On the subject of Terminate - Kolaghan's Command pretty much solidifies the fact that we aren't ever going to have that effect again in Standard for BR.
I mean, if it isn't printable at 3 CMC and as a rare...
I think it's very weak compared to the others
- The discard effect is horrible, worse than mardu char discard, that is not even used.
- Destroying artifacts is irrelevant right now.
- Returning a single creature from the grave, even at instant, is not exciting.
- Shock for 3 mana? Not worth the cost even when added with one of the other effects.
The problem is that all of this effects are worth only 1 mana. The two better effects are worth only 2 manas together, while the other commands 2 best mode together pays for the whole mana investiment.
I agree with others, this seems to be a tough card to evaluate. The thing is, Disentomb is a sorcery effect, this is an instant speed spell, so that kind of throws the idea that every effect is a 1-mana effect out the window. Most instant speed Disentomb effects are 2 mana (although most also have some other upside... but then again, this card has a lot of upside, because there are 4 modes to choose from).
Disentomb is a really bad effect....
you spend mana just to swap a card in your hand for a card in your graveyard, it's hardly efficient, and as you can only grab creatures, it's not really versatile.
needs a load of preparation (or a really late game status) if you want that to be really useful.
It's like an awful tutor or a weird "draw a card" effect... it's better than draw if you have that creature you need in your graveyard, and worse if you don't.
Should it be a Shallow Grave or Unearth effect and the card would be a lot better IMO.
Yeah, the card, as it is, really has a lot of value, but at rare I'd expect it to be a little more pushed....
still, it's a nice card.
I think its on the line to be playable in the correct modern build. I play cruel control in modern and I will for sure try this as a singleton. The destroy artefact his good game one against cranial plating, but most likely you will shock him or 1 of his guy and bring back a snapcaster, tasigur or a clique. The discard seems weak, but when your oppenent is in topdeck mode playing this at the end of his draw phases will be good.
Leyline of Sanctity is still fairly common in Modern and it can shut down 2 modes on this card.
This just seems worse than Rakdos Charm for most common situations because it prevents graveyard use, it can be a blow out against token strategies (infinite or otherwise), and the artifact destruction is useful in some matches. When cheap answers are highly sought after, 3 mana is a lot more than 2.
Rakdos charm is a SB card same for leyline if this is gonna see pay in modern it will defenetly MB. As I said above its on the line, this is for sure not overpowered but its denefetly Worth testing. Also seem really good against another answer to affinity game 1 (getting both the plating and the signal pest). Bringing back a snapcaster and killing one of your guys at instant speed seem something my deck want to do.
I agree with others, this seems to be a tough card to evaluate. The thing is, Disentomb is a sorcery effect, this is an instant speed spell, so that kind of throws the idea that every effect is a 1-mana effect out the window. Most instant speed Disentomb effects are 2 mana (although most also have some other upside... but then again, this card has a lot of upside, because there are 4 modes to choose from).
Disentomb is a really bad effect....
you spend mana just to swap a card in your hand for a card in your graveyard, it's hardly efficient, and as you can only grab creatures, it's not really versatile.
needs a load of preparation (or a really late game status) if you want that to be really useful.
It's like an awful tutor or a weird "draw a card" effect... it's better than draw if you have that creature you need in your graveyard, and worse if you don't.
Should it be a Shallow Grave or Unearth effect and the card would be a lot better IMO.
Yeah, the card, as it is, really has a lot of value, but at rare I'd expect it to be a little more pushed....
still, it's a nice card.
Disentomb is generally bad because because you end up card neutral, but you paid a mana, and there are times when Disentomb can't even bring anything back.
While placed on this card, though, you cannot judge it versus Disentomb. At the end of casting Kolaghan's Command you should be up a card. Kolaghan's Command also doesnt suffer from being a dead draw like Disentomb (for the most part.)
The playability of this card, as it stands now, hinges on how good shock is against the field. If shock isn't ok to cast, Kolaghan's Command won't be useful, with the caveat we don't see an increase in artifact power any time soon.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
I agree with others, this seems to be a tough card to evaluate. The thing is, Disentomb is a sorcery effect, this is an instant speed spell, so that kind of throws the idea that every effect is a 1-mana effect out the window. Most instant speed Disentomb effects are 2 mana (although most also have some other upside... but then again, this card has a lot of upside, because there are 4 modes to choose from).
Disentomb is a really bad effect....
you spend mana just to swap a card in your hand for a card in your graveyard, it's hardly efficient, and as you can only grab creatures, it's not really versatile.
needs a load of preparation (or a really late game status) if you want that to be really useful.
