Flavor-wise it makes sense to have both of her sides on the field. They are both from different times, although possibly not much of a time difference, and as such are separate physical being who can meet/be summoned to the battlefield.
I trigger Liliana and flip her to Planeswalker. Now I can play another Liliana-Legendary Creature? That seems like a design failure. Expecting rules clarification.
the most interesting fact is that if you play a liliana, then another liliana, one of those will die due to legend rule, then, the other one gets exiled and is transformed into a planeswalker.
Double faced cards are also completely different cards.
I'm not sure that's technically correct...
Legendary rule cares about two things, if either one is missing than the permanents can co-exist:
1. Both permanents need the Legendary Supertype.
2. Both permanents need to share the exact same name.
The first ruling on Elbrus and Withengar is that "Elbrus, the Binding Blade" is not the same name as "Withengar Unbound" so if you control the one, you can control the other. Which means they might meet Item 1, but they don't meet item 2.
Even if both sides of the Creature/Walker DF card had the exact same name, Planeswalkers are not legendary, so they wouldn't fly afoul of Item 1 if standing next to an unflipped creature version of them.
For those worried about flavour fails on summoning two legendary creatures to the field, a) Mirror Gallery and b) We don't want to be like Hearthstone who only has one copy of each legend per deck. Because that would suck in magic.
That was actually the earliest version of Legend rule (in Legends) -- any legendary card was automatically restricted to one per deck. It didn't last long.
I think I'd like the transform walkers a lot more if they didn't mean we're not getting a LotV reprint, after having her tragically torn from our hands with M15.
Well they did print her for a GP I think? Also instead of causing players to sac a creature/permanents she ressurects your stuff from grave which can be useful if your running Rakdos colours. Go never ending lightning bolts!
Yeah, they did reprint her as a GP promo, although that's not really comparable to being reprinted in a drafted, Standard legal set. In fact, I'm pretty sure I made a post at the time of that announcement, praying that Wizard's didn't think that making her a GP Promo somehow canceled out removing her from M15 at the last minute. Apparently they did. As for this version of her, I agree that she's playable, and even rather powerful. But she's still not nearly as good as LotV, who still desperately needs a reprint for Modern's sake.
Lilly as a GP promo isn't terribe and will likely only effect foil prices but may not even dent the prices that much. If she had a alternate art she would go for a fortune. That being said I hate this flip walker nonsense. I get it flavor wise it is a super win but these are just bad. They would have to be over the top broken in planes walker form for anyone to want to play them. This lilly is super conditional and would litterally need its own niche deck to operate effectively in any of the eternal formats. I don't play tiny leaders and I doubt her impact in edh. The mechanics of origins will likely allow for them to be standard playable or even power houses. They will still be unplayable out of standard. I would want them only for collection purposes but no other reason outside of that. I think there will be plenty decks that will not run these walkers. Wizards would have to make the others completely busted to make them playable. After all the magic goodness lately I didnt think wizards would print dead card walkers. I know fan boys will jump all over this post but seriously, I would love to hear you justify conditional walkers that are more vulnerable to removal and require a trigger to even be used.
Liliana of the Veil is not a GP promo she is coming back as PTQ promo for those that show up for the PTQ after qualifying for it in a PPTQ. She will remain the PTQ promo for the next 3 PTQ seasons so for quite a while...
I personally love DFCs. DFC walkers are just a good thing, for so many reasons. I do think there will be other non planeswalker DFCs in origins, not related to the planeswalkers, but to the player. I'm actually worried that Lilliana is too easy to flip... but I'm thinking the others aren't as easy to flip, and that's why she was chosen as the Origins preview card.
Best case scenario is that you have a sac creature like Sakura-tribe elder or Mogg Fanatic when Liliana comes into play. Even if you sacrifice the creature without passing priority, they still have a chance to blow up the planeswalker by casting a removal spell in response. Hell, even if they transformed just by coming into play removal still works like a permission spell.
