, it doesn't matter if its bad topdeck on turn 7".
Mind you, I should add that even a turn 7 champion can chump block a ground fatty for a turn for 1, while it takes five mana just to get this to chump someone
have you considered that if control is top decking, we're fine to be chumping for 5? I mean if we have nothing else to use our mana for, why not?
I never understand why people complain about mana "dumps" late game. If it's the only thing to use my mana on, I'm fine using it. Also, if against UW control they use one of your limited mainboard enchantment removal spells on my thing, then at least my banishing lights get better.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Why do you view it as investing time and energy? This is the type of card that rewards you for doing what you were going to do anyway.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
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Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Swiftspear begs to differ.
I'm not sure who you are replying too, but I think most people are discussing a tempo deck suck as jeskia fireworks, or a token deck such as RW aggro. These types of decks have been successful in the current as well as modern and legacy (well tokens not so much in legacy). Ideally you will win before turn 7-8 but if it does drag on that long then this card will have to be answered by your opponent and if rabble master has showed us anything it's that must answer threats are very very good.
.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
This thing requires little investment, rewards investment, and can be a mana-dump later on to pump even when you're low on cards. It can be a cheap blocker that grows larger incidentally from you just playing your deck, and a cheap attacker that can seal the deal when you're ready to close it out. It could get hated out, but you could say the same for any card in Magic. If it sees play, it'll be taking names and chewing bubble gum all over the place. If it doesn't, it's still a sweet card.
A few problems I have with this:
1. If any deck has the ability to get under removal spells, it is any kind of control deck.
2. Another person has this quote in their sig about how "Goyf doesn't die to removal. Removal dies to Goyf". It's definitely right sometimes to Murderous Cut a Monastery Swiftspear, but you're not happy to do it. I'm not saying your Azorious Control list should be 28x Land 4x Myth Realized x28 Counters. This is a 1-mana card to put down, becomes a 1 mana blocker when it advantages you. There's never a situation where you HAVE to put anything into it. Mana still untapped end of opponent's turn and nothing better to do? How about adding a counter instead of doing absolutely nothing?
Unless you just don't play any non-hexproof, non-ETB creature EVER.
Welcome to modern...lol.(Bold part...) I get what you're saying. Honestly this might be what everyone wanted Monastery Mentor to be, which is pretty high praise. I just don't think it pushes GoST or Celestial Colonnade out of their respective roles.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
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Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Not that people won't try anyways. It should be awesome with Rebound in limited at least. Or until we get a good rebound cantrip like Think Twice.
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Why would you want evasion, just play a board sweeper (which powers it up) tap mana and attack against an empty board. Or you can give it evasion with spells, again powering it up. Open your mind, you might discover something.