It's like an awful tutor or a weird "draw a card" effect... it's better than draw if you have that creature you need in your graveyard, and worse if you don't.
Should it be a Shallow Grave or Unearth effect and the card would be a lot better IMO.
Yeah, the card, as it is, really has a lot of value, but at rare I'd expect it to be a little more pushed....
still, it's a nice card.
Disentomb is generally bad because because you end up card neutral, but you paid a mana, and there are times when Disentomb can't even bring anything back.
While placed on this card, though, you cannot judge it versus Disentomb. At the end of casting Kolaghan's Command you should be up a card. Kolaghan's Command also doesnt suffer from being a dead draw like Disentomb (for the most part.)
The playability of this card, as it stands now, hinges on how good shock is against the field. If shock isn't ok to cast, Kolaghan's Command won't be useful, with the caveat we don't see an increase in artifact power any time soon.
shock for 3 mana is hardly ok to cast in any meta.
but, yeah, if shock can actually kill an actually nice number of creatures, than it might be pretty decent.
Boy, it's a good thing there isn't a 2 toughness threat running the format right now. If this command could both kill that threat and return one of your own to your hand, that would be really good
#RealTalk though: you guys are way too critical of these new commands. Go back and look at the original command cycle. Cryptic was the only one that was oppressively powerful, and could probably be considered a mistake by R&D. This card is strong, yet fair, and the guaranteed 2 for 1 nature should slot right into Mardu and help push it back into the ring. Well done, WotC.
Edit: To all those saying that the Disentomb effect requires too much set-up, I'll tell you this - if your opponent hasn't killed your Rabblemaster, you were winning the game already anyways.
I like it. This card gives Tormenting Voice some main deck thunder. I would have LOVED it if it had Forked Bolt instead of Shock as its 3rd mode so it could be a sort of Nega-Electrolyze. Also, there are quite a number of tokens in standard right now, so it woulda been cool to have a pushback to those kinds of decks.
deals 2 damage to target creature or player
Is a Shock which costs R
no matter which module you choose, you're essentially paying 1RB for 2 mana worth of effects.
OK, you're just spending one card and Instant Speed discard is pretty powerful as it can be essentially a time walk in the right conditions. disentomb effects tend to never see play, artifact hate in a flexible card is nice to have and shock is a pretty subpar removal, but removal is still removal.
Should this card cost BR it would be really awesome.
for 1BR I'm not really sure...
I guess Atarka's and Ojutai's Command are still ahead in power.
This card is VERY likely to see lots of play in standard, at 1RB I guess it won't see much play in modern.
I agree with your analysis. This seems like the kind of card that is too expensive at 1BR, but too powerful at BR. Difficult to say, though, as the relevance of two of the modes (Crush + Shock) are highly dependent on the metagame.
I like it. I would have LOVED it if it had Forked Bolt instead of Shock as its 3rd mode so it could be a sort of Nega-Electrolyze. Also, there are quite a number of tokens in standard right now, so it woulda been cool to have a pushback to those kinds of decks.
I agree a split would be fantastic. But i only run 3 creatures, so am admittingly dismissing that piece, this on their end of turn into a Blightning or Cruel Ultimatum is dirty though.
I know it was foolish of me, but I was really kinda hoping the BR one would include a "Destroy target land" clause. It's been too long. When is wizards going to have the guts to print land destruction again?
I agree with others, this seems to be a tough card to evaluate. The thing is, Disentomb is a sorcery effect, this is an instant speed spell, so that kind of throws the idea that every effect is a 1-mana effect out the window. Most instant speed Disentomb effects are 2 mana (although most also have some other upside... but then again, this card has a lot of upside, because there are 4 modes to choose from).
Disentomb is a really bad effect....
you spend mana just to swap a card in your hand for a card in your graveyard, it's hardly efficient, and as you can only grab creatures, it's not really versatile.
needs a load of preparation (or a really late game status) if you want that to be really useful.
It's like an awful tutor or a weird "draw a card" effect... it's better than draw if you have that creature you need in your graveyard, and worse if you don't.
Should it be a Shallow Grave or Unearth effect and the card would be a lot better IMO.
Yeah, the card, as it is, really has a lot of value, but at rare I'd expect it to be a little more pushed....
still, it's a nice card.
Disentomb is generally bad because because you end up card neutral, but you paid a mana, and there are times when Disentomb can't even bring anything back.
While placed on this card, though, you cannot judge it versus Disentomb. At the end of casting Kolaghan's Command you should be up a card. Kolaghan's Command also doesnt suffer from being a dead draw like Disentomb (for the most part.)