Maybe Jace or Nissa are given hexproof although that will be a little unfair to the others. Anyway, the most prominent feature of this planeswalkers is that now they die to Swords, Bolts, Edicts, Wraths, etc. Utterly unimpressed.
Traditional Planeswalkers already "dies" to bolt. Also, Planeswalkers dies to ataking creatures too. Planeswalkers are not that resilient to begin with.
Best case scenario is that you have a sac creature like Sakura-tribe elder or Mogg Fanatic when Liliana comes into play. Even if you sacrifice the creature without passing priority, they still have a chance to blow up the planeswalker by casting a removal spell in response.
Best case scenario you wait they aim their removal to your Liliana and then you sac your criter in response so they lose their spell.
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery card is revealed this way, exile Jace, Delver of Mind Sculpting, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control.
If you do, draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
1/1
Transformed (obviously):
3 Loyalty
+2: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card on the bottom of that player's library.
0: Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
-1: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
-12: Exile all cards from target player's library, then that player shuffles his or her hand into his or her library.
This is the way they should have done Planeswalkers for EDH/Commander(in the last commander product), by having them start as creatures. Not goofy type lines that allow only certain Planeswalkers to be Commanders.
This is the way they should have done Planeswalkers for EDH/Commander(in the last commander product), by having them start as creatures. Not goofy type lines that allow only certain Planeswalkers to be Commanders.
I think you are right, but apparently double faced cards are expensive/complicated to print, so they wouldn't do it for just a few cards. Since origins will likely have many of such cards, they are willing to go through the print process again.
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Feel free to tell me yours!
This is the way they should have done Planeswalkers for EDH/Commander(in the last commander product), by having them start as creatures. Not goofy type lines that allow only certain Planeswalkers to be Commanders.
I think you are right, but apparently double faced cards are expensive/complicated to print, so they wouldn't do it for just a few cards. Since origins will likely have many of such cards, they are willing to go through the print process again.
Also, for some of those planeswalkers, like Freyalise, we never ever met them pre-spark.
Double faced cards are also completely different cards.
I'm not sure that's technically correct...
Legendary rule cares about two things, if either one is missing than the permanents can co-exist:
1. Both permanents need the Legendary Supertype.
2. Both permanents need to share the exact same name.
You said that the faces of a DFC are completely different cards. I don't think that's correct from a technical perspective. It's one single card even if it transforms.
If we want to get technical I'm talking about two separate permanents. Either two separate physical cards, one physical card and one token permanent representing a card, or a physical copy of one of these cards with a physical copy of a clone effect as the other.
In the case of two cards, as far as the game is concerned a copy of Withengar Unbound and Elbrus, the Binding Blade only share the fact that they are, indeed, cards in common. They do not share a name, type, subtype, mana cost, color identity, or effect set. Which is what matters when we talk about the Legend Rule (this roughly applies to the Flip Cards from Kamigawa block too, those retain their mana cost when flipped, but I digress).
I trigger Liliana and flip her to Planeswalker. Now I can play another Liliana-Legendary Creature? That seems like a design failure. Expecting rules clarification.
the most interesting fact is that if you play a liliana, then another liliana, one of those will die due to legend rule, then, the other one gets exiled and is transformed into a planeswalker.
think about weird design... hah
And then you can -3 the necromancer to get back the other lili creature! With a sac outlet in play this is an infinite death loop.
I trigger Liliana and flip her to Planeswalker. Now I can play another Liliana-Legendary Creature? That seems like a design failure. Expecting rules clarification.
the most interesting fact is that if you play a liliana, then another liliana, one of those will die due to legend rule, then, the other one gets exiled and is transformed into a planeswalker.
think about weird design... hah
And then you can -3 the necromancer to get back the other lili creature! With a sac outlet in play this is an infinite death loop.
That might have something to do with the "nonlegendary" aspect of the minus ability.
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
I'm just gonna sit here and hope for a legendary werewolf.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I hate double sided cards.. Just thought I'd put that out there. This set has nice planeswalkers, but all double sided, so I'll never use them.. I understand I may be unusual in this respect, but I feel strongly about it.