The playability of this card, as it stands now, hinges on how good shock is against the field. If shock isn't ok to cast, Kolaghan's Command won't be useful, with the caveat we don't see an increase in artifact power any time soon.
shock for 3 mana is hardly ok to cast in any meta.
but, yeah, if shock can actually kill an actually nice number of creatures, than it might be pretty decent.
Electrolyze, and Staggershock are both shock variants for 3 with upside and both were playable. As long as one of the modes (the shock or artifact destruction) is constantly good, the bonus modes and flexibility will make this a good card.
Private Mod Note
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Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
deals 2 damage to target creature or player
Is a Shock which costs R
no matter which module you choose, you're essentially paying 1RB for 2 mana worth of effects.
OK, you're just spending one card and Instant Speed discard is pretty powerful as it can be essentially a time walk in the right conditions. disentomb effects tend to never see play, artifact hate in a flexible card is nice to have and shock is a pretty subpar removal, but removal is still removal.
Should this card cost BR it would be really awesome.
for 1BR I'm not really sure...
I guess Atarka's and Ojutai's Command are still ahead in power.
This card is VERY likely to see lots of play in standard, at 1RB I guess it won't see much play in modern.
Lightning bolt is a good card that costs R
Healing Salve is an utterly horrible useless card that costs W
Lightning Helix is a good card that costs RW.
You cannot just ocmpare cards by analyzing the different effects and adding them together. Card advantage is HUGE in magic and this is a card that pretty much guarantees a 2-for-1.
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Skullcrack says
"opponents can't gain life" is worth 0.5 mana and 0.5 cards
"3 damage to each opponent" is worth 0.5 mana and 0.5 cards
Explore says
"put a land into play from your hand" is worth 2 mana and no cards.
Profit // Loss (the only example of the effect I remember being standard playable) says
"creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain reach until end of turn" is worth 2 mana and 0.5 cards.
Usually you'll be getting 1 card and 2.5 mana worth of value for 2 mana.
I'd say paying a mana for a card is similar value to saving 0.5 mana.
I think three mana for the versatility of this card is fair. One mana for each effect (two mana) and one extra mana for two of four options (two of which normally appear at sorcery speed) makes three mana the obvious cost. I agree that despite that, it seems underwhelming. Maybe changing "destroy artifact" to an exile effect or, as someone suggested, make the burn option more powerful (make it a bolt, forked bolt, etc.) would have made the card seem more appealing at 3CMC. And although I have yet to play the format, this looks good in Tiny Leaders.
A deceptively powerful card. I wished for something more flashy, as probably most people who are berating the card did, but I can't deny that this card offers quite a good deal, at least when compared to the other commands.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I think people are having issues with evaluating the card because they're looking at the abilities one at a time.
The card is really:
Shock/Raise Dead
Shock/Discard
Shock/Crush
Discard/Raise Dead
Discard/Crush
Raise Dead/Crush
That's 6 cards in 1, not 4.
I'm not saying it's better because "oh look! 6 cards!", I'm just offering a different measure.
Shock is a mediocre affect right now, I can't think of many places 2 damage will provide enough swing to really matter.
Raise Dead has better replacements at Midrange, and aggro would rather have a dude because they may do more. It takes time and mana that aggro cannot spare.
Discard makes this card obnoxious because it's so speculative based not just on your opponent's deck, but even their hand. Also makes this card neutral.
Crush is the best ability on here, it makes it worth a SB slot in a few cases, but now you get all up sides? Sick.
As pairs:
I wouldn't play this because I'd save it for the Raise Dead effect, so the Shock would rarely be relevant right when I get a good creature to Raise.
This is only useful after an aggro deck has failed to secure the kill. It costs too much to want to T3, so it has to wait. If you wait then 2 damage is likely irrelevant. It's better off as Mind Rot.
Looking a little better for SB now, this actually has a decent chance of affecting boards and offers a little extra reach to abuse since the path to victory should be a little clearer.
While it's +1 card essentially, I would not play this. I still think aggro would rather just have a dude (or burn, #2).
The best one in my opinion. +1 card, affects board, is not a play that makes slow progress (like #6). Nothing here feels like "maybe it'll work"; if you bard it in for artifact removal, this mode should be your top choice.
+1 card again, affects board state as well. The only variant with Raise dead that may be passable.
As matchups:... This section of my evaluation failed because the options are so different from each other that while one is good against a certain opponent, often the others do little extra. Discard is fairly universal, but because it's based on what deck you're against and what is even in their hand it's much too widely varied to accurately rate. Shock, while universal, is just not always relevant.
It's a side board card at best. Crush is the best thing printed on it. Play it for Crush/Discard, benefit occasionally from the other modes.
For those talking about "locking your opponent" out of a game with one single discard spell, that's just silly. Are you locking them out for one single turn? And only if they spent their whole hand? I can't think of many games where my opponent ran out of cards because he played them all; the games that did happen in they were playing aggro and early Shock/Discard is more relevant than trying for a one turn cute thing after they peter out. Additionally, at 3 mana, on color, and against aggro there is Anger/Drown. Board wipe them and forget this command even exists. Against control... as a BR deck, your opponent will always have more cards than you. If you have this in your hand, they have 2+ cards.
I think I set a poor tone last night when evaluating this card. I'd like to apologize for that and state my opinion with a clearer mind and a more level head.
I LOVE this card. It's everything a card like this should be. Fairly costed. Useful. Flexible. Even vaguely reminiscent of an old favorite of mine, Blightning. (yes, I know it's not fair to compare to blightning in terms of playing the card, but the effects at least evoke the nostalgia of the card for me, and that's a plus).
However, none of the above means it will "definitely" see play in Modern (I won't pretend to speak for Standard, and anything that can kill a morph is super playable in limited). I agree with some sentiments that it should be tested as a 1-of main due to potential 2-for-1s, but this is not a sideboard card. In modern you don't want to bring in 3-mana artifact hate, even if you get a generic effect of your choice tacked on. In matches where you need to destroy artifacts, doing so at an efficient rate is paramount.
I think this card shines most when you really want a Disentomb effect because this lets you run one that can still generate advantage in boardstates where a disentomb would just sit useless in your hand. As someone pointed out earlier, this is often better than drawing a card because you can plan for what you get back, and if you plan well, it's usually worth more than a card. And the interaction with Snapcaster Mage is pretty sweet, but time will tell if it's too clunky or not.
I plan on jamming this in many kitchen table and FNM decks. I doubt it'll show up at many modern GPs or PTQs.
tl;dr Good card doesn't always mean competitive card, and just because I'm saying it's not competitive enough in my competitive format of choice doesn't mean I don't LOVE this card. Because I do. I want 2 playsets.
Well, I'm not talking about Terminate, but I don't think a Smother version without the regen clause would have been far too pushed.
Anyway, it might be better as it is as it will be less likely to be a dead card (you can always shock them).
I mean, if it isn't printable at 3 CMC and as a rare...
- The discard effect is horrible, worse than mardu char discard, that is not even used.
- Destroying artifacts is irrelevant right now.
- Returning a single creature from the grave, even at instant, is not exciting.
- Shock for 3 mana? Not worth the cost even when added with one of the other effects.
The problem is that all of this effects are worth only 1 mana. The two better effects are worth only 2 manas together, while the other commands 2 best mode together pays for the whole mana investiment.
Disentomb is a really bad effect....
you spend mana just to swap a card in your hand for a card in your graveyard, it's hardly efficient, and as you can only grab creatures, it's not really versatile.
needs a load of preparation (or a really late game status) if you want that to be really useful.
It's like an awful tutor or a weird "draw a card" effect... it's better than draw if you have that creature you need in your graveyard, and worse if you don't.
Should it be a Shallow Grave or Unearth effect and the card would be a lot better IMO.
Yeah, the card, as it is, really has a lot of value, but at rare I'd expect it to be a little more pushed....
still, it's a nice card.
This just seems worse than Rakdos Charm for most common situations because it prevents graveyard use, it can be a blow out against token strategies (infinite or otherwise), and the artifact destruction is useful in some matches. When cheap answers are highly sought after, 3 mana is a lot more than 2.
Disentomb is generally bad because because you end up card neutral, but you paid a mana, and there are times when Disentomb can't even bring anything back.
While placed on this card, though, you cannot judge it versus Disentomb. At the end of casting Kolaghan's Command you should be up a card. Kolaghan's Command also doesnt suffer from being a dead draw like Disentomb (for the most part.)
The playability of this card, as it stands now, hinges on how good shock is against the field. If shock isn't ok to cast, Kolaghan's Command won't be useful, with the caveat we don't see an increase in artifact power any time soon.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
shock for 3 mana is hardly ok to cast in any meta.
but, yeah, if shock can actually kill an actually nice number of creatures, than it might be pretty decent.
#RealTalk though: you guys are way too critical of these new commands. Go back and look at the original command cycle. Cryptic was the only one that was oppressively powerful, and could probably be considered a mistake by R&D. This card is strong, yet fair, and the guaranteed 2 for 1 nature should slot right into Mardu and help push it back into the ring. Well done, WotC.
Edit: To all those saying that the Disentomb effect requires too much set-up, I'll tell you this - if your opponent hasn't killed your Rabblemaster, you were winning the game already anyways.