It also has a lot of junk cards, things which are seeing reprinting which should've ended a decade ago.. Shivan Dragon, Nightmare both sit at Rare, and who uses them..? These cards just seem like a waste to me. Disappointed with the set so far...
I think I'll skip this set.
Just so you know quite a few of the "junk" reprints you mentions are only in the sample decks not the actual boosters, that is why their set numbers are actually higher then the total number of cards in the set.
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the most interesting fact is that if you play a liliana, then another liliana, one of those will die due to legend rule, then, the other one gets exiled and is transformed into a planeswalker.
think about weird design... hah
1. Both permanents need the Legendary Supertype.
2. Both permanents need to share the exact same name.
The first ruling on Elbrus and Withengar is that "Elbrus, the Binding Blade" is not the same name as "Withengar Unbound" so if you control the one, you can control the other. Which means they might meet Item 1, but they don't meet item 2.
Even if both sides of the Creature/Walker DF card had the exact same name, Planeswalkers are not legendary, so they wouldn't fly afoul of Item 1 if standing next to an unflipped creature version of them.
That was actually the earliest version of Legend rule (in Legends) -- any legendary card was automatically restricted to one per deck. It didn't last long.
Yeah, they did reprint her as a GP promo, although that's not really comparable to being reprinted in a drafted, Standard legal set. In fact, I'm pretty sure I made a post at the time of that announcement, praying that Wizard's didn't think that making her a GP Promo somehow canceled out removing her from M15 at the last minute. Apparently they did. As for this version of her, I agree that she's playable, and even rather powerful. But she's still not nearly as good as LotV, who still desperately needs a reprint for Modern's sake.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Best case scenario is that you have a sac creature like Sakura-tribe elder or Mogg Fanatic when Liliana comes into play. Even if you sacrifice the creature without passing priority, they still have a chance to blow up the planeswalker by casting a removal spell in response. Hell, even if they transformed just by coming into play removal still works like a permission spell.
Maybe Jace or Nissa are given hexproof although that will be a little unfair to the others. Anyway, the most prominent feature of this planeswalkers is that now they die to Swords, Bolts, Edicts, Wraths, etc. Utterly unimpressed.
Best case scenario you wait they aim their removal to your Liliana and then you sac your criter in response so they lose their spell.
Jace, Delver of Mind Sculpting (U)
Legendary Creature- Human Wizard
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery card is revealed this way, exile Jace, Delver of Mind Sculpting, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control.
If you do, draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
1/1
Transformed (obviously):
3 Loyalty
+2: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card on the bottom of that player's library.
0: Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
-1: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
-12: Exile all cards from target player's library, then that player shuffles his or her hand into his or her library.
And above all, there is Lord Bolas and Lord Bolas.
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Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I think you are right, but apparently double faced cards are expensive/complicated to print, so they wouldn't do it for just a few cards. Since origins will likely have many of such cards, they are willing to go through the print process again.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Also, for some of those planeswalkers, like Freyalise, we never ever met them pre-spark.
If we want to get technical I'm talking about two separate permanents. Either two separate physical cards, one physical card and one token permanent representing a card, or a physical copy of one of these cards with a physical copy of a clone effect as the other.
In the case of two cards, as far as the game is concerned a copy of Withengar Unbound and Elbrus, the Binding Blade only share the fact that they are, indeed, cards in common. They do not share a name, type, subtype, mana cost, color identity, or effect set. Which is what matters when we talk about the Legend Rule (this roughly applies to the Flip Cards from Kamigawa block too, those retain their mana cost when flipped, but I digress).
And then you can -3 the necromancer to get back the other lili creature! With a sac outlet in play this is an infinite death loop.
That might have something to do with the "nonlegendary" aspect of the minus ability.
Feel free to tell me yours!
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Just so you know quite a few of the "junk" reprints you mentions are only in the sample decks not the actual boosters, that is why their set numbers are actually higher then the total number of cards in the set.