I agree with your analysis. This seems like the kind of card that is too expensive at 1BR, but too powerful at BR. Difficult to say, though, as the relevance of two of the modes (Crush + Shock) are highly dependent on the metagame.
I agree a split would be fantastic. But i only run 3 creatures, so am admittingly dismissing that piece, this on their end of turn into a Blightning or Cruel Ultimatum is dirty though.
Electrolyze, and Staggershock are both shock variants for 3 with upside and both were playable. As long as one of the modes (the shock or artifact destruction) is constantly good, the bonus modes and flexibility will make this a good card.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Blightning
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Toil // Trouble
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Dragonskull Summit
6 Swamp
5 Mountain
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Lightning bolt is a good card that costs R
Healing Salve is an utterly horrible useless card that costs W
Lightning Helix is a good card that costs RW.
You cannot just ocmpare cards by analyzing the different effects and adding them together. Card advantage is HUGE in magic and this is a card that pretty much guarantees a 2-for-1.
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Rules Advisor
So 2 of these effects is 2 mana + 2 cards.
Kolaghan's command is 3 mana and 1 card.
1 mana for a card is very strong.
Compare to Atarka's Command:
Skullcrack says
"opponents can't gain life" is worth 0.5 mana and 0.5 cards
"3 damage to each opponent" is worth 0.5 mana and 0.5 cards
Explore says
"put a land into play from your hand" is worth 2 mana and no cards.
Profit // Loss (the only example of the effect I remember being standard playable) says
"creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain reach until end of turn" is worth 2 mana and 0.5 cards.
Usually you'll be getting 1 card and 2.5 mana worth of value for 2 mana.
I'd say paying a mana for a card is similar value to saving 0.5 mana.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
The card is really:
I'm not saying it's better because "oh look! 6 cards!", I'm just offering a different measure.
Shock is a mediocre affect right now, I can't think of many places 2 damage will provide enough swing to really matter.
Raise Dead has better replacements at Midrange, and aggro would rather have a dude because they may do more. It takes time and mana that aggro cannot spare.
Discard makes this card obnoxious because it's so speculative based not just on your opponent's deck, but even their hand. Also makes this card neutral.
Crush is the best ability on here, it makes it worth a SB slot in a few cases, but now you get all up sides? Sick.
As pairs:
As matchups:... This section of my evaluation failed because the options are so different from each other that while one is good against a certain opponent, often the others do little extra. Discard is fairly universal, but because it's based on what deck you're against and what is even in their hand it's much too widely varied to accurately rate. Shock, while universal, is just not always relevant.
It's a side board card at best. Crush is the best thing printed on it. Play it for Crush/Discard, benefit occasionally from the other modes.
For those talking about "locking your opponent" out of a game with one single discard spell, that's just silly. Are you locking them out for one single turn? And only if they spent their whole hand? I can't think of many games where my opponent ran out of cards because he played them all; the games that did happen in they were playing aggro and early Shock/Discard is more relevant than trying for a one turn cute thing after they peter out. Additionally, at 3 mana, on color, and against aggro there is Anger/Drown. Board wipe them and forget this command even exists. Against control... as a BR deck, your opponent will always have more cards than you. If you have this in your hand, they have 2+ cards.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I LOVE this card. It's everything a card like this should be. Fairly costed. Useful. Flexible. Even vaguely reminiscent of an old favorite of mine, Blightning. (yes, I know it's not fair to compare to blightning in terms of playing the card, but the effects at least evoke the nostalgia of the card for me, and that's a plus).
However, none of the above means it will "definitely" see play in Modern (I won't pretend to speak for Standard, and anything that can kill a morph is super playable in limited). I agree with some sentiments that it should be tested as a 1-of main due to potential 2-for-1s, but this is not a sideboard card. In modern you don't want to bring in 3-mana artifact hate, even if you get a generic effect of your choice tacked on. In matches where you need to destroy artifacts, doing so at an efficient rate is paramount.
I think this card shines most when you really want a Disentomb effect because this lets you run one that can still generate advantage in boardstates where a disentomb would just sit useless in your hand. As someone pointed out earlier, this is often better than drawing a card because you can plan for what you get back, and if you plan well, it's usually worth more than a card. And the interaction with Snapcaster Mage is pretty sweet, but time will tell if it's too clunky or not.
I plan on jamming this in many kitchen table and FNM decks. I doubt it'll show up at many modern GPs or PTQs.
tl;dr Good card doesn't always mean competitive card, and just because I'm saying it's not competitive enough in my competitive format of choice doesn't mean I don't LOVE this card. Because I do. I want 2 playsets.